No expert here and I may be reading your plan incorrectly, but it looks like people will have to go through the living or dining room to get to the kitchen. I think I would get rid of the closet at the bottom of the stairs and make that an entry to the kitchen. You could do 2 small closets on each side of the front door.

The peninsula with seating for two next to the fridge seems a little awkward to me. What is next to the dishwasher? I can't make out what it says in the box. Assume the rest are pantries? Just want to be clear on what everything is.

Lots of better gurus here who will have great suggestions....

Thanks for your quick response! You're right about the closet - this is a slightly older version of the plans and we had already nixed that closet to have a walkway straight into the kitchen. We'll do coat racks by the front door probably.

Next to the DW is a section marked "appliances," which is not where I'm likely to have them. I"m not a fan of garages, and I think I'll shift them down between the sink and cooktop, where they will just sit out in the open (gasp!). I think we'll have some open shelving - probably no upper cabinets.

The shallow wall of cabinets on the left is floor-to-ceiling pantries (12" deep) although we might try bump out the middle section to 16" or so and have a coffee bar in the middle with some glass cabinets above to break up the look.

The 6 larger cabinets in the eating are are meant to be "lockers" for each or us, a concession to me since the architect can't give me a real mud room (the driveway and entry are on this side of the house).

The awkward peninsula is why I posted. What could improve it? I like idea of a child perching right in the kitchen with me while I cook, but we're a family of six so no meals would happen here. Would it be better with nothing there? With no upper cabinets, though, I think I need the storage. And I like the idea of this (maybe butcher block?) space for rolling out doughs and making pasta.

The peninsula is also adding a spot for the fridge and the broom closet. But broken off, and shifted into the kitchen to become an island, I think it makes the overall space too cramped.

Thanks for your help. Can't wait to hear from other gurus! :-)

Are those lockers down by the dining counter (I assume that is the one you are saying will be a table)? Do you homeschool? Everything about the layout seems to be creating a long narrow "bowling alley" with traffic all funneled into your work zone.

I don't see how an island could work. But you need to post a measured drawing with dimensions for people to really be able to make suggestions on alternatives. They'll need all interior dimensions, including any doorways and windows (and their frames, can't put cabs over those). Plus location of water, gas, or any "structural issues" like you mentioned in your op.

Then give us your must haves (dbl ovens, the lockers?) and people will go from there.

Good luck, it looks like a difficult space, but there are people here that seem to do wonders with difficult spaces.

How about you move the fridge over to where you have appliances labeled. Then move the island over towards the ovens. That would preserve walkways around the island, have the island as a landing spot for the fridge, and put the fridge out of the traffic pattern for last minute items needed at the dinner table.

Yikes! We like to bowl, and are hoping for hardwood floors, but I'd like the metaphor to end there. I don't homeschool; the lockers are meant to be our cubbies - where we stash shoes (we don't wear them in the house), bags, coats. (We're in the NE and really need something like this.)

Does this drawing have what's needed? It is indeed difficult space because it's a poured concrete house and the exterior walls (some of which will become interior) are stucco and super thick. The opening between the kitchen (former dining room) and eating area (former porch) will be achieved with a massive header. The rest of the walls can't really come down.

I want a big (prob. 33") stainless sink, some solution for our stuff at the rear entrance (the lockers/combo mud room), an easy way to be part of the action of the house when I'm cooking. I'm really not wedded to anything else having already given up on ideas like double DWs, prep sink, etc. due to lack of space. I just want a well laid out, functional kitchen. Thanks for your thoughts.

I can't say that I like that peninsula extending into the breakfast nook. Having a regular kitchen table there would allow you more flexibility in seating and give better flow.

I don't like the peninsula in the breakfast nook. I think you might become tired of it rather quickly, too. What if you use a table that you can push up to the edge of the counter? That would give you more flexibility and you could choose the height you like...or change it (or the entire layout) if you decide you'd rather try something else.

Would this be an option? {{gwi:1434537}}From Farmhouse plans

Oops! Just read more carefully...and realized you are using a table. As for the peninsula or island, an island might be better for flow, but probably not enough space. My other concern is that you have four kids and two stools. I can see this becoming a problem.

Do the cubbies have to go in the breakfast room? What is that trellis area, behind the family room? Could that be a mudroom? That might solve some storage issues and allow you to have a prep sink by the fridge. Do you need to keep the living room/breakfast room entrance centered? If not, that might give you a nicer wall for snacks, coffee area, etc.

