Gellchom, I can't imagine it going any better! You sound very sense-able and caring as well as tactful. MFTO also sounds very resonable. Your warm and welcoming offer of an open door (or bed) couldn't be sweeter. Good job on the MIL front, you're gonna be great!

You handled it perfectly IMO.

Alexa

And it could be that FMTO's mother...TO's MLTB...LOL! To enter acronym hell...is not the "organize the party" type and all the help you care to give will be welcome....but maybe after FMTO's DS's wedding she will want to be more involved.
So far I think you are batting 100.
Linda C

I agree, ya done good. After all, it's not your fault the hotel is in demand. AND that's one major decision that is done - which is a good thing!

The hotel sounds so much nicer than the social hall at the synagogue. I bet they are happy that you moved that decision along -- and in such a nice non-pushy way. Good job.

I agree, I think you did just fine. I hope all the future decisions turn out as well!

Annie

Actually the social hall at the synagogue is great. They remodeled it recently, and I have seen it look absolutely spectacular. "Social hall" sounds icky, but it's actually a very nice party room. For a winter wedding, I'd lean toward it, because it's nice not to have to change locations in bad weather. For summer, it's not a big deal to move.

There are advantages to using it, too -- you can use any (kosher) caterer you want, and you can buy your own liquor. For our family, there is a BIG saving, too, because they would waive the 18% (of the catering bill) facility charge for us. Nice perk for clergy, eh? But it's nice to have the reception where the out of town guests will be staying (there will be a lot; NONE of our many relatives lives here, and we all like to attend everything!). That way if people come with little kids, they can be upstairs with sitters (we will hire people we know) if they are not included in the reception (dunno what they will decide about that) or if they "expire" early, and their parents don't have to leave early.

Anyway, I think they are going with the hotel; I'll find out tomorrow when they tell me if I need to run over there with a deposit.

Newest issue:
FMTO's mom tells me that they expect about 60 to attend from their side. Thing One says they expect about 50 of their friends (I think that's invites, though, not predicted attendance). Well, our relatives alone, not counting a single friend, total substantially more than that. And with the wedding here, it will be more awkward not to invite friends (and they will all be able to come). I think the total number still would be within the size they wanted, and we would be more than happy to pay extra for having more guests. (Heck, I'm ready to pay for everything for the whole rest of the holiday weekend, too. Weddings, bar mitzvahs, etc. are a huge deal in our family! We love them.) The problem is how to do that tactfully so as not to make FMTO's family uncomfortable about either the money or the imbalance of the guest list.

So I need your advice again.

How have you handled this/seen it handled successfully and gracefully? How would you like to have it handled if you were in their position?

(Of course, I already mentioned this to the wedding coordinator so she can help communicate it if necessary. THAT is why I hired her!)

I come from the same kind of clannish family. You have to invite them all. And they all come. Will you be seeing FMTO's folks soon? It's easier to do in person. Otherwise, make a phone call. This is the kind of thing that's best done soon, done lightly with a laugh, and done honestly. Unless you have reason to think that the machatunim are touchy and difficult people--I'm no good with those. :) Usually the hard feelings occur when people aren't clear about touchy subjects. A vague promise to "contribute to the festivities" is more graceful and delicate, but is so meaningless in the particulars that it doesn't help anything. "Here's a check for 15 grand," is crass, but very clear.

It's important to have a dollar amount in mind, as well as a number of guests, because the price per person, as I'm sure you know, includes a lot more than the meal (invitations and misc. printing, decor, favors, etc., and possibly things like parking, service and other hotel charges). There's also the additional paperwork that has to be done to keep track of who's coming, who's allergic to fish, etc., so it would be good to offer to help with that too.

Make a list of number of invitations and count number of invitees (i.e., including children, plus one's, etc.). Uncut. Make a good guess from past experience how many from that will actually come. Add twenty. That way you'll have some actual numbers rather than just the "How big is your family????" question.

