I didn't contribute to your notagalley thread, but I did read it with interest, and I'm reading this thread the same way. I will say, it has been a pleasure to follow the design process of someone who has a clear and firm list of her priorities and doesn't mind being idiosyncratic.

Anyway, my thoughts on the ''range at the end'' of a narrow aisle:
- Designed for a solo cook. Which would be fine with me.
- Presumes you didn't grow up watching too many Psycho type movies, and are okay being trapped at the end of a long dead-end alley, your back turned, listening to the floorboards creeeeaaak closer. Where are you putting the knife block again? Never mind, you sound more hard-headed than that.
- Creates two blind corners. One can be accessed with a clever blind corner gizmo, but you have to devote some of the remaining cabinet run (18''?) to the access door. You may have some things that would use that space well - canning pot and other largish stuff? Other can be accessed from the dining room side, but is a long schlep from the kitchen.
- Neatly solves the traffic aisle problem. I like that.
- Nice long clear counter runs. Cool.
- I'm going to guess, the blind alley layout is not going to be a re-sale ''plus'' - if you care.

I forget--are you able to scootch the entire peninsula down a bit to make room for a lazy susan in that corner? I love mine for pots and pans.

I like it, its identical to a layout I did except this has a 58" aisle. (there is a range hood, its concealed. I don't have pictures of this one completely done.

hi... enjoying your threads, too.

this reminds me of la_jan's kitchen. she said her dh likes to cook on the end in that space.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cooking in a Small U-Shape (la_jan, are you there?)

This layout looks great! We too have been reading these threads with interest.

I realize you are tight on space, but you could consider just forgoing the dead corners. We have 2 similar corners and instead of trying to find clever ways to use them we finally just let them go. Actually that's not entirely true, we put a prep sink in one of the corners.

On the plus side the two adjacent cabinets don't have to be compromised with clever access techniques. For example you can have drawers.

You're "locked in" length is only 12' and that has an open-area peninsula. My kitchen before was an 11'x9 1/2" U-shaped kitchen surrounded by walls and I never felt hemmed in. You have 11' of uninterrupted counter space - be still my beating heart. I loooove uninterrupted counter expanse.
I think with your all-over plan and wishes you have a great plan. I too have followed this thread and your Notagalley 1, 2 and 3 versions and I like this one.

Speaking of uninterrupted counter what are you going to use for your counters?

I am glad you extended the countertop outward but I am a little worried about convenient access from the front of the drawers, unless you moved the sink counter farther into the dining room (or made the overhang narrower, which I think mught be problematic). Can you still pull out a drawer while standing in front of it and bend down to get the stuff from the bottom drawer without hitting your fanny on the opposing bank of drawers, or feeling crowded? How wide would be the actual space between counter runs?

Also, as I looked at the picture of the range at the end of the aisle, I realized that cleaning the oven would be a nightware with no access from the side when the door was open.

I guess, my honest opinion is that I would sacrifice one of the 36" cabs (probably the one farthest from the fridge) to move the stove there. (You could get it back by having a 36" cab on the short wall.)

If I recall from your earlier post you had 54" on one side and 60" on the other, plus the stove. That means if you have 72" (2 X 36") of cab between stove and fridge, you could would have 42" of remaining wall space to use up. Assuming a "normal" counter depth of 25.5 or 26" (24" cabs plus overhang) along the short wall, you'd have 15-16" of additional cab or access to blind corner gadget. You could use that in a variety of ways: make short end counter deeper; make a tall thin cab slot near stove for tall flat stuff or oils and spices; you could also use it as a cab and access the blind corner from the short end. Or a combination of the above. (Remember you have to have a few inches of filler at on each side of an inside corner to allow for handle clearances.)

