Hi Cosmo. I wondered where you went. Sorry you're sick.

Ummm..I need to be honest. Get yourself some good walking shoes. You're going to need them to walk 10 feet back and forth from the prep area and sink to the fridge. Oh, and to the MW also.

Think clearly about the style of fridge as you won't have any landing space for things going in/out in front of the fridge. You'll need to use the small counter next to it.

Don't feel bad about changing your mind. We all do it along the way. Layout is the hardest to get finalized because it is THE most important part of the whole process.

Hmmm... I think I like your layout option #339 better.

I'm sorry, but I also disagree that this is a better use of your space, in terms of efficiency and multiple workspace options. As Breezy pointed out, it's a long way from fridge to sink, and you just don't get the flow, around and through, with a peninsula the way you do with an island. I also still think that if you want the peninsula the overhang should end at the wall jog, not extend into the bay.

In my previous post I got the feeling that people preferred the peninsula option. More open. I could move the peninsula 1 foot toward the dw and then the overhang is within the kitchen area. For the island: people commented that the aisles would be tight, it felt like a traffic median in the middle of the room. So I was second guessing myself too. Fuzzy brain doesn't help. Then reading more after rhome's lovely 3d rendering sealed the decision or so I thought on the island. Then just second guessing myself when it comes time for the final decision. And went with the peninsula because it opened things up and allowed for seating. And the cabinet designer seemed to prefer the peninsula.

Breezygirl -thanks. Disappeared for a bit! To clarify: yes, there is a small landing countertop next to the fridge.

I just don't know if I'm mixing up want with what works. I have an island now. I hate it. But the cooktop is on it and the ovens are on the other side and it is 8 feet long. I run around it All. Day. Long. This option would shorten it quite a bit too.

I've tried to envision what I like, but of the problem is I go off of other pictures and I'm drawn to those kitchens with an island. But it is more the shape of the island and the fancy chairs and use of corbels, etc. than the practicality of it. So shall I mix it up a little?

But I wouldn't have the nice pretty glass cabinets into the DR. And the sink run cabinets wouldn't wrap around the corner - the space there is too small. In my drawing I kept making both sides of the eating area slider the same size. They aren't. The side where I'd like the wrap around cabinet, the outer wall is only 17 inches from the corner to the door.

Now, we are under a time crunch and with the kids starting back to school in a month, I'd like to take advantage of getting everyone out of the house. And the contractor can start work around Aug 1, we can leave for a mini vacation and be out of the house for the demo and floor install.

This is really spread out.. I liked rhome's layout at Sun, Jun 12, 11 at 3:05 on your Previous Post link the best. The workpath is a lot more efficient. I also like the shallower pantry she put in.. I have a pantry closet now and it's way too deep and holds TOO much stuff. I never use half of it and have no idea what's in there. I don't think that would change if I had roll-outs in it.

I have your same dilemna and layout and I too constantly question what will work best. I decided to stick with the island layout. The biggest challenge in my layout is aisle widths. In a 14' wide space, it is difficult to have ample aisles. I decided to recess my fridge into the garage and use narrower cabinetry on the fridge wall. Also, I decided to have fridge, beverage center, then pantry along the garage wall. This way, I will have landing space next to the fridge and fridge aligned with the aisle for the range. Also, the water and ice on fridge door will be handy for the beverage center. The con of this plan is that the fridge is far from the eating area, but since I've eliminated so many other obstacles, I feel its a good plan.

Yet, I can't help but wonder whether a penninsula layout would give me the ability to make my eating area bigger. I also can't help but wonder if KDs push the island layout because they sell more cabinets in this larger scale layout. I must have sketched a thousand various layout at this point, so I know how you feel.

Why don't you think of all the real kitchens you have been in (friends, family, neighbors) and really think about the ones that you like best. That has helped me alot since I realized all the "real" kitchens I admire have island layouts. Good Luck! I can't wait to see what you decide!

