What we don't like about our kitchen is the general style - light maple cabinets, formica counters; the location of the refrigerator - this is a biggie for us, and is probably what prompted a layout change; we tend to have more than one cook in the kitchen and get tangled up with each other between the island, sink, and range; we don't like the way people tend to venture into our workspace uninvited (LOL) - between the island and DW, or the island and existing pantry. We hope to add a pantry into space that is currently behind the refrigerator - so a door (only 24") would be there.

We would like to keep (if possible) the range and dishwasher. Both have been bought since we moved in 4.5 yrs. ago and they are just kenmore, but work well enough for us. That is the main reason I created the "backsplash" area behind the range on the various options - it is not a slide-in, but a freestanding, therefore it is about 50" tall. We know this isn't ideal, but found a photo of a similarly done peninsula here on the FKB (Susan, I believe) and liked the way it looked.

At the top of the images, we are opening up the kitchen to what will be a new family room. We will likely need a support column in the upper right corner - that is the square you see. We are going with an Arts and Crafts style to go with existing furniture, so a wooden column there should fit in okay. The existing sliding glass doors will obviously just be removed since that wall will be completely open to the new room.

We have 2 kids that are just getting to the age that they also want to join us in the kitchen - 7 and 9. So that needs to be taken into consideration. I definitely want to do a MW drawer. I think that will be most convenient for my family, and I am under 5' tall, which is also a factor in the design.

Problems with option 1:

This was what I initially imagined in my mine. When I drew it out, it really felt like we were losing too much storage space. We are still very early in planning, and I know that the exact cabinets chosen will depend on lots of factors (custom, Kraftmaid from Home Depot?). So, maybe that isn't accurate, and I'm also not sure how much the other options improve on this.

Option 2: I really like this plan except for one thing - the distance from my stove to my sink - carrying a pot of pasta to drain made me rethink this one.

Option 3: Currently my DH's favorite, but the obvious problem is the very closed off nature of this plan, and having to go through that one opening to go to the pantry.

I am sure there are lots of other problems with all three plans that I haven't thought of, and other options that I haven't thought of, which is why I'm posting. So, go ahead and rip them apart!

Thoughts on your layout...

1. I like this layout. It keeps wanderers out of your kitchen and gives you and your DH enough room to move around. Could you extend the left side of the wall on the are where the old fridge was and put in either bifold or sliding doors to create a new pantry?

2. This is okay. It will cramp up the fridge area but you still have an exit on the other side.

3. I would not do this one as it gives you a narrow entry into the kitchen...and your only entry and exit is where the fridge is which I see as a potential road block.

First, you have some notes on your layouts that are difficult, if not impossible, to read...particularly where you appear to have raised bars.

Where are you planning seating? Are you planning ample overhang? 18" if you have seats behind a sink (counter- or bar-height seating to protect against splashing), 24" if behind the range (again, counter- or bar-height seating...to create a safety zone, more on that later). [Both water & grease splash up and out.]

Raised bars...In general, a raised bar eliminates one of the biggest advantages to having an island or peninsula...the wonderful expanse of workspace for projects such as baking, crafts, science fair, gift wrapping, etc.

Range

The one place where we don't object too much to bi-level counters is where there's a cooktop or range in an island or peninsula. That particular location is a safety issue and anything you can do to mitigate the danger is essential. What dangers? Grease splattering. Steam drifting out and into the faces of someone sitting nearby. Hot surfaces too "easy" to get to for little children. If you have seating, someone reaching over the cooking surface (and hot pots/pans) to show you something. Spreading out a newspaper or spreading out homework (papers, books, etc.) behind the range. If you have gas, flame. You need room so papers, etc. won't be accidentally pushed onto the cooking surface. You have to be especially careful w/a raised counter b/c there's no immediate "reminder" that something is there and things can be pushed off and down onto the cooking surface.

I recommend a safety zone of 24" on all 3 sides...back, left, right. This zone not only protects others, but it also provides ample emergency landing space as well as a fairly decent workspace (36" or more is better for workspace, especially if it includes the Prep Zone, but not necessary for safety.)

One way of mitigating the danger is a bi-level counter, but it's only marginally effective. The best thing you can do is have approx 24" of counter behind if you have seating behind or near it or 18" if there is no seating. This protects people from splatters when sitting or walking by. I've seen grease splatter 18"...

Do you plan to vent your range to the outside (I really hope your answer is "yes", especially given the openness of your kitchen.) Having the range on the peninsula or in an island means you will need an island hood.

Island hoods are generally more expensive than wall hoods (one reason is they have to be finished on all 4 exterior sides and have to have a capture area built in for all 4 sides of the interior.)

