Unfortunately homeowners don't have much choice since all the home stores carry blue plastic. I am stuck on a stubborn assumption that blue is a clue that DIY work was done. I just have never found a professional installation that used them. 75% of time when I open up a blue box, I find the grounds twisted with no wire nut, and the 2 inch long blacks and whites held together with yellow wire nuts with gobs of black tape.

"''Then I was pondering the idea of adding another exterior receptacle below the panel. Maybe set it up with 8ga wire and a 50 amp breaker, so it could be used for welding out on the driveway''

Smithy wrote: "you need 6 awg for 50a."

As usual, Smithy, you are 100% wrong. In the first place, #8 THHN, with all related parts and terminations rated in the 75 degree column, is 50-amp capable.

But that's almost beside the point. Welders fall under a specific NEC article that links wire size to duty cycle of the welder. Given the duty-cycle consideration, believe it or not, #10AWG would actually be sufficient for most stick welders.

You have NOOOOO idea what you are talking about.

Please, please, stop giving incompetant advice. Now!

I have 4x4 boxes with mc in my shed.

Yes, core bit is on order. But, not the heavier duty type that can cut through rebar too. So no, not drilling the slab. Trip hazard or not, conduit is wrapping around the slab. Certainly won't be the first time electrical has had to be routed around things.

The entire house was wired with those "unprofessional" blue boxes. So I guess I need to redo the whole house to make it look good.

Standard pipe thread is on the RMC then?

"Standard pipe thread is on the RMC then? "

IPT, Iron Pipe Thread. The same as water and other threaded pipe.

My un-official, good-for-nothing opinion is that you should change out the blue boxes in the shed for metal. There might not be a requirement for it but I think it would be better since they are exposed. Unless you intend to drywall the shed.

I suppose the same argument could be made that you should use armored/metallic cable rather than Romex, but I think it's too late for that.

As to the two 90* outdoor bends, one will be pretty much buried. The one next to the shed I would make metal. I could just see someone hitting that with a weedeater or lawnmower, or driving over it.

Oh, and I commend you for providing all the pictures. keep it up.

Slide the shed over to the edge of the slab.
(you can always find 'stuff' to pile on the
other side, like firewood).

If I manage to break a fiberglass box while using the shed, I will replace them with metal. Otherwise, they stay.

Good idea about moving the shed. But I like where it is at with the front 3 feet from the driveway edge.

Got the panel wired for the most part. The two 30amp doubles were included with the panel. I just stuck them in for now.

There is a 50amp double on bottom. Going to wire that up for a 240 recept below the panel. I currently have my table saw set up for 240, so I could roll it out on the driveway and plug it in there if I want. And the recept can handle a welder too if need be. Though with so many 240 receptacle options, it is unlikely that my current 240 plug on the saw would match any welders plugs.

And after debating and talking to the licensed electrician at Depot, I opted for RMC from the subpanel to below grade, where it will connect to PVC.

Basically a pain in the ass working with RMC because unless you own a pipe threader, you have to take it somewhere. Which wound up like this.

1. Measure and cut the RMC, clean up burrs.
2. Call Depot to find out if anyone is working that knows how to thread pipe. Answer was yes.
3. Arrive at Depot to find nobody in plumbing. Eventually pipe threading guy shows up.
4. Has trouble with both the security code on the machine keypad and the forward/reverse switch. Eventually figuring it out.
5. I wander off while he gets that done. Coming back 10 minutes later. Trouble. Got 4 threaded sections cut, but they are not deep enough. He is clueless as to why.
6. He wanders the store in search of someone who knows more than him.
7. I roll my eyes and go to the electrical aisle to get something. Along comes Mr Electrician. We chat a bit. I tell him about the RMC threading issue. We go over to the machine. He gets it going and gets the threads corrected, though he says it is not cutting like it should be. In any case, checked the threads with a coupling, all workable.
8. Original guy finally comes back and wants to know how he did it.
9. I ponder the possibility that this guy might be cutting threads for someones gas pipe one day. Hmmmm

So got it done. It was a hassle. And then I realized today, that upon test fitting, I made the one pipe too long. Grrrrr.