I'm guessing that with your current layout, you don't have a prep sink in the island and that the fridge isn't placed in a convenient spot. That's why you hate running around it. Its called a barrier island for a reason. Many people tear them out because the kitchen wasn't properly laid out for the island to start with. Your layout isn't functional and replacing it as is without moving the appliances like rhome suggests isn't going to fix the dysfunctional layout.

Rhome knows what she's doing when creating a layout that works for everyday cooking. Sometimes it's hard to see with prejudices we have in our head when we get here.

I understand you wanting to hurry with the project. Please don't rush this planning part. Its crucial. I have had many start date deadlines come and go over the past 18 months with two small children. There were times when it would have been better to start and the GC was breathing down my neck, but I waited to make sure the layout was the very best it could be before beginning. I drew out so many layouts that you wouldn't believe me if I told you. Take some time when you feel better to think clearly about what you want. Did you make a priority list yet? Btw, don't put something like "get rid of island" on it because your current kitchen has a barrier island.

Thanks dilly_ny! You've brought up so many thoughts that I've had!

Honestly, my photobucket account has over 40 layout options I've played with. Wow. I'm just to the point now where I'm overguessing and second guessing. But I want it all! I'm not sure I understand this concept of compromise. But I'm learning - maybe a bit too quickly.

The current layout, obvious design flaws which I'm trying to remedy.

Here is a pic of the option that tracie.erin mentioned. What I don't like about it is the wall that the fridge creates. And the MW doesn't really fit in that spot. But it does leave a bit more room for the aisle on the other side of the island.

Maybe I should state a few appliance options that may dictate some of the layout.
Fridge: originally wanted a Samsung 4 door, but it is deep! 35 inches deep. So I'm leaning towards a counter depth fridge.
MW: speed oven/convection. So I can't really put it up too high because the door swings down.
Range: wanted, really wanted, and Aga based on looks and the fact that I would not need another oven. Yes, I've researched them and know the individual ovens are a bit smaller. However, I wanted a red one because I'm not a big fan of stainless. The cabinets I want are a walnut and the red Aga just gets lost. So considered a ss Aga, but then what's the point? So now leaning towards a cooktop with drawers underneath and a MW speed oven/oven combo on the wall with the fridge. I would also want/ need a countertop landing spot by the fridge and MW.

What if?....I recessed the fridge, MW and that whole wall into the garage a foot or two, to allow more aisle space - especially if I go back to the fridge I wanted that needed to be recessed anyways? I'm still stuck with the corner of the dining room. That corner has a huge solid support beam in it.

Peninsula option: would a small, very small, moveable island make sense? If I moved the peninsula the 1 foot towards the DW...would this help? I guess I was thinking the peninsula would be a great baking area and would give storage for those baking items. Plus all the zones seemed more spread out. Is it really just too spread out? Or does the island plan just makes more sense - especially in terms of cooking zones and practicality?

Hmmmmmm....

You can put fancy corbels and chairs at a peninsula. My peninsula is 40" deep. It comes not quite 5' out from the wall. 24" of the depth is granite countertop with the microwave and corner prep sink in it. the other 16" of the depth is a 5' long dark-stained maple wooden top with shaker style long corbels. Peninsulas don't have to be boring.

Re: The Tracie Erin color layout, next picture going up the thread, I've had a KD tell me to put the fridge in that spot. Yes, I know it works best, easy access to eating area, etc. But I just don't want to walk into the room and look at that big fridge as an inevitable focal point based on the room's entrance. Another cabinet shop designed the room with the fridge and surrounding cabinetry as you show in your 9:41 am post / layout pic shown above. I didn't like that there was no place to put down groceries, as GW calls a landing zone? That realization led me to say fridge, then beverage center / landing zone.

How many feet do you have against the garage, from laundry room corner to the DR support wall that pushes in a foot or two?

dilly_ny...we are so on the same page! too funny! The garage wall is almost 10 feet (118 inches I think). So not very big. The DR corner is just driving me nuts!