Vent ducting can also be more expensive b/c now you have to cross to an exterior wall (unless you can go straight up and through the roof of your house.)

You will also need a larger hood b/c air currents in open places are stronger and more likely to be present than against a wall. For a 30" range, you really should have an island hood that's at least 36" wide and 27" deep...the capture area of the hood has to be big enough to cover all burners as well as about 3" in front of, behind, and on the sides of the cooking surface. As smoke/fumes/odors/grease/etc. rise, they begin to drift/expand almost immediately (especially in an island or peninsula situation), so if your hood is only as wide as the cooking surface, the hood will miss everything that expands.

It's also a good idea to get a more powerful hood for the same reason...probably at least 900cfms. If you get an even more powerful hood (1000 to 1200cfms), you can then run it a lower speed and it will be quieter.

Option 2

This option does not appear to fix your main complaint..."visitors" wandering through your kitchen. It may actually be worse since the refrigerator is now part of the kitchen and not separate.

Option 3

This layout has the potential of "trapping" people in the Cooking Zone.

Are you open to me trying to come up with a layout/plan as well?

@monkeymo:

1. That was why I planned it that way, but once it was drawn up, became worried about storage. The pantry door will be on the wall behind the current fridge location. It is currently a powder room with the door entering into the hallway - we want to move the door to have it entering the kitchen area. It will be long and narrow - I was following another thread regarding this very similar problem. I am willing to live with it to gain the additional storage.

2. No concerns about distance between sink and stove?

3. Thank you, what I suspected and needed to hear.

Buehl:

There will be a bar behind the sink. It will have2-3 barstools (at bar height, not counter height). This will open into a new family room - we'd like to keep visitors in there, and out of the kitchen. Bi-level counter on the peninsula or island is due to the freestanding range that we hope to keep and is about 50" high - which is higher than bar height, but I am hoping to get away with it thanks to the column. The thing you probably can't read is that I hope to put shelves on the back side for cookbooks, etc. they will be open to the primary seating area (where I have a table drawn in some of the options, to scale in the "existing kitchen drawing". Our kitchen table will stay. It seats 6, even though we are a family of 4. :) It was my grandfathers and I love it, so it isn't going anywhere.

Thank you for bringing up the island hood. We absolutely know that this is a possible problem, but really don't know where else to put the range, since we really want to move the fridge into the primary work area of the kitchen.

You nailed my second concern about option 2 - it is actually why I made the aisle fairly narrow --- hoping to discourage. And can't disagree on your comment about 3.

Very, very open to other ideas.

Perhaps some pictures will help.

Kitchen from table:

Kitchen from dining room door (pocket door)

From hallway

I don't consider 4 1/2' a long distance to carry a pot. map it out on a floor area and you'll see it isnt

bump

anyone else? other layout ideas? additional thoughts about potential problems in the shown layout options? I know it isn't a lot of space (approx. 9x12) but we'd really like to get a great kitchen out of it.

I think we can remove option #3 from contention based on comments so far.

I have a few thoughts..

Swap Fridge and Pantry, as discussed. Put range in upper left CORNER. You may need to close in the FR bar just a little to make it safe, but the wall will be there and as the range comes out it will become farther away from the seaters.

Sink gets pushed as far right as you can. It goes (A) on the DR peninsula or (B) at the upper right of the U with the DW staying to the left on the latter option.

Or, (C) sink with DW to the right gets pushed all the way over and you keep the island instead of making a peninsula. The island could even be on legs to allow seating or casters to make it movable as you wish.

Thank you Erin I am having trouble picturing the range in the corner and am going to see if drawing it out helps me. I don't think I have ever seen this before. I think, other than that, my only concern is losing a lot of what will be my only upper cabinets in the kitchen. If someone recalls a picture of the range in the corner, I would appreciate seeing it.

Thanks

I'm also a newbie - have never posted here before but came looking for ideas for my own kitchen renovation. Your kitchen is similar in layout to mine, though I don't have an island, I have a peninsula in b/w the kitchen and where our table is. I have a longer counter in b/w my lazy susan and range, and then more counter to the left of the range, then my fridge.

I had typed up a whole response to you earlier today but lost it, but coincidentally, I was going to say pretty much the same exact thing as tracie.erin.

This is NOT my kitchen though I absolutely love it but this will give you a visual of having the range in the corner. I would convert my own kitchen to this layout since it's similar to what I have now, but I don't have the width across the sink wall to pull it off w/o taking too much space from my eating area. She also has a pantry where your fridge currently is and a fridge where your pantry currently is. She has both an island and a peninsula/bar but her kitchen is wider than yours.

This is my first time posting a picture, so hopefully it will work.