I test messaged one neighbor to see if he had a 1-1/4 pipe threader. No dice.

So wanting to avoid the whole Depot thing again, I take the pipe over two houses to a neighbor who is a plumber. He is not home, wife is there. Wife calls him. He is in town at a job. She says she is going to town anyway, so she can take the pipe, have him thread it and drop it off when she comes back. Ok, fine. I worked on wiring the panel in the meantime. Soon the pipe was back, threaded perfectly.

So my advice to any homeowners treading in the RMC waters, is to have on hand, either rented, or purchased for $60 or so, a manual ratcheting pipe threader and cutting oil. It will save you much aggravation.

Supposed to get storms tomorrow and Friday. Trench is still open. I can see a nice little lake forming in the clay there.

The one thing I had not thought about in regards to using RMC there, was the possibility of little kids grabbing a hold of that pipe in the dog days of summer here that easily hit 100 at times. That is going to sting.

"There is a 50amp double on bottom. Going to wire that up for a 240 recept below the panel. I currently have my table saw set up for 240, so I could roll it out on the driveway and plug it in there if I want. And the recept can handle a welder too if need be. Though with so many 240 receptacle options, it is unlikely that my current 240 plug on the saw would match any welders plugs."

I'm not sold on your idea of installing one 240V receptacle to serve both your table saw and your welder. Not all 240V circuits are the same and that's precisely why the plugs are different.

Just shooting from the hip, unless your table saw has, like, a 10 HP motor (all but impossible if it has the option of jumpering between 120V and 240V), your table saw probably requires 15- or 20-amp overcurrent protection @ 240V. The welder, on the other hand, can be "underwired" slightly because of the duty-cycle consideration (see above).

I really wouldn't recommend trying to kill two birds with one stone breaker -- at least not those particular birds.

Just my 2 cents.

"Basically a pain in the ass working with RMC because unless you own a pipe threader, you have to take it somewhere. Which wound up like this..."

Wow, sorry 'bout that, mon. Who knew that Home Despot sometimes employs idiots? :-)

One thing strikes me.

Somewhere in my educational reading in the past I learned to pull only about 1/2" of the outer sheating of romex into a box. Where did I read that? If it was just a particular author's preference, then your pulling in almost a foot is okay, but if it was specific instructions, then you oughtta fix that. Looks neater. :)

Tom, you are right on the 50amp breaker. Table saw can probably run on a 20. I will have to look at the info on that again what Delta says for the saw. Scratch that sharing idea. I was thinking I had a HUGE table saw. But alas, tis not the case.

I like the yellow insulating jacket in the panel. It brightens things up.

Unless you are lucky enough to get a retired plumber at the hardware store near you, it's a roll of the dice whether you get something threaded correctly. Thankfully this was not gas line. If it were, I would have just tossed it and started over.

So I have the 50amp breaker and a hole in front of the shed for a weatherproof box soon to be installed. I don't have a welder. I do have a table saw. I guess I will just set it up for the 15 or 20 breaker and a receptacle for my saw. It is easy enough to change it over to something else should the need arise.

The rain should make ground rod installation easier.

Here is an interesting link on how a ham radio guy sinks them.

http://www.rogerhalstead.com/ham_files/ground.htm

What do you pros here make of the water jet method? I guess eventually the earth will close up onto the ground rod, but it seems to me that it would make for a pretty miserable ground when first installed. The ground rod just drops into the drilled hole - it's not really in solid contact with the earth.

I'm not a pro so fortunately I don't have to sink a ground rod once a week or so. But when I do have to, I use a fence post driver. It's easier than a sledge, and safer for the guy who has to hold the rod for you while you swing at it from a stepladder.

lol.

I had the same thought about the water jet thing. Just the same, I'm thinking about modifying it a little and using it.

