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Plans, help me improve them?

Posted by kksmama (My Page) on
Tue, May 21, 13 at 16:42

I'm really just getting started, though getting to this point has taken many hours and more than one designer. We are moving plumbing and removing a current peninsula to create this plan. I have resisted changing anything about the laundry room (behind the fridge, entry to right of fridge). It leads to the garage, so I do realize the oven placement is not ideal. I'm super excited about having a large island and think a raised area for seating will work well for us. The cleanup zone with the dw won't be a great place to stand, but dh says he'll be fine and prefers to be out of the way. I see the island sink as more of the "main" sink, where I'll be standing and washing produce and doing prep work for cooking. The fridge is 42" counter depth Kitchenaid french door. I think I want to use the 6 additional inches on that wall - with a pullout? I have many ideas that aren't yet incorporated, getting just the footprint was first priority and I'm still working on the vent hood, and door/drawer specifics. The pantry is existing, and not being changed because it is "good enough" and we're already a little over budget.

This post was edited by kksmama on Tue, May 21, 13 at 16:44


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

a little hard to read, even enlarged.

some comments to get you started: (my opinions)
1. make the island all 1 level = more counter space
2. move the island sink toward the fridge, making more prep space between sink and person sitting (bottom right stool).
3. hard to see: where is your trash?
where is your microwave?
4. why counter-depth fridge? so expensive for the value.

I like the clean-up sink over there.

Amanda


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

Thanks for the reply, more welcome! Maybe this picture helps? 1) We have 12ft ceilings, so I like the raised bar for several reasons...though I know they are out of style and am still thinking it over...2) yes, good thought! 3) trash is left of cleanup sink, dishwasher is to the right with microwave above that. 4) Fridge was floor model deeply discounted deal - and I love the layout that puts freezer on bottom, produce at eye level, and nothing hiding in the back.


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

The other view. Another question is height of cabinets. 42" uppers plus 18" with glass....or 36" plus 18"? Obviously, we'll need ladders to get up there, but without basements and with 100+ degrees in the attic we are happy to have relatively convenient storage space and take advantage of the 12' ceilings.


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

Me again:
thanks for the visual.

1. You need a 2nd trash, in your prep area or you'll be carrying stuff over there all the time.
2. again MW has to move out of the clean up zone.
maybe swap the MW w/ one of the wall ovens.
3. what's going in the base cab next to cooktop? why not more drawers?
4. last pitch for 1 level island:
- your island is the only space with large continuous countertop -- great for rolling out dough/projects. all the other countertop space is choppy (broken up by sinks or cooktop).

back to my "real" work, enough playing.
Amanda


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

Thank you SO much! Agree about 2nd trash...but not sure how to do it :( Maybe just a small can under that sink - so low tech. I'm sure I shouldn't dedicate 2 full cabinets to garbage...though I intend to put a Haefele pedal or Ikea utrusta on the main one, left of the cleanup sink.

I agree that the base cabs should be drawers, thanks for catching that! I think the cooking wall will change a little as I figure out the vent hood - I might shrink those uppers and move the spice/condiment pullouts up.

I see the microwave working where it is - plates are over there, fridge is close, and we really only heat up single servings in the mw. The double ovens were another nearly half price floor model deal, they aren't separable. I think the coffee maker and grinder will live on the cleanup counter to the right, since I can't seem to find an appliance garage plan that I like. I wonder if I should make that whole cleanup wall a little deeper? The other appliances (blender, food processors, grainmill, etc) will live in the island, with the mixer on a lift.

Wondering what your "real" work is - this sure seems like work to me! Thank you again for helping!


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

I am no kitchen planner so will only comment on the island. I agree that it needs to be all one level. Amanda is right when she says you don't have a lengthy work area that is clear. I don't know what I would do without my one long run of clear counter and my island that is free-standing but has nothing breaking up the expanse.

As for trash..I am really low tech:) I have a trash can that sits by the wall...I pull it over to where I am working and dump everything into it...or else I have a container on the counter and I fill it with refuse and when I am done I carry it over to the trash can...very simple and no cabinet space devoted to trash !

