"The fact that the first one burned up is the sign of incompetent amateurs."

This sounds more like a efective DW.

The somehting was (is) shorted allowing a faul curent to flow on the conductive metal of the hose.

It was likely not large enough to trip the breaker and resulted in the rubber of the hose igniting from the heat.

There is probably still something wrong with the wiring in the DW.

It might be time to demand the seller replace the DW.

The seller DID replace the DW. They took that one away, and a different set of installers brought a second, new-from-the-box dishwasher.

(Sorry--I tried to make that clear with "The replacement was delivered today")

The lamps are on the same circuit as the dishwasher--there's no confusion or inaccuracy there.
The evidence: When Breaker#8 was off, the lights wouldn't work, and the DW was worked on safely. When Breaker#8 was on, the lights WOULD work (but the freshly installed 2nd dishwasher wouldn't). The piece of paper our contractor left us is labeled "Breaker#8: left 2 undercabinet lights, dishwasher." We've turned that breaker off before to deal with a change in the wiring to the undercabinet lights.

"If a short caused wire damage. then you always had a major