Yes, I agree with palimpsest on the refrigerator. If you like the small one, just put in a pantry pullout or broom pullout that a future owner can remove to put in a bigger fridge if they want one.

I have more space than you, although it's still a small kitchen compared to most here, but even though I could squeeze in up to a 33" fridge easily enough, I prefer the options available on the some of the smaller ones and I don't store that much food. So my plan is to put a slim storage compartment to fill the extra space and go 24".

One thing to pay attention to is the energy consumption. While some smaller fridges are terrifically conservative, some are amazing hogs in comparison to models that are much larger. Don't go by the energy star symbol, but the actual estimated use (energy star rated is kind of a boondoggle since it only compares fridges within a particular class).

I was just reading about these swing out pantry kits. You can get them from rev a shelf. I wonder if they work for one door pantry? If so, you might be able to fit one in.

Really good storage like this might help sell your condo when it comes time.

Here's a pic.

Here is a link that might be useful: swing out pantry

If you haven't looked at the GE 24" fridge in person, definitely do so---we did and were not impressed. It felt like a big version of a dorm fridge---freezer drawers are plastic tubs, etc. Also looked at the Blomberg and the Fagor and didn't love either of those, either. The only skinny fridges that really seemed well-made were way out of our budget, sadly (Liebherr and SubZero). It was less about the size than the construction/design of the space. Definitely something you need to test out in person before buying.

On the KA fridge, either I am totally misremembering or it's been discontinued---I could have sworn we looked at a counter-depth 33" fridge they made but there's no sign of it anywhere, so maybe I'm imagining it! It was two or three years ago, though. Ah, well. But if you can do standard-depth and be just as happy, you might as well save the $$ anyway, and it opens a lot more options.

I like Buehl's 3a.. It gives you the most prep space.

In case you need more convincing....

We own the 36" CD KA fridge for our family of four and the *only* time it isn't large enough for us is at the holidays. And even then, it's not a problem because our garage is cold enough for us to store things like pies and such for the brief period of time when we need extra space.

We also live in a 3-bedroom/den/bonus room house, not a one-bedroom condo. ;-)

We considered the 33" CD KA but went up to the 36" because we have teen boys. We need the fridge space (we buy 3 gallons of milk at a time). Otherwise, the 33" CD KA would have worked for us. So unless you own 32 bottles of condiments that require refrigeration (okay, that's a slight an exaggeration ;-) ), I really don't think you or future buyers (singles or couples without kids, right?) will need more than, or even expect more than, a 30" fridge in a small kitchen in a one-bedroom condo.

Also, unless I've missed something, I think the counter on that 42.5" tall half-wall will intrude into the kitchen 1" to 1-1/2" further than the wall because of the counter overhang (I'm referring to your plan and Buehl's plan #1). Could become a funny bone bang-up on a regular basis. Or it might be a non-issue for you but I'd hate to see you spend your remodeling dollars and find out the sink location doesn't work for you.

If it's a concern, here's an idea (I'm referring to Buehl's plan #1 above). Use a 30" sink cabinet instead of a 27", change the 18" cab to a 15" to accommodate the larger sink base, and cheat the sink as far to the right in the cabinet as possible. You'll only gain a few inches but those inches could make a difference in function.

I have a small space; my kitchen kept the same footprint; the walls remained "as is". I expanded from the inside.

I did see "the walls are as is" in your post. I saw the column. Please tell me what is inside the column. The structure built up around it may be far larger than necessary. Its dimensions can be reduced, if it's anything like the column that I had in my kitchen. I spoke to others in the building to find out what was underneath the surface drywall. I found out what someone had already done, to modify it, in their condo. They sunk a spice rack into it. it was safe to poke a bit into the column. Long story short: I gained 5 inches inside my kitchen after I rebuilt the "chase" that was this column.

Going back to basic principles, SugarCookie, tell me whether the doorway to the Dining area can be moved over a bit, to center it. If not, tell me why.

A galley (two straight lines) is efficient. When doorways are in the middle, not touching the corner, a galley kitchen is even more efficient.

My kitchen has a column in the corner, and is smaller than yours in both directions (X by Y) of the footprint. Yet I have more storage, more counter, more of everything. Hope this makes you curious and eager, not upset.

Did you already know about the option to have internal drawers? It is easy to understand?

hth

Here is a link that might be useful: Inexpensive Kitchen Redesign Suggestions

Thanks so much Everyone, again. I'll address your comments in the next post. Be assured I have read, reread, and reread again your posts. Still thinking, too. :)

After blfenton's post about her kitchen, I asked DH what he thought about all refrigerator drawers to have more counter. He said "yeah" as in "yeah, duh we should do that". I was pretty shocked, because he is pretty "whatever is fine" about everything.

So, here is the latest "weird" kitchen. The only refrigerator drawers that seem like they are affordable are the kitchenaid ones. I have read most of the drawer threads here, I think/hope.

What is needed in the way of cabinets? Is it like a dishwasher in that respect?

