I think you're brilliant for the area you have to work with. New tenants should love a new kitchen.

Have the cabinet over the fridge deep enough (or just set forward) enough to line up with the pantry and fridge front. That way it's usable. Overall I think it's pretty good!

Good work so far.

I have seen US web sites that say an adult couple uses 8 cubic feet of fridge. You could save 8 inches if you got a tall 24" fridge. The bottom-freezer models are fun to open since the fridge is at eye level. A single door makes more sense in this kitchen.

Here are a few ideas
Liebherr 24" - several models
Fagor 24"
Blomberg 24" tall or 27"
LG - 24" - the taller of the two models, the GR-389
Summit 27"
Summit CP-171 - also available as
Equator ConServ, Vestfrost at Home Depot, and several other brand names

Since it's a rental, you might look at a Danby. They are often good. I had one long ago. I know people who love them.

HTH
-david

Here is a link that might be useful: 24

It's laid out just like mine except I do not have a cabinet to the right of the refrigerator. I also have more room to the left of the DW and a short wall of cabinets opposite the sink wall. Can you squeeze a lazy susan into the lower corner cabinet? I agree about building out the cabinet over the fridge. It helps a lot.

I couldn't tell by your drawings how high the ceiling is. Can the cabinets go all the way to the ceiling? That has really helped in my small space.

I'd also increase the depth of the upper cabinets to 15"...3" can make a big difference.

Is that a pantry to the right of the refrigerator? Is there a closet or something that could be used instead (maybe a closet under the stairs if it's a 2-level rental)? That 12" would be very useful workspace-wise...move it to the left of the range so there's more space b/w the sink & range, for example. Right now, only one person can work in the kitchen at a time...or at least at the sink & range.

Is the sink in front of a window or is it open to another room? Do you have a first floor layout? Entrances to kitchen?

One thing, you could gain 4 or 5 inches to the left of the DW if you take that wall down & take the cabinets & counters to the edge. That might even give you enough room for a 33" super/lazy susan if you shifted the sink to the left some (also gaining a bit more space b/w the range & sink).

The same for the wall next to the pantry & refrigerator. In this case, if you've moved the 12" from the pantry to the left of the range, then add the 4 or 5 inches to the 12" cabinet to the right so it's 16" or 17" wide (or maybe 15" if you're constrained to 3" increments).

Taking the wall down might also open the kitchen up and make the area appear more spacious than it is...a plus!

You should definitely get a narrower fridge, in my opinion. Davidro and I love to discuss this all over GW. :D

I have the Summit 27" he mentions in my teeny kitchen and much prefer the counter space.

Actually, if it were me, and mine's about the same size but laid out differently (I can use both sides), I'd forgo the pantry, get a narrower fridge, and have more counter space between the range and fridge. You could have up to 21 more inches of counter that way.

But that could just be me. I'm very efficient with pantry space (buy just what I need, use stackable Tupperware) and need lots of room to spread out when I cook.

Thanks for the input guys! Keep them coming!

I was thinking about getting apartment sized appliances since I will most likely be getting a new fridge and oven. I was looking all over for a 24"to sub 30"and they all seem too expensive. However, I want to keep the full size stove because all it has now is a ceramic cook top and convection microwave. The current kitchen is a thing to see. I will try to find some photos to post.

Anyonw know where I can find decently prices apartment sized appliances on the cheap? I mean aside from compactappliance.com. I have heard people have had some luck with used appliance stores, but I am somewhat leary of buying used stuff.

if you went to a 24"sink base you could fit a 24" DW which I am sure would save you money and be easier to fix if there ends up being a problem down the road.

Have you gone to AJMadison online appliance shop. Great for figuring out what is out there and from there you can price shop via google/ebay/craigslist, etc.

24" range, too.

Here is a link that might be useful: Compact appliance - one model

Hey Guys. I finally found the pictures of the existing kitchen. This photos should answer a few of the questions above. Also, I dont have ANY closet space downstairs at all. That is why I wanted to have a full height pantry. I turned the closet under the stairs into a half bath/powder room. And if you look close you will see that I am going to cover the back window with the pantry. I figure it is a worthy sacrifice.

