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Help...! - General Finishes Gel Stain Kitchen Cabinets Gone Bad!

genga
10 years ago

Hi There,

I have just begun gel staining my builder grade honey oak cabinets. After reading many posts in this forum, as well as others, I convinced my wife that this will be a cost efficient solution to our kitchen upgrade budget restrictions. We tested a few different colors, amount of coats, and final decided on 3 coats of Candlelight followed by 2 coats of the top coat urethane, both by GF.

My plan was to practice the technique on all the inside portions of the cabinet/doors, then by the time I have completed all the interior sections, I will have mastered the art and can now begin on the exterior and frame. I started off following my plan and making improvement that kept me very hopeful. I first applied too much, and the final look appeared like brown paint. Then I applied to little (or wiped off too much) and only increased the darkness of the shade a few hews. Finally I switched my technique a little, to where I would apply, and spread to cover the entire surface with a foam brush and then wipe the access off with a rag. Any lines or blotches, i would feather in with a dry brush. I also added the step of lightly sanding before the first coat. I tried this on an earlier door and didn't see much difference but the consensus is light sanding is a good idea to give the stain something to bite onto. I used 100 grit, and will probably start using 200-220, since the 100 left some scratches.

So, I have been making progress..... Until last night! I was getting ready for the second coat of stain, 24 hrs after I applied the first, and for some reason, as I was wiping off the second coat with a rag, I wiped off the 1st coat in random areas. The areas are completely random, but most area appearing around the edges. I am now on my 7th inside door, and have not come across this before, and for some reason it happened on the entire batch I was doing (7th 8th 9th and 10th doors...) So I am trying to figure out, what I did differently to make this happen. The dry time was 24 hrs, and I have been giving 24-48 hrs on previous doors to dry. The only reason why I would wait 48 is because I was too tired to stain. Could that have been why? Another theory is that I didn't scuff these areas good enough when prepping. But I have been prepping them exactly the same way I have been prepping previous doors, if not more. Another theory is that I mixed the gel in the can before applying the second coat, but not before applying the 1st. Maybe that had something to do with it?

Here is my prep:

1. Green Scotch brite and water
2. Dry
3. Green Scotch brite and TSP substitute solution (from Home Depot.)
4. Green Scotch brite and water (to wash of the TSP Solution)
5. Dry with paper towel, let sit 10-15 minutes.
6. Apply gel stain with foam brush, liberally.
7. Wipe off with dry foam brush or cloth (technique has changed a few times. I first was only using 1 rag or 1 brush per door, but they were both so wet with stain, I would just move the stain around and not take any off, I changed to follow with a dry brush or cloth to wipe off.
8. Feather lines or obvious blotching with dry brush.
9. Wait 24 hrs.
10. Repeat 6-9 for coat 2
11. Repeat 6-9 for coat 3
12. Wait 24 hrs and apply 1 coat poly with foam brush or rag.
13. Repeat 12.

This is pretty much how I have been doing the 7 interior doors up to this point. I added another 2 steps in between 5 and 6 on a couple doors as well as these which is,
5. a lightly sand.
5. b Remove dust with tac cloth.

As mentioned before I haven't seen a huge difference, but will likely continue with gently sanding because it makes sense and I have read another bunch of journals who have done the same thing.

So why this issue now? Any help would be greatly appreciated. See blemish in top corner of door near where hinge was removed.

Comments (18)

  • User
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Seems to me you are doing a great deal of unnnecessary work. All that sanding/washing is actually counter productive and is glazing hard grain surfaces and clogging softer areas. Plus, you washed with water/TSP and rinsed with water and only allowed 15 minuted for drying. That means the gel stain(modified paint) has nothing to stick to.

    Gel stain is not really a stain, it is a modified paint. That means it is not absorbed into the wood like a real stain or a dye..

    Real stains do not color most woods evenly---because different grains sections absorb the stain at different rates. Dyes do a little better, since the substance is made up of smaller particles.

    That creates blotching, which requires pretreatment to minimize.

    The reason furniture makers get such impressive finishes is simply because they have processes to deal with all the differences and have stain/dye/finish/toner/etc. recipes that are easily(sprayed) applied.