Note: an undercounter oven could go in the 30" base, and a speed oven could go in the 24" mw base. ;)

Well, take a look, please. :)

I saw earlier in this thread that honeysucklevine posted around the same time as blfenton, asking three questions (on Thursday afternoon).

blfenton's post was about having whatever you want to have. This is always true. Nothing is "weird" if you like it like that. Be fine with it. Be good to yourself. Let yourself have it the way you like it. It was once written: Thou Shalt Not Should on Thyself. It's still true today.

honeysucklevine asked about practicalities. One of the 3 questions has been answered. It was about the exhaust ducting. The other two questions are:
"....
What do the other people in your condo do to update kitchens with this shape?
" and
".... Is closing up the half-wall an option or moving doors in a wall? (Because it looks like you can put a regular fridge there if you make the cabinets deeper, but you would have to move a door.)
"

This question is similar to my question about the doorway. You have a drywall person on hand who can confirm that the doorway is moveable.

What honeysucklevine is getting at is that the distance from countertop front edge to the wall behind the cabinets is " Deeper Cabinets" which give you a lot more storage, and you get a better starting point for a typical fridge depth. Even if you get a 24" fridge, it's still a better starting point to have your doorway moved over and have a larger counter depth. Buying a more typical fridge saves you money on the fridge. This also gives you a bigger counter and you get more storage under the counter.

What your small space kitchen has too much of is aisle. Your passageway is huge, so huge I would call it a dance floor, not an aisle.

With a deeper counter you remove some of your aisle and you get more of all the other things you have been hoping for.

Imagine you had a doorway already shifted over by 6" or a foot or 18". Then, in planning the "ideal" floorplan, would you ever have any reason to shift it over to one side? I think not.

So, ultimately, your not redrawing the design to include a re-positioned doorway has been the biggest flaw that "makes it worse". This is the answer you have been asking for when you asked if you have been "making it worse".

The proposed new plan above includes two 24" ref/frz drawer units. You will be underwhelmed when you go see how much they hold. And how much they cost. A single 36" unit is better. A single 36" all-fridge is even better. Buying two units of any refrigeration appliance means you have twice the wall insulation in the middle of the run. A ref/frz unit means you have a wall insulating the two compartments from each other. So, an all-fridge has one less wall thickness. All these walls remove space. Then, the leftover space is so small that it presents the same packing optimization problem that you find in small drawers or in side by side ref/frz i.e. (the width is not enough to let you pack things well, and sometimes it won't even be wide enough for a single article).

I f you put into your plan that you will have one really deep counter, then you can have a huge amount of counter behind the range or behind the sink. The range could have controls in front, not the kind with the little wall control panel sticking up.

I posted yesterday about getting rid of the upright fridge. Link below.

All these drawer refrigeration appliances have short glides not long, so they work well under counters that are not "deep" in the dimension measured from front to back wall. Another detail to keep in mind. No, you don't need cabinets to enclose drawer fridges.

Hth.

Here is a link that might be useful: ... a 'I'm so glad I changed this' feature

buehl: Thank you so much for the additional layouts. You are incredibly generous with your time and talent.

honeysucklevine: I think you are the organization 411 master! My sense is that you are making sure I don't miss an opportunity or just plain trip, so thank you.

florantha: thanks for the link to that beautiful condo. Yes, additional pictures always help me visualize things and stimulate new questions.

artemis78: you are not mistaken, because lisa_a mentions the fridge a couple posts down! It must have been discontinued. I also came across your 24" fridge thread; what did you end up deciding? Thanks for the heads up about the GE, too.

cluelessincolorado: open shelving temporarily in place of the dishwasher is a great idea!

lisa_a: thanks for the real-world input about the fridge, and I am finally convinced. :)

palimpsest and writer'sblock: thanks again for joining in. Your thoughtful comments are always appreciated. Thanks for pointing out the energy consumption info, too. More details to watch out for....

davidro1: lots (!) of good questions. I'm aware of the things you posted, thanks, but I need to reread over the thread you linked to. Maybe we shouldn't debate the cabinet choice here, though. And curious, not upset. :) By "column", did you mean the slashed area in the top left area? That's the (small) master bedroom closet. Do you think most condo associations would approve of "carving" into a wall? I'm admittedly nervous about any construction choices, so you need to convince me about those things. How do you like your Ariston (?) refrigerator drawer?

Hi, SugarCookie, late back seeing your question, but regarding Buehl #2, yes, I'm pretty sure I'd be quite happy without a second sink on that side. I plumbed my work island to install a prep sink a little later on, but it's still sitting on a shelf in the basement because I just don't miss it.

I notice you do seem to be drawn to the left side, I'm guessing a basic personal reaction to actually experiencing the space? If prep, cooking, and cleanup all just have to be in that one area, I'd suggest making the entire back wall storage, with no prep counter, just a minimal landing spot for fridge, MW, dishes in transit, etc. Floor-to-ceiling. Then perhaps you could without some of the in-your-face wall cabinets at you work area to make it feel open and spacious, and just particularly nice to be at.

As for the drawers, you do know that it's possible to buy a fully integrated liebherr 24" for the cost of two of those kitchenaid drawer banks? For example, the 24" integrated fridge/freezer liebherr at ajmadison is $2500 w/icemaker, while the kitchenaid drawers are $1583 each.

I think you are designing yourself into a corner with the all drawer fridge freezer concept. Its not forgiving of failure or disappointment with a particular model at all.

It puts me in mind of these: these were a Great Idea, and I know two families that had this. One had a separate freezer elsewhere because the freezer didn't stay cold enough. The other family used it like cabinetry and had a regular upright sitting in the eating area.

