I hate to give negative suggestions without an idea for a good solution, but this might be helpful in ruling some things out...

About Layout 3--I wouldn't want a stove in front of a window. If the window is operable, this may not be allowed by your area's code anyway. Think of breezes blowing out low gas flames. Think of reaching over to close the window when it starts raining suddenly and you have three hot pots on the burners. Think of repeatedly cleaning greasy splatters off the glass.

Maybe someone can suggest how a range in front of a window can be done successfully (glass block?) but for me, if there's a window there I would want to be able to open it.

You are dealing with a small kitchen. If it was me, (and I had to deal with this issue too as my kitchen was 12'8" x 12), I would prefer the counter space and eliminate the prep sink. While a prep sink is great if you have the room, it seems like you really don't. Do you really want to give up all that counter space?

I was trying to figure out why I've looked at this thread twice but had nothing to say. Finally figured out it's because it's really hard for me to talk just about the sink in isolation from everything else you have going on in your room. It's a lot of parts, some of them moving, and they all affect each other.

In general, I think I agree with Cpartist that having a separate prep sink might not be the solution. Do you need two water stations? Or do you just want the dedicated basin? Maybe the solution is to have a bigger single sink with a larger and smaller bowl? Or even two sinks side by side? I've seen both done nicely.

Yep, I agree. One larger sink, or a divided sink will do what you need in a small space.

Frig, DW, 33"-36" sink, corner whatever, 24" base, 36" range?, 36" base. Dish storage in island across from sink. I agree that though a great notion; a prep sink is not necessary in that size kitchen.

Have you considered putting the big sink under the window? For more counter space there, you could do a 30" single bowl sink, which is really big enough to hold large baking and roasting pans and cookie sheets. The inside measurement will be about 27". You could also put the DW to the right of the sink, next to the fridge. Or the trash there and the DW at the end of the island near the sink. That way you would have the plumbing for sink, dw and fridge in the same vicinity.

Thank you so much for all your great responses!

One thing I will say is that my one window in the kitchen faces the blue siding of my next door neighbor 3 feet away. Although it will let some light in, it won't be much and there is NO VIEW!

This is why I was hoping to have a prep sink of sorts on the island, so I could prep at the island and look out the other windows in my (larger) room to the garden. You couldn't know that as I didn't post the whole kitchen layout here but I will now.

This is the window set-up generally. In this post, I'm just interested in the best places for appliances, sinks and trash pull-out (if I have room,) and dishwasher.

Another thing I was worrying about was opening the dishwasher right next to the fridge, mixing up prep and cleaning zones. That was one reason I was trying to place the cleaning sink and dishwasher at the other end of the kitchen (from the fridge,) so one person could wash and pack/unpack the dishwasher without getting in the way of prep. However, it may be that my kitchen is so small that I shouldn't worry about that aspect. Thoughts?

You have a small kitchen and you want TWO sinks; one a LARGE 36" base sink according to your plans, a 36" range and a trash pullout, a pantry, and an island. All that in what is basically an 11' x 11' kitchen. My kitchen was 12' x 12'8" and I couldn't do all that and still have enough storage, etc. I guess having places to put dishes, pots, pans, etc isn't that important to you because you don't have the room for everything you want in the space you have, UNLESS you want to give up the idea of the FR in there, or the seating for dinner in there. And from what you say, that idea is out. Plus you have windows on much of the rest of the space that you are not willing to lose.

When any of us design a room, we have to make compromises on our NEEDS vs our WANTS. I wanted to have a completely OPEN island to my LR/DR without the big column that was there. However, because that column holds up the whole building, I don't think my neighbors would have appreciated it if I had knocked it down. I too WANTED to have a prep sink, but for me, having enough storage won out and I nixed the idea of a prep sink. I WANTED double ovens separate from my cooktop. I wound up with a single oven below my cooktop. My compromise was to get one where the shelf inside pulled out completely on rollers and to get the largest capacity I could find. I WANTED a 36" wide induction, but my DH has a pacemaker and since they don't know how the magnets from the induction cooktop interact with the pacemaker's magnets, I quickly nixed that idea. Instead because of space, I wound up with a 30" touch pad electric.

You seem stuck on the idea of having a separate prep sink even though you were given some good ideas without one. Plus I believe you mentioned you were on a tight budget? A kitchen can be very workable WITHOUT a prep sink. Personally, I'd sooner give up the prep sink than the pull-out trash cans. Now those trash cans are worth their weight in gold to me!

BTW: I'm giving you my link to my kitchen, because the layout I posted for you on your other thread is similar to the layout I wound up with in my kitchen. Have a look and you'll see how workable it really is; even without a prep sink. Just remember I have a foot more in each direction, including aisle space. If you'd like I can post my orignal plans, although we made changes to those.