{{!gwi}}

{{!gwi}}

{{!gwi}}

I hate blind corners, and I agree with those who recommended a corner Super Susan. Being forced to squeeze into the corner spaces you've shown on your layout would make me furious. The corner space to the left of the stove looks IMPOSSIBLE to access because the cabinet door is so narrow; no one could get both a head and an arm in there at the same time. The corner to the right of the sink might be easier to reach because of the double doors in the sink base, but your tenant probably wouldn't use that space to store much more than cleaning supplies. With as little space as you have to work with, every millimeter of it should be fully accessible.

Is there a way to employ the divider wall/dining peninsula differently, using a cabinet as the base of a bar height dining counter? It looks like the divider wall is 54" wide. Is it structural? If so, a post at the end would probably suffice for support. You might consider an "island" inside the post composed of a 30"-36" wide base cabinet 40" high by 15" deep with a 12" overhang for a bar stool. That would give your tenant a lot more sorely needed storage space on the kitchen side. You could pretty up the exposed sides with overlay panels.

If you can squeeze out another inch or two for your cab to the left of the stove, I believe you can fit the Lee Valley corner pullout: Orchdlvr has small doors and modified hers to fit (maybe a 13.5" door: She said it wouldn't have worked if it were any smaller). Alternatively you might be able to access the corner from the back side.

You have so little space in this kitchen that I would seriously consider getting rid of the overhang and replacing it with base cabinets & countertop. I would probably move the sink over to this area along with a 24" DW and move the range so it's not directly in front of the DW or sink, if possible. BTW...it looks like you currently have a cooktop....where is the oven?

Perhaps you could leave one stool in the corner where the overhang is now and not have a corner base cabinet there.

miggy, have you changed the space's dimensions? In your first post drawing the wall in the corner is about 32" to the opening. Later, in the second photo, I see a small fridge in that corner BUT it takes so little space it leaves me with the notion that either your fridge is only 15"-16" deep (impossible) or your wall is a LOT longer today than what is shown in your first post diagram.

More ideas later.

-david

Again, thanks for the all the input!

I have afew questions myself.

buehl-could you explain more of what you are talking about. Maybe even an illustration? I like the way it sounds, but really cannot see what you are talking about.

davidro-Im not there right now, but if my calculations are correct the wall is actually 43 inches of wall and 33 inches of open space on the plan north wall. I guess the drawing is off a bit:(

maydl-Can I see an illustartion of what you are talking about? It is a good idea. I have thought of that but I thought that it would severly restrict the leg room of the bar and I would have to get more bartop to boot. How big of a bartop would you recommend I use if I went that route?

A picture speaks louder than a thousand words...

Now, a couple of layouts illustrating what I was describing (and to get the ball rolling again)...

Layout A:

Layout B:

Filler Pullouts:

Base: http://www.rev-a-shelf.com//Common/ProductCategory.aspx?Class=Sink%20&%20Base%20Accessories&Family=Wood%20Accessories&Category=Filler%20Pull-Outs%20-%20Base

Wall: http://www.rev-a-shelf.com//Common/ProductCategory.aspx?Class=Wall%20Accessories&Family=Wood%20Accessories&Category=Filler%20Pull-Outs%20-%20Wall

One piece of advice: my biggest mistake was that I measured from only one point, wall to wall. When you are cramming as many cabinets in as possible, you truly need to measure from at least 3 points, wall to wall, for accuracy. If that means doing it after demo, then so be it. Otherwise, you can really run into installation issues even if you're less than 1/2" off.

Wow buehl. Thanks for clearing it up for me. I appreciate the work you put into the illustration. I like what you did, but I think it might be a bit too much for what I want to do.

I would someway have to have a transition to the living room, which is already small, by making a bar top like before. I think it might be kind of weird to not have a bar height counter to define the two seperate space. I guess I should have laid out the whole first floor so you guys could have a more clear idea of waht I am working with.

Thanks again! Cheers.

Miggystardust, I wish I COULD provide an illustration, but I'm not tech-savvy with graphics software like buehl.

