Water based? oil-based, gel?

Exactly what are we discussing here?

Oil based

To add to what klem wrote, most factory finishes are a recipe of ingredients. They are almost never a single stain/dye/colorant and always include the final finish coat(s).

There are three types of products used to color wood. Dye, stain, and gel stain(which is actually a modified paint).

There are three types of stains/dyes. Water based, oil based, and alcohol based.

There are several different finishes---since colorants are not the final step. Varnishes and polyurethanes come in water based and oil based, alcohol based shellac, and lacquer(which has a seperate dissolver).

Each finish adds to the final color(except water based which generally dries clear.

All that to say simply staining a project often does not achieve the initial goal. That usually causes the person doing the work to be upset/confused/mad and they blame the products instead of the missing information necessary to get the desired results.

Best way to get the desired results are to learn about each product and to experiment with different product combinations.

As noted, staining and finishing is a somewhat complicated, time consuming process. I've been working at it for over 40 years now and still regularly have unhappy surprises when I attempt something new. My best advice is to avoid staining wherever possible, instead choose wood for your project that is the color you want from the get go, eliminating this fraught process entirely. Obviously this won't work if you want electric blue, but for the normal range of wood colors you can usually find a wood that meets the need -- if you want something that looks like walnut, just use walnut and don't mess with stains. If the furniture is already made accept it for what it is and don't try to turn it into something it isn't. Some staining is really desirable, like popping the figure on birdseye or curly maple, or doing a sunburst finish on a mandolin, but much is just trying to make a piece of wood look like something it isn't. This just doesn't seem to be worth the time, effort, or irritation to me.

Contrary to one of the posters above, I've had good success using colored finishes when I've really needed to change the color of the wood for one reason or another. Mostly shellac with dye added, but have also used the colored polyurethanes as a base coat, top finished with clear. I've found them easier to control and less subject to blotching than oil stains.

I think I have a really dysfunctional relationship with oil stains, and will do almost anything to avoid them now. ;-)

Thank you everyone for your comments.

Agree rwiegand, got walnut floors because that is the look I wanted. Unfortunately, walnut doors were not in my budget and the unstained oak doors are too much of a contrast in color.

Fortunately, I have a pro who will be finishing them - I just need to come up with the color I want. Have been working on sample boards.

mdln,may I ask questions that might help me better understand inquiries of this type? Clearly if rwiegand or myself were the "pro" whom you had finishing your items,our choice of material and method would be quite different but both are expected to result in the appearance you have choosen. Odds are "your pro" also has products and methods he's comfortable with. Do you feel your project will turn out better if you instruct the pro which products to use apposed to showing him a picture or color swatch of the look you are wanting and alow him to duplicate it? I feel this is an important area to understand if consumers are to be pleased and contractors are to establish a good reputation.

Was going to big box store to buy some small cans to play with (stain wood sample) in an attempt to find the color I wanted. I'd used Minwax in the past, but not Varathane. Wondered if Varathane would be better.

He (the pro) told me, "just show me the color you want and I can copy it."

Wanted to know which brand was better for ME (not him) to purchase.

I expect HIM to use HIS "pro" products and would NEVER dream of telling him what product to use.

Again, the color with stai9n/dye is not necessarily the color after finishing.

He needs to input what he does, so you can use similar products---stain and finish--- to get the color you want.

Example: Oil based finishes provide a warm amber tone to any wood, stained or not. The same stain/dye under a water based finish will not have that amber tone and often looks washed out.

Thanks handymac. I am confident (and he tells me) that he will be able to reproduce the end-product I'm looking for. I just need to find what I want - so I can show him.

Yes, he does know (and told me) an oil finish gives a warmer yellow look and does not recommend/use water based finishes.

Thanks everyone!

Neither, imo. I am also a novice refinisher - I have helped friends refinish antiques, but this is the first time refinishing my own furniture by myself. I tried stains from both minwax and varathane from the local hardware stores. maybe your stores are different from mine, but I didn't get much knowledgeable advice from the employees at these stores. Luckily, both people on the list and another shopper suggested that I try Old Masters products from the Bengamin Moore store.