Then the straightforward thing is to say, couched in words appropriate to the people you're talking to, "You are such lovely people, and I'm sure in all your dreams of your little girls' weddings you didn't expect a mob scene. I've made a list of all the closest family, the kids' friends, and the locals we can't offend by excluding. This is what FMTO's marrying into, and we hope you'll enjoy our friends and relatives as much as we do. From what FMTO says, I think you were planning to invite significantly fewer people than we will be. In no way do we want to lessen her joy in the day, or to interfere with your plans, and the last thing I would want to do is overwhelm you with the size of our guest list. We also don't want to exclude any of our loved ones who want to share in the kids' happiness. We just hope you know that we fully expect to take responsibility for the magnitude of our list and will happily pay for the multitudes."

Or something like that. Then give some concrete numbers so that the folks know what you're actually offering.

Good luck!!

(BTW, you sound like you'll be an awesome m-i-l!)

I think it is OK, but I'd definately take a look at the list and really think hard about who you might be able to leave off. Some of the "would be nice" but "not necessary" folks. One option would be to throw an informal "Welcome to our clan" party for your whole gang's side, after the wedding. I know families who have done that.

Oh dear, I'm no help at all. Fortunately Amanda and David both come from equally big, equally "clannish" families and both sides have relatives who are just looking for a reason to be offended if they are excluded.

Of course, Amanda and David are paying for most of their wedding themselves, so it doesn't matter how many or from which side of the family...

Very good luck on this one, I can see that it would be a touchy subject to broach.

Annie

Thanks for your responses. You all are the best.

Pillog, I did pretty much everything that you suggested (although not as beautifully). I told FMTO and Machetenesteh (TOFMIL) that I anticipated that the number of our relatives that would come is going to be pretty big, and I gave a rough estimate. (I didn't think it was necessary to add that the wedding being here increased the number of local friends a bit, and the likelihood of those people accepting to near 100%; it's obvious.) I also made it clear that we are more than happy to pay more, accordingly.

I had already given Thing One a dollar figure they can count on, and told him that there would probably be more, but I wouldn't know exactly how much until I knew how many people I would be entertaining for the rest of the weekend and whether anyone else would be participating in that. Between you and me, I am sure we will be able to contribute enough to "top off" any of the wedding expenses they will want if they run short. Better to let them plan prudently, then add more. I told them also to "spend our money first" -- i.e., if they go UNDER budget, THEY should keep the difference.

Speaking later with FMTO, I told her that money aside, I didn't want her family to feel swamped by our numbers; what did she think? She told me she had thought about that, too, but that as long as it wasn't something like 90:10, it was fine. I said I'm hoping that by the time we get to Sunday of that weekend, we'd all be feeling like one family anyway -- and she seemed to love that.

So I am very, very lucky! I appreciate the compliments you are giving me. But it is very easy to be a good FMIL to FMTO. I read about DIL's complaining that their MILs try to be too close, and others who complain that their MILS don't treat them like a daughter. Who can guess which DIL will feel which way -- not to mention that the same person can feel both ways, sometimes even at the same time. But lucky, lucky, me -- FMTO seems to LOVE it when we treat her like a much-loved daughter. I would try, but I doubt I would do a very good job of being a MIL to the DIL I read about who suggested a rule that after a baby is born, the MIL should not visit or even call for two weeks. !!!!!!!!!

It also can't hurt that I gave the hotel the deposit and offered to be the one to sign the contract. :-) I don't mind; it really doesn't matter. What is significant is that FMTO and Machetenesteh also said that they felt like it really doesn't matter. That tells me that they feel like we are all doing this together and that they are comfortable with that -- not that they feel I am taking over.

(By the way, Thing Two came with me to meet with the guy at the hotel. She took pictures for FMTO. She LOVED it when people thought she was the bride.)

It's not that we HAVE to invite lots of relatives or they will be offended or something. We WANT to invite them all. That's how our family, including us, love it. Thing One is very definite about wanting to invite all his cousins. (And that is a LOT of cousins.)