I think what makes me like this idea better is the tighter proximity of fridge>sink> stove for ordinary cooking, and also I like having the counter going around the corners of the U and not broken up so much by the stove. It looks to me like it gives you more useable space for the grain mill and standing mixer than the way you have it drawn now. I think 6 feet of prime prep space on the left of the stove with a clean sweep to the right and back around to sink sounds better than the stove one the short end design. Having an unbroken swathe of a coubter going around the corners means it will be more functional. With counters on either side of a stove placed on the short end you will not be able to use them as expansively, meaning they will become dead spaces. You can't afford dead counter space anywhere in your kitchen. And even using them as parking places for your grain mill and mixer wouldn't be so hot because a) they will get spattered by cooking grease meaning they'll need to be wiped down all the time and b) I think you should have "regular" prep space beside the stove and move the special stuff a little ways away.

Since your space is so compact, I think you would benefit a great deal from a taking the trouble to set up an actual sized model (perhaps cardboard "counters" on sawhorses) and laying down paper to indicate positions for stove and sink and DW. Then walk through your bread and preservation tasks.

If you found you needed more "rump room" between the long counters, you could still have a deeper counter along the short end where your bread making work could be done and just go with a regular depth on the other two runs. In that case, with such a short run, paying the up charge for extra deep cab and drawers might be worth it.

I am glad you came back with a new iteration. I was worried that we might have scared you away!

Are you planning to have any uppers?

L

Here is a semi-ridiculous idea for blind corners.

http://www.the-office.com/summerlift/liftspecs.htm

These are used to build motorized lifting cabinets - that rise magically from the base cabinet. I believe they are de rigueur for international supervillians like Blofeld in their undersea lairs. You don't want the missile controls just sitting out for everyone to see, how tacky.

johnliu!! I was just trying to figure out how she could rig some sort of lift in that corner. Maybe a dumbwaiter. Blofeld, indeed. But with all those upper cabinets, where is she going to put the Really Big Map?

rosieo - Is the rendering truly to scale? Because I think there will be a problem having the range butt directly up against the return counters on both sides. In the kitchen Pal showed, there is 12-15" on either side of the range before the counter turns. You won't have that space. In Marcolo's photo, it looks like the range is 36", with a few inches of filler on either side. Is your range a 35" or a 30"? I would take liriodendron's advice and mock up your plan and see how workable it would be to have the stove at the end of a "chute", so to speak.

oh, and there's willtv's terrific kitchen, too. :)

he has his range at the end, and i think maybe one side is slightly shallower, too.

Here is a link that might be useful: willtv's finished kitchen

Ok I've taken up drinking now. That helps. :) Seriously, thank you guys. You're tough professors but I'm getting a really good education here.

I didn't think about having to clean the oven. Or the big dead space next to the range. Or the Psycho thing. (and thanks for that visual, lol.) Only an insane person would try to break INTO this nuthouse.

So, how's this? {{gwi:1868248}}From kitchen for KF

I'm willing to give up the blind corner to avoid having to deal with the super susan thing. Had one once and I hated having to squat down and rummage around in it for stuff. I'd rather have the 36" drawers. The other blind corner I'll just turn the drawers out to the dining room and store napkins, placemats, etc.

I can still pull the short wall cabinet out to make a deeper countertop and use it for a baking center.

Yep, I'm definitely going to make a mock up and try it out, that's a great suggestion.

What to make the countertops out of? I dunno, haven't got that far. Ditto with the uppers. But geeze, after this - those will be easy decisions, right? :)

RosieO -

I like it!

Having 6 feet of primary prep between fridge and stove w/ your sink just a pivot away seems very grand to me. Especially with the additional 6.5 feet of counter wrapping around towards the sink. Both runs are quite generous, without being divided up so that one is just barely OK and the other is sort one and a half times great. And since they are just a step or so away from each other I think it will feel like you are completely surrounded by counters.