I LOVE the Rich Mahogany wiping stain from BM. It was easy to apply and absolutely gorgeous! The stain had more pigment than the stuff I bought (and returned) from the hardware store.The store manager was very helpful and knowledgeable - he helped me choose this one from 4 mahogany stains.

One minwax product that had good reviews from Fine Woodworking magazine, friends and the list is the Minwax wiping polyurethane. It was rated the best resistance and the best value.

I buy supplies and the wiping stain from the local chains and the stains from Benjamin Moore.

Even though we are novices, we want good results. i would be tempted to give up refinishing if the best I could do is the plastic, goppy result of the popular minwax polyshades.

Whatever you choose, try it first on scraps and save your receipts!

@ RocksandRoses - LOL, I did end up asking them to specifically use OldMasters Rich Mahogony - turned out great, love it!

I love it also!

I am tempted to use it on everything!

My next project is a midcentury walnut piece. The original color was a darker walnut - similar to the Old Masters American Walnut. I don't like dark brown walnut stain. I am thinking of trying Special Walnut since it looks like the most "Danish" of their walnut stains. I have some scratches and tiny repairs. I am thinking that a darker stain may be more forgiving for this piece. It may end up rich Mahogany also.

My neighbor is so impressed with my recently refinished dresser tops that he is thinking of refinishing his table and staining it....guess what color....Rich Mahogany.

Rich Mahogany is the new black!

(Speaking of black, I tried the Old Masters Spanish Oak gel stain on my new honey oak toilet seat - it was the only wooden toilet seat I could find. It is nice, but doesn't work with my grey/white/black chromatic plan for the bathroom. That stuff takes forever to dry. Too bad my neighbor had to cut off the original toilet seat with a sawsall...My toilet is seatless. These kind of things never happen on HGTV).

Used american walnut on interior doors because it has extra pigment giving it a deeper intensity, was torn between using this and the dark walnut. It turned out lighter (and they did 2 coats) and a bit redder than I expected. Like it, but love the rich mahogony.

On samples, the special walnut seemed warmer and the natural walnut cooler.

If I used a walnut stain, it would be the special walnut.

I tried the rich mahogany on an interior shelf of my china cabinet. I really like the color. The stain is lighter than the same stain on my test piece. I think it will work best for this piece. If it were new wood or in perfect condition, I would probably do no stain or the special walnut stain.

My bias against walnut stains stems from too many faux colonial walnut stained pieces in my childhood. Most were poorly stained pine, I suppose, I still cringe when I see dark brown stain or avocado green upholstery.

Rich mahogany, on the other hand, makes me very happy. I keep running my hand over the top of my formerly beat up old dresser. I can't wait to see the completed china cabinet with my crystal inside!

My recollection of this article was that the winner was picked in advance. Various products were evaluated, when applied without respect to proper or recommended procedures, and with not too much evaluation criteria. I did a job for a guy shortly after that article came out. When there, he showed me his wood-turning shop. Did mostly bowls. He had a whole cabinet full of Minwax Wipe-On Poly because he said the article said ti was the best. Really, how much wear and tear do decorative turned bowls get? Wipe on varnishes are fine products, but every product has its advantages and disadvantages. When you pick the one or two features most important to you, you get the concomitant attributes that come along with it.

>One minwax product that had good reviews from Fine Woodworking magazine, friends and the list is the Minwax wiping polyurethane. It was rated the best resistance and the best value.

I agree completely with this.
> Even though we are novices, we want good results. i would be tempted to give up refinishing if the best I could do is the plastic, goppy result of the popular minwax polyshades.