We have 11ft ceilings and my uppers are 48". All glass doors since they were repurposed old windows. I use a neat step ladder thing that I got at Lowes...love it and it folds /unfolds very easily. I have BIG space between my counters and uppers...I wanted a lot of room for my mixer and work area. It is proportional with the tall ceilings so you might think of that too.

I don't mind your MW where it is as long as it is close to the fridge...we rarely use ours either . c


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

Thanks for the input! Trailrunner, how much vertical space between counters and uppers - more than the "standard" 18?

I'll think more about that island. Without the raised part it is 54" by 72" - but I see now what Amanda means about the rest of the work space being choppy. The more I look at plans the more I realize how shockingly bad my existing kitchen layout is - the current cooking wall has three 18" areas separated by fridge and range, nearly useless! The new layout still has some small spaces, but much bigger small ones :)


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

Workspace...Except for the island, workspace looks pretty good. You appear to have 42" on either side of the cooktop (9" + 33") and 36" or more on each side of the cleanup sink.

For the island, I recommend:

  1. Moving the sink to the refrigerator end to get a larger contiguous workspace - NKBA recommends at least 36" of workspace in your Prep Zone, but I think 42" is even better! Right now, you appear to have less than 30" on one side and around 18" on the other side...neither is enough room.
  2. Making the island all one height so you have a wonderful expanse of workspace (once you move the sink!) If you lower the seating overhang to counter-height, you an utilize that space for workspace. Also keep in mind that with a raised counter:
    1. You need to be careful you don't knock dishes, glasses, etc. off the raised counter and onto the lower counter. In most cases, the raised counter is too shallow to be very useful for a place setting or anything else that takes up much more room than a coffee cup.

    2. The higher seating is more difficult for young children and older adults. Even counter-height can become an issue for older adults. Neither my mother nor my in-laws like sitting at our counter-height peninsula - they find it uncomfortable and don't like "climbing" up into the seats.
    3. This next item doesn't affect you depth-wise b/c you have plenty of depth behind the sink, but I wanted to include it here for completeness for others who might be reading this.

      For most people with bi-level counters...a raised counter usually overhangs the lower counter by at least an inch or so - thereby reducing the depth of the lower counter. This is especially an issue when you have a sink on the lower level - it reduces the space available for the faucet to fit behind the sink (to turn on/off or to even fit at all). This is a problem b/c there is usually just barely enough room behind a sink for a faucet in a "standard" counter - which an island or peninsula turns into when you have a raised counter behind the sink.

      Where this will affect you, though, is on the left side of the sink in your layout b/c the overhang will extend into that 18" or so space b/w the sink and raised counter on the left.

  3. Are you aware that with the raised counter much of that deeper workspace behind the sink is unusable? There's no way to get to it...
  4. Trash pullout....this is by far my biggest regret in my kitchen. I put the only trash pullout in the Cleanup Zone next to my Cleanup sink and 6' (72") across from my Prep Zone (but no barrier island b/w them). I have discovered that I generate far more trash and recyclables when prepping and cooking than I do when cleaning up....and for much longer work times and more times a day. I have to either pile up the trash & recyclables on the counter while I work or cross the aisle over & over again...often dripping while I do.

    If I had it to do over, I would either put a double-bin trash pullout in both zones (Prep and Cleanup) or put a double-bin in the Prep Zone and a single-bin in the Cleanup Zone. If cabinet space is an issue, I'd rather put the trash under the cleanup sink than the prep sink.

    In your layout, the island is a "barrier island" b/w the trash pullout and the Prep Zone....you have to around the island to get to the trash pullout next to the cleanup sink.

  5. Consider reducing the prep sink base to 21". Even with the counter all one level, your island is little narrow for a large prep sink.
  6. With a 6-foot wide island, I recommend:

    1.5" overhang + 18" trash pullout + 21" sink + 30" cabinet + 1" decorative door (on the side of the 30" cabinet) = 71.5"

    Then....

    + 15" seating overhang

    For an island 86.5" wide/long.

    This will give you 19.5" of work/landing space on the right side of the prep sink and 46" of workspace on the left side of the sink - a very respectable amount of workspace!