You also asked in the other thread what program I used. I did the layout in Photoshop. Used just the line tool.

Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen Photos

In Jenny1963's defense, the prep sink is highly advocated in this forum and I have seen one placed in some very small kitchens. When someone (like me) questions the need for a prep sink in a particular kitchen(since people can't even really seem to agree what their function is), the staunch defenders come out of the woodwork about how they could not have a kitchen without one. Its like you are proposing a kitchen without a refrigerator.(I am all for them in the right kitchen.)

I can understand why you would want a sink on your island instead of looking at a wall of another house. Seems like your view and the ability to converse with others would dictate your sink being on the island. Perhaps you could put a 30" sink there that would double as a prep and as clean up. That gives you storage and a long length of countertop next to the fridge and puts your water supply and prep area right across from the stove. Baking area could be between fridge and stove with nice counterspace this way. Do you often have two cooks here or kids in charge of clean up? Are you willing to get rid of the table and chairs and can you re-arrange sofa placement? Is the sofa built in?

Cpartist, I just haven't been able to scan the new sketch into my computer yet, as my husband and I can't figure out our new scanner. I'm not at all unwilling to compromise! That's why I'm posting; to see what others think are necessary compromises and which items others wouldn't compromise on. I only downloaded my original drawing just now, so that others could see the other windows that I could look out while prepping, rather than having my only sink in front of the only window that looks at NOTHING.

Thanks, palimsest and quiltgirl for your support and advice.

Quiltgirl, I do frequently have 2 people (not necessarily cooks, but cook and helper, or cook and cleaner.) The sofa and table/chairs are part of the renovation and are not yet in place. Just the most attractive thought as of yet.
And you're right; I like the idea of prepping while looking out, which I think is why I kept putting a prep sink on the island, so I could prep and also have counter space, while looking out to my deck and garden or into the room talking to family.
I DO worry about putting my main sink on the island because I worry I won't have enough counter space to prep next to it.

Palimpsest, thanks for your support of my desire for a prep sink. I see that I'll have to give one up, but it would've made my island a perfect prepping place.

pasture19, I have definitely thought of that; thanks so much! And, I agree 30" is a great size for a sink! My only concern with that alternative is that the one window in the kitchen looks out to my neighbor's siding. That's why, although I still may end up doing it, it's not my fave option.

remodelfla: thank you! I LOVE someone telling me what to do, including the bases! As a newbie, even knowing what size base cabinets are the most useful is super-helpful! If you were to design the kitchen with the one sink (fxning as both prep and clean-up sink,) in the island, how would you configure the rest of the kitchen, including trash-pull outs?

pillog, thanks again for your input! I'd ideally (in dream world) like to have two separate sinks, so one could be used for dedicated cleaning and the other used for prep in the island, but my kitchen is too small for that set-up. I don't really like double bowl sinks, as I constantly splash into the 2nd bowl. Guess I'm a spaz. Don't really understand how two sinks side by side could be used in my kitchen, but maybe I'm just not that imaginative.

mnerg, I know layout #3 is stupid, but ironically that's what we have now: the range in front of the glass block window. That's what the previous owners did, and I'm starting to see why (just joking, kind-of.) I really WOULD like to get away from it, though. I guess my other alternative would be to move the range into the island, but I worry about the noise from the vent hood, as well as potential splattering would keep away island visitors. Thanks for the confirmation of my thoughts!!

I like the last plan (plan D?) with the big sink under the window (make it a garden window and stick a big fern in it). BUT. Instead of a prep sink I'd just use the island for prep. Just wash your stuff and throw it on the island. Bring a nice compost bucket. I don't see why you'd need a second sink in a small room. Do you really need water nonstop while prepping? Nahhhhh. Maybe if you're deveining shrimp, but you'd do that in the deeper sink anyway!

If you're worried about too many people working at once, get a super BIG sink and two faucets.

But if you must have a prep sink, I like it in the island.

A prep sink is not controlled by the size of the kitchen, rather it is driven by functionality...how a kitchen's layout functions as well as how many people work in a kitchen at the same time (prepping and/or cleaning up, primarily).

If you have two or more people trying to use the sink, it can reduce contention for the sink and the floor space in front of the sink.

If you have or would like a Prep Zone that does not share space with a Cleanup Zone or that is ideally situated somewhere other than on one side of a cleanup sink, then it makes a kitchen of any size more functional.

My kitchen is by no means big and I have a 2-bowl cleanup sink plus 1-bowl prep sink...and it functions 1,000% better than my old kitchen I'm not exaggerating! I used to dread working in my old kitchen and usually only tried to bake very, very late at night so I didn't have to compete with others. Now, I can cook, bake, whatever, at any time of the day and everything flows/works so much more smoothly. If I did not have a separate prep sink, it would still be a bit of a pain to work in my kitchen. Bottom line...the prep sink in my kitchen is one of the main things that make it work so wonderfully well!

cpartist, thanks for the advice, though I'm sorry to be annoying.