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Mon, Oct 21, 13 at 13:29

Your drawing does not seem to be to scale, or I just can't figure out what each square represents . . . 4.5"? And people would need door widths and window widths (including the moldings) as well as how far they are from the floor if that might be an issue. Plus portions of wall, like that section between the living room and dining nook entrances. Since you are on concrete, is there water and gas already plumbed in, or will you be digging and trenching no matter where things go? I know it would take a tiny scale or a really big piece of paper, but including the new breakfast nook would help too.

The bowling alley affect is being created by the combination of lockers, peninsula and rectangular table all parallel to each other through both spaces.

Is the entrance into the nook the primary way your family enters and leaves the house? And is the "proposed family room" the primary hang out space?

I have to pick the kids up at school, but I will try to think about your space more, and bump this thread in the meantime so gurus might see it.

I'm no expert, but if the opening to eating is 6' 9", having the fridge and also cabs on the window wall would leave you with a very narrow space between them (less than 3'). Also, I don't think the cooktop wall with 8.5' could be the way the architect drew.

Thanks to you all for looking and thinking about my problem - so helpful!

scrapbook - I think your idea of possibly moving the fridge location might be the key to re-thinking this, but I worry that it will visually block the connection between the two rooms if it lurks in the area where it is now, or just across from that. I agree, though, that it needs to be close to where we eat. Ideas?

lavender_lass - I love the picture you posted and that is sort of the look I want - white with wood floors. This is a 1910 house in New England and that traditional/country style is a winner! You were also wise to spot that trellis area. I'd LOVE to turn that into a mud room and solve many of my problems, but it changes the exterior footprint of the house (read $$) so we have to stay away. (It's also lovely, with wisteria dripping down over a trellis.) You are giving me the thought to raise that with my architect again, but I think it's a no-go.

The entrance between the Breakfast room and the Formal living room is fixed. That's a load-bearing, formerly exterior wall. We might be able to widen it slightly (if no lockers), but it must remain centered.

Controlfreak - SOO sorry! My kids' graph paper is metric (we live in Europe and are managing this renovation - in a house that we've never lived in - from abroad!) I have downloaded some free inch-based paper and re-graphed everything (but I hope the scan of the A4 paper I used works). I hope I got it right this time and that some more creative ideas will emerge. We have to move so many structural elements, that we don't have to worry about plumbing/gas.

Our primary entrance to the house will be straight into the breakfast room (which is why the lockers - an attempt for it to do double-duty as a mud room). The driveway (and detached garage) are off that side of the house. The family room will be the hang out area, computer/TV, playroom.

Sena, see if the new dimensions make sense now. It's an blank slate!

Thanks again! Grazie!!

And because a picture or two is worth a thousand words - this is the current dining room that will become the kitchen (the window on the left will be replaced and raised to accommodate counters). Both windows will have nice set-back space for extra-deep counters in front of them. The window you can barely see to the right is where the header will go in to open to the new breakfast room (and on to the family room, etc.)

and here's the sun porch as it exists now, looking out towards the backyard (and way back there the garage!) Where the minivan is parked is how we will enter the house 95% of the time. The grills will be replaced with floor-to-ceiling windows.

Thanks, that explains things! How stressful this must be for you.

Anyway, the measurements explain a lot, and I'm guessing that the reason your architects drawings seem so off is because they aren't exactly to scale. For example, the lockers as drawn would seem to be over 2 ft. deep. That was done to line up with the fridge, but the fridge location isn't a good one anyway, so unnecessary. Eighteen to 20" deep should be adequate.

I also question your range wall. Are you keeping that window? Are you certain you will be allowed to have a cooktop under it? And even if you do, it would be right in the corner, which seems uncomfortable to me. I would consider closing up the window and centering a range on that wall, or putting the range to the immediate left of the window framing. That would leave you about 2' to the left of the range (no ovens, sorry) which is not ideal, but adequate and not so small as to be unsafe with little ones running through.

I also picture a pie shaped island. Like this:

[

[Contemporary Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by Washington General Contractors Artwork

That would be with minimum aisles of 42" from counter edge to counter edge. (counters will be about 25.5" deep over standard 24" deep cabinets.) I don't think I'd do stools though. Maybe open shelves for decorative items or even baskets of toys/craft supplies, depending on child ages.

I'd put the fridge where you currently show an appliance garage, as another pp suggested. Then DW and sink (probably a small 12" cab or drawers will fit too) under the large window as shown now. I have MW drawer, and love it. If you are open to the idea, I'd put it in the island across from the sink area. That is a good location for heating up leftovers out of the fridge, but depending on how you use one, another location might be better for you.