I wonder if you will find yourself prepping while facing the other room, or over between the stove and fridge. Maybe you'll be plating at the stove counter? Working out what you're likely to be doing in each area has a lot to do with what you store where. Ideally things should be just at hand where they are used. It's important to be willing to have some duplication of small items (measuring spoons, for instance) and also to be willing to divide up sets if parts are commonly used for different tasks. For instance store regularly-used pieces of your dish set close in, but keep the platters and soup tureen elsewhere.

Is that wall (behind stove) an exterior one? If so you could have an exhaust fan w/o fancy ducting. That was a big driving force for me - the thing I wanted most!

I wouldn't give up on having the super susan thing-y, some are quite useful, even swing out to meet you. They can get pricey, though. I recommend you survey the possibilities before just boxing the corner in. (I found very complex examples at Lowes and HD, and other cabs places. They love to show them off as I think they make a mint on them. Still your cabs are not complex and you're planning expensive pantry cabs so maybe a well-designed SS might be a good splurge.) Even if it's not your daily access space, it might make great storage for special stuff.

I like that the sink and stove aren't directly across from each other - less bumping if someone else is in there with you.

After you've made the mock-up for large scale placement of appliances and sink, the next steps are individual cab spec -ing, including uppers. I was wondering if you might like a diagonal glass front cab in the corner to right of stove to lighten things up with other uppers having solid doors. You could also do some open shelves.

Do you use a MW? Where are you planning for it? Do you keep a coffee maker on the counter? Or toaster?

Did you expand the short end counter to a 30" depth?

Can you make a measured drawing on graph paper to double check cab and aisle clearances?

Now, as you begin to grapple with this particular layout, you should expect that you'll find some problems appear. Just keep them on the backburner, for now. Write 'em down and go on to see how the other parts fit. Later, you'll be able to double back and re-jigger the arrangement to fit more in. Keep in mind that you could munch up a few inches from one of the 36" cabs and add it to the 6-8" cab if that gives you better utility.

Once I had a good working layout, I took colored markers and drew my pathways over many meal prep scenarios. I used different colors to indicate if I was bringing food from storage to sink to prep, or transferring food from prep to pot, or pot to plate and serving. This helped me see graphically not only where I was moving, but what I was doing while moving. That helped me iron out few additional wrinkles.

OK, and where's your trash and recycling (and compost if you do that)? Under the sink?

And once you've worked out the daily meal prep, you'll have to think through weekly baking tasks, and all the preservation tasks as well. It all seems like a lot of work and it's tempting to just say "OK, I've got a pretty good layout, the rest will just work itself out." While it will work out, you will forgo the chance to make it even better by thoughtful analysis and tweaking so it really, really rocks.

I'm eager to hear how the full-scale mock up feels once you're standing in it. (I used sawhorses and old plywood for counters and left mine up in the garage for a week or more, so I had ample time to play in it.)

HTH,

Liriodendron

Rosie,

I clicked on your link to enlarge it and found the other plans in your album. Is this new construction? Could you eke out a few more inches from the store room to add to the kitchen space? Even 3 or 4 inches would make a significant difference in the kitchen aisle.

Also, what about making the pantry somewhat larger and the store room a bit smaller? Do you still plan to have them communicating? I think it would add a lot of functionality if you could do that. I was thinking you might be using the storeroom for canned stuff, bulk food and freezers...? If you had more space in the pantry, you'd have room for more than strictly food storage - some people find they like to keep small appliances like MWs that kids use for snacks out of the main kitchen proper, for instance. And the pantry is a common spot. Ditto a toaster or coffee maker. And if the store room was for longer-term (and cooler?) storage you could just go from the pantry deeper into your stored stuff. Are you in an area where you could use that space as a root cellar? I am thinking of divding my big cellar up into cool: normal cellar temps but with added heat from freezer motors and water heater and dry, i.e. best for jars of canned goods; to somewhat cooler and dark for stored in plastic bulk food (beans, grains) and veggies like onions and winter squash and finally: as cold as I can get it and moist for long-term fruits and roots veggies in the winter. I live in northern NY so cold is what I've got lots of in the winter. It just takes some fans and ducting.