Here's an example of what you could do:

kksmama's Kitchen #1 - Island photo kksmamasKitchen1-Island.jpg

Note the 12" wide cabinet b/w the front & back row of cabinets - it could hold cutting boards, pizza stones, and anything else that's too heavy to be safely stored above waist or chest high.

Also note the 36" wide cabinet that's 21" deep where there's seating - this uses space that might otherwise be wasted. No drawers on the top though b/c it will be too difficult to access them w/the seating overhang. A deep bottom drawer would be fine, but the top half (or more) should be shelving. You might consider reducing the entire island depth by 9" and then having 12" deep cabinets under the seating overhang. That would mean you would lose the 12" cabinet b/w the front and back row, but you could put in a 3" filler pullout.

Base Filler Pullouts, minimum 3": Rev-A-Shelf Filler Pullout Organizer with Stainless Panel

Base Filler Pullouts, minimum 3": Rev-A-Shelf Filler Pullout Organizer with Wood Adjustable Shelves

Base Filler Pullouts, minimum 9": Rev-A-Shelf Filler Pullout Organizer with Wood Adjustable Shelves & Stainless Panel


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

Here are some kitchen I would like to have maybe one of them will give you some inspiration

Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen ideas


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

Thank you very much, Buehl! Looking forward to getting in there with the tape measure again once the house wakes up. Maybe I could make that 12" space 12.5 and get my mixer lift. I know you are right about trash, thanks for sharing your wisdom!


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

I just saw the beautiful kitchen done by mamadadapaige and realize my clean up wall needs design help. I'm SO happy you all helped me see the light on my one level island design!
I need a trash pullout, sink (planning 24' base to fit silgranit precis large bowl), dishwasher, microwave and as much storage for dishes, glasses, and silverware as possible. The wall is 96' long and there is room to go deep with the lowers, up to 34'. Plenty of room to go up, ceilings are 12' so I'm doing 18' glass front cabs over the 42' uppers. The GC's current plan has the wall extended on the left to 110' but I'm concerned that will look weird from the eating nook that is adjacent.
I think we'll want our coffee maker and grinder on this wall, and enough landing space left of the sink (above trash) for dirty plates. What is the best way to use this space? I know I want to get rid of that peninsula, but while it is there I just can't see how the area will look! (edited to take out duplicate sentence).

Kksmamakitchen

Here is a link that might be useful: my photobucket

This post was edited by kksmama on Mon, Jun 10, 13 at 8:04


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

I suggest moving DW to left of sink (particularly if your DH is right handed) for two reasons.

The first is counterintuitive, but basically you hold the item with your left hand to scrape with your right (dominant) hand. If the DW contents need fiddling with to get an insertion point, you do that with your dominant hand, again while holding the to-be-inserted item in your other hand until there's a space for it. If you have the DW set up this way (DW on non-dominant side), then you don't have to reach around your body constantly nor changes hands on every item. I didn't believe this (I read it, and didn't think it was right), so I had my DH watch - and even video me - working at the sink.

Well, it is correct. I changed my sink arrangement plans to conform with this, and I was pleased at the difference it made.

But the other reason is that the DW door, when it's open, will be something of bottleneck point. I'd rather have the bottleneck happen farther away from the "corridor" leading to the doorway at the top of the drawing. If the DW is on the left it could be open and there would still be a pathway around it (albeit it would funnel traffic through the working aisle), but at least traffic could funnel as opposed to not moving.

You could deepen the counter top somewhat, but every inch will reduce make the worker there feel more like he/she is standing in the middle of the roadway. I ouldn't go deeper than 30", and might just make it 27".

Deeper cabs boxes increase the cost, mostly because the sliders are surprisingly priced a good deal more than standard ones. You can just furr out the ledger they are attached on and use regular depth cabs (with regular depth drawers and sliders), but then you're not adding functionality/storage to balance the extra cost of the larger counter top. Since this isn't a countertop that's a prep or baking area, I'm not sure it would be worth it.

Your have excellent food pathways within your design.