One more thing. I don't think I'd run the lockers on the wall to across from the fridge, if you don't absolutely have to. Technically, you have room, I think. But it creates a tunnel affect between the kitchen and nook/mudroom space. And I get the feeling you'd actually like that to feel open so you can communicate and keep eyes on the kids. Perhaps just hooks on the wall, or just a storage bench.

Anyway, I hope you can picture what I'm thinking of in my mind. I tried to print out your last drawing and put it all on paper, but it didn't print well for me. If I get the chance, I might try to upload it into photobucket and see if I can do it there.

BTW, I was sketching and typing while you were posting so I totally missed those. Sorry if questions were answered before I posted my latest response!

In small kitchens, ranges are sometimes more efficient than a separate cooktop/oven arrangement. If you use a range, the fridge can go where the oven is currently drawn. Since you are planning an doorway from the main entry, and will have a view directly into the kitchen, you might consider a pretty dish hutch where you have the appliance area labeled. It's next to the DW, so would be very functional, as well as a lovely focal point.

For many years I used a drop-leaf table as an extra landing space/work space in my kitchen, which is 13.5x13.5. You could use a moveable island/table sized for the available open space, in the same way. It doesn't necessarily need to be on wheels--a small table isn't that hard to move. I kept a stool in the corner, for those times when someone needed a perch.

Extra deep counters would work well, but I'd caution against keeping appliances on the counter between sink and cooktop--that will be your prep space, and anything except possibly a coffee maker or toaster in the far corner will interfere with prep.

You mention a coffee bar on the pantry wall. I'd consider locating the MW there, too, near the fridge (if you move the fridge as I suggested) to make a snack center, which will keep grazers out of the main work area.

I'm not one of the designers, but I have a similar layout in my kitchen--in an old house, with additions all around. Good luck!

Since I see you are changing that window anyway, I would either get rid of it, or see if you can do a window on each side of a centered range. Similar to what Lavender posted above. You have beautiful light in the room, so I understand if you are hesitant to lose it all together, but I think it would help immensely for practical reasons. (safety, code, upper cab storage)

Also, the more I look at my own sketches, I am a bit worried about dish storage. You might have room for a narrow cabinet next to fridge for glasses, but instead of a MW drawer, dish storage drawers would probably be more practical opposite the dishwasher (if you can fit the island I am imagining.) In that case, I'd probably put a small one in a cabinet to the left of the range.

I love wisteria....that will be so pretty, when it's blooming :)

Do you use and/or need a formal living room and dining room? Or are they just the way the house is laid out...and is there anything past the family room (end of drawing)?

If I may ask...what is the layout of the house, now? There are a lot of 'proposed' areas, so I'm wondering if you could post a current floor plan. I have an idea, but a little more information would be very helpful.

And did you say the current sunroom (nice windows!) is on slab? Is the rest of the house over a basement or crawl space?

She has an idea! Another one is sketching! I can't tell you have happy your messages make me - just knowing others (who love kitchens & design) are out there to bounce ideas off of is wonderful. There's a lot here already to respond to (loving the pie-shaped island!) but I wanted to get the current floor plan posted. More thoughtful responses tomorrow . . .

The current plan is oriented the same way as the OP. You can see the service kitchen on the side of the house. When we saw the house, I said I would only consider it if we could pull the kitchen into the core of the house and open things up. Removing the back stairs would make way for some changes here, and another positive cascade on the second floor. The only part on a slab is the current sunroom. The rest has a full basement, except for the family room (earlier addition) which has a crawl space.

Thanks for your input all!!

This is my idea...

The living room is on the other side of the house and the dining room/library is the room with the pathway through it. I added some bookcases and a couple of comfy wing chairs and ottoman, for reading. They can be used as host and hostess chairs, when you need more seating at the table. I do love a fireplace by the table.

Kitchen is now in the family room, with an island and prep sink. Banquette for the kids and easy access to their playroom. This will have lots of light...I showed it with seating, but you could use it for whatever the kids want to do at the time.