Our friends all understand, and they won't be offended, either, if we can't invite them. We will be disappointed, though. But that's how it is. Even if we didn't invite ANY friends, we would still outnumber FMTO's parents' lists by a lot, so we are really going to have to hold back on friends (assuming sentimental Thing One lets us! Well, that's between him and FMTO).

I agree that a big "welcome" party before or after the wedding is usually the perfect solution. When we got married (in Milwaukee), that's what my in-laws (in New York) did: a big party about a month before the wedding. All their friends and local relatives, and the handful of my relatives who lived in the NYC area (plus my parents), came to that party. None of their friends then came to the actual wedding too, but remember that travel was much more expensive then (1982) and it was accordingly much rarer for people to travel for friends' kidz' weddings. It really was perfect; my in-laws got to be the hosts for their own friends, the friends felt like they were "at the wedding" (they sort of functionally were), and no one had to overspend.

The problem with doing that in our situation, though, is that the wedding is here in our city. So if we gave a big party for them and invited all our friends, it would feel like a "B list" party (or worse, a "give-my-kid-a-gift-anyway" party) in a way that it somehow wouldn't if the wedding were elsewhere.

So I think we just have to count on our friends to understand. I know they will. This is a problem everyone has to face to some extent. It was an issue for us with the kidz' b'nei mitzvah because, as my husband is the cantor, we get invited to everything. Most, of course, we know are just courtesy invitations, and some, of course, we know are invitations we would have gotten anyway. But there are a lot in the gray area, and I always worry that they will be hurt if we don't reciprocate. But if anyone ever was, word hasn't gotten back to me. We are fortunate to live in a very low-drama community!

Almost as nice and supportive as THIS GW community. Thank you for taking the time to read all this and to give me your excellent advice and insights. It is SO helpful, you just have no idea.

Oh, you are lucky!! It's so much easier dealing with people who are pleased to be pleased. I hope FMTO's attitude betokens a pleasant homelife for TO. My mother grew up at a physical distance from a lot of her cousins so was horrified at the invitation list from my father's family for my brother's bris. And that was just the locals--there are two other branches in different states. The d-i-l you read about with the two week rule obviously doesn't have an old fashioned Jewish family. ;)

Elopements were very popular when I was in my teens. My father would just shake his head. Then he'd warn me, "You can run away for the wedding, but you can't escape the reception. It'll just happen when you get back." When members of the family have wanted more intimate weddings, they keep the invitation list for the ceremony down to 25 or less, then have a reception(s) for all those whom they should have invited. It does work. At least around here, rather than being thought of as a plea for a present, these are usually betoken the idea that a lesser present is appropriate. Though, come to think of it, one would only invite people to that kind of non-ceremony reception who would send a present anyway, so there's less worry about appearing grabby.

I totally get the whole "B" list party caution in your position. With all those invitations to return, etc., you don't want people to think that it's a roundup of obligation invites.

One thing you could do if everything snowballs is to do a whole week of Shevah Brachot parties, if the kids are willing.

What I think makes you sound like an awesome m-i-l is that you think about FMTO's feelings, and that you act to make her feel comfortable and happy. This is the essence of good manners, respect and love. If you can do that, and shrug off any little lapses she might make as the mistakes of youth, I think you'll have a great relationship.

You're getting great advice and seem to have everything under control. I can't really help because my family is relatively small. But I thought I'd just throw in my 2 cents worth of support.

Deciding whom to invite (and whom to leave out) has to be THE ONE HARDEST THING when planning a wedding. It was the one thing that EVERYONE had an opinion about. It caused more strife in my first wedding than any other issue.

And what ended up happening? We invited some folks that I believe scratched their heads wondering why we invited them. And some folks who we didn't invite felt slighted. Whatcha gonna do?

I guess you just figure out what makes the most sense for you and go for it. No perfect answer. And especially since your husband is clergy - hoo boy!

Gell, I wish you the best of luck figuring this all out. But I also know that you'll handle it sensibly and gracefully.

And I'm definitely looking forward to hearing all the future details. I'm taking notes!!