I understand what you are trying to do, just like I understand what GE was driving at in 1956...but replacement of a simple thing like a fridge turns from selection of several options to one option, or none, without a renovation.

davidro1: Bah, sorry! I forgot to answer about the doorway. Yes that's flexible because it's a half-wall on either side. (I think the drawing was off on the right because of prior layout closing up the half-wall to full.)

I answered honeysucklevine's second two questions in the next post.

What I meant about blfenton's post was the description of her kitchen: all that counterspace!!!

Thanks for the information about the drawers and insulation, etc. But I think we need the freezer space because of the way we store leftovers and bulk items. I agree about the larger drawer; true of cabinets/drawers too.

writersblock: um, but then I would only have 24" of drawer, or am I being dense? :(

palimpsest: okay, you are once again the voice of reason. You're right about designing into a corner. :( I just loved all that counter....

>writersblock: um, but then I would only have 24" of drawer, or am I being dense? :(

No, sorry for the confusion. I mean a regular normal type integrated liebherr refrigerator, not drawers. I'm pretty confused because I thought earlier in this thread you said appliance prices were a significant concern, but those fridge drawers are really pricy.

writersblock: lol, you know what? I went to look it up at AJ Madison, and it's already in my shopping cart!!! I completely forgot about that model. When I think Liebherr, I think $5,000.

Actually, I should apologize for the fridge/appliance confusion. It's been back and forth so much. I guess DH seemed to think the drawers were worth it.

So since I never really contemplated a built-in, does that gain anything in this layout? Obviously it is perfect in pamplisest's kitchen, or rather outside the kitchen.

rosie: I'm not ignoring your post... still thinking about what you wrote. :)

If you are looking at different options, what about corner range?

I have fridge drawers and they hold a lot more than a dorm fridge did in the same space. Still, they have limitations, and I'd be careful about using them as an only fridge -- not to mention that the cost of a pair could get you a built-in or a really nice smaller fridge. And I do think you'd be designing into a corner.

I'm thinking Buehl's plan 3 might be my favorite right now, mainly because it eliminates a boxed in sink and leaves some room beside the cooktop. I think I might flip the micro drawer and the drawer base, depending on which you think you might have open more and how much the narrow passage being impeded then would be a factor.

honeysucklevine: funny you should mention that... this is was in my idea folder.

In your first reply to me, you said "... ceiling height is 8 feet; it's a dropped ceiling with a dome-shaped fluorescent light...." but you didn't say whether the building is concrete structure or wood structure.

You can grab a few more inches by rebuilding the BR closet wall, thinner.

SugarCookie you are allowed to move your walls entirely. Refining that statement more will be possible when you say whether the building is concrete structure or wood structure. This is because one has pillars and the other has some loadbearing walls.

You could move your plumbing drains if you get a Master Plumber to do it; plumbing drains are common property (association) not individual property. You can move your other plumbing too. That is called supply lines.

You are allowed to upgrade your electrical too. For that you may need a licensed electrician.

I haven't found yet whether you already explained if you must keep an existing range or whether you simply want to buy a range, just because. Induction cooktops have come down in price so much now that it is worthwhile to consider a wall oven and a separate cooktop, an induction one.

The thread linked to below has a new post today showing a steam oven. People love them. They are tiny. 15"h, less than 24"w, fits into the same space as a drawer in a base cabinet. Only 22"d. It IS true they cost more than the lowest cost wall ovens, but I get the impression you will buy something if you feel it's worth it. I haven't bought one yet.

Here is a link that might be useful: Counter Top Cooking (Toaster Oven) and Half Ovens

davidro: Hi again. I'm sorry this thread has become so convoluted. It's hard to follow, and hard to answer now.

The walls are wood structure.

All your examples are true, they just cost money and time and stress. I just wasn't sure about the walls, so thanks for clearing that up.

Anyway, a portion of this thread is about the range. In my original layout, the ONLY oven is a Miele Speed Oven, which is a convection/microwave, if you aren't familiar, but you likely are. They are small like the steam oven.

That WAS the big splurge appliance. ;)

Anyway, the consensus is that we can do that IF we have 30" space that can convert to standard oven IF we move. Or it would fit in a 24" microwave cabinet as well.

Yes, I read your Counter Top Cooking thread! :)

I wrote earlier in this thread that we use our counter top convection oven ALL THE TIME! We never use the range oven. We made a turkey breast at Thanksgiving, and a small rib roast at Christmas.

My friend remodeled her kitchen 2 years ago. She never uses her brand new convection oven because she doesn't want to wait for it to preheat or listen to the fan cooling down after. She uses the toaster oven instead.

I know us well enough that we would do exactly the same if we get a full-size range or standard-size oven. Out would come the little convection oven, hogging up counterspace.

Scattered in the thread are references to the "speed oven", but it's hard to pick them out since the thread is so long now. Thanks for sticking with it, and I apologize for missing your questions sometimes.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/appl/msg0322073311441.html
Miele steam oven/convection oven, or others

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/appl/msg061825095588.html
Miele Chef Speed Oven Functionality

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/appl/msg1121284214037.html
Interior size of Gaggenau Combi-Steam

Your second to last paragraph above says you "would do exactly the same" but then it seems to contradict the previous paragraph which it refers to.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/appl/msg0223235314646.html

Searching ajmadison for convection microwaves, I find the most available as over-the-range convection microwaves (24), and there are an equal amount of countertop convection microwaves and built in convection microwaves (12).