The big change is the new powder room, laundry area, closet and extra pantry/shoe storage, etc. in the former dining room. Probably way too much money, but this is what I would do with the space :) {{gwi:1958955}}From Kitchen plans

And a few dining room with fireplace pictures... {{gwi:1958956}}From Dining rooms
{{gwi:1958957}}From Dining rooms
{{gwi:1958958}}From Dining rooms

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Tue, Oct 22, 13 at 22:21

I agree with lavendar that having the dining room where the LR is, would be better. I think, you don't even have to resize the proposed DR to use it as a LR, since the dimensions of proposed DR seem nearly equal to the usable area (for armchairs, couch etc) in the LR. I believe LR can be used more efficiently as a DR, and you might consider having the big table there, and use a smaller one in the eating/mudroom area.

As to mud/eating, for shoes and boots I think you should have storage near the entry, instead of using the area in front of the FR door. Otherwise, it would be very hard to keep that busy passage clear.

You can have a cubby bench or a tall 12-15" deep tall cab b/w entry and FR doors if you are willing to add a feet or two long wall there. Maybe even a coat rack could be considered to be used temporarily, until the coats dry (I don't think louvered doors for coat cabs would be a good idea so near to cooking, if that's what you're planning for the cubbies in the layout). Having a coat rack may also be useful when kids bring home friends.

For the whole area, you might consider something like below.

If you decide to have no wall oven, then fridge can be on the sink wall. But with wall oven I believe it would be better to keep it away from the traffic way and have the fridge across from the sink wall. Between oven/fridge and eating area you can have a 9" deep tall cab facing the eating area for brooms.

Trash could be next to sink or after the corner.

Something like this for landing for fridge and MW if a tall cab is used.

Wow - some big ideas here. Thanks all!!

The biggest first - lavender - thanks so much! This is almost more than I can take in at first and will need to be printed and studied. I like lots of the concepts here, especially just blasting away all the walls to created the jumbo LR (which is actually just about the size of the existing FR on the other side - which got me to thinking about just KEEPING the kitchen where it is, darn it all!!). Of course, money is a factor and I don't know enough about how this impacts the bottom line . . .

We had long considered putting the kitchen in the FR but I wasn't sure it was truly big enough for a generous eat-in area and I'm not a fan of the banquette (we live in a rental and I have smashed a table into our kitchen here and we are all tired of climbing over each other).

We had already been thinking of the DR as a semi-library so I love where you're going there and having a FP in the same room is only a bonus! (Although we do like to sit around the FP and tell stories, so I'm not sure about giving up that . . . )

It's all keyed to your question of what spaces we need and how we really live in them. We are just past the ages of toys scattered everywhere - and this is our forever house, in theory. So I want to design for the teenage years but without worrying too much about empty nesting, which is 15 years away. It's also about flow, and maximizing light.

The idea of a play/family room off the back is interesting, but I wonder if it would feel squandered to the kids. And I love the laundry concept (although I think there's a way to claim back some of that space lost to the hallway). We had been assuming we'd need to keep it in the basement (or cleverly squeeze it in upstairs) because it's too small where shown on the drawings. I have to mull this all over . . .

Back to the concept of the kitchen where designed: Controlfreak's idea of shallower lockers is true, esp. if the fridge location is changed. I don't envision actual lockers, but nice cabinetry which would have doors to shut away the mess. With those floor-to-ceiling windows, we wanted to keep furniture away from window walls, which is why they ended up there. (Still dreaming of a true mud room.)

I'm open to MW below, but I also like mama_goose's idea to put it by the pantry/coffee station, esp. if we relocate the fridge, which is an idea with merit. I can see why you don't call yourself a designer MG - you're an artist! Your kitchen is a DIY masterpiece! We did our last one DIY and I'm actually relieved at this stage to be getting help . . . but it's no less stress to get the details right. But it's not really stressful - more of a fun, exciting, wonderful opportunity!! Your idea of a moveable table is really spot-on and could be just the thing.

If I leave the range where it is, I think it could stay under the window, by code (according to architect). Because of the deeper counters, plus the window ledge, it would be extra deep and with a good exhaust, shouldn't be a cleaning problem. A bigger problem is our unique stucco exterior that makes replacing/shortening a window easier (add a window box, or detail) but not taking one out/moving it completely - it could never be matched. The drawings might be slightly off because the range should be comfortable centered in front of the window (window and cooktop would both be around 33"). But I'm open to shifting it all to the left - just wonder if it's getting far from everything else (if I leave the primary triangle as is, not if I shift the fridge location). Range is fine too - I've actually never had anything else!

As I was about to post this, I saw something else had come in. Off to process some more . . . .
Grazie!!

Sena - Thanks for much for this great drawing and thinking. If the kitchen/breakfast nook stays in this location, this is a really nice sketch. What program did you use? I really need to get something . . . maybe you could share the file with me?