Of course I understand that I have to compromise; designing a kitchen is a process, and I'm right at the beginning of it. I DO really appreciate the constructive feedback you've given regarding the actual layout of the kitchen.

If I drew the range as 36," that was a mistake; it's actually a 30" gas range. Of course, I'm happy to go down to a smaller size for the sink. My pantry is not in the actual kitchen per se, but outside of it. The island I am not wedded to, but it makes decent use of space. And I have forgone the prep sink. I am asking if I have room for trash pull-outs; that's why I'm posting to this forum. I would never have considered trash pull-outs nor a prep sink, if it hadn't been for this amazing forum. Thanks, too, for the link to the pics.

buehl, I understand, and in fact, it's because of YOU that I'm trying to think outside the "work triangle" from the 50's (or whenever,) and attempting to think about Cleanup and Prep zones. How would you configure the appliance and sink(s) in my kitchen?

fori, I like the way you think! That's a pretty good idea! It reminds me that I had been thinking about putting shelves across the window and putting plants ion them, but a fern would probably work best in terms of the shade. You're right, too, with regards to not needing running water all the time. Hmmm. Gotta do some pondering.

Another "no room for prep sink" family here. We have a double-sink in a 33" base (Ticor s997). I like it because the second side is smaller but still big enough to be usable without splashing everywhere. My old kitchen had a huge Kohler 36" sink, but shrunk my sink base a bit to accomodate an 18" trash pull-out. I find my new sink plenty functional, though.

One thing I do have is water in the fridge. A "beverage prep" chef (one of my daughters) can get glasses, ice, water, and any refrigerated beverages without coming into the main cooking area. And, the "table setting staff" person can grab plates and silverware also without getting in the way of the person using the main cooking counter run between the sink and range.

A second chef is not a frequent thing at our house, but for something like salads someone can wash stuff at the sink and move it over a bit either to a small counter over the dishwasher or to the island (which does not have seating). They would be in the way of the table setting person, though.

You don't need two sinks to have room for helpers in the kitchen, and just having the fridge and glasses out of the way really helps for kids who just want a quick drink while you're trying to fix dinner.

I have a couple more ideas. I'll get to them tonight or tomorrow. :) With a trash pullout!

This is one I came up with a couple of days ago for your other thread but never finished until today...

The cleanup sink is not under the window b/c your Prep Zone and where you will spend approx 70% of your work in the kitchen is now on the island. There's a secondary Prep Zone b/w the cleanup sink and range. (If the window were under the sink there would be too much competition for the floor and counter space on the left side of the sink b/w the Cooking Zone and Cleanup Zone.)

The trash pullout is convenient to both Prep Zones, the Cooking Zone, and the Cleanup Zone.

The refrigerator is on the periphery so it's easily accessible from inside & outside the kitchen without the "insiders" and "outsiders" getting in each others way.

Ditto for the MW, for the most part (if you use a MW drawer).

Ditto the prep sink...it can double as a drink sink if needed and keep outsiders out.

There's a 15" seating overhang. Only two seats. The island isn't wide enough for 3 seats (it would have to be 72" long) and not deep enough for a seat on the side unless you shortened up the island (so there's decent aisle space b/w the table & island with eating) and eliminated another 15" of cabinet space. You could move the seats on the long end all the way over, but there's still the issue of a decent aisle. 44" is pushing it for aisle width with seats on one side (I'd rather see 48" to 54"), let alone adding a seat on the other side to the mix.

Gotta go...basketball game soon (my DD is on the JV team).

Thanks, janet125! That's a great idea. Making sure drinks/water are accessible in the fridge could be a decent stand-in for the drinking aspect of a prep sink! How big are the respective bowls of your double sink?

Buehl, thanks so much! I really appreciate all the work and thought you put into my plan. IF, and I just say, IF you had to keep the fridge in it's original spot, how would you shift things around, do you think? (We're attempting to keep an interior window or framed opening open over the first 3 feet of countertop (where the upper cabinets would be ordinarily) but I don"t know how long that will last...) Thank you! Thank you!

Oh! I didn't realize that was an opening! (I thought it was a new wall segment.)

I'll have to get back to you on that...but it probably won't be until late tonight as I have to head over to the school to work the snack bar this afternoon and then attend a volleyball banquet with my daughter right after.

Thanks, janet125! That's a great idea. Making sure drinks/water are accessible in the fridge could be a decent stand-in for the drinking aspect of a prep sink! How big are the respective bowls of your double sink?