Not the best picture, but a similar situation.

Here is a link that might be useful: corner range

I must have missed something. Why are you considering a corner range? Unless you have a magical kitchen stretcher tool (and if you do, please lend it to me ;-)), I don't think you have the room for a corner range. To quote Kelly Morisseau, CMKBD and blogger at Kelly's Kitchen Sync, "a 30" cooktop takes approximately 45-48" of wall space both ways." That does not include cabinets on either side, nor does it include the spacers you'd need to insert between range and cabinets.

I completely understand the pull of worrying a plan to death, thinking that the next creative idea will be the "perfect" plan that defies space limitations (who does that? not me! ha) but there comes a time when all your efforts do nothing more than make you crazy (or in my case, crazier) and muddle the picture so much that you can't make a decision to save your life. You had a good plan to start with and you've received great suggestions and lay-out ideas to improve upon it. It might be time to (gasp!) make some decisions and move forward (double gasp!).

But hey, why listen to me? I'm still messing around with my plan, thinking the next idea will solve all my troubles! LOL

Good luck!

Here is a link that might be useful: A reader asks: A cooktop or range in the corner?

I also want to caution you to check your condo association rules rather than to take the word of anyone here for anything you can or cannot do. What may be true most of the time is not necessarily true in your place and there can be good reasons why there are limitations that you could be unaware of -- until you run into a costly problem. Better safe than sorry.

Hi, first, I realize this will probably not be feasible due to support walls and condo restrictions. However, if it could be pulled off and you could add 18" to the one end you could easily fit a 30" frig, 30" sink and a 30" range plus have a little seating area on other side.

http://s1004.photobucket.com/albums/af170/jterrilynn/?action=view&current=condokitchenplan002.jpg"; target="_blank">

I can't find how a corner range came into the picture, but a corner cooktop can be accomplished in less space than a corner range (if it is in a separate location from the oven of course) --since there is no "front" to a cooktop that you need to open. (sorry for stating the obvious)

I have seen this done three ways.

1) a conventional cookop set on an angle in a regular 90-degree corner. (Issues with reach, possibly)

2) a conventional cooktop that runs parallel to one counter run and is mostly fronting that part of the counter run but part of it tucks past the turn in the counter. This works best in a left corner if you are left handed and vice versa.

3) Two burner units (like Meile or Gaggenau) are used and one faces out on one counter run, one faces out on the other counter run right around the corner.

It may seem a little awkward to have burners that are not near the front edge of the counter but its like having 3 back burners maybe.

Conversely though, my parents' island cooktop was almost as close to the back of the island as the front, and we cooked on the back burners from the other side on some occasions (making gravy comes to mind) --but by current concepts this is considered dangerous. To us, it was like having No back burners.

Haha- this reminds me of all the back-and-forth planning on our kitchen reno! Microwave drawers! 2 under cabinet fridges/freezers! Speed ovens! Do we *really* need a sink? What about a dish drawer UNDER a micro-drawer!!! etc. etc.

We have the same kitchen dimensions as you do and decided to keep the majority of the former layout. Just updated everything. We went from a 27" fridge to the 24" stainless LG fridge (love), a standard range, standard 24" dishwasher, and had to shrink the sink to fit in at 21" cabinet. End of the world? Nope. Don't stress yourself out too much. It's so easy to over-think this stuff! Good luck!

I second what lascatx wrote. Double check things. Internet people are not on premises.

In a wood structure, some walls are load bearing, and some are not. Since your studs are wood, the building is wood too. In concrete buildings, walls aren't built with wood studs.

The building being a wood structure means you have joists overhead and underfoot, not concrete slab floors and ceilings. Do you know which way the joists run?

A few questions - thank you!
1)Do you WANT to move walls regardless of efficacy of use?
2)Are you ever going to use your DW?
3)Are you ever going to use a conventional oven?
4)Would you rather spend money on a speed oven or a smaller refrigerator?
5)Do you WANT/REQUIRE the half wall on the sink side and if so, are you going to use it with stools or as a shallow pass through to the dining room?
Regardless, this is a very meat and potatoes variation of your 1st design.

Hi me again, I too am interested in some of clueless's questions for you. I would also like to add one, do you plan on doing a lot of entertaining? If so my amateur drawing (if feasible) has a lot of merits toward entertaining. A few of the 18" that brings the kitchen out could be used to frame that side of the refrigerator in for a built-in look. Refrigerators on the end beginning of small kitchens are handy because it keeps people out of your bubble. This brings us down to a 15" cabinet on that side, just enough for a few bottled beverages. The top cabinet over the 15" base could be short and line up with the upper frig cab, this will leave you room for an under cabinet stemmed glass rack with a few stemmed highball, rocks and wine glasses and it's close to frig for ice and water or mixers. So now you have a small beverage or cocktail area near dining which frees up the little counter on other side as a buffet. Add an oval dining table and your good to go for parties.

Wow, I think this thread is about to go to "150" heaven. Thanks so much everyone; I'm in awe of all the help.

* We are NOT seriously considering a corner range (unless someone has a flash of brilliance); honeysucklevine and I were just bouncing ideas.

