For the most part, I like it. 2 things bother me: The tall pantry that will crowd the corner counter area, and the prep sink placement. (oops...One more. I'm adding the dw and trash placement...explained below)

I would opt to switch the pantry and microwave, putting the microwave in the upper cabinet and having counter below to the left of the fridge, making that stretch of counter more open and more usable as workspace.

The prep sink is back to back with the main sink and with the open dishwasher door. Actually, I would swap the trash and dw, getting the dw out of the work area and putting the trash more convenient to the cooking/prep space so it can be more easily shared with the cleanup area. I throw away as much from the prep area as the cleanup. I'm guessing this will also place the dw closer to dish storage?

With that swap, the prep sink location is improved and not as troublesome, but I still might want it moved to the right, so not so close to whomever works at the main sink.

A second trash cabinet inside the island might prove very useful.

Rhome, thanks so much for your input.

The fridge wall is the thing that has had me the most perplexed. There is an air return duct to the far right on that wall, so I wouldn't have the same tall pantry space moving it to the right of the fridge, but I could use what is there floor to ceiling and it should be enough. I was trying to get the MW lower down and out of the main kitchen area for the kids, but they use the OTR MW now and it's not that big a deal. I haven't envisioned needing to use the counter next to the fridge as workspace or even landing space with the prep counter being right there. I was also thinking about visual balance when looking at that wall, but overall I'm not one to care about form so much as function.

I had originally thought about moving the DW to the left of the sink, wasn't sure how much trouble that would be, but I think that switch could be made easily and would probably work much better. The dishes and utensils are slated to go in the 36" bank of drawers to the right of the prep sink. DH uses the MW frequently and wants to have plates and utensils easily accessible to it, but maybe I don't need 36" for that -- 18-24" maybe? Then the prep sink could move over 12" or so.

Thanks again... that is very helpful insight!

Thanks Monkeypuzzle! I plan to attach a compost bin to the inside of the prep sink cabinet door, but a trash can inside the cabinet might be helpful too. Maybe a little less needed if I switch the trash and DW on the sink wall.

Not much time, but a quick look...

First, I highly recommend you switch the DW & Trash Pullout. For two reasons...(1) get the DW out of the Prep Zone and (2) put the trash pullout where it can be accessed from the Prep Zone, Cooking Zone, and Cleanup Zone.

Question...If you will have a walk-in pantry, do you really need that tall pantry cabinet? If it were me, I'd rather have more counter space, move the range to the right, and create a more open feel on the refrigerator wall. Tall pantries (or any tall item) can sometimes create a cramped area.

OK...I really have to go...more later! Happy New Year!

I also think I would ditch the tall pantry, shift the fridge down and put the microwave to the left (when facing) the fridge. I'm not sure if you even would have space on the right side of the fridge for a good sized microwave.

Add me as another voice suggesting that you rethink the tall pantry given your large walk-in pantry. If you organize your pantry to maximize its space, you'll be amazed at how much you can store in your pantry. We replaced our builder-standard pantry shelves with Elfa shelving system and increased our storage capacity significantly. And I don't think my pantry is as large as yours.

However, if you feel you absolutely need a pantry cabinet in your kitchen, I also vote for swapping its placement with the MW.

Happy New Year everyone! I hope you all have a wonderful 2010 filled with many blessings!

I don't know how I can thank you enough for your help with my layout -- you are such gems, taking your time on a holiday helping a stranger with kitchen plans!

Lisa_a, are you the one who lives in Oregon? We were in Sherwood at this time last year waiting to hear that we could come home to NC after adopting our baby girl. I hope the weather is better this year!

I will definitely switch the DW and trash and move the MW out from the corner. (I read in another thread yesterday that most MWs have hinges on the L, so that would not have worked at all anyway... not sure I would have thought about it without your help though.)

Buehl, I assume you meant move the fridge to the right, not the range? If you meant the range, I don't understand how that would improve things. If you mean the fridge, no need to explain.

I'll have to think more about whether to put the MW up higher, to keep or ditch the tall pantry cabinet to the R of the fridge, and to move the fridge further to the right.