Yes, I know blfenton ;-) but for some reason the islands that have them seem to draw me more. Maybe because most pictures show the island length-wise and you can see detailing, whereas a peninsula is often a direct pic so the details get a little lost.

For a peninsula the kitchen is almost too wide. For an island not wide enough. grrrrrrrr

dang mudworm...I can't find layout #339, did you mean layout #338? ;-P

How about recessing the fridge and upper & lower cabinets 18-24" into the garage? Upper & lower cabs can be a beverage center, hutch, or a bench.

Also, if you recess the fridge, you could move the laundry room door over a bit to give you more countertop next to range.

Here are a few pics that helped me decide:
http://www.kempercabinets.com/show_gal/kitchen/index.cfm?rid=8

http://www.wood-mode.com/DESIGN-PORTFOLIO/AMERICAN_CLASSICS/AMERICAN_CLASSICS_N9A_Southampton.htm

I can't find the bench pic I am thinking of, but I know its in the brookhaven catalog. I'll keep looking for it.

And this looks nice for your DR wall cabinetry:
http://www.wood-mode.com/MAIN_SECTIONS_about_wood-mode/main_introduction.asp

recessing might be doable. Wouldn't have the DR wall cabinetry because of a load bearing wall.

So now I'm back to island - similar to pick above: Wed July 19 at 9:41am. However, MW would have a landing spot next to it. Now glass fronted floor to mid height cabinets (the wall that those replace is load bearing).

Good? Move forward with cabinet design in this layout? Gonna pull the trigger. Granted need the cabinet design from the cab co to finalize.

thoughts?

Yes, the peninsula would be contained (countertop overhang) within the kitchen confines using the funky corner jut-outs asdefining lines. Still giving me a full eating area - and lessens slightly the floor space and walking.

I get that the peninsula plan incorporates a lot of walking but I'm worried about the island becoming a barrier like it is now. Unless, I have the fridge or ovens right next to the LR door, then a pantry.

dilemma - if I go with the island, the MW/fridge wall access is now impeded by the island. I was trying to avoid the island as a barrier.

What if I still go with the peninsula and get a moveable antiquey island?

I still want the fridge backed up to the garage. I believe it looks and functions better.

ah yes, thanks rhome, I did have that top pic in here somewhere...

Here is the peninsula cab layout. After wanting a walk-in pantry I now have nothing. Well, no quite. It got moved to the LR.

Now that I've changed the Aga (:'-/) to an induction cooktop I need an oven. So the MW becomes a speed cook/convection plus an oven. Also lost pantry space. hmmmm that island is looking better and better. Part of the problem is the cabinet designer already had the peninsula layout and I think feels that it works just fine. And doesn't want to produce another sketch since I'm so prone to mind changing.

rhome...still the island? Is that island creating a barrier to the ovens?

Either way, I have enlarged the window too...one foot to the right or towards the cooktop/range wall, so instead of a 4-foot window it is a 5-foot bay window.

Island. Sorry. The cabinet designer be d@mned. Get the most functional layout, not one because someone doesn't want to draw again. In my book, that's called lazy. Cab person, I mean.

thank you all! keep it coming. Is the main drawback to the peninsula the distance between appliances?

Yeah, the cd may be d@mned but has good ideas or at least ones that do really sound practical. And is going off of my original wish list. My problem is here at GW, most of you are working from practical experience plus design vs. design aesthetics alone, so I trust your thoughts a little more. ;-)

oh goodie...I'll play devil's advocate so someone will just happen to say the magic word that makes that light bulb appear (no burst) and I can make a decision.

So...
1) My kitchen feels like a bowling alley. Long hallway from one end of the house to another. Island accentuates this. However, in the current layout where the fridge sits and an appliance garage next to it, create a closed feeling wall. Whereas, either plan opening up the space with countertop and cooktop may give an island less elongating power.

2) Seating at an island/peninsula for kids to eat breakfast or do homework or for guests when entertaining. Island works for breakfast. Not so much for homework. Not so much room for guests. But I'm not building the kitchen for guests.