Basically, I'm agreeing with buehl: It looks like your peninsula is strictly a countertop for eating with only a wall below it. I was suggesting, like buehl, that you replace the wall below the countertop with base cabinets for extra storage space.

My original idea doesn't require much new wall work, unless that wall under the counter is structural. My suggestion was based on your posted layout, with an 18" DW next to the wall. I suggested a small "island" with eating counter, made up of a cabinet anywhere from 30"-36" wide, 40" high and 15" deep, with a 12" overhang for eating. The island, which would jut out into the adjoining room, would start at the post, leaving a space between the DW and the island for opening the DW door without hitting the island.

If you wanted more "working" counter space, the island cabinet could be standard counter height, but you'd lose a bit of the extra storage space and your overhang might have to be a bit deeper.

All that said, if you could see your way clear to swinging it, I'd go with buehl's Layout B.

Hello Everyone,

Thanks again for all the input. While looking over some of your ideas I have came up with one of my own.

I have put some drawing together to show what I have come up with.

This is the kitchen void of cabinets and appliances. I have left the 25" countertop on the drawing to give a reference of where things are.

Here is the drawing of my idea. The kitchen is not totally complete becasue I havn't come up with a good design to use the limited space effectively.

I forgot to draw to existing plumbing on the before, but is is shown on the AFTER drawing.

The 'S' shaped wall that is grayed out is what I intend to build.

Also, the dotted wall is actually the load supporting beam that is cantilevered on the wall that has the electric panel. You can see it in the photos a few post above.

As I have said before I dont have ANY closet space on this floor, so this design would be a big bonus. It also would allow for a stackable washer and dryer to be installed in the future when I have more funds.

Here is a thumb of the first floor layout, I htink it helps show the limited space I am working with.

So, what do you guys think? Any and all input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

MS

Eureka!!! I have finally worked out a hard won solution to this vexing problem. Or at least I think I did! What do you guys think?

I was playing around with the drawing and came up with this, cross my fingers, final idea.

What I did was move the fridge to the wall next to the half bath and enclose it in a wall. This allows me to get it out of the way so I can make a efficient simple elevation of cabinets with all the appliances. With the space open, I can have the wall taken down and have the load bearing beam transfer it weight to the wall that is enclosing the fridge.

This opens up the space that was a bartop and support wall, allowing me to put an island with some electrical outlets and, more importantly, adding valuable countertop space to work with and keep a bartop.

This is a quick sketch of the island.

Just in case you are wondering how all of this fits together, here is a thumbnail of the first floor.

It looks like a great solution to your space problem. You're going to have some lucky renters. You can probably downsize the sink to a 24" single bowl in a 30" cab which would still be a sink capable of holding a large roasting pan/cookie sheet/small dog. The extra drawer space would be a huge bonus in a small kitchen. It would kill the all 18" doors that look great on your elevation, but would be more cab space and 18-30-24-30-18 would be symmetrical if that's important to you.

Who wide are the wall spaces next to the island? If I am calculating correctly, they are 30". Is that correct? I can't tell what the dimensions are from your drawing.

Looking good though.
Homepro01

Thanks guys, I might have to scale down the island to better accomodate traffic and elbw room. Keep the input coming, god know I need it.

Thanks again in advance!!!

Miggystardust,
My original suggestion of scaling down the appliances still applies. If you went with all 24" appliances and a sink cabinet,you would have space for 2 24" cabinets and a 6" cabinet to play with or use for filler space if needed. Walls are never perfectly straight. I think that will create a very symmetrical back wall. A 24" DW, 24" Stove with 24" hood, a 24" farm house sink in a 24" cabinet and 2 24" cabinets for pots and pans storage. If the plumbing is done correctly, you may be able to fit in a 12" deep pullout under the sink. Ikea sells a 24" farmhouse sink at a really good price. Several vendors make really credible ranges in the 24" space.

What style are you considering for the cabinets?

Good luck!

Homepro01, I am going to go for the shaker style. Here is a color rendering of what I have in mind. I want to use glass in all of the uppers, btw. Except for the cabinet above the fridge.

{{!gwi}}

As far as the changing of the cabinet widths, I really like the symmetry of the 18" cabinets, but I am going to look further into your advice becasue I want this kitchen to be as efficient as possible.