I will move out of the way and let others get their questions answered. Again, I wish I could do more to thank you -- your help is invaluable. I guess this is a pay-it-forward kind of place. I will stick around and do what I can to be helpful, aspiring to be half as helpful as you all are.

Actually, I meant both. Move the refrigerator down (to the right) and the range. Put in a corner susan (super or lazy). This will give you more prep space b/w the sink & range. By removing the Pantry & moving the refrigerator, you really open up that corner...more workspace as well as a more open "feel".

Regardless, I recommend getting rid of the Blind Corner cabinet as most people find them either useless space or reserved for seldom used items b/c it's difficult to get to them w/o either climbing in or creating roll out trays that then require you keep the space in front of them clear to use. The pullout mechanisms that Rev-A-Shelf, Haefele (sp?), & others sell can often be worse than nothing at all (things fall off & you can't close them until you crawl inside to retrieve the fallen item, mechanisms fail if you exceed recommended weights, etc.) Susans, OTOH, are a good use of space, you can store all your pots & pans in them or small appliances or use it as a pantry. The nice thing about them is that everything is in front and easy to access...just turn the susan and what you need is front & center!

The table can't go where you've placed in. The person on the north will not be able to get into the chair. The table edge needs to be minimum 32" from the counter edge.

You might be able to rotate the table 45 degrees so it sits on the diagonal and avoid this issue.

I think it will feel awful to have the table in the hallway.

Oh, my. I completely missed the notation about the table, and only really looked at the top plan. That is a problem.

Lisa_a, are you the one who lives in Oregon?

Yep, that's me! I'm just up the road from Sherwood. Did you hear about the crazy snow day we just had? It took my hubby 3 hours to get home from Woodburn! You'll be glad you missed that.

Thank you so much for your help so far! I have been working on a response but it is getting late so I will have to finish it tomorrow. Your thoughts have already spurred a great deal of discussion and possible solutions.

Lisa, crazier than last year?!? Hard to believe. It took us almost 4 hours to get from Salem to Hillsboro to get the baby. The birthmother was to be d/c'd from the hospital at 12 and we didn't get there until 6:30. We stayed in a house on the highest point in Sherwood and almost didn't make it up the hill Christmas Eve. You're right, I can do without that this year! Be safe!

Will that really be your only table in your home? Even if you don't need more than 4 seats, I would think for future potential resale value you'd want a more substantial area for eating built into the overall floor plan. Are you renovating the kitchen only? Or are other rooms being reworked, etc?

First, let me say thank you for continuing to look at my layout. I am so sorry for the length of this response.

Bmore, I am borrowing the second half of your name for a minute. I'll give it back, I promise. I had just told DH "I think I'm done" when I saw your post that said "won't work". If we kept this house forever (that's the plan), we could live with it. But when I told DH about your comment, he said "Let's pretend we're moving." We do want to make it as good as possible within budgetary and practical limits.

I agree that the table is not ideal there. In resale, t might be one of those "What were they thinking?!?" flaws. However, it doesnt seem so "hallwayish" (to us) in that path of the LR, at least not now with doorways being where they are. ItÂs not there in the pictures, but we have always had the table in the original breakfast nook area, right in front of the french doors out to the deck. One of our regrettable addition designs (12 years ago) was turning a window into the doorway into the (current) laundry room rather than arranging things for better traffic. So weÂve always scooted past the table to get through two paths and putting the table where you see it on the drawing has felt like heaven.