    I've used gel stain once. I had a project where I needed to stain birch plywood to a dark cherry color. I was not happy with the results, so will probably not use it again. Back to the dyes and oil based stains.

  • klem1
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In general,I agree with Handy and sloyd. The spot in the picture where color is much lighter makes me suspect 2 possibilities. One is that cabinets are not stain grade. That notion is reinforced by your calling them "honey oak". If those words are on labels attached to cabinets,they are either meant to be used as is or the manufacture is attempting to hype thier product. A pic of the label and/or brochure would be helpful in that respect.
    The other possibility that comes to mind is there is glue or other residue on random places which repels stain.
    Have you looked into either of those?
    I have to say you should be comended for starting with unconspicious areas and asking for help before doing the intire project. Normaly people would be asking how to easily remove what had been applied.

  • lazy_gardens
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Too much water, not enough solvents, not enough dry time to let the water dry before staining.

    I scrubbed my cabinets with soapy water to remove water-soluble dirt,like syrup splatters and jam, then scrubbed with mineral spirits and steel wool to remove greasy hand grime and oil splatters. Then I let them sit overnight to thoroughly dry. The steel wool had roughed up the surface enough.

    Then I wiped on one or two light coats of gel stain - it's easier to control if you wipe on several thin layers than if you apply it heavily and try to remove the excess. Then one coat of the gel top coat.

    It looks like you hit an area where there was a lot of oily residue from hands, or just had too many layers on top of each other and the bottom one hadn't stuck well.

  • genga
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for all the reply's. Quick update:

    I received a reply email from GF, with a step by step prep and gel staining guide for woods that have already been finished. The GF rep who replied felt that it was the dry time (of the 1st coat) that caused the spots. They recommended 24-48 hours in between coats, I only allowed 24 hrs. GF also recommended waiting (after cleaning with water and alcohol) 2 hours to dry after the prep. I waited 15 min.

    Going on what the GF rep said, and the responses I have received here, I will wait longer after prep and wait 48 hrs in between coats and keep everyone posted as to the difference. In response to the responders:

    @ handymac - The reason I went for the GF gel stain, was because I didn't need to sand the wood to the grain, and it has received many positive reviews. I have a suspicion that the good reviews are only from the Java because it gets so dark that you cant see the streaks and blotching. So I guess I am daring with the Candlelight (even though its 3 coats) the look I am going for is a dark redish brown and the Candlelight did the trick. The photo is just 2 coats, so after 3 coats stain and 2 coats finish, it has a real rich look (when done right...). I am hoping to avoid the blotching and streaking by practicing the technique on the back side of the doors.

    @klem1 - I may be using the term loosely. The cabinets were probably installed in the 90's (before I bought the house), along with the green Formica counter-top that was replaced last week with granite and is now in my back yard, getting ready for its funeral. I say "honey" because they are yellowy orangy and appear to have a hint of stain on them and not just clear coats of poly. It could be 20+ years of residue. I am guessing oak because its pretty grainy, and looks a lot like what is being called oak cabinets today. Its definitely wood, throughout as the same grain is seen in both front and back of the doors and even the frame. I "think" that I cleaned the doors fine, just as much I cleaned the previous doors without a problem. I am leaning towards the culprit being the dry times in between prep and stain and 1st and 2nd coat. My plan B if this fails is paint them white, and plan C would be to reface it myself.

    Anyways - I will keep you all posted as I progress.

  • rstanny
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Don't panic. Yes, you found a spot (spots?) where the wood was more sealed than elsewhere. Try sanding lightly and then glazing the light areas with thin coats of gel stain.

    Try feathering in the color with a soft art brush if a thin piece of cotton t-shirt wrapped around a finger and dampened with stain doesn't afford sufficiently precise control. In either case, apply with feather-light strokes. Darken the light area just a little at a time. Let each coat dry well or you'll wipe it off when you apply the next coat. When you have a match you will need to let it dry a good long time (conceivably a week, possibly longer) before you cover it with a clear coat. Then cover it very carefully. Otherwise applying the clear coat is likely to remove the glaze. If the waiting seems too long, take up a hobby.