* rosie posted earlier about my favoring the left side of the kitchen. I moved the cooktop because I don't like to carry pasta across the aisle to drain. But am I better off over all having the stove and refrigerator swapped, as in buehl's layout #2?

davidro1: the initial debate was speed oven instead of full-size oven. So I meant that we would use the speed oven (in lieu of counter top oven) but not use a full-size oven. Hope that makes sense now! Oh and the joists run left to right... I think... what are you thinking?!

lisa_a: Worrying a plan to death? Am I doing that? ;) Yes, pretty soon I have to move forward... even if you won't. ;) Thanks for chiming in. :)

jterrilyn: Hi! I love your kitchen by the way. Those butter yellow cabinets are great! :) That's an interesting layout... but I'm not so sure if we'll have room left in our tiny dining room! I wonder if I should put the stove back on the right, though.... Oh and your second post: no, we don't really entertain. This is a tiny condo. We don't even have all the lovely glassware you mention; we are boring. ;)

palimpsest: #2 sounds interesting, but I'm not seriously contemplating this idea unless someone has a a Eureka! moment. :) thank you though. btw, I'm sorry if I mistyped your name in places. :(

lascatx: thanks for your feedback on the fridge drawers and condo rules. The association is very PICKY here, so I would not do anything without approval!

xand83: that is too funny! okay that LG fridge is prolly the same as davidro1's, so I will look at that one in person somewhere. Overthink things? That is SO not me. ;)

cluelessincolorado: you're back! :) wow, thanks for the pics! 1) No, I don't WANT to move walls. Even moving the half-wall out toward the dining area makes it too tight there. 2) Probably not, but if we buy one, I'll use to justify the expense. I still think we need to have the slot, so your previous idea about open shelves is really good. 3) We won't bother using a big oven, so that's why a speed oven makes sense for us. 4) We would rather buy a speed oven, definitely. I'm more sold on the 24" fridge now, but the LG is not expensive. I just don't know how big to make the opening, 30", 33", standard depth? 5) the half-wall was never intended for seating, just more counter or ledge space. Chairs would crowd the dining table too much. Thanks for asking.

I was probably projecting onto you how I'd feel in your shoes, SugarCookie. For me, it's not so much a matter of not wanting to move forward as it is not being able to move forward for now. We changed our cosmetic update to a full redo - if we're going to spend the money, let's fix our kitchen's functional issues - so we have to wait for enough time and money to do the project. Just minor things, ha! It's dangerous to have this much time to dream....

No beverage entertaining means you could get away with just an extra 6" to 8" out and still give your frig a built in look. However, still not sure if that layout would be possible in your situation. Also, I want to say I'm sorry if I have further confused things...I'm no expert but I do know I prefer my range with counter space not in a run with other kitchen stuff because I hate people in my cooking bubble and I dislike people getting near me for the frig. This is an odd statement I know especially being that I have an over the range micro which you would think might encourage peoples in my cooking bubble. I just say "NO" to that and don't have problems. In you space you would probably have room for an undercabinet speed oven though if you didn't want an OTR.

I was a condo administrator more than 20 years ago, in another building not the one I'm in now.

Know what limits are written. Beyond what is common property and what is yours, there are a few other limits written. Since it is written, it can be reviewed. It is not a secret.

Sometimes condo board administrators don't know these written limits. Better for you to know what you have rights to, before you approach them timidly about changes you might want to have done.

Better for you to ask a few factual questions first; it establishes that you are in factfinding mode. It tells you how much they know. Just be in listening mode. Later you can double check things and come back with a different approach because then you will be in approval mode.

Sometimes condo board administrators don't know facts. I had one condo administrator tell me every drain pipe needed a P trap, even a toilet drain. Totally wrong. He was a professional that we hired to sit on the board along with the owner-amateurs in our building who collected proxy votes and controlled things. This guy was a professional alternative opinion, paid for his involvement. His boss was the owner of a small professional administration firm. I once worked for the same man that this boss worked under, at the same time. Years later he bought the business, so my old business cards have the same phone number on them as the phone number of the "professional" who told me my toilet drains needed a P trap. Almost nobody in my building knows this. Don't repeat this story.

Sometimes condo board administrators don't know their operational limits. They declare things have to be this way or that way. Not true, in many cases. Of course they would like to prevent anyone from doing something they consider to be foolish, but.... that is not you. Ask about reading the written stuff first. And what it seems to mean. That is fact finding. Start by fact finding. They will drop the bullying attitude. It makes them your ally if you become well informed about the limits.

--

In your kitchen, in which direction is daylight and windows? I have seen the word "laundry" at one of the two openings to the kitchen. Please say a lot more about that space. Sight lines, views, windows, and anything else.

--

Yes look at the documents. I have been on a board and had to approach the board about renovations, and in my experience the board members often only know about facilities and renovations based upon their own biases and experiences. I recently tried to move forward on a project that was approved by a board with the caveat that I have the work done in a prescribed way. The newly elected board denied the work permit Because of the prescribed way the previous board had insisted upon. (Based upon one vocal member's incorrect assumptions about something).

Its a pain to read those documents but they are the legal guideline that is followed.

cluelessincolorado: your 3-d pictures have been immensely helpful. DH thought they were great as well. They are so much more helpful than the 3-d ones we've seen getting quotes. What software are you using?

Thank you for taking the time to do them, because it has REALLY helped us see what we like/dislike from a form vs. function viewpoint, since we've mostly been focusing on function.

Another vote for the breadboard pull out... I have one below my microwave and I use it each time I pull out something from the MW or as refrigerator landing space...