If you have suggestions, I'd love to hear them. Here are my solutions, in order of ideal world (maybe reverse order of reality?):
1. Turn back the clock 12 years and design our addition to connect the house and garage differently, with help from you all.
2. Tear off part the deck out the back door that we built in August and add an eating area.
3. Live with it. What you see on paper is infinitely better than what we have lived with for many years (again, I'd design the previous addition differently to take care of that).
4. Hope that if we ever have to sell, the potential buyers would be charmed by our 2 1/2 acres on a lake in the middle of town, close to everything, and ignore the design flaws (or not see or think about them until theyÂve lived with it for a while).
5. Hope that skinny lanky DD (almost 11) will forever be able to get into her chair (on the north end, of course) with only 18" clearance!
6. Shorten the island to ~6' and turn it 90 degrees, with the prep sink on the end toward the windows. Put the table on the other side of the island this way. To do this, we'd have to take out a portion of the wall along the hall (up to the air return) and probably add another column for support. (This is not out of the question.)
7. Decrease the depth of the island to 24" and move it back into the kitchen 6", giving the north end of the table another 12". Or turn it 45 degrees, as you suggest (we've had it that way in our tiny traffic-ridden space for a long time anyway).
8. Shorten the length of the island to 7Â (have it at 9Â now), keep it where it is, reduce the pantry, move the table to the left.
9. Plan to add a little more forward when we do our addition so the LR can be the DR. (see below)
10. Flip the whole design, putting the fridge where the pantry is, closing in the french doors and leaving the door where we have the range planned, making the other end the eating area. That area is 11.5Âx8.5Â but that includes the door and the path from the hall to the door. That would also put the kitchen into one thruway (to the laundry room -- granted, IÂm usually the only one who ventures back there) but another reason I like the current design is that it keeps everyone going around the kitchen. Also, the views are out to the left so I'd want to keep the windows I have planned.
11. ???????

Judydel, we are planning an addition after the kitchen is done, onto the front of the house. Originally, the LR was to be dining and we would add a great room in front of it. We did have two tables planned for that space, but one was to the left of the island (prepantry) and the other was in the LR. (Currently we do only have one table.) As we looked at it, we decided we needed to scale back and not have the addition be quite as big; it also didnÂt make sense to have two tables so close together in an open plan like we have. We could go back to having a little more space in the addition so the LR can double as DR/eating area. One reason I put it next to the island was for convenience across the counter; maybe it wouldnÂt be so inconvenient to have it a few more feet towards the front.

Now, to buehl's thoughts:
- I have managed to incorporate a Susan into the corner with a 12" door on each side of the angle. I have read that this is minimum; is it enough?
- I have moved the range over but have kept it 30" from the corner. I can still go over 9" and do what I was hoping to do over the range. The electric panel won't let me go much further than that anyway. Also, I have had the range about 6" from the corner for 15 years and I'm ready to feel like I have a little more elbow room to my right.
- I also moved the fridge to the right, not all the way down though. The air return duct comes 12" into the kitchen up almost to counter height. I found this site Mississippi State University Guidelines a while back and have been keeping those #s in the back of my head. It says 15" clearance for a fridge from the corner/wall and I didn't want to go past that, so I've left 24" there. I am pretty sure I won't use any counter space to the R of the fridge with all the other space I have elsewhere, so I have kept that 24" as tall cabinets. All the counter space we already have planned is much more efficient and astronomical compared to the useable space we have now, so it all feels luxurious when I look at it. (Doesn't mean I don't want to improve it where I can... that's why I asked!)

OK, you can have your name back now, bmorepanic! I'm done... nothing is worth that much stomach lining and it will be OKÂ all of you will see to that!

Thanks again!

I agree that you need more seating. I also understand the need for a large pantry. But, what about something like this? It's hard to read, so I'll try to explain.

There is a banquet where the pantry sits that I think can seat 6 if my measurements are correct. This also involves closing up the original frig wall on the "right" side completely and putting tall narrow pantry storage. That would sit between the airduct and the island. I was also hoping you had some space in your laundry for more storage. Do you?

There are three stools in the L with the load bearing post coming down onto the island. There is also a prep sink in the L. As for the rest of the appliance placement, I'll defer to others with more knowledge.

Just have to add that I hate Photobucket now. My images never used to be this small. Anyone else?

I use Photobucket and my pics are not so tiny. How do you upload? Do you upload the actual sizes?

I do all my cropping & resizing on my local machine and then upload my pics as-is, no resizing or choosing a size.