This is my sink. The prep sink is 10 inches wide and 7 inches deep. There are a lot of double-sinks where the prep side is both narrower and shallower -- I came from a 4 inch deep prep sink, and unless you were careful to keep the faucet turned down low it splashed everywhere. My deeper prep sink is so much less messy!! My main sink is even deeper, would probably be too deep (too much bending over) without the wire grid. But, it comes with the grid, and it's great.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ticor S997

You don't have to live with a less-than-lovely view out your window. Check out shanghaimom's kitchen window.

Who wouldn't want to look at that! Her whole kitchen is gorgeous. Her windows are leaded glass but you could imitate the look with window film. Or perhaps it's possible to sandblast a pattern onto your existing window without harming its e-value.

Here is a link that might be useful: finished! Vintage Cream in the City

Meant to add "what remodelfla said." That's a lay-out similar to what I'm planning when we remodel. Right now I'm leaning towards adding a prep sink to the island (sure would have come in handy at Thanksgiving) but I also like the idea of having my relatively small island free and clear of obstructions.

I also like Buehl's plan but I didn't realize you were short on wall there. But definitely lose that one island stool as she suggests. 44" is not enough clearance between two seating areas, IMO.

One more thought. Have you considered a corner sink? You'd need to shift your cooktop down a bit but this set-up might be a possibility for you. Put the DW next to the fridge, than a set of drawers or garbage pull-out or ? between DW and corner sink. I suggest this in case you are tight on space to put the DW between fridge and sink (I can't tell by your drawing above) and don't like the idea of a sink off-center from the window. It would be similar to lucretzia's kitchen set:

or this one

Both of the above have corner windows, which you don't have, but hopefully they will give you additional ideas for your kitchen.

Still worth trying out. My concern about the island layout is that it is a "kitchen" with a big sofa in it. The sofa is oriented toward the kitchen not the view.

{{!gwi}}

Lisa a, those are two great ideas! A friend had suggested stained glass, but I forgot about it until you suggested it and posted that great pic! Thank you SO much!! I think I WILL put my large sink under the window and either get some antique glass or get some stained glass made for it. Thanks SO much!! The corner sink is also a great idea. Since I don't have any windows in the corner, I think I'll forgo it, particularly because I read a comment (after googling corner kitchen windows) that 2 people cannot use a corner sink at the same time. That decided it for me. Great idea though. Thanks again!!

Very similar to your original (since the refrigerator has to stay in the upper right corner)...

You're welcome, Jenny! I love a good excuse to post shanghaimom's kitchen. I have seen kitchens with corner sinks not in front of corner windows but danged if I can find one now.

Nice plan, buehl.

Jenny, here's a tip to give the illusion that the sink is fully under the window: build out the molding so that it ends even with or beyond the inside of the sink. It will make the window look larger and give the illusion that the sink is under the window, like this:

{{!gwi}}

Here is a link that might be useful: window/sink placement

Buehl, Thanks SO much! It looks like a great plan! I'm still trying to figure out if there's somewhere else I can stick the fridge that would work with our overall plan, like across the doorway, where the pantry supposed to be. But then, does it really improve anything? Thanks again! I think your plan might work...I just need to figure out how to use a 3-D modeling program...

lisa a, how do you know all this stuff?? That's a GREAT idea!! I love it! I've been stressing about the placement of the window, but that is a TERRIFIC idea! Thanks for following up!!!

Am I the only one that sometimes gets really bummed out by their house's limitations?? Maybe it's just PMS...

palimpsest, maybe I'm just dumb, but what's wrong with a "kitchen" with a sofa in it? Can you explain? (Thanks for the drawing, too!!)

You're welcome, Jenny! And I "know all this stuff" because I've been researching for my kitchen remodel for some time now and, most especially, because I've been hanging around this forum for almost 2 years.

And no, you aren't the only one bummed by your home's limitations. If only there were a magical kitchen stretcher that would add a few inches here and a foot there, then all my kitchen wishes could come true.

I guess if it is a primary living space, I prefer a bit of separation. My apartment is really all one room downstairs, but the living part of it is oriented away rather than toward the kitchen.

So I may have misunderstood how you are going to be using the space as a whole--it seemed that this might be the living space in its entirety, but it looks like there is more house off to the left besides stairs.

I also tend to design tiny urban kitchens in smallish houses where there is one living space, and because of this most people do not want the whole thing too open or the kitchen aspect of it to be too large. Which may be the opposite of the suburban model with a greatroom/kitchen but another living space. There is a condo nearby where they put larger, more 2000s kitchens in them without adding overall square footage and they are having trouble selling them, I think because one gets the impression that the units are a 2BR 1.5 Ba, eat-in kitchen. It feels as if there is no "living room" at all.

This is not the case with yours, but I keep wondering about the sofa being oriented so the kitchen is its focal point, and away from the windows.