You are most welcome and I'm glad you could use them! My brain needs the 3rd dimension for sure! I'm just using a free software called Sweethome 3D. I have a Mac, but I'm pretty sure that it has one for a PC as well. Definitely lacking in nice details and it took a while to figure it out, but it was free! I finally looked up your speed oven, very nice! I can see why you'd rather have that. I just thought if you put in a 30" cooktop with drawers underneath, then if you really are worried about resale, someone could replace it with a range. Eight years is a lifetime, do what makes you happy! Like I said earlier, my refrigerator is probably ridiculous to most, but I couldn't afford the $5k Thermador columns(sniff sniff) so I had to make a compromise. I have one more set of pics, I was loathe to post them because I am waiting to see what Davidro1 comes up with and you're nearing the 150 mark. Davidro1 conjured up a most helpful and beautiful image for me when I first posted my troublesome space and I am still most grateful - thank you! I added another window because I saw THAT was important to me. HTH :) Oh yes, I think you mentioned something about hiding the mess, that's why I put in full walls.

SugarCookie let me open a hornet's nest and take care of it quietly on the side without disturbing your sleep.

Above, I asked about the adjacent space (called laundry) but I'd like to modify this request, broadening it to include all the condo. Humor me for a moment. Please post a drawing that shows generally what all the adjacent spaces are, in all four directions. This will not oblige you to answer a hundred other questions. Don't make it "to scale" ; hand-drawn with your left hand will be accurate enough. Do include arrows showing where the views are. I know there must be some daylight somewhere.

The square footprint we have seen up till now is 9' by 9'; at the VERY least I would like to know where daylight comes from, where views onto other areas are nice and aren't nice, and what the sight lines are. I'm sure that among the universe of possible options for the entranceway to your kitchen, many will be easy to reject and others need to be considered. Easy for me. I can do this without posting intermediate tentative proposals that will disturb your sleep. Others can too.

This information wants to be come out. It will be free. Let it go.

Hth.

p.s. the only things I've promoted so far are to have more counter space and less aisle, and to place the entrance opening somewhere closer to the center of that wall. These seem to be accepted by general consensus. All the other topics I've addresses in every post I've made so far, were to provide information only as information, about other things one may do, i.e. that are possible, not impossible. Most people in your situation need to know these facts first. Answer my request for factual information, and I promise that I will give you good work in return and I won't disturb your sleep with any remodeling proposal that will cause you to lose sleep.

(* rosie posted earlier about my favoring the left side of the kitchen. I moved the cooktop because I don't like to carry pasta across the aisle to drain. But am I better off over all having the stove and refrigerator swapped, as in buehl's layout #2?)

How ARE you holding all these thoughts together?! I noted your sink preference on reading the thread, but the moments spent emptying a pot are tremendously outnumbered by all the other functions that go into food preparation. Unless a physical debility makes this a special consideration. In any case, it has to be what you want. Nothing else. Me, I'll give a lot to enjoy cooking without having do do it amongst all the detritus that tends to pile up. But some people are highly organized, controlled cooks, cleaning and storing as they go along, and can do well in any space they're given. Obviously, not where I'm coming from. :)

cluelessincolorado, rosie & jterrilynn!

You have been my 11th hour Three Musketeers!

It is SUCH a different thing to see it in 3-d. And I don't know why or how, but I never saw that software mentioned. And it's FREE! I downloaded it this morning and have my walls and cabinets in. They don't look as nice as cluelessincolorado's drawings, but I hope it will get there.... You were so kind to do that for me; those drawings take a lot of time. Thank you so much. :)

And I just had the conversation with DH about how often do you drain pasta compared to everything else? Had Rosie not posted earlier, we would not have had that conversation. And Rosie's post today confirmed that discussion. I am a messy cook, so what WAS I thinking?!

And jterrilyn, your simple drawing with just the cooktop on one side made me say hey, wait a minute! I LIKE it like that. We have now adopted the expression "cooking bubble" and every time I say "NO", DH will now get out of my way! We had a good laugh about that. :)

Of course, I need to thank BUEHL!!! Her drawings always get the conversation in high gear and attract a lot of feedback. I know how much time and thought goes into a layout, so thank you, thank you, thank you.

This is beginning to sound like an Academy Award speech.

ALL OF YOU HAVE BEEN WONDERFUL!!! (If I name each one of you, I am bound to miss someone; so forgive me for not doing so.)

In case I don't get a chance to say it (because we are approaching 150 posts!!!), I appreciate all of the wonderful ideas, great information, voices of reason, and humor. This really is a wonderful community! I am truly grateful for all of you.

-- SugarCookie (what a silly name)

davidro1: you probably aren't going to believe this, but your post was not there when I checked in yesterday! Or maybe I have lost my mind. I am on dial-up (oy!), and maybe when the pics were loading, it caused the post to bounce out of view. Anyway, I'm sorry. I was going to look at cluelessincolorado's pics again today, and voila, I see what you wrote. :( So anyway here's the condo pic, not to scale, if you still want it. And thanks for recognizing that all of this causes me a lot of anxiety.

Gr8t.

I'll guess that you might want to have a layout that is just right so that the view onto the dirty sink is not permanently obvious from everywhere in the living room.

My first instinct is to suggest a frosted panel ("window") at the bottom RH corner of the kitchen floorplan, instead of a half wall. Then, daylight comes into the kitchen (and a lot of it), while views are blocked.