Houseful,

When I put my pictures into my message, I am able to resize them in photobucket first. You should have that option. You can keep them proportional. I just entered 800 for the first dimension of the layouts (photos were 400x whatever). Whenever you edit your pictures, be sure to click "save a copy" unless you want that to be your only copy of the picture.

It's a little hard to see and when I click on it, I can't open it, but I think I get the idea. It looks like you have switched the range and fridge?

I am open to considering other island shapes. One reason I had it long and straight was to keep 48", no more, from the sink wall to the island. We have 7' between sink and prep counter right now and it's too much. I want to have the island storage easily accessible to the working part of the kitchen.

After I said "flip the design", it occurred to me that I could rework the space as drawn where the pantry is and put the table there. It looks to me like that would be enough space for traffic. When people are sitting at the table it may mean edging past rather than walking past, but that's only a fraction of each day. With chairs pushed in it would be adequate, and still give the wall side plenty of space to pull out (I'm giving it 30" rather than 32"). The table could go either in the left side of the space with walk through on right, or reverse.

I love the idea of a banquette. I don't like the idea of an L-shaped one -- it makes me claustrophobic. But the L part of that wall is not there now anyway. We could have a straight banquette on that wall. The other side of the wall could be pantry shelves (that hall is 3'11").

Storage in laundry - it is a 6.5x16' room. The W/D are on the wall shared with the bathroom. We will also put a sink in (already plumbed on the same wall at the corner closest to the kitchen). There is space on the far end for more storage. We're trying to decide whether to put our upright freezer or extra fridge in that space.

As for the wall from the air return across, I think that will make me feel too closed in and removed from the bedrooms, especially while baby is sleeping. We did draw in a narrower cabinet between the two beams for china which came from your idea.

I don't know how big the columns need to be. I was thinking of 12" square on the bottom and smaller diameter round on top. I have them drawn at 12" for now, just in case.

As I say it, I think how crazy it seems to "need" so much space. I really need to get rid of lots of stuff in this process.

Wish I had some nice software like everyone else, but hand-drawn will have to do for now!

Thanks so much!

Revised kitchen plan - range and stove both moved to right 6" or so; table to left of island; pantry in hall
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Hand-drawn works great, especially with the grid to help see distances.

All-in-all this is an improvement, both in the main kitchen area and for the table, although the clearances are tight there.

BUT...Are those seats I see on the China storage side of the island? It looks like you have maybe a tiny bit less than 3 ft on that side of the island already. That would be my minimum without seating. If you add any kind of overhang for the seating (best would be at least 15"), you'll only have about 20" between the bar and the China cabinet.

It's only potential seating, not reality. I wasn't counting on having that as regular extra seating but drew those in to get a feel for having a place for people to perch a little more into the kitchen. Actually, I didn't write it in, but the counter itself is 30" and the cabinets are 24", so there's already a 6" overhang. I know if I want actual seating there, I need more. Is it better not to have a perching place at all than to have too little overhang? I could possibly look for another place to put china, which would give ample space to expand the counter and put seats. I know I don't want a 4' island -- that's what we have now and it's too big. 3' would be OK; I guess 39" would be as well. I have waffled the entire time about whether to try to have island seating or not.

I love the new layout. Hands down, an improvement as far as I'm concerned. I love the ability to do a china hutch and built-in pantry ,it would give a lot of great design options. In my head it reminds of elizpiz or the newly finished one from country_smile with the ability to do different finishes for a hutch.

Would you consider shrinking the 48" clearance between the sink wall and the islan in order to gain more room for seating? I know you have to worry about the opening of the stove and dw, but do you need the full 48"?

For sure I could move the island 6" into the kitchen. I had it there for the longest time, but decided I wanted a little more clearance after trying it out with boxes. I will look for other threads on that subject and see what others think.

I think I'll look for somewhere else to put the china and keep the seating in there.

I have admired both those kitchens before. I studied country_smile's hutch long and hard to see if there was any way to incorporate either my hoosier or china cabinet or a new hutch into the design. I also love ebse's hutch.

Thanks for your thoughts, brickton!