Not trying to add to your task, but I was thinking the stove wall was a fixed exterior wall. I should have asked more questions.

L

Just another thought for storage possibility. Could you widen the peninsula by 12 inches and add a line of 42" cabinets on the other side? It would give you lots of additional storage space. You could still put an overhang and stools there. Just a thought...

The oven is not usable in that configuration.

Go back to the range on the end. Just make aisle a little wider.

Just a thought...a variation on the theme...

I don't think things have settled down yet for the layout, but my new two cents sez if the DW moved to left of peninsula sink, you could store dishes above corner to left of that. I can see dishes moving from eating area via OUTSIDE of peninsula to and from washing area and NOT needing to cross over the work area. If dishes could be reached above and in drawers below as accessed from the adjacent room, you've eliminated a major difficulty which I've worried about in your "I'll just walk across room from DW to cabs" statements--this traps someone in the U and it makes an uncomfortable stress on your back if the stuff has any weight to it. You have a lot of kids so you have a lot of dishes. Better to haul them as little as possible. You can set table by setting out some dishes from the upper cab and the kids get the rest out of the drawers/cabs below. Open shelf on bottom of an upper for plates so they can be accessed from either side of peninsula? Or pretty serving bowls and platters?

If you have a cockpit kitchen it's great to keep the others out by making their tools available elsewhere. Store flatware in a drawer on the front side of peninsula and just keep a few redundant flatware pieces in a drawer inside the kitchen for cook to access. Also, don't think "knives go here" think "knives for sandwiches and cheese go here where kids can also access them, knives for cutting up meats go here, knives for veg and fruit go here."

I really understand that sandwich station and urge a pull-out board there so you always have a working surface even when countertop is full.

I like the range on the end idea best. But I'm wondering, how big is your DR? What is it that requires the kitchen to be that narrow? I guess I'm asking if there is any way to scoot the peninsula out at least another 12"-15" or so, which would give you a little more clearance for cleaning and also the option of not completely wasting that corner storage space. (About the oven-cleaning issue: Not an issue if you have a self-cleaning oven.)

Speaking of the corner, I've seen kitchens where people had holes in their counter into which they inset cylindrical steel utensil holders, so all their utensils were right there at hand AND, because they were inset into the counter instead of sitting in containers on top of the counter, there was also room for a bit of storage above them (e.g. open shelves for spices halfway between counter and upper cabs, or mugs dangling from hooks on the underside of the upper cabs). You could also consider an inset container for compost.

To sum up the changes from a week ago, it's now "Light up one big counter" and "Make the drawers a.b.a.p."

rosieo, no matter what you do, you have a handle on the big things. I don't know if you will be happier with the range here or there; it may be a minor thing compared to all the other things you have figured out.

In your set of images, photos 1 to 5 show the kitchen is in a windowless corner of the house. With a mirror on the wall you will get more light into the kitchen, coming from another angle. This makes a difference. ((B.t.w. Photos 1 to 5 make me think the footprint of the house is still in flux: I saw a storage area behind the pantry.))

Knowing now what I now know about your house, I would go to ikea for wood counters, for the price (way less than stone) and quality. Nobody has ever said anything bad about them. With the money saved, you can buy more of other things.

If you have the money, you could have two single dishdrawers. When open to full drawer extension (or partially), they take up less space than a 30"high dishwasher panel. And, you cannot hit your shin on them. If you are certain that dishes will often go first to the sink (+disposer) before going to the dishwasher, you could justify putting the sink closer to the end, and the dishwasher on the other side of the sink.

500mm drawers
If you go with the layout now shown in photo #10, know this: Your dead space corner could be reduced in size, if your counters were only e.g. 23.5" on top of 21" cabinets. Ikea drawers only need 21" space from front to back. Ikea 500mm length drawer slides are identical to the current model of Blum 500mm length drawer slides, and the drawers are almost identical, with an Ikea soft close damper added. I have them. I also have some of the longest possible Blum drawers: they're more spacious, but not a way way great thing to have absolutely. (p.s. length in this paragraph is the length of the gliders = depth of cabinet = distance front to back).