2ndly, I would not have a wall at the bottom LH corner, where the countertop ends. I would not even have a half wall. I would have a counter go all the way to where the wall is today (gives you 4 more inches of real counter space) and a "return" piece cover the side of the counter run. This makes the counter look like a piece of built-in furniture. It opens up the whole space, everything left hand side of the front door now appears like One Big Entire Architactural Ensemble. A couple long horizontal mirrors bring light into the kitchen and dupe the first impressions into thinking they are peeking into an additional 500 sg.ft. of condo space. It is good to have daylight coming from two directions, like the two windows in your LR-DR area, so you get this effect again (but to a lesser extent) in the kitchen with large mirrors. Actually, I think one floor-to-ceiling vertical mirror near the counter return piece will complete the trompe-l'oeil ("fooling your eye") effect and make the space appear twice as large while splashing daylight into your kitchen.

This counter with a return piece will be the 29" deep counter, in my mind's eye. I might get around to drawing it.

Where appliances go, where the sink goes, how big the faucet will be, blah blah, all this is for later.

I'll assume there is a good door closing off the bathroom.

B.t.w. did you know that you could have a laundry chute from your dressing room closet into the laundry room? A round Ikea mirror could cover a hole. Or a bigger opening.

Because of the space, when one of you is sleeping the other one probably has to keep quiet in the kitchen. It will make sense to talk about noise and sound insulation in terms of this context.

More ideas tomorrow.

Two parallel counters very deep.

Extend the long counter into the laundry corner.

Leave cooktop and vent on the same side they are now; move the fridge into the corner where the new frosted panel will go. No filler. Straddle the cooktop over two cabinets.

Leave room for the oven.
Leave room for the dishwasher.
Don't buy them until you've got the other things done first.

The list of costs is missing the items that might cost next to nothing or megabucks.
$0200 Inline Blower under the ceiling: gives you more shelf space at eye level.
$0200 frosted panel, false window, plexiglass, Lexan, Lucite, glass, or other material
$0200 Sink
$0400 Lighting
$0200 Mirrors
$2000 cabinets, drawers, (+ stuff)
$1000 Fridge
$1000 Induction cooktop
$0400 Numerar countertop (two of : 39" (cut down) by 73"L.)

Standardize all your cabinets so that the drawer fronts are either 24" or 30".

Hth

Hi, davidro1: Thank you so much for your posts. I've been mulling over your ideas, so here are some of my thoughts and questions. (But I completely understand if you want to move on; I certainly want to move forward!)

* Posted by davidro1 (My Page) on
Wed, Jan 12, 11 at 16:37

>>> I'll guess that you might want to have a layout that is just right so that the view onto the dirty sink is not permanently obvious from everywhere in the living room.

Yes, absolutely.

>>> My first instinct is to suggest a frosted panel ("window") at the bottom RH corner of the kitchen floorplan, instead of a half wall. Then, daylight comes into the kitchen (and a lot of it), while views are blocked.

This is an intriguing idea. Are you envisioning full-height, suspended from ceiling?

>>> 2ndly, I would not have a wall at the bottom LH corner, where the countertop ends. I would not even have a half wall.

The full-wall to the left of the half-wall is (supposedly) not load-bearing. A GC I consulted wanted to knock that out. (But, we are not using a GC.)

>>> A couple long horizontal mirrors bring light into the kitchen

Where did you envision these are placed?

>>> Actually, I think one floor-to-ceiling vertical mirror near the counter return piece will complete the trompe-l'oeil ("fooling your eye") effect and make the space appear twice as large while splashing daylight into your kitchen.

Actually, the entire left wall of the dining area is floor to ceiling mirrors (the condo has 9-ft ceilings, except the kitchen which is 8-ft). I think this is a bit dated-looking (70's, 80's?), but it does make the space look bigger... the intention, I suppose. I never thought of it as a potential source of light for the kitchen. (It's a bit cave-like now.) BUT! Removing the half-wall, as you suggested, could make a difference.

>>> I'll assume there is a good door closing off the bathroom.

LOL, actually I realized after I posted, that there is NO way to get into the bathroom the way I drew it! Well you did say "hand-drawn with my left hand" was okay... you didn't say you had to have access to the bathroom. ;)

>>> B.t.w. did you know that you could have a laundry chute from your dressing room closet into the laundry room?

Funny you should mention this. My husband's idea is to close off the laundry from the kitchen side to have use of the full back wall, and make the entrance to laundry through the closet! But if you could see how small that closet is... we'd have almost no room to hang clothes. (And we are both jeans/t-shirt kind of people; no shoe hoarding here!)

>>> Because of the space, when one of you is sleeping the other one probably has to keep quiet in the kitchen.

Fortunately, our habits/routine make this a non-issue. (But if you have a solution for the stomps-like-an-elephant-when-arguing-with-her-husband, upstairs, please advise.)

* Posted by davidro1 (My Page) on
Thu, Jan 13, 11 at 22:46

>>>Two parallel counters very deep.

Extend the long counter into the laundry corner.

Very interesting idea. But now you are crossing into my "anxious zone" by having to remove the wall. Also it's just a closet, just big enough for a stacked washer/dryer and room to stand in front of it. The hookups are on the left wall. . Where did you envision the washer and dryer would go?