I'm thinking, if we made the hole SMALLER, there'd still be plenty of earth for the rod to grab, but the pre-existing hole would certainly make it easier. ie, it wouldn't just "drop in" but it would be looser than untouched ground.

Core bit arrived. Can finally get that hole drilled in the brick.

Speaking of grounding. Assuming I am able to get the 8ft rods sunk down below grade. How do I handle the ground wire routing? Just route it up next to the rigid conduit and then inside to the subpanel??

I have 25ft of #4 copper to work with. Shed is 14ft wide.

Got the hole drilled in the brick. Ear protection and a dust mask is a good idea. I drilled from inside to out, because I wanted the hole I already cut in the drywall to match up.

I got the rest of the emt run down the wall to the 1" LB. Which then has a 1" pvc male adapter. Then I got some 1" gray pvc for the short section inside the wall. And that connects up to a 1-1/4" plastic LB on the other side via another plastic adaper.

Filled the wall void with spray foam.

Pulled the 4 wires all together today down to the metal LB inside the garage. Did not need the square box on ceiling. No biggie.

Quickly realized I was short on wire. Grrrrr. Can I splice the wires in the plastic LB outside the garage? How do I go about splicing 6ga stranded wire? Already spent $120 so far on the wire.

How about using the ceiling box as a splice point. Not sure how much wire it would waste but that would possibly have the volume needed to splice the wires. Or perhaps pull that wire you have now to the shed and add pull a new section of wire from the ceiling box back to the main panel (which ever wastes the least amount of wire. Also hate to say it but the black or red wire is not code legal for your neutral. The code allows re-coloring the wire with tape but only for wires larger than number 6. That said, there are still a lot of pros out there re-taping even #8 wire. Don't know if your having this work inspected but there is a chance the inspector could catch it. The 2 hots can be black, buying red wire isn't required but helps keep track.

No inspection, out in the sticks.

That always seems to be an issue when I go for wire. They never have all the colors. So I got two blacks in the run figuring I would tape the one black with white tape and use it as the neutral.

Got the remaining wire last night. This time Lowes had the white 6ga wire in stock but not the #10 green. So I went to Depot and got the #10 green.

Based on the wire I was able to get, it will pan out at the sub panel with.
1 black hot 6ga
1 black with red tape, hot 6ga
1 white, neutral, 6g
1 green ground 10 ga

And wherever I splice it, either the plastic LB or the ceiling box. So from the main panel to the splice:

1 black hot 6ga
1 red hot 6ga
1 black with white tape neutral 6ga
1 green ground 10ga

The ceiling box is a big 4 11/16, 42 cu inch.

So how do I go about splicing the 6ga wire? Do they even make wire nuts that big? Or do I have to use some special tool and copper crimp collars?

There are devices for splicing wires that large. The largest 'wire nut' I've personally used went up to #8 and I wouldn't want to see a larger one.

The easiest to find is probably going to be "split bolt" connectors...

There are butt connectors that crimp, but there are also barrel connectors with setscrews.

One of the code gurus will have to comment on this, but I would imagine you could put them through "heat shrink tubing" and solder them.

I found some big wire nuts from GB at Ace. I will see how well they hold onto two 6ga wires.

Finished the PVC today. Lot of test fitting and taking apart and I still had to redo a few cuts. Got it all set from the house to the shed now. I don't want to bury it yet until I know for sure that I can get the wire all through there. I don't see any issues, but you never know.

Got the second set of wires pulled from the outside plastic LB to the sub panel. Lubed it with some diluted dishwashing soap. First try without soap wound up breaking the parachute cord. So I reset and hooked it up with 3 pull cords and lube. Got it through to the metal LB at the slab. Then routed it up to the panel.

Pondering the exterior receptacle by the double doors on the shed just below the sub panel. Going to set it for 240v table saw for now. But the male plug on the saw is the type with two horizontal hot blades and then the ground.

How do I get a GFCI on a 240v line cost effectively? I imagine a double pole 20a gfci is pricey. I know the hardware stores do not carry them.