If you went with the range-at-end, and then traded the range for a smaller one, you would have an easier time getting in and out of the corner it blocks.

Is exhaust venting in your kitchen plan?

agree with marcolo.

the range is too hard to open/close in your latest layout;

your first one was better. :)

You guys are killing me here. Lol.

Here's the problem. There's only 8'8" on the short wall because there's a doorway (not shown) that can't be moved. So that's all we have to work with here. The kitchen can't be deeper than 8'8". I've eked out all the inches I can.

The 12 inch overhang takes up a foot, leaving us with 7'8" total width for this kitchen.

To answer your questions/comments:
The floorplan is set now, the only changing I can do is the layout in the kitchen.

We don't use a microwave.

The range will be vented directly outside and, according to the contractor/DH, it can go in either place.

We're putting in a solartube to brighten it up. The dining room has a set of french doors and I'm adding a transom to throw light deeper into the kitchen.

Haven't looked into countertops or dishwasher yet but will consider those as soon as I get this layout done.

At this point I'm leaning towards putting the range on the end and having the extended counter on the long wall to keep all the appliances on the long countertop.

I'm not planning any uppers over the peninsula. I had them in my last kitchen and ripped them out. They were too high to access easily and I didn't like the visual block either.

Florantha and mydreamhome - great ideas and I'll look at incorporating them.

Thanks a ton, guys. I'm working on it. Later.

Here is a part I haven't understood well:
"The 12 inch overhang takes up a foot, leaving us with ..."

An overhang is a luxury, unnecessary in this house with its 27.5'wide by 18.5'deep footprint.

I've seen kitchens with a small "riser" panel blocking the view onto the sink. Something like 10" or 15" high. On island sinks and on peninsula sinks like yours. On top of the riser panel a long slim piece of flat material is a way to finish it esthetically and to make it practical as an occasional perch point, a mini shelf.

Since you've decided to have the dining area be a table within a few inches of the kitchen you could do this and gain the viewblock advantage too. Then, when entering the house (door at bottom right hand corner) your eyes would go to whatever dried flower is on that mini shelf in a little vase, and then past that to whatever you've hung on the mostly-open wall, and not go directly to your sink and faucet. It could partially block the view of the fridge handle. The disadvantage is obviously that you cannot slide plates back and forth from the dining table to the cooktop.... which means that someone acting responsibly has to stand up and pass plates over the riser panel... no big deal and no harm done, in my opinion.

The overhang doesn't have to be straight. You could push the kitchen dimension close to the doorway at the 27" counterdepth and taper out as you proceed away from the doorway. But I agree with Davidro about camouflaging the sink.

Actually the one I showed is "flipped" from yours with the refrigerator actually at the end of the peninsula in its own "column", and the sink at the back. I have done this twice and both people have loved this option. The one above has 2-sided-glass cabinets, the other one has no cabinets above. So rather than a 13' long peninsula they had a 9'6" open area with a fat "column" at the end. In one house, it aligned with a freestanding fireplace.

Rosieo,

Here is kind of a radical idea that would allow you to put your range at the end, keep the overhang, and not cost you much storage space. Since you have already indicated you are willing to give up the space of the dead corner, why not mentally move that dead space farther along the long wall?

This gives you breathing room at the range. It, of course, interrupts the counter run, and turns one 36" cab into a 27"+10" (or something like that). Aesthetically, I don't think the hole in the run will look that nice, but I think it should function well.

One additional idea is to put a 12" countertop in the "hole," put bookshelves or storage underneath it. Here, you get some countertop space, keep the elbow room, and and give up 12" of the 27" cab frontage. (You could do a "mini" blind corner there, I suppose.)