How much room do you have in the new FR? Do you have 6" or 12" to bump the top wall of cabinets into it? That would then give you space to put both the Fridge and Range on the left wall (Range not in corner).

If you can't do that, still put Fridge and Range on left wall with Range as close to the corner as you can. With 6" or 3" filler you should still come out with 12" or 15" between range and that fits NKBA guidelines. See http://www.kitchens.com/Design/Layouts/NKBA-Guidelines.aspx

By the way, I'm sorry I can't come up with some visual layouts for you. I used to use IKEA Planner but the newest version is a bear to deal with!

Here are a few links about the corner range. There is some discussion of pros and cons.

Debdy's:
http://finishedkitchens.blogspot.com/2005/09/debdys-kitchen.html

Sharb's:
http://finishedkitchens.blogspot.com/2007/06/sharbs-kitchen.html

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0122131132664.html

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0216183227754.html

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg1019060411659.html

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0619384121228.html

Minority opinion...G-shaped kitchen View #3...

Not sure how much space you actually have, so am not sure whether my comments are pertinent, but I want to speak to the question of the 4.5 foot opening of the G.

I can see that the refrig. in that position shown in #3 is useful for access from dining room as well as from table area. How large do you foresee this refrig to be? A French door unit won't intrude into the opening quite as much.

We have put in a G kitchen with 51.5 inches from refrig door to the 2 inch overhang on the countertop facing it. It's definitely sufficient. This is not a giant refrigerator, it's a single door modest model of standard depth.

I don't have a proper photo of the room in use yet. Here are two that require some imagination....

A greater concern for me is that your #3 proposed plan has a long distance from the table to the sink--this will be an irritant for example when milk spills and you need to trot between table and sink. If the opening were closer to the range wall, it would be more efficient for daily activities, a short-cut to the sink and the range. Solution could be a good-sized movable cart instead of the short arm of the G. You have the pass-through countertop area by range, so you're very open in the kitchen and since you haven't specc'd out a stool seating countertop or for a second sink, you don't need the short arm of the peninsula for the reasons we had in our design.

My daughter has a small cart in her mini-kitchen and it really helps direct the work flow because it can be repositioned for the changes in activities and personnel. Your G is much narrower than mine at 6.5 feet across, so I am not sure how well this would work, but it's an idea. (In our old kitchen we had 4 feet of walkspace between parallel countertops in the 8 foot wide corridor kitchen--the DW door bisected the room when it was open--but it was very efficient for a single person.) You have an extra half-foot and even that has no restriction at the DW end.

More impertinence: If you can afford it and if it works, I'd recommend a second sink.

Thanks for all the great pics! It would certainly solve any problems that go along with putting a hood over the peninsula, but I'm just not sure that I can give up the amount of space required to do the corner range. Also, I was actually getting pretty comfortable with how that left wall was turning out as the "breakfast/snack" zone. I imagined this would be the place that I would prepare the kids breakfast, pack lunches, etc. Everyday dishes in cabinets over head, refrigerator and microwave right there, drawers for utensils, wraps and tupperware, and a nice long stretch of counter to work at.

We do plan on getting a french door refrigerator. And the "G" design was the only one that I imagined finding space for a second sink - probably across from the fridge. It is funny that you mentioned a cart, Florantha because DH actually requested that when I was drawing up the first U-shape layout. Apparently he wants his own personal prep area. ;)

The counter seating will actually be at the bar behind the sink. There will be no upper cabinets above that bar, we envision being very open into the new family room, which is why I anticipate needing a column - that space is now a covered porch. It is not big enough for me to take any away for the kitchen, especially since I want to be able to put existing furniture out there, not buy all new (except the bar stools). We do hope to put a beverage fridge out next to the bar, as well as cabinets for wine and beer glasses. We used to entertain frequently, but not really since we moved into this house, and would like to have a good space for that.

The table to the right is our kitchen table. As for a large space for crafts, etc. the table is where I would most likely do that and is also where the kids sit and do homework. And while I love to cook, baking is not something I do often. As for the deeper expanse of counter top that beuhl mentioned as the benefit of an island, keep in mind that I am under 5' tall. I don't like trying to stretch myself over a deep expanse of counter, rather I tend to spread out side to side. I guess that is why I am trying to find designs with long stretches of counter.

Whew! Did I answer everyone? Give insight into our needs? I really appreciate all the time everyone takes to think about this stuff, so thank you.

I am thinking of the possibility of putting the refrigerator in the spot where I will need a column. Don't know if I like the idea of breaking up the open expanse to the family room with a 36" but am trying to think outside the box. If I come up with anything, I will try to post it tomorrow.

Thanks again.

bump