BTW, the anxiety is more the process, than the demo. We live in a city where EVERYTHING needs a permit and inspection. Plus, the process of getting condo approval. I've already done this for the vent ducting... which now I don't need to relocate anymore!

>>> Leave cooktop and vent on the same side they are now;

That's the plan... at least for now. :)

>>> move the fridge into the corner where the new frosted panel will go.

I'm a little confused by your L/R description in the first post, but I think you mean in the lower left corner?

>>> Straddle the cooktop over two cabinets.

I hadn't thought of that. But if we do buy more expensive cabinets, wouldn't that void the (cabinet) warranty? I suppose it could be worth it, possibly.

>>> Leave room for the oven.
Leave room for the dishwasher.
Don't buy them until you've got the other things done first.

Agree.

>>> $0200 Inline Blower under the ceiling: gives you more shelf space at eye level.

Okay, ever since you put the bug in my ear with your post on Fri, Jan 7, 11 at 23:53, I have been reading up on this, including coming across several posts of yours on this topic. And you have sold me on this idea. I'm going to have DH replace the bathroom fan with one as well. So thanks for the that. Now if only I could justify one of those beautiful Modern-Aire hoods....

>>> $0200 frosted panel, false window, plexiglass, Lexan, Lucite, glass, or other material

I love this idea of yours. What do you think of rice paper, as in a shoji screen (but not a shoji screen itself)? It's not kitchen-proof like plexiglass, but it is a little softer, more organic. Hmm.

>>> $2000 cabinets, drawers, (+ stuff)

It would be too boring to relate our cabinet journey, but we DID start out with the RTA route in mind, including Scherr's, and Conestoga.

>>> $1000 Induction cooktop

In your in-line blower thread you mentioned a "small induction cooktop". What did you end up with and how do you like it? I am on the fence about induction for two reasons: 1) the learning curve since I'm not a very good cook (DH is, though); 2) the "mystery sound" that has been related in several posts here. Apparently only certain people can hear it. I'm remembering someone's teenager has to leave the room and a salesperson who said he wouldn�t have induction in his home because it bugged him, too. (And I'm NOT talking about the fan noise, clicking OR pan noises.) I have EXTREMELY sensitive hearing, so I can imagine being bugged by this. Anywho, would love to know what your setup is and how you like it.

>>> $0400 Numerar countertop (two of : 39" (cut down) by 73"L.)

I really love how people have incorporated wood counters into their kitchens, so this is a great, cost-effective means to do it. One kitchen I saw comes to mind that used this countertop, but I completely forgot until you mentioned it. (I had to google the name.) Thanks for the suggestion.

>>>Standardize all your cabinets so that the drawer fronts are either 24" or 30".

Yes, this would look great... possibly it will work. Does this mean I get to keep the 24" dishwasher, though? ;)

>>> Hth

I appreciate your thoughtful, creative ideas. I'll keep thinking on them. If only I could move forward....

Thank you, again. :)

Builders have to build walls to make it seem like they've done something worth paying for.

Instead of a wall to close off a tiny laundry closet, you can just hang a screen. Shoji. You can also use an ikea "Cover panel for high cabinet" (keyword search terms) as a space separator. It's 140mm thickness. Matches your kitchen. No wall = Saves three or four inches. No door. But this presumes you have a front loader washing machine (quiet).

Since you already have an 8' ceiling built, and 9' ceilings outside, to minimize work you can leave most of the 8' ceiling structure and cut open some of it to install a false skylight: that is anything that produces light; don't overthink this. Just a large boxy opening.

The LHS wall of the dining area has too many mirrors right now. You can see seams between the mirror panels. Then, with seams, it makes a continuous wall of mirror reflecting everything back so the illusion of opening up a new space is soon gone. And, if it just reflects back a dining table it is useless. Moving these mirrors to space them out a lot more makes them into "door openings" leading to new spaces, psychologically. But having three of them is too many as nobody has three doors off of one wall. So turning one of them to be horizontal straddling over onto the new kitchen counter area makes it into something more like a window than a door. But the current sizes may be too big.

Definitely, continuing the wall (that has mirrors in your DR) into your kitchen, without any break in that wall, makes sense. To do this means removing the small piece of separator wall that is there now. (This probably cannot be a loadbearing wall-let; because it's next to a loadbearing wall that divides your condo from the next one.)

To compensate for the open-ness created by removing that wall-let, I would add more wall opposite, i.e. from the corner near the bedroom and bathroom over to the middle of the kitchen space. I guess that is about 4'4". Here is where the false window is to be. Yes, it can be light Shoji. Yes it can go down to about floor level. In my view, it must be something framed into a real wall that looks substantial, or else the screen looks like an afterthought and a make-do kind of arrangement, and this reduces its value.

The first paragraph above mentions a cover panel or screen. This is on one side only. Where the big counter is. On the other side is the wall of your walk in closet. I have ideas for this wall. Over at Ikea, look at what they call wardrobe units. A hybrid pantrywall-wardrobe unit can occupy this wall. From a distance, it looks like a pantry. When someone pulls the pullout unit it still seems like pantry. (It is.) When someone pulls opens the full-length door they see something else: a closet, with a passthrough to the walk in. This way you get fresh air circulating when the weather is good enough to open the BR and DR windows. More about this in a couple days.

14mm thick. Cover panel. A bit more than half an inch.

Is there a way of adding the laundry space to the closet and squaring off that wall in the kitchen so that you can have a U shaped kitchen?