Ok. I come from a huge Catholic family where most everyone still lives in the same area, and they love attending weddings. Whenever someone in the family marries a person that is not from the area, and has a small family, we still invite everyone. Yes, our friends and family will outnumber the other side --- sometimes it's even the 90:10 ratio. But it is usually handled very gracefully by the ushers at the wedding. They just seat people on both sides of the church so that it looks even, not just on the side that they were invited to "see". Everyone understands and it doesn't look as obvious that one side is sooooo outnumbered. No one but the bride, groom, and their parents really know the exact numbers for each side. By the time we get to the reception things are joyous and festive, and we are usually just one big happy family anyway.

I agree that you shouldn't have a party for the "B" list. Either you invite people to the wedding, or you don't invite them at all when you live in the same town. The only exception to this would be if you had a VERY small wedding (immediate family only), then a separate party for all of your friends might be acceptable. I also think you will have some hurt feelings if you invite some friends, but not others if your family is one that usually has big events. TO may be of some help here in this decision, and explaining this to FMTO.

I think you are doing a great job and would love to have a MIL like you.

FMTO's sister's wedding was this weekend. I am so glad we attended, for a million reasons! Here are just a few ...

1. It was a beautiful, fun wedding! And seeing Thing One and FMTO as attendants was like a sneak preview (not to mention seeing FMTO's sister in a wedding gown)

2. I LOVED meeting all the relatives, who all were great, and also the many family friends who went out of their way to get to know me (I keep saying "me," not us, because my husband could only be there for a few hours -- he couldn't even stay for dinner, because he had to catch a plane. People seemed very touched that he made the effort under the circumstances, though). This was certainly pleasant, but it was also important because it made me see that FMTO's family, like ours, loves to get close with the new family, so they won't be overwhelmed by our side, and also because it seems like it would support FMTO's parents and relatives attending pre-wedding events we will have.

3. Most important: everyone got along just fine. I am sure there must have been tension, but there were no obvious signs of it, and both families seemed to be impressed with the other's efforts. I was able to spend lots of time with both sides of FMTO's family and their friends, and everyone seemed fine with that. FMTO was worried about that, but it was just fine.

So! Lucky for me and my family, lucky for Thing One, and lucky for poor, sweet FMTO, who was so worried -- both that everything went so well, and also that the other wedding was first! How fortunate was that. We really have confidence now.

Machetenesteh asked me to give her a week before we start working on the next wedding. Stand by ...

Thanks for the update,gellchom, I thought of you this weekend as Amanda and I were working on a guest list for her wedding. I had it all sectioned out for her: This is my side of the family, this is your Dad's side of the family, these are cooking forum friends, this is the office, these are friends of mine that you don't know but I want them invited anyway, these are Elery's immediate family, these are your Uncle Gordy's (my brother) best friends and they've known me their whole lives so even if you don't know them, we still have to invite them. These people used to work with your Grandma and knew you when you were small. These are the ones from the police agencies that were around when you were born. (grin) You get the idea....

And now David's cousin wants to have a "joint" bridal shower with me so we'll rent a hall and invite a hundred people or so from both sides. We'll see how that goes.

I'm glad yours went so well, it gives me hope for this!

Annie

Annie, remind me of when Amanda's wedding will be. How many guests do you thing you will have?

Thing One and Future Mrs. Thing One came in this weekend to work on wedding plans. This was the first time FMTO even got to see the reception venue except on line! Luckily, she LOVED it.

I am SO LUCKY. She is such a doll. Both of them are being so un-bridezilla about this. I am so proud.

They met with the coordinator, a stationer, and a floristm and will soon make final choices of photographer and florist. They didn't care about seeing a lot of each, although she did a lot of on line research. This is one of the many times I am so glad I hired the coordinator; if she says a photographer or florist is good, honest, and reliable, and "right" for us, then we know it's so, and as long as they gave us a reasonable quote, we're good to go -- no need to comparison shop anymore.