3) Functionality. I don't currently have a triangle. Either plan creates a triangle. Peninsula is more spread out. Both offer separate zones. Island has overlapping zones.

4) Peninsula gives me a bigger work space and I can look outside, towards the dining room, towards the family room. Island I can look at the fridge, mw, oven.

5) Pantry storage: island means I don't have to have a landing spot between the fridge and ovens, so I get a pantry. Peninsula means storing things around the room. Kids snacks and cereals by the cereal bowls, rice and beans by the stove top and a small pantry closet in the laundry.

All in all, when I look at the list it makes the peninsula seem to work. Except for the pantry issue. I don't think I can go from wanting to build space into the garage for a pantry to no pantry.

Still scratching my head trying to decide which one. Or if I go back to one of the plans with a pantry in the garage.

Is that island creating a barrier to the ovens?

A barrier to the ovens from where? I don't think that's an issue, as it's not a place you rush back and forth, like between sink and fridge or stove and fridge. Might depend on where you choose to do your baking prep.

Part of the problem is the cabinet designer already had the peninsula layout and I think feels that it works just fine.

Honestly, this makes me want to pull my hair...or scream...or shake you. (Figuratively speaking and in writing, of course.) You will live with this kitchen for YEARS. You are spending a LOT of money. It should be right. It should be THE BEST it can be FOR YOU. Don't let something go by as 'fine,' and especially if it's someone else's opinion, because you don't want to inconvenience the cabinet guy so that the poor thing has to DRAW some more! It's not like he built all the cabinets and you're asking him to change them all at his expense. Put in perspective, another drawing is well worth it. He doesn't get to make that call. --Unless he'd like someone else to sell and build you the cabinets...

I wrote the other post earlier and just posted it without reading your 'pro peninsula' list. So I'm going to rebut. ;-)
Disclaimer: It's still your kitchen and you should have it the way you want and will be happy to have. These are my views. But make sure you're NOT giving in because it's easier for the cabinet guy.

1) 12 x 15 does not a bowling alley make. ;-)

2) Homework at the table instead of the island? Still very close (in the same room, really), and out of work area and splash zone.

4 and a bit of 3) You say the peninsula gives you more room and a better view, but what will you do at the peninsula? It's not at all handy to the stove, and not so much to the fridge and sink either. Lots of moving things around that I doubt will happen, because we get in a hurry and go to the closest and most convenient spot...and the spot that won't mean dripping all across the floor. But unfortunately, there is a lot of dripping across the floor hazard in that wider spread plan. When I'm working, I look at my project and the people who are working with and around me. Not sure what I could do and gaze out that much, and I sure don't want my back to what's happening in the kitchen, either with helpers or with things cooking.

more on 3) The island has zones on multiple sides and allows quite an extension of the counter to the left of the sink. Much more separation for multiple workers.

5) Pantry storage and cohesive storage is big to me.

Peninsula offers a bigger work space for what? Not for prep or cooking because that will take place b/w sink and range.

Storing pantry items all over the kitchen doesn't make sense to me.

I wouldn't enjoy cooking in a kitchen your size with the peninsula layout. Cooking and prepping over in the corner by the range with my back to the kids and guests at the peninsula would not a happy me make. There is no view there but the wall. And I don't understand the bowling alley concept.

Magic word? Island. Please. I'm out.

Thank you. I'm just torn listening to both designer/cabit designer. There is always a legitimate rebuttal to why the peninsula works better. I think it revolves around the seating and that when I mentioned what I don't like about what I have, I don't have seating. But should that make or break a kitchen? prolly not.

bowling alley is from one side of the house to the other. As I sit in the study looking out the east side of the house I can turn around and see all the way through the house thru the kitchen and into the laundry. It is more than just the kitchen per se. Granted either island or peninsula won't change this view from the study, but in the kitchen it might not feel so elongated.