One thing that occurs to me that might improve things would be to have (every day/ frequently used ites of) dish storage on the upper left of the island, with a drawer that opens towards the fridge. This would make for handy stowage directly from the DW (which was on left of sink) , as well as handy retrieval by the cook at the plating point. Don't think you have to have all your dishes stored together, just the ones that would be involved with plating (lunch/ dinner plates, salad plates or bowls if you use them every day, pasta/soup bowls and platters or serving bowls that are filled and delivered to the table.) Other dishes, including extras (duplicates of above items) not used for typical family meals could go elsewhere. The opening towards the fridge choice would need some consideration (big plus/minus of it). An alternative would be a cab that opened toward the DW:(excellent for unloading, but slightly less convenient for retrieval at plating time. It somewhat depends on your work flow patterns, which you favor.

HTH,

L.


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

Thank you, Liriodendron! It is hard to imagine the dw to the left of the sink, but that is just the kind of challenge to what I think I "know" that is SO helpful! I think I'll film dh tonight before even discussing it with him. Love the idea about dish storage in the island, too - I currently find plating a bit of a hassle and would like to change that.

If lowers on that wall are 27, should I also make uppers deeper? How shallow and/or high should the upper above the sink be? I'm trying to figure out optimal height of all uppers - I've seen the suggestion to make them more than "standard" 18"...but how much more? I think having deeper counters, and higher uppers would be great for the things which will end up sitting out - the KA mixer, coffeemaker, and sometimes blender. I'm a little afraid to do non-standard things - but then again, I'm getting custom cabinets so that I can when it makes sense in my space.


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

I have a GC meeting this morning, so I'm bumping my own thread (sorry!) with my most pressing questions for GW:

1) If I make lowers deeper (27" or 30"?) will the uppers be more functional at 15" or more deep? Would it maximize utility and look okay to make the one above the sink shallower and set it a little higher (how shallow, how high?) - it looks like that is what mamadadapaige did here

http://s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn62/mamadadapaige/?action=view¤t=17.jpg

2) If the dishwasher is on the left of the sink, where is trash best placed? I'm intrigued by the non-dominant side argument, but I'm going to have to persuade dh - probably by making a huge mess of the kitchen and then filming his clean up.

3) Can anyone help me understand how to resolve the awkwardness of the left side of the wall if the cabinets extend further to the left than the corner that is there now? The GC seems to think some minor drywalling will make that look right, but I just don't get it. Seems to me that it will create a visual obstruction from the dining nook. Is the 96" I have "enough" for all that I want to do on that wall? I'm thinking 24" sink base, 24" dishwasher, 18" trash pullout, and I still get a 30" drawer stack. Uppers have dishes, glasses, cabinets and the microwave.

I hope I can figure this out! I can visualize the island, the cooking wall, and the new fridge placement. But this darn weird wall is so frustrating. I'm looking for, and finding, cabinets that wrap around angled walls - maybe that would work there?


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

hold horses.
sorry I haven't been keeping up w/ your tweakings but I think you would want a bigger sink than just 24" for your main sink. At least 30" wide.
Then you can dump all the dirty dishes into the sink instead of letting them sit on the countertop.

My gf's HUGE model home came w/ a 24" inch main sink, even though the sink base is 40". We scratch our heads daily to understand this "confusion". (Not an easy fix w/ all the granite (undermount sink).


a. "for all that I want to do on that wall? I'm thinking 24" sink base, 24" dishwasher, 18" trash pullout, and I still get a 30" drawer stack"
b. " enough landing space left of the sink (above trash) for dirty plates"

keep up the good progess,
Amanda


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

Thank you, Amanda! If we have room for it, we could go a little bigger (a 27" base would hold a 24" x 18" single sink) but either option would be better than the large part of our double bowl now. I'm not sure that "main" sink is an accurate term for us, I could see both the prep and clean up sinks being fairly equal in use (and size) given our lifestyle. When I cook, I use big pots but rarely more than 2, and we eat many meals without much cooking (salads, fruit, sandwiches).

Any advice on the depth of lowers and uppers, and height of uppers?