GFCI protection is not technically required since it is a 240 volt receptacle. But if you would like it for your own piece of mind, a GFCI breaker is what you need. Since you have a Square D homeline panel (not QO) which are basically the cheapest circuit breakers out there, a double pole 20 shouldn't be too bad. Searching on google I found this one for a hundred bux.

http://www.drillspot.com/products/159890/Square_D_HOM220GFI_Circuit_Breaker?s=5

A qo would likely cost near $200.

"And wherever I splice it, either the plastic LB or the ceiling box. So from the main panel to the splice:

1 black hot 6ga
1 red hot 6ga
1 black with white tape neutral 6ga
1 green ground 10ga

The ceiling box is a big 4 11/16, 42 cu inch.

So how do I go about splicing the 6ga wire? Do they even make wire nuts that big? Or do I have to use some special tool and copper crimp collars?"

First let's address box fill requirements.

When you splice a conductor in a box, it counts as two (one in, one out). So, from the standpoint of box fill, you have 6 x #6awg. Each #6 requires 5 cubic inches.

Equipment grounds (whether spliced, pigtailed or whatever) collectively count as only one conductor. (I know, I know, it seems counterintuitive but box fill has as much to do with heat management as it does with whether or not you can actually squeeze everything in. :-) ) A #10AWG needs 2.5 cubic inches.

By my calculation, the total size required is 32.5 ci (6 x 5 + 1 x 2.5)

Thus, a 4 11/16 x 2" square box (42 ci) appears to meet box fill minimum.

As for making splices in a conduit body (e.g., an LB), the issue is a little trickier. It wasn't many code revisions ago that splices in LBs were disallowed altogether but they are now allowed provided that the manufacturer specifically labels the LB with the c.i. available for connections. Some do, some don't.

So does this mean that in the case of two otherwise identical LBs -- one of which has volume stamped on it and the second which does not -- that one is OK for splices and the other is a potential code violation? Yep, sure does. Go figure.

I'm with Spencer on this one: I'd probably opt for making the splice in the junction box rather than the LB. (Also, that oughta require less additional wire.)

Now for how to make the splice. As a matter of personal preference, I'm with pharkus on this. I'd probably use split bolt connectors for the current carrying conductors and a red wire nut for the EG.

[Not saying that the big (gray?) wire nuts won't work. They will. I'm just personally more confident that split-bolt splices are secure. Of course, I'm an old fart. :-) ]

However, if you aren't familiar with how to properly tape-up split bolt splices, it might be a better choice for a DIYer to opt for wire nuts.

[If you do decide to use split-bolt connectors and aren't familiar with how to tape them up, come back for further discussion. Taping is a very important part of making split-bolt splices and the proper procedure is more involved than wrapping a couple of turns of black tape over the splice and screwing on the box cover.)

****

BTW, if this were my project, I wouldn't spring for a GFCI breaker for the table saw. But, once again, that's just a personal preference. The larger the motor the less I like the idea of using GFCIs and they ain't that easy on the wallet either.

Yes, I think I will skip the GFCI on the 240 recept for the saw.

As far as the feeder splice goes, not sure if I have enough to route that exterior wire up to the ceiling box. Will check that tomorrow.

If not, two conduit bodies on either side of the garage wall will have to be it. The outside pvc one is 32 cu in.

The inside 1" metal LB is, strangely, not marked with a cubic inch, but instead says "maximum 3 #4ga."

If I want to nit pick it, I suppose I could splice the green ground in the metal LB, and the 3 #6ga in the gray pvc LB outside.

Had to cut a 4.25" RMC section for the final nipple at the sub panel. But I needed it threaded on one end. Oh joy.

I had returns to make to both Depot and Lowes. First stop Lowes. Plumbing stocker pulls the machine out and then realizes they do not have a die large enough in it to cut the 1 1/4, or he doesn't know how to adjust it so it will.
No problem...head to Depot.