Bowling Alley

My kitchen just feels so narrow and the island I have now is always in the way - granted it is long too.. And there are three different widths depending on where you stand. Eating area, along the island, and from over the sink to the wall behind the fridge. Main measurement is across the island to the unmovable load bearing wall. 25inch cab+countertop, 45.5 inch walkway, 26.5 inch island, 39inch walkway, wall. = 136 inches is 11.33 feet to work with. Where the fridge goes, that wall goes back 28 inches. Enlarging the island to 30 inches steals room from the aisles. Is a 39 inch walkway ok on one side of the island if I have seating? Should I drop the worry over the seating to realize I just don't have the room and make do with the table?

Excuse the mess

Peninsula Plan - not final, but close

Island - didn't get countertops on and made the island too long, and the fridge should be where the ovens are and the ovens moved down.

Sorry the cabinet maker and designer seem to know layout. They are as sick of me as you all! But I want to make a decision so I can move along with the other choices, and depending on which layout decides a few other factors. If I can get this done then I may feel a bit more confident. yes I am afraid to make my own decisions. Don't ask.

With the narrower walkways, I'm still ok with an island? Can I have seating? Seating with backs to fridge wall? Or seating at the eating area end, open ended island with room for three (one on the sink side, one on the ea side and one on the fridge side - unlike the pic. Out of the way of main traffic flow during cooking. If people are seated, I don't think I'm gonna have much traffic into the laundry ;-)

I see you have stools with no overhang now. Do you feel like the aisle there is too narrow when someone is sitting on the stool. My mother had this set up for years. Then she remodeled her kitchen and put in a 6" overhang! I tried to get her to go for at least 12" (she def had the room) but she got talked into a smaller one by the granite fabricator. Go figure. However, it doesn't bother her one bit. It's better than what she had and it's not really for anyone to sit and have a leisurely meal. More as a perch for someone to have a quick snack or keep her company while she preps and cooks. How would you use island seating? If you're already ok with the aisle width when people are on those stools, then a small overhang might work for you, even though most would say don't do it.

The peninsula, where it is, won't be very useful, except as a place to eat or do homework/crafts/projects etc. Also to bake or set up a buffet. But as part of your everyday workspace, it's in the wrong place. One thing you could do is move the sink closer to the peninsula and have a much larger prep area between it and the range. I think a window over the sink is overrated. I have one in my prep space instead and much prefer it (with the sink just to the right of the window so I can still see outside while washing up, just not directly). I still like the island layout better, but think the peninsula layout could work if the sink is moved to the left.

Hang in there. Take a deep breath, sit back, and hear me out on a few...or several... points... Still offered out of the desire to help you get what's best for you, whether it's island or peninsula:

I'm pretty sure we discussed and figured into exact inches this aisle size/seating thing a thread or two ago? There were reasons for you and the way you'd use the kitchen and island seating, that whatever the seating and aisle size decided then was going to work. I know we are rehashing some things we've been through before and that gets difficult from our side. Have you reviewed those previous discussions lately? It might help you think this through and see what your mindset was at the time, and see if you feel the same, or think you got off track back then.

I don't get the thing about the bowling alley, because, as you've said, the thing you're complaining about is there in both plans. And still will be. I am not seeing how it will look different in the different layout, and why you'd be willing to let that be a big consideration in choosing the best workable kitchen layout.

Seating. If it's that important to you, then it's that important. I honestly don't feel the need to go for the peninsula plan just for that, because the table is just about where your peninsula seating is, distance-wise. I have a table at one end of my 19 ft long kitchen and I don't feel far from it when at the island and stove at the other end. The peninsula, like my table, is out of the loop in terms of workspace. I'm afraid it will only serve as little more than an additional table. You're giving up some pluses, in my opinion, to have it, but maybe they're not pluses, or big enough pluses, to you. I can't decide that for you, but neither should an aggravated cabinet maker's attitude.

You mentioned that your kitchen feels narrow and tight now. THAT is a viable and large factor to consider. However, the proposed island layout is completely different than what you have with the stove in the island, back to back with the sink and dishwasher. The island, like you said, is too long, and on the floorplan, looks too close to the fridge. The oven and microwave are clear around the island from everything. I understand your fears of feeling the same, but I don't think this plan will feel like your current one, since the paths will work so differently. But if it's a claustrophobia type of feeling, I can't promise it will be better.