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

1. Can you combine sink and trash? That's what I did.
36" sink base, so I put an 18" trash under the sink.
You can get a sink w/ drain on one side, or a rear drain (I did that since I pulled my cabinets out to 27" deep).
You already have another trash at the island. This trash is just for scrapings off the plates, etc.
Why waste all that space for under the sink?

2. I would DEFINITELY make 27" base cabinets, so w/ countertop, it'd be 28.5" deep.
I didn't pay for deeper cabinets, just pulled the cabinets out 4".
It's plenty deep for me, I have a bit of trouble reaching to open the windows.

3. That alludes to my height = 5 feet tall.
So I didn't put in any uppers.

4. W/ 29" deep base cabs, I would go either 15" or 18" deep uppers.
I would do the minimum 18" from countertop to bottom of uppers. Afraid that area would feel boxed in w/ the cabinets, so 18" height = good.

5. Confused about extending the wall.
a. you can stop at the natural/current wall, OR
b. you can drywall it so it looks like a small wall and you can make it any size.
My friend did that when he bought a new/bigger fridge, so he had to extend the wall.

you're on your way.
I totally tweaked my layouts to exactly how I like it and I LOVE LOVE LOVE my layout!!!
Amanda


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

Kksmom, people can't weigh on what effect extending a wall would have on a space they can't see. What eating nook? You're coming along really well with some high-quality advice, though.


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

Thanks again Amanda! Ok - I'll definitely consider the 36" sink base if I can have my trash and recycling under there, too - that would be ideal! Do you have a picture or diagram I can share with the designer?

I think we got the weird wall figured out today and I am a little excited about it - it is a really tricky place but that means a cool opportunity to do a shaped cabinet that will follow the wall angles. I'll post about it again if necessary - but am a little hopeful that I can just show it to you all at the reveal!


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

hola,
this is faster than me taking pix of my sink/trash setup.

scroll down to morton5's post:
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg111733195143.html

This is kiffgirl's eye-vac:
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0208175425075.html

Morton5's:

kiffgirl's sink w/ the eye-vac installed. Mine is still on the to-do list:

I also got the Blum Servo hands-free opening for the trash door side so I won't be yanking on the trash door.
Also, not yet installed.

good luck,
Amanda


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

This is awesome, really changes my ideas about the size of sink cabinets, and therefore sinks. And I'd never heard of eyevac, more research fun for me today!

Now...about drawers.....All this time I've thought "deep" meant "high". There is not a lot posted about useful interior heights, and I haven't yet found someone post that they have 15" of useful interior height which is what I need for several appliances and a few monster pots. I'm going to have to figure out exactly how many of those (high) drawers I actually need because it must be less than I thought. Perhaps you all store your blenders, food processors, and other things like that with the jars beside rather than on top of the bases?


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

Ok, I think I'm almost set. I am going to lengthen the island a little to give a 36" wide reinforced set of drawers for dishes and 27" sink base. Big thanks to Amanda and others for persuading me to go one level!

I am conflicted about my cooking wall and the width of the hood. It could be 42" as shown, which would be better for capture....but I could also get away with 36" and keep more upper cabinet space. What would look best there? Here is what I'm thinking for the design

Traditional Kitchen by Pasadena Interior Designers & Decorators Charmean Neithart Interiors, LLC.
I don't think I'll have a dedicated trash cabinet at the cleanup sink, that one can go under the sink. I think I will use the cabinet to the right of the island sink for trash and recycling.


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

Buehl, your drawing of the island was so helpful, as were your other tips! I find the plans really hard to read, but I'm glad you fixed that part! Here is the kind of picture that works for me.


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

And one of the cleanup wall. I think I already regret my oven choices, I do not like the look of a microwave hanging there but it is most practical. It will help to change the cabinets below it, I'll make them all drawers and put the trash under the sink.


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

Hmm, I kinda like the MW over there. It's convenient to the fridge for reheating stuff yet out if the main cooking zone. I can't tell how wide that aisle is, do you have enough space to pull you base cabinets out a little and get extra deep uppers there? Then you could hide the MW behind doors, or use a lift up door. I have one 24 in cabinet that is 15 in deep, and even though I haven't moved stuff back into the kitchen I already love it! It's currently housing my toaster oven between meals and a bunch of drawer organizers I need to wash before using.