I was so, so, so happy with some of the things she said. Some of the things I was nervous about, it turns out, she was thinking the same thing as I was. For instance, the problem of having many more people to invite than the room will hold; she had been thinking of the same solution I had (send out the out of town invitations quite early, so that when some decline, we can add other local people and no one will know they were "alternates"). And they decided to do black tie, which I love.

I need to look for a long green gown. The color of the wedding is "pear" or something -- anyway, a soft green, not emerald or hunter. She did ask me to wear green and long, and I am happy to do so for her. Any tips? Petite evening gowns are really hard to find, let alone in green. I'm only 5'1".

Now here is what I need your advice on (I suppose I should do it in the wedding forum, but this is where I get great advice!):
Several of our friends have asked to give parties, help, etc. Most will be helping with Friday night dinner for the out of towners, a couple will (I hope) do hospitality bags and help with the hospitality suite. But two (at least) want to give a shower. I told them that the problem with that is that we don't yet know if we can invite many local people, so there might not be enough to have a shower. One of these friends said, "No, you definitely can invite people to the shower even if they aren't invited to the wedding; that's definitely how people are doing it now; it's perfectly fine," and the other one didn't disagree. Now, I am sure if she says she is seeing this, she is, and maybe in her hometown where she is still invited to things a lot, that's how they do it. But I am really, really uncomfortable with that.

I've been in this bind myself -- I offer to do something for a friend's child's wedding or bar mitzvah or whatever, and then a couple of weeks later I find I am assigned to a committee to do something else entirely. I hate that, but that's how it goes. I'm reconciled to it, but I don't want to do it to my friends. If they want to give a shower, I don't want to tell them to do something different. I was hoping that FMTO would say she'd prefer not to have a shower here, but she said she did want one.

So I guess I am down to hoping that they either change their mind and host something else, or that we end up with enough local invites that we can do a shower. I do think that is starting to look more likely, if only because two of Jack's cousins' children also have announced weddings for next year, so we may have some fall-off in his family.

But what if those two friends still want to invite some other people who aren't invited to the wedding? It's not like they would only have names and addresses from us; we have a lot of the same friends.

Can you help me handle this?

Thanks so much, friends!

I love sharing this with you.

Say you are very uncomfortable inviting people to a shower who are not invited to the wedding....say that's just not something you would do!
I k ow it was a few years back but my daughter had 5 showers....and it was a little difficult to limit it to that.
One was college friends and sorority sisters, another was the grooms relatives, then her grandmother's friends a neighborhood friends shower and the big one, a big group of our friends for an evening cocktail party dinner shower.
Lots of shower/parties are fun!
But please don't allow someone to invite people to a shower who are not invited to the wedding.
Happy new family!!!
Linda C

I agree. Your instincts are absolutely right, Gellchom. Shower guests must be invited to the wedding. The exception: if the wedding is immediate family only. I have been to two showers like that in the past year, and of course everyone understood. We were all close friends of the bride's mother or the bride.

I agree. I don't like the idea of inviting people to a shower who won't be invited to the wedding. I wouldn't do it. It's always been my understanding that the bride supplies the list for a shower. Obviously, she consults with her family and the groom and his family, but what I'm getting at is that it isn't the responsibility of those giving the shower to decide who will be invited.

It's one thing for them to say Oh, you can invite people who won't be invited to the wedding, but the final word is the bride's, again with input from the families.

I'm wondering how far in advance you will actually know which out of town guests are not coming. How far in advance will you be able to say if you are going to be able to add a lot of in-towners to the list? Can the final shower list wait for that date?

Do your two friends who want to give a shower plan to do it together? If not, can you suggest that? I think more than one shower with the same people invited taxes everyone's enthusiasm.

Oh, yes, they mean to co-host it. Probably with at least one other friend.

I'm not sure what I can say if they want to invite people who aren't going to be invited to the wedding. The bride usually gives the list to the hosts, but remember, FMTO doesn't live here and never did. She knows a few of our friends, all of whom will be invited to the wedding, but not many yet. (That's why these friends wanted to give a shower, so everyone can meet her.) So I would be the one giving the list. None of our relatives live here, so it would be just our friends -- most of whom are the hosts' friends, too.

And that's why I am afraid that they will want to invite people we can't include in the wedding. I am anticipating (maybe) a conversation like this:

Lulu: Wait, I don't see Petunia on the list; we should invite her, too. She's part of this same group we're inviting.

Me: I didn't put Petunia on because I don't think we'll be able to invite her and Durk to the wedding.

Lulu: Oh, that's okay. She'll understand. She knows you can invite everyone to the wedding, but she will feel bad if Cathy and I don't invite her to the shower. It will be awkward for Lily and Rose and Violet, too, if they are all invited, but not Petunia. The wedding is different -- Petunia knows the others all saw Thing One grow up like a nephew, and she and Durk moved here too late to have the same kind of relationship with him. But she's close with you and will want to be at the shower. I understand how you feel, Gellchom -- you will be put in an awkward spot if we do invite her -- but remember that we will be put in an awkward spot if we don't!

And I think I would see her point!

So how do I handle this? Even if we have enough locals to have enough for a good-sized shower, they may still want to invite another person or two who is only a pretty close friend of mine but a very close friend of theirs, or one of Thing One's teachers, or Lulu's own MIL, or something like that.

I wouldn't worry quite as much if the wedding were in a different city. You know?

It's tricky, but -- may all our problems be like this!

OK, the thing is, when Petunia gets her shower invitation, she may very well assume that means she will be invited to the wedding. I know I would! Then, at some point, she will discover that she is NOT invited. And she may discover that in an awkward way.

As the date approaches, she'll wonder where here invitation is. Then Lily or Rose or Violet will casually mention something to Petunia about the invitation or the wedding, because they will also naturally assume she is invited to the wedding since she was at the shower. And then comes the moment when Petunia has to say, Oh, well, I didn't receive an invitation to the wedding.

OR Petunia suddenly realizes the wedding is just a few weeks off and she never got an invitation. Does she call you, gell, and say, I never got it? Because, after all, she was at the shower, so her wedding invitation must have gotten lost in the mail. And if she calls, how do you reply? THAT'S an embarrassing situation! Or if she doesn't call and just comes to the realization that she isn't invited, how will she feel, taking into account that she WAS invited to the shower?

Or, do you just come right out and tell Petunia at the shower, or before the shower(?), that you've invited her to the shower but unfortunately you won't be inviting her to the wedding? Also (IMO) an awkward and embarrassing situation.

So, how do you handle the friends? Well, you just tell them that you're extremely uncomfortable inviting anyone to the shower who won't be invited to the wedding. You make it clear that that is how you feel. If they are really good friends, which it sounds like they are, they should be able to take No for an answer.

Remember, a wedding is a delicate thing. IME, there are always going to be some who wonder why they WERE invited and some who wonder why they WEREN'T. So... maybe that extends to the shower as well. I think I'd feel more funny being invited to the shower and not the wedding than being invited to neither.

I meant to add this at the end and then forgot!

This actually did happen to me once, a very long time ago. I got invited to a shower for a bride with whom I had only recently started a casual friendship. I didn't know her all that well, but she was not from this country, and I figured, hey, she wants to be friends!

But then, I never got invited to the wedding. I was surprised and I felt funny about it. I attributed it to the fact that the bride was not from this country and probably just didn't understand the custom. I'm pretty sure I would have felt much weirder about it had it been someone with whom I'd been friends for a long time and who did know the customs. I don't mean to sound snotty, although I think it reads that way. I just want to say, be careful about letting yourself get talked into doing something against your best judgement.

Who's going to end up with more egg on their face, you, if you invite Petunia to the shower and not the wedding, or LuLu & Cathy if they, at your request, don't invite Petunia to the shower?

As a side note, I never became friends with that girl. She and I really had no more contact after the shower. I never did figure out why she invited me.