The peninsula plan is pretty average. Not a terrible plan, but not one with any pizazz or really great features or pluses either.

A couple specific notations about the renderings you've shown last:
1) Looking at the rendering above with the island, the fridge would work best across from the aisle in front of the stove...about in the center, not against the wall, which would have it opening into the doorway. That straight shot from the sink is what kept the fridge in an efficient work path and prevented the island from being a barrier.
2) I am not a fan of diagonal cabinets, especially as shown in the island plan without a regular upper cabinet on the window side. Those diagonals are meant to connect 2 adjacent runs of uppers and if there is not on one side, it's like a connector connecting nothing. They're large and awkward to be open ended like that. But that's cosmetic, and just my opinion.

What seems odd to me is no matter what floor plans we've collectively worked out here until you get one you say you love just as it is, by the time it gets back from a cabinet guy and you post the drawing, things are different. The island is longer, the fridge location is changed, the cabinets are different... Are you making the changes between here and having them drawn up (which would be fine), or are the cabinet people using some sort of 'artistic license' they shouldn't just to put their own stamp on it (which would NOT be fine)?

Breezy and I obviously are pushing for efficient workspaces, with ample amounts of workspace right in the areas where it's needed. Maybe you just need the floorspace. I'm not at all trying to insult you or say your needs/wants are less important than ours...Just different. We sure don't want to talk you into something you won't be happy with, even though we might like it that way. But we don't want the cabinet maker doing that either! You just got away from a GC who was doing that. YOU'RE IN CHARGE HERE. You're the one who has to live with the kitchen after they finish and go home to their own.

Right on rhome I keep forgetting things and rehashing just like you said. You are truly a gem!

Cheri... Those stools have never lived there it was just placement for aisle width.

Pulled the plug and made a decision

Going with the island called the designer who is doing the ordering and now I just need to tweak!

Wow! I didn't see you making the decision so quickly. Good for you. I can't wait to see your final plans, considering my vested interest. P.S. I am glad you decided on the island!

I'm wowed, too. Best wishes. How exciting. I hope it's nothing you feared and everything you hoped and more.

actually, I was at a friend's house. I had brought a bunch of drawings and pictures. Got a general consensus from the group (50/50) and my friend took away my glass of wine, handed me my phone and told me I had to make a decision in order to enjoy the evening. How right she was! Or maybe I just really really wanted that glass of wine. Did I say really?

It came down to the pantry. Need one. And not one in the LR. and rhome you and I are on the same wavelength. I was trying to be a bit of a devil's advocate to have someone talk me into a peninsula and that wasn't happening (thank goodness). You pointed out so many things that I was thinking or concerned about (ie. upper corner cab) that I knew if I couldn't trust my instincts (which were saying island) that I could trust GW!

I've second guessed myself so much that it feels so good to have this decision made. I didn't know if I was drawn to the island because that is what I have now or it was a true preference. But all the pictures in my pile of inspiration pics are island layouts. No brainer you would think!

Now you all can help with the final! Hope to have final cab configurations early next week. And the journey truly begins. I've got most of the other stuff picked out too!

Cheers!

Cabinet designer didn't really take free license, I think he just tried to whip it out without paying attention, mainly just to give me an idea of the layout. But doesn't really work when you don't do it right. Don't know if he had the correct layout either. Obviously the fridge in that location would bring me back to where I am today w/ a barrier. So, as rhome mentioned above I'd move it towards the LR, then the MW. A work in progress. Will update with the new layout from the cabinet designer hopefully early next week.

It is 'taking free license' to NOT pay attention to specifics and guess. Sloppy, and unacceptable.

another week is here....inching toward that final layout.

true rhome, true.

So I did post a new thread regarding island layout. Anyone want to chime in? Looking for ideas on size and style and what would really work in this kitchen.

TIA!