I have used and like Minwax wipe-on Poly. (there, I admitted it!)
But it failed me; I built this 146" long (26" wide) cherry countertop; I warned the homeowner not to ever set wet articles on it, but a family member laid a wet towel on it late one evening, and of course it made a bad stain.
This was back in the days before I had heard of waterlox, and the owner did not want a varnished appearance, so the thin minwax was the most protection I could give with the thinnest film build.

BTW, it is a c-top in an old butler's pantry which is now only used for filling the humidifiers, the dining room having been moved to another space back in the 40's, so this room is no longer adjacent to the kitchens.

This is basically a hijack since no stain was used on the cherry.
Casey

Thank you for your comments on the minwax wiping finish. I like to read about other people's experiences with various projects. the cherry counter is gorgeous. It would be heartbreaking to have the finish marred by a towel.

I am using the minwax poly on my "practice" piece, the top of an old dresser. I have done quite a few coats, sanding with 0000 steel wool in between coats. I thought I was done, but lint settled in the "final " coat overnight. I just put a final final coat - I hope. These dressers came from the side of the road and were moved twice. I am happy with the minwax over the stain so far.

I will have to look into waterlox when I refinish my desk and the kitchen table.

I'm pleased this thread that obviously was started as a road to nowhere has been salvaged with exchange of ideas between amatuers interested in making the nessary effort to improve their skill. IMO,GW forums is best for that type discussion apposed to someone popping in to ask "in 25 words or less,teach me everything you learned over the last 20 years". Bob Flexner can't effectivly answer questions like the one at top of this thread. bobsmyuncle said "every product has its advantages and disadvantages. When you pick the one or two features most important to you, you get the concomitant attributes that come along with it." If a person doesn't realize that,they are already too far gone in the wrong direction for gainihg much insight on a subject.
Now that I got that out of my head,back to the discussion. Other than the poster with 40 years experience,has anyone found an application where Polyshades will perform better than stain+clearcoat? In my experience and taking bob's statment in consideration I suppose Polyshades out performs other methods if one is too lazy to wipe off hand prints before first application.
If you listened to me rant this far I owe you something you can use for better finishes on your projects. A clean area will help alot in attaining satisfactory painting results. Low VOC products have helped but we should still use every advantage if we plan being able to play with our grandkids. What! You don't have supplied air resprator and a paint booth???? Me neither. Use plastic sheet,tarp or other non-linting fabric to fashion a tent with 3 walls and head high top. Alternatly,2 walls in vee with top works well also. From cardboard and packing tape build a box with 2 openings that alow a PLEATED PAPER filter to be taped over one opening and plastic tent inclosing other. Construct a divider wall inside box with a small fan taped to a fitted opening. Set your project in tent with your back to fan. The goal is having a filtered air gentle breeze at you back to push vapor away from your breath and out open side preventing concentration of vapors while preventing airborne contaminates coming in open side of tent. Naturally,a woodworker can build a nicer set up but I want to keep the in reach of an appartment balconey workshop. Wear clean clothing that isn't shedding lint and dust. A pair of disposable paper coveralls will last a hobbiest for years. Wear a hat or scarf on hair. If disposable brushes lay the finish on to your satisfaction,just store them clean make certain to shake/blow them clean before use. If like me you want a professional brush,clean it well after every use. I wager if I slap your dry "clean" varnish brush across the bench edge bits of dried varnish will fill the air. Try it in good light to test your cleaning. Unless you maintain clean brushes,pour enough material from can to another cup and don't return unused material to can. That dried stuff that flew when brush was slaped earlier will be wash of in can each time brush is dipped. To see how well you did in keeping debris out of finish rub your palm across final coat when dry. The surface should feel slick and smooth like it has been polished. That saves time that would have been spent sanding final coat. To save more time to offset that spent building tent and cleaning brush,here's another time saving tip. Apply additional coats without sanding,just tack the surface off. I know some will not agree and that most instructions reccomend sanding,but after you master the above,try it without sanding. The product manufacture suggests sanding in attempt to let customer end up with smoother finish from sanding junk out as they go. I welcome debate as long as it is serious and is supported. I don't always consider links as supporting evidence.
That's "a snuff" for today.

has anyone found an application where Polyshades will perform better than stain+clearcoat?

Yes ... where time is at a premium and no one will be looking closely at it. Stage props, for example.

Or to get a cheap piece of furniture presentable for a few months while you are arranging its replacement.

My neighbor built a printer stand from pine scraps and coated it with two coats of brown walnut polyshades. It was an essentially free table (wood scraps and stain on hand). He is happy to get his printer off the floor and onto a stand that fits a small space next to his desk. It looks better and cost less than the fiberboard stuff in the discount stores. He was done building and staining his piece in one day.

Thanks for the tips on the brushes. I haven't needed to use any of my quality brushes, yet, but I have been going thru tons of rags! Good thing I have been filling my "rag bin". I have also used foam brushes and cheap bristle brushes from the dollar store. I keep them in separate plastic bags while painting/staining any given project. If they are is decent shape after I am done, I clean them and put them in the cheapo brush bin. If not, no great loss.

Your clean area is a good idea. In a previous life, I was a project manager for a drug company. They used plastic barriers to protect production areas from areas under construction.

My workspace is outside until I get my garage organized. I just moved here this summer. I am trying to get at least the stripping done on my furniture before the weather turns. I have acorns falling everywhere. I have also had to touch up finishes where gnats got stuck in drying paint/gel stain. I gave up doing finish coats outside after seeing the tracks of a gypsy moth caterpillar across my dresser top.My biggest source of indoor dust is my little pug's shedding. I dust and vacuum so much dog hair, I am surprised he isn't bald!

I am considering using Waterlox on my china cabinet. In short, once my cabinet is finally stained with the rich mahogany old masters oil based wiping stain, what are the steps you would recommend to finish it with Waterlox varnish?

Another note: Hogher quality stains contain more pigment!

You can see the bottom of the can thru varathane or minwax stains.

The Old Masters wiping stain is very dense. Not only can you not see the bottom of the can, you can't see the stirring stick once it is submerged in the stain!

I tried both, on my 12 yr old Oak kitchen cabinets. I wanted to go dark, but also wanted to avoid having to sand all down to bare wood, so in order to try to save time and money, I tried the MW Polyshade BOMBAY Mohagony Satin, on front and Verathane Poly/Ebony S.G. on backside. Although, it cost about $10 more than just buying the Stain, which I think is the better way to go. Although,

The Mwx looked better, but neither looked like the color samples ar HD. So I either didn't spread it on thick enough or had to give it a second coat! Thus, I agree with the previous guys post that this Poly+Stain product sucks and if you want it done right there's no shortcut, to Sand, Stain and varnish...

in the short of it, its best to get both and experiment to see what works best for you - the long version is -in all honesty - your question is one of opinion and taste - ask an artist how to choose their medium - they will tell you it depends on what they are trying to accomplish.

im new to varathane as well, but NOT new to the trade - i have only used minwax on wood, and rustoleum on metal - some wood too - never used minwax on metal at all - rustoleum is more diverse in that way. (varathane is a rustoleum product) Minwax seems to be strictly wood. I have found that minwax needs more coats, that is a plus and minus depending on circumstances. I have had awesome results with minwax.. sometimes the slower drying multiple coats can work very well for different projects. i feel it was a better product to work with so far... i need more time to find out though

there are different crafts that may require different applications to achieve the art or final result you are looking for. the craftsman has to know which works for him and which works for his current project. maybe minwax will work better on a certain project or has a color that you prefer vice versa..

I have been trying Varathane and i like a few things about it, but i fell its a lower quality - not so sure i like that rustoleum makes it because i have had 50/50 results using rustoleum on several different wood projects, some metal work some wood - i had excellent results with rustoleum with certain metal projects - others not at all.