Find plumbing guy at Depot. Show him the short pipe I need threaded. He says, no, can't do one that short. Why not I say. He says it needs to be a long pipe because the machine grips it in the front and back. I say, welllll, I don't think that is correct, because the electrician at the other Depot managed to do a similar short pipe for me by just clamping it with the front jaws. So he give it a whirl, and low and behold, success. Now he knows it can indeed be done.

Raining and cold today, so didn't get much done other than returns and the pipe threading.

Still have to tackle the ground rods. I may try to sink one to the right of the LB at the slab, and the other one 8 ft to the right of that. I have 25ft of 4g bare copper to work with. Problem is that there is a fair amount of random sandstone all over here. I would guess my chances are very slim to be able to go straight down 8 feet without hitting some.

And no, I have not used split bolt connectors before. I know what they are and have seen them at the store. I do not know how to tape them up properly.

I do have the big 6ga wire nuts. Ace had them for sale individually in some bins. So I will give those a try and see how I feel about getting a good connection with them.

Found a 3M video on taping up split bolts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tsx6im7qng

Much easier if you can find these.

Here is a link that might be useful: INSUL-TAP

That video clip looks like a great way to sell LOTS of 3M tape. Four layers of rubber tape followed by 4 layers of vinyl? That would be a fairly massive lump.

Lots of any brand of tape is apparently needed to tape up those split bolt connections.

Those insulated tap things are nice, but the wire nuts worked fine it seems for the 6ga. I tested them on some scrap first to be sure.

Getting all those 6ga wires, with a bit of slack, into the ceiling box was a challenge.

The poor mans wire tester in the photo below was my way of figuring out which black wire was which going to the shed.
I already had a red wire run from the main panel. So I was going to tape one of the blacks heading to the shed with red to be consistent. But, I needed to know which was which.

So, with the 9v battery clipped to the wires, I used my digital voltmeter over at the sub panel. With red +, and black - on the battery. When the voltmeter is on DC volts and the correct polarity is sensed between the black wires, it shows a positive voltage. When you reverse the probes, it will show a negative voltage. Thus distinguishing the positive from the negative, and which wire is which.

I had to remove the sub panel to get the short pipe nipple on properly. With that done, the wiring got completed there.

Started burying the pipe in the trench. Will finish that tomorrow.

Got the 240v receptacle hooked up.

Silicone around all exterior boxes.

Tomorrow I will make the final connections at the main panel with a 60a double pole feeder breaker.

Oh, and the copper grounding rods need to be sunk still. That may wind up eating the day tomorrow. We shall see.

Got the ditch filled in today. Really windy, cold and then started raining. Ground rods will be tomorrow.

Finished the connections at the main panel.

One curious thing. The yellow romex cable with the black tape striped all down it. I turned off all the breakers in that panel, and the main. Checked the romex with my inductive beeper, nothing. So I figured when I was done, I would flip the main back on, and then the breakers one at a time and check that romex to see which circuit was powering it. Went through all of them, no power on that romex now. Hmmmm. Had power previously when I originally took the panel cover off weeks ago.

Moving on to the other panel to the left. So I turned all the breakers off and the main on that panel. Went about fitting the panel cover back on, and it just did not fit right. Hmmm. So I quickly realized that the two 60a doubles for the electric heat were not Square D, but Cutler Hammer. And they are not designed on top, to line up properly with Square D covers. Greeeeat. I had a spare 60 Square D, so I popped that in for the one. The Cutler breaker I removed was broken a bit, as if someone at some point tried to pry it out.

Anyway, got the left panel back on. Turned the main on, flipped the breakers on one at a time. Checking the yellow romex again each time. Nothing. Not a beep. I know my tester works. The main lines at the top cause it to beep.

So I don't know why when I checked that romex multiple times before, it showed power. And clearly, someone marked it to indicate it was hot and not connected to anything in the panel.

But now, it is not showing power. Nobody else has been working at the house besides me. It's a mystery for another day.

That stray cable really bothers me. If it were my house, I'd be turning the place upside down to figure out where it goes and what it's supposed to be doing.