Miggy,
Don't forget to plan for just an inch or so of space at the ends of each cabinet to allow you to slide out the DW if it needed a repair and also in case the walls are not straight.

Are you hoping that much of the storage and pantry space would be in the island? I think with the 24" layout, you will have space for storage of silverware and cooking utensils on the back wall. You can use the island for the storage of food and larger items that may not fit elsewhere. I think you are really close to a good plan.

Good luck!

I have nothing to add except two things...

#1. You are gonna have some LUCKY renters, for sure -- and --
#2. You guys (GW'ers) are INCREDIBLE! I cannot believe how gifted you are with these layout questions and how generous you are with your time, to share and tweak. You guys rock!!! (And oh, #3: I wish I'd have found you guys a whole lot earlier!!!) ;o)

Lynn

Also, I forgot to mention. I already have the appliances, except for the 18 dishwasher.

Thanks

I'd check to see if you will have to build a wall on the right side of the DW to brace the countertop. You may not have to, but check so you can plan for it if it's needed.

Sorry I didn't get to this until today...but it looks like you've come up with a good setup.

Also, be sure you can open the refrigerator door all the way w/o bumping into the island. Is the refrigerator in the earlier pics the refrigerator you're planning to use?

If you do change the sink to a 30" sink base, you may want to redo the cabs slightly differently if symmetry is important. The upper cabs right now are 18-30-18-18-18-18. If you change to a 36" SB, you'll have: 18-30-24-15-15-18. I'm not sure how that would look. You might think about splitting the "extra" 6" b/w the two sides of the range, giving you:

Base: 21-30-21-30-18
Upper: 21-30-21-15-15-18 OR 21-15-15-21-15-15-18

HTH!

If it were me, I'd take that sink base down to 27". That still gives you room for a good size single-bowl sink. And that way, you could have a full-size dishwasher - important because there are very few choices in 18" - plus 3" of filler for that wall, which you'll want because it's very hard to jam in the cabinets wall-to-wall. As someone pointed out, walls aren't straight.

I have a 27" sink base and it's fine - I was delighted to fit that as opposed to a 24"! I only had room for an 18" d/w, which is why I'm sensitive to the lack of choices there. ;-)

Otherwise this looks great! I think having that island really opens up the space.

So, I had another revision to the cabinet elevation. The addition of a tall pantry to the mix. Any feedback??? It would be 18" wide by 74" tall and 24" deep.

This would add a bunch of storage space to the otherwise cramps room. Or does it...???

I think the original layout is better and you don't need a pantry since you have the storage in the island.

Good luck!

I hate to ask but are you sure that you can structurally remove all of the wall/post that you would need to for the island plan?

There's absolutely no workspace b/w the range and the sink...and that's where it's needed most. I also wonder if it would pass code having a water source so close to the range (although, if a pot filler w/no sink is allowed, this probably will be as well).

The first one was much better. Yes, you need storage, but you also need workspace & landing space and if I had to pick b/w the two I'd pick work/landing space b/c you can always find storage someplace...even if it's in another room...but you can't find work/landing space in another room!

I also like the idea of the 27" sink base. As mentioned that gives you a 24" DW PLUS 24" of workspace next to the sink on the opposite side from the range...letting you stack dirty dishes if you have to w/o getting in the way of prepping and cooking. The other 3" will either be filler or, if you don't need it (but I think you will), allow for a 21" cabinet b/w the range & sink.

Is this a high end rental that you are renovating? Is there a dw already in place?

I wouldn't add the pantry cabinet since you will lose that bit of w/s--you have some great ideas here and nothing really that I can add other than to share my own "little kitchens".

Our apt complex has small kitchens too so I understand how hard it is to work w/ a small area. The apts are 900 sq ft and I use the smaller 18cft frigs. The stove tops are built in and a wall oven beside them. Barely any counterspace but actually lots of cabinet storage--galley style w/ no dishwasher.

Here is a link that might be useful: My craigslist ad

Hey guys!

I am almost done with the rental remodel! FINALLY!!!

I have the picture below. Go up to the top of this page and you will see the before picts. What do you guys think????