"I told her that I wanted to offer to treat for a trip or trips here for planning anyway, and anytime would be fine; after all, she's a daughter in the family now, so she might as well just take her own key and come anytime she wants -- she can just show up at the breakfast table and we won't be alarmed".
Such a warm welcome for your future DIL, lucky girl.

It's really very simple....just give the showr givers a copy of the guest list...
And ssay "These are the people invited to the wedding, and of course no one should be asked to a shower who isn't on the wedding list."
Linda C

LindaC, I completely agree with you that no one should be invited to a shower who isn't invited to the wedding (at least in our circumstances; good sized wedding, here in our city). But the problem is that the at least one of the friends who wants to host doesn't agree:

[from my first post about the shower]

"One of these friends said, 'No, you definitely can invite people to the shower even if they aren't invited to the wedding; that's definitely how people are doing it now; it's perfectly fine,' and the other one didn't disagree. Now, I am sure if she says she is seeing this, she is, and maybe in her hometown where she is still invited to things a lot, that's how they do it."

Showing her an etiquette book or something wouldn't help -- she isn't unaware of the rule, she just says that it's not being followed in our community now, and that other people will want to be invited. Even if that's so, I still don't want to do it.

So although I am totally with you on this -- that's why I'm asking for advice on how to handle it -- I couldn't say what you suggested without it sounding like (and, I guess, actually being) a criticism of her manners -- hardly a nice thing to do to anyone, let alone a good friend, and one who is hosting a shower for my kids. I already told them I wasn't comfortable with inviting people who aren't invited to the wedding, but they still might try to. That's what I need advice on handling diplomatically.

Simply say...."I am very uncomfortable asking people to a shower who are not on the wedding list. Please don't include them."
and if they go over your wishes....well....you did your best.

Thank you all -- you give such good advice.

I forgot to mention that when Lulu said she wanted to invite others besides wedding guests, I suggested a recipe shower or something where people don't buy gifts -- on the margin, but better, anyway. Nope; she and Cathy didn't like that idea.

I have a feeling that we will have enough people for a shower. I just remembered that FMTO said something that made me think that her mother would be coming in for it, and for all I know, her sister (MOH), and maybe even some or all of her grandmothers, stepmother, little half-sisters ... who knows ... and then of course Thing Two will probably insist on coming in, too.

Thing Two is taking her role as a bridesmaid very seriously! She is freaking out because she is just certain that FMTO will choose a bridesmaid dress she doesn't like. I just keep my mouth shut ....

You say...."I am so sorry, Lulu.....we don't invite people to a shower who aren't invited to the wedding. I know some of your friends seem to think it's OK...But really we are most uncomfortable doing that. How about if we save those people for a post nuptual celebration"...
Then go on to explain the space constraints and how the numbers have to be limited and how yo would LOVE to invite everyone you ever knew....then recite May/Lowspark's scenario...I think that's the clincher!
Linda C

It's inevitable, I suppose, that just when things are progessing so smoothly, there's that one difficult circumstance.

I would acknowledge their generosity in sponsoring a shower and the local custom, but then simply re-iterate that your family AND the bride's are not comfortable with extending shower invitations to those who will not be guests at the wedding.

So, "We appreciate your generous offer to put on a shower and we understand that here not all shower guests are invited to the wedding, but I have discussed this with our family and the bride's and we are not comfortable with that option/don't wish to do that." (second wording is more assertive)

Repeat as needed.

If despite everything the hostesses insist on going their own way, all you can do graciously is sigh and surrender.

I would have no problem, if the issue later arose with a guest invited to one occasion and not the other, to clarify why this happened and who was responsible. Most people have experienced one social snag or another with weddings/graduations etc. and will understand.

Carol

Gellcom, I posted this a few years ago on the wedding forum:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/wedding/msg0619462722642.html?22

You and lowspark both responded.

Yes, I was very hurt at the time. I now believe that it was not the bride's (Sally or Mary-I used both names for her) fault. I do think they were working within her parents budget and that was the reason many of the shower guests were not invited to the wedding.

The bride wrote me a beautiful thank you note and apologized for the "lost" invitation. She is still a lovely young woman, and I still love her.

I am not implying that this is your situation-I know from what you've written that it isn't. I just remember how I felt at the time.

And I don't mean to sound rude, but when I tell my (our) friends my thoughts and wishes they respect them, as I do theirs.

I know your friends mean well, but it can be a touchy situation.

Di

Sometimes people forget that the wedding (and all subsidiary events) is not about them or their preferences. It is about the bride and groom and their families.

I believe very strongly that anyone offering to host events should accede to the principals' wishes and not introduce unnecessary conflict by insisting on policies which contradict what the families prefer.

(Barring bride/groom zillas, which is clearly not the issue here.)

Carol

Sometimes people forget that the wedding (and all subsidiary events) is not about them or their preferences. It is about the bride and groom and their families.

Ok, so the thing that strikes me is that you sound way more worried about not stepping on Lulu's toes than she is about stepping on yours. Not a bit surprising!

I think I'd probably say something like this:
You know Lulu, I've really been agonizing over this issue of inviting Petunia (and others) to the shower, seeing as how they will not be invited to the wedding. I'm sure you're right that it's ok. It's totally just me and my silly old ways, but I really feel strongly that I don't want to do it. You're just being the sweetest hostess wanting to include everyone and here I am being the trouble maker. But you are such a good friend, I know you'll understand and do what I ask even though I'm the crazy one!

In other words:
praise Lulu
put all the blame on yourself
and end it by saying how sweet and wonderful she is to go ahead and do it your way even though she's right and you're wrong.

I've found that by taking the blame for things I can sometimes get what I want. And after all, who cares if someone wants to think of me being in the wrong, especially if I get my way in the end!

---
Interesting old thread Di! It does bring up another thought, one which won't help gellchom at all but I just can't help bring it up since gell is usually the one pointing this out.

In fact, inviting people to the shower and not the wedding MIGHT be the the new norm. It doesn't, however, tell us anything about how those invitees feel. Because as you have pointed out many times, just because someone doesn't like something you've done, it doesn't mean they'll tell you. Right? Instead they'll think it, maybe mention it to some other friend, maybe stew in it, whatever. They might not say anything to you, but the hurt is still there.

I cannot tell you how comforting it is to have all your support and advice!

Lowspark, I am going to commit your suggested script to memory. It's perfect.

However, I have reason to think that I may catch a lucky break and not have to do anything.

My closest friend, "Fifi," who, as it goes around here, is sort of organizing all the people who want to help, is working on the Friday night dinner for the out of towners, along with "Kiki," who is hosting it at her house (I know!), and several others. Fifi just told me that AFTER (I checked) I had that conversation with Lulu and Cathy, Cathy sent Fifi an email saying something like "be sure to include us in whatever you're planning for the wedding." The wording wasn't crystal clear, but both Fifi and I got the sense she was speaking for Lulu, too.

So that would mean that Fifi and Kiki, who already have 4 others on their "team," would get another 2 pairs of hands and financial contributions for what is really a big job, which I know Fifi appreciates (I hope Kiki does -- Fifi will handle that, bless her).

Now, how did I not give "Cathy" a silly name, too?

It also means no shower here. I doubt Thing One will care, and they certainly don't need another set of gifts, but FMTO may be disappointed. I doubt she'll be destroyed, though, and in the end she may be glad not to have to plan another trip (I am sure her relatives won't be disappointed not to have to come here twice). If she really, really wants another shower, well -- Thing Two and FMTO's sister both live in Boston, as, I believe, do some of FMTO's friends; maybe they will give her a shower -- I can slip Thing Two some $$ to help. (Yes, they are immediate family, but they are also bridesmaid and MOH, so I suppose that would be okay.) But I am going to keep my big mouth shut about that for now!

This certainly is an example of not doing or saying anything until you must -- sometimes the problem changes or even goes away entirely. Glad I didn't say anything to Lulu yet.