Of course if you use the MW a lot when cooking that probably won't work so well.


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

Thank you Williamsem. I don't really hate it enough to aggravate my family by hiding it behind doors, I just don't like or use it myself, and resent the space it takes up. I'm also sad about giving up my ugly but beloved toaster oven which I do use. We've decided we'll just use the double ovens and have less counter and under cabinet clutter.
I compromised on the depth of the cleanup wall's base cabinets to save money and because the design on the left side of that wall (the wrap around) was tricky and the designer thought it worked better at 24". I made all uppers 15" and they'll recess the micro back in the wall so it is flush in front. I might review that with them one more time, though I have to admit I'm trying the patience of some very patient men who I suspect haven't met a GW TKO client before.
Slept on it, and I'm still unsure about the width of that hood. Unsure about the 9" base pullouts, too (wish they were on top). I've made so much progress thanks to this forum, but have such a long way to go!


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

What are the 9 in cabinets going to be used for? They will be very narrow inside so best to plan ahead there.

Have you considered making each side drawer stack 3 in larger and putting one of these on either side? I have one as a 3 in upper filler and love it so far! You could use them for large skillets, splatter guards, collapsible cool landers, steamers, utensils, etc. I was so amazed by the variety of pegboard accessories out there that I'm trying to figure out where else to put one.

Or what about a pull out with utensil crocks? Someone posted one very recently

Stepstool?

I think the hood thing depends on how you cook and how powerful the blower is. If you cook a lot of high heat things (wok stuff, searing, grill pan, etc) you need better capture than "light" cooking. But if you have a decent depth and good blower strength, you'd be fine with matching the cooktop width. At least that's what I took away from reading on Appliances. Either way you'll probably be better off than most non-TKO/non-chef kitchens!

I was kinda bummed I didn't have room for a wider hood at first. Then I realized even a modern builder special would pull more air than our 20 year old OTR MW, which sounded like a jet engine. I found a 22 in deep hood that can do 640 CFM on high for those stir fry nights and decided it was so far ahead of what was there that I'd be thrilled. And so far, so good. I guess that's one plus with starting with a really outdated, dysfunctional kitchen. Compromises are easier when even moderate choices are a big step up :-)

Here is a link that might be useful: 6 in filler w/pegboard


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

That is a cool pullout, I hadn't seen pegboard used that way.
The 9" cabinets are pullouts, I figured they can hold spices, oils, maybe pot lids, even bottles of liquor? I'm worried they are too wide, but I guess the GC noticed that a lot of my stuff is bigger than typical and figured I needed larger pullouts, too. I would've been happy with a 3" upper like yours.
Decided to keep 42" hood and put an overpowered insert in, partly because the cost is much less than retail thanks to GC and only a couple hundred more than the 36" lower cfm units. If a real chef comes to visit, my ventilation system is ready!
You are so right about every step being a big improvement over the state of my kitchen now! It tickles me to realize how much I've learned here on GW. I went again to a store I visited 2 months ago, a high end showroom with sales staff who barely deign to talk down to me. The first time I was a little intimidated by everything and everyone, this time I felt confident and empowered. Thank you GW!


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

As I started to think about placing knobs and pulls, the cooking wall really bothered me with those 39" uppers over the 33" plus 9" pullout lowers. The area for the hood seemed pinched, though at 42" it is already 6" wider than the cooktop. I thought about narrowing the 9" pullouts, but I think they'll be more versatile and look better than 6" ones.
So now I'm thinking the uppers should be 36" and the hood 48" - a full 6" wider than the 36" cooktop on either side.
I'd be so grateful for some feedback on this, demo is less than 2 weeks away and the GC has started to order materials, change orders are going to get more difficult.


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RE: Plans, help me improve them?

Note that my ceilings are 12', the upper cabs are 42s and 18s, the hood will start at 36" above the cooktop and go all the way up past the up-uppers, perhaps tapered like this one. My perimeter cabs are white, and my island will be a weathered black similar to the hood color - so I'm thinking about the hood (cabinetry, so no bending, just straight lines) being two toned, also?

Another two tone


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