That island is plenty big - so I think the answer is definitely ISLAND not peninsula - for flow. And I still like the pie-shaped concept, to ease flow around and away from the cooking zone (and allow room for another prep zone too). I'd need to sketch that to see if the pantry area is compromised, especially if it's also a prep zone of its own for coffee.

Chucking the locker/cubbies would gain all sorts of room for more storage/kitchen stuff - and the fridge sliding down the wall does open up the kitchen space. (Cabinet depth at least, if not french door - we are planning to re-use all appliances)

My big hesitation is that blocky dbl oven (or fridge - as many of you have suggested) on the right at the doorway between the two rooms. If I am working at the sink (when am I not? :-), I want to be able to look to my right and visually connect with those sitting there. I think I have to go with no cabinetry (or shallow uppers/shelving) there (pretty, a mama-goose noted - you can see it from the main entry). I like the brooms in the eating area, but will think of some other way to squeeze that in.

Mud room - low shoe cubbies/benches might be the only solution along the back wall. If they are open, they will hardly block light. Plus some combo of cabinetry and cubbies.

I really have to think about the DR/LR flip-flop. Would posting this on remodeling make sense too - since there are bigger issues than just the kitchen?

Thanks again to all for weighing in.

cucinamia, thank you! Considering a stove beneath a window reminds me of a couple of GW favorites, Angie_DIY and Cotehele. I'll link a thread with Angie's stove and window, in which she links to a thread about stoves under windows, which includes Cotehele's. :)

I'll also include a link to a thread about dish hutches in the kitchen (which also includes Cotehele's)--there are others you can find with a google search.

Here is a link that might be useful: scroll down to Angie_DIY

The program I used is called Home Designer Suite 2012. I guess I can e-mail the file to you. It's 4528K. I believe the program was around USD 80.- when I bought it. There's a free trial version, but you can't save your files.

http://www.chiefarchitect.com/products/trial.html

As to having ovens on the sink wall, (if you are not very short) maybe you can consider a shorter cabinet just for one of the ovens and the MW and have a range, or use a base or another tall cab for the other oven. I think, Alno in Europe has 156 cm high cabs.

Below one has a full height cab but if the ovens are installed like that you can still have shorter cab.

Here is another alternative. I switched the range to the long wall and put a prep sink next to it. Sochi has a prep sink right next to her cooktop and likes the arrangement. (I’ll post a link to her kitchen below.) You can also use the faucet as a pot filler on the stove if you get an articulating or pull down faucet. This arrangement gives you over 4 feet of counter space to the right of the prep sink for preparing food. The food goes from the fridge to prep zone to range easily.

I just realized I forgot to draw in a trash pullout. You may be able to have one in the prep sink cabinet if the plumber puts in the pipes carefully so they don’t waste a lot of cabinet space, otherwise, the trash pullout can go to the right of the prep sink and still leave you with a wide drawer base next to it.

The clean-up sink, dishwasher and dish storage drawers are together on the other wall, close to the dining room.

Next to the fridge, I would use upper and lower cabinets (probably for dry food storage like cereal, etc.) and a counter. The counter gives you a place to put groceries as they go into the fridge, a landing spot for hot food coming out of the microwave, and can also hold your coffee maker and toaster. This gives you a nice zone for making quick breakfasts or snacks. The microwave can be a MW drawer under the counter, or a small microwave on a shelf above the counter. You could even mount a microwave or Advantium over that is intended to be an over-the-range unit over the counter under a shorter upper cabinet. Put a 24" deep cabinet over the fridge with vertical dividers to store cookie sheets, serving platters, large cutting boards, etc.

I drew the cabinets 28” deep because it was easier to use 7 squares. 25.5” is more typical with a 24” cabinet base and 1.5” counter overhang. The 44” aisles could also shrink down to 42” and still be comfortable if you want to more the island a little closer to the cabinets on those 2 walls.

The 36” x 52” island was drawn with a 24” deep x 40” wide base cabinet, with a 12” deep overhang for seating on 2 sides. The base cabinets can shrink in depth and/or width if you want deeper overhangs for seating and/or wider aisles behind the counter stools.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sochi's prep sink next to cooktop

Oh, I like Kay's design! That's nice :)

Hi Lavender_lass; I'm glad you like it. I am having fun playing with Paint now. I wish I had learned to use Paint to modify graph paper drawings when I was designing my kitchen, as it would have saved me a lot of time doing new hand sketches from scratch every time I wanted to try a different idea.