A true craftsman - home DIY projects or an experienced artistic expert craftsman - has no set rules to follow with materials, its how you use them. excuse this example, but its like asking your friend how your wife will feel if you try something new in the bedroom.., his methods (and equipment) may be different than yours and therefore has different results.. and to put it bluntly its true. I suggest using both and find your way.

- experiment with both - make test samples and see which is best for you . . I think that a slower stain with several coats will give you a more controlled experience and lustrous look - like it has layers and gives a transparent depth to it. I have had excellent wood projects with minwax but it does take longer. . if minwax increased it drying time - id stick with them.

the varathane - being that it dies dry faster and coats better (note they have 2 products of all the same colors - yellow can and white can - one is thinner the other is thicker - the white one has more pigment the yellow can has less.) but i experienced an uneven drying with varathane and even though it works good for one coat, patience is a virtue and i like to see even coats.

The minwax may need several coats, and a lot longer drying time but the end result is a smoother more even tone were i find that varathane will coat heavier but you have to be attentive to all areas or one spot may have darker streeks. I guess thats why they made 2 versions - in the end - im stuck with varathane because the HD has changed contracts - minwax is now with lowes, and lowes is 30 minutes further away making an hour round trip where HD is walking distance.

- i also feel that the varathane stain seems to smell and feel cheaper quality - i dont know if the multiple coats produces different looks on different finished wood - so again, its really best to have both and see which works for you. on the positive note, im changing the cabinets to a darker color. i did not have to sand all the way to the wood - but i dont know the durability with varathane yet. minwax i usually have to take it down to the wood. minwax was extremely durable - to this day it doesnt rub or scratch off. Im worried the varathane will peel or be able to get your finger nail and dig into it and scrape it off - i have had that experience with other rustoleum products making them seem cheap to me. I hope the time i took to share my opinions were helpful

cheers

update on my experience, seems that after a light sanding - (not to the wood) the varathane does what I experienced with other rustoleum products, the coat is not that strong or deep penetrating... maybe i have to sand all the way, but after 5 hours of drying - i was able to rub the stain off... its dry to handle but comes off too easily. straight stain. and can have clumping like appearance. leaning towards minwax

The unfortunate reality is that you can only stain bare wood. Varthane's stain/poly is pretty the same as Minwax's Polyshades and only suitable for finishing dog houses.

You have two choices - strip the doors or paint.

I know this is an old thread and there is a lot of great information and points here, but my opinion (coming from an experienced amateur) the Varathane seems to be slightly thicker than Minwax. It also coated much more evenly and did not soak in so quickly like a sponge (good or bad depending on what you are looking for). It coated evenly and the colors appear deeper to me than Minwax products. I thorough wipe after a few min. is necessary for proper drying. Overall I would highly recommend Varathane. Again it’s only an opinion, but I have used Minwax religiously for many years. I was very impressed.

I have thoroughly searched the Internet for various forums re: Minwax vs Varathane, as I currently have an issue.

5 years ago, we had some of our red oak floors refinished in Minwax Special Walnut. I loved the color. Recently, we had a leak problem, and had two rooms torn out, and being rebuilt. We decided to take advantage of this bad situation and out up some wood beams on the (now) vaulted ceilings. We decided to have it match the (to be) special walnut floors and the rest of the house. We texted Minwax special walnut, in 1 and 2 coats, on the cedar wood to make sure it was the color we liked. It did look similar to our red oak floors.
When the contractor purchased the stain, he ended up buying Varathane Special walnut, and said it would come out to be the same color. It is clearly not! He prefers Varathane (I can see why, is thicker, goes on easily, maybe even single coat), but now I’m faced with a design dilemma...
Find a Varathane color that matches the Minwax Special walnut, or stick with the Minwax Special walnut (even though it may not be as good a product)?

This was a battle of enormous proportions. And declaring a winner when comparing Varathane vs Minwax is a tough order.

If you’ve been following the scorecard here, then you saw that there was never a distant winner, so it’s a tie!

There's no situation in which you must use one brand over another. Both of them will provide wonderful results.