I don't fully trust volt ticks. I'd use a Wiggy or at least a neon tester on it.

I'd definitely replace those CH breakers with the proper type. There is no excuse for that kind of hack work.

Yes, I will have to check that mystery cable further.

It comes down into the panel through one of the main large conduit feeds. Those are already jam packed with wires. So it seems unlikely it could have been fished through after the initial panel install.

And the black taping of the cable in a stripe fashion all the way down is curious. Because it's not tape that was rolled around and down the cable. Little bits of tape were indidually cut and put on there. Clearly not something an electrician would do.

It apparently was taped like that to indicate to others that is was a hot cable coming into the box. So why am I not getting a power indication on it now, when I was before.

I definitely need to find out where that goes. Unfortunately, the majority of the cable used in the attic are yellow jacketed.

Today was ground rod day. And so is tomorrow.

Got the 4ga copper wire connected in the sub panel and snaked through the small knockout in the bottom, the out and down next to the RMC. Then stretched it out to the right in front of the slab.

Got two 8ft, 5/8 rods. Ground was plenty wet from recent rains. But it is clay, so it doesn't percolate very far down.

Managed to get just 2 feet pounded in using sledge and water method.

Next, I had a 1/2" copper pipe about 50" long I found a large hex bolt that would fit inside it. I drilled through the pipe and bolt. Inserted a cotter pin. Then used my dremel with an abrasive wheel to cut teeth into the other end of the pipe. Poor mans core drill basically.

I have a socket adapter that fits my 3/8 electric variable speed drill. So popped a craftsman socket on there and went back to work. Water, drill on hex bolt, go down a bit, remove pipe, whack end of pipe with small 1x2 to get the core out...repeat. Got about another 3 feet using that method. The copper teeth last maybe 5 shots, then need to be recut with dremel. Some of the clay is very dense sticky and much harder to extract from the pipe.

May stop at the rental place in town here and see what they have in demolition hammers and try brute force.

I don't have the book handy here to check to be sure that this is still OK - will do so later if I can. However, IIRC, the code allows you to dig trenches and lay the ground rods horizontally. I think you have to go either 30" or 36" down, and the connectors on the rods have to be listed for direct burial.

Don't forget that you're not allowed to have any splices in the ground wire. Thread it through the first rod's connector uncut, and take it right on to the next one's.

The exterior lights are installed and functioning fine. Everything else is working properly.

Got delayed on the ground rods. Will be renting a chipping hammer with rod driver attachment tomorrow. I have been soaking the holes with water regularly. Hopefully they will both go in all the way.

Total expenses so far to do this project = about $1200
Used up about 8 gallons of fuel with various trips to
the hardware stores.

"Total expenses so far to do this project = about $1200
Used up about 8 gallons of fuel with various trips to
the hardware stores."

When you do the final cost/benefit analysis, don't forget to load up the benefits column with a lot of valuable learning as well as a few tools you now own that you may use again.

It's a matter of philosophy, I suppose, but given the choice of doing something myself for the first time and hiring it out at the same cost, I'll nearly always opt for doing it myself. What I've learned over a lifetime of getting my fingernails dirty is the real difference. And, next time, you'll be able to tackle a wiring project much more efficiently, with a lot fewer trips to the hardware stores.

[Having said that, I gotta admit that although I can usually complete an electrical project with only a couple of trips to the store, I doubt I've ever completed a significant plumbing project with fewer than about a half-dozen trips. :-) Because you had elements of "plumbing" to deal with, your daily commuting runs can be excused in part.]

Because I think this thread would make for an excellent case study for a DIYer considering a project to wire an outbuilding (with great pics to boot), I'd throw in this additional thought, though it won't benefit the OP at this point in the game:

Yes, ground rods can be a b1tch to drive and after all that blood and sweat, they provide for a grounding system that is inferior to electrodes embedded in a building's concrete foundation. Had you laid out most of that #4 copper when the concrete was being poured and bonded it to the rebar, you'd have a better ground (known as a "Ufer") at a lower cost with a fraction of the work.

But hindsight is always 20/20, right?

"Yes, ground rods can be a b1tch to drive and after all that blood and sweat, they provide for a grounding system that is inferior to electrodes embedded in a building's concrete foundation."

The UFER may not be as good as the rods depending on local soil conditions, chiefly how wet the earth is at the bottom of the foundation.

In desert areas you can only sometimes only get a reliable connection by dripping water on ground rods driven very deeply.

Local addition to the code can require very deep driven grounds and the watering system.

It is a real PITA to get any kind of antenna to have a decent ground plane also.

We ended up putting radial leads of solid #10 wire from the base of the antenna mast for 5 wavelengths out at the lowest frequency (high HF) then having a sprinkler system installed just above them to water the sand.

"The UFER may not be as good as..."

FWIW, it's a Ufer (or if you contend that the word has gained acceptance as a generic, perhaps a ufer). But because it is named for one Herbert G. Ufer, it is not an acronym (i.e., "UFER").

Curiously, Mr. Ufer developed the technique in the Arizona deserts for the Army precisely to avoid having to sink ground rods hundreds of feet over bomb storage vaults.

err...under bomb storage vaults? :-)

Rented a Bosch chipping hammer with a ground rod driver attachment at a local place. Had 3 hours before the rate bumped up to the next level.

Worked on rod #2 first. It was well soaked over the past week. But again, heavy clay here, doesn't percolate down far. And lots of sandstone boulders, some the size of cars. So I knew it was a roll of the dice.

Managed to get rod #2 down to within 18" of grade. That was all she wrote.

Rod #1 had to be repositioned slightly to the left. I got it down about 2 feet in the original spot, but it would not go further. So I used an auto floor jack under the clamp and pried it out of the ground. Moved it and tried again. Got it down to within 8" of grade before stalling out.

I tried bending over rod #2 into the trench, but spring back is not letting me get it down flat.

So do I cut them off, or is there a trick to bending them all the way down?

Yes, learned a lot doing yet another project myself. The info here from you guys helped.

If I were to do it again, I would hire someone to do that trench or rent a small trencher if they had one that I could use in the space I was working with.

Or, I would have just used rigid or intermediate conduit and not had to dig as far down. BUT, I would have rented or purchased a ratcheting manual pipe threader if I went that route. Trying to get the hardware store guys to do pipe threading was just ridiculous.
{{gwi:2060882}}

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I just read somewhere else that only the primary grounding rod at the electric meter needs to be driven to the 8ft depth. Secondary rods at sub panels have no specific depth requirement. Is this in fact the case?

At this point, cutting them off below grade seems to be the only realistic solution.

The ground will be freezing up shortly here.

Where did you read that??? It is totally wrong.

I saw it posted on another online electrical forum which I can't locate now. I was just browsing around online at lunch when I saw it.

I did see a mention on the water pipe drilling method and that it leaves the hole too large and not in good contact with earth. Someone responded that for really deep ground rods, they always drill a larger hole, drop the rods in, and then fill the space with a clay slurry.

As I suggested before, you can lay the rods horizontally in a ditch. I checked and they're supposed to be buried 30" down. The clamps have to be listed for direct burial.

You started this job on October 31??? Wonder how long it would have taken without all the commentary and photos??

Looks like a good job though.

Probably longer, as he asked for input several times and, had he not received it, someone at a hardware store would probably have given him bad advice, or simply not known.

Every once in a while I get annoyed with this thread too, but, honestly, it's a good idea, and probably one of the best way for a DIY job to get done correctly.

Yes, it took a while, in between everything else I was doing around here. But I got it done and it works, and I learned a lot.

Posting clear photos is more helpful sometimes than trying to explain the issue.

Thanks for the help guys.

End of job.

Great thread ohmmm.

Just a quick note on your mystery cable if you haven't found what it might be yet. It might have been for temoporary power during the construction of your house for work lights and receptacles. I often find in my parts contractors leaving the cabling behind after construction in this fashion. Hope this helps.

Jon