    If you have trouble covering the glazed area you can try to seal it first with dewaxed shellac (e.g., Zinsser Sealcoat, available in cans or spray). Note that shellac that has not been dewaxed can cause adhesion problems with polyurethane varnishes. All the gel stains and gel varnishes I'm aware of are polyurethane based. Also note that Zinsser amber shellac is not dewaxed.

    For what it's worth, the most beautiful finish protocol for oak, I think, is the one described by Jeff Jewitt at the Homestead Finishing website. Google "Jeff Jewitt Mission Oak finish". His method yields very good approximations to Stickley oak finishes. He describes their use on white oak. I've used the method on red oak and have been very happy with the results. The procedure is basically dying (to establish the background color), followed by sealing, filling the grain with a darker gel stain glaze, followed by a thin clear coat finish. The results are hard to beat.

    I used this procedure to color a light area in an early 20th C oak file cabinet where I had taken the finish down to bare wood in order to remove a dark cyan ink stain caused by a bungled attempt to clear a clogged jet in a printer that had sat on the cabinet (don't ask). I was able to match things up surprisingly well. If you only have one or a few light spots you could try sanding them to bare wood and using this procedure. You would, of course, want to experiment on areas that don't show, first.

  • richardshome
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    any updates?

    results?

    conclusions?

    thoughts?

  • tamfam
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I and a gazillion others with honey oak kitchen cabinets would love to see an update. The photo you posted did look very promising. Please let us know how it all turned out.Thanks

  • Tamera Pugh
    8 years ago

    I too had this problem. I found that the area that didn't take the stain was right where the door's were handled the most. such as around the knobs. I found that it was due to and oil build up from fingers and dirty hands over the year's. I used a 3M stripping pad and Spray Nine in the area to remove the build up of oil's and then wiped clean with a paper towel. it worked perfectly. no more problems.. hope this helps. :)

  • Kimberly McGraw
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago




    Ok- here is what I have, and what I've done.. 1- On a bathroom vanity that was standard oak. I used GF Georgia Cherry 4 coats 24+ hours dry time between each coat. Appling with sponge/foam brush- waiting just a few minutes then wiping.. then 3 ( 4-6 hour between coats)of GF high performance top coat.. I love love love them!!! (pic included)

    2) mast bath vanity. the Mr. decided he wanted the java on first and then go back to our Georgia Cherry. No problems at all with the java coat - or the first coat of GA cherry on 1/2 the vanity.. Then the spots started showing up - and areas that looked like I wiped off too much.. After reading all the above comments. I now think it is because I didn't let the areas dry that I touched up... will sand a little and retouch

  • richardshome
    8 years ago

    I didn't see your pics?

  • Kimberly McGraw
    8 years ago

    I couldn't get them to post.. Pic up now :)

  • richardshome
    8 years ago

    looks great. did the cabinets have a coating of any sort on it? did you prep them? if so, what did you do?

  • Kimberly McGraw
    8 years ago

    Cleaned, lightly sanded ( I think with 220) cleaned - used a wood cleaner let dry. Then I started putting it on the cabinets and drawers with a sponge/ foam brush (those little black ones) I let it sit a minute then wiped with lightly with cloth. Let dry 24 hours, repeated the stain. I did not sand between coats. I would recommend not doing this where there is direct sunlight (it caused a problem with the stain drying to fast before I could wipe) after 4 coats, I waited and then applied GF high performance top coat. I did 3 but 2 was plenty

  • Kimberly McGraw
    8 years ago

    I over prepped... Don't think you need to do all of that lol

  • Nicole Rutherford
    7 years ago

    This is the color I want my Armoire to be, but right now it's this HORRIBLE pickled oak! Lighter than the light oak color you started out with. Do you think I can get the same results if I don't do anything to make the wood darker to start with? Maybe I should use a darker stain? All I know is I want the finished product to be the exact color as yours. It's beautiful.

  • Sharon McNally
    6 years ago

    I think what you might have encountered is grease, I always degrease cabinets before I do anything to them, and I don't find TSP does the job on grease - it simply deglosses before painting. I use Dollar Tree Awesome Degreaser around the knobs and over oven and cabinets next to it, and/or the Awesome Orange for the nicotine. Wear rubber gloves and use a plastic scrubby to get off the tough parts.

  • Dee Berube
    6 years ago

    Any updated photos? How is it holding up? easy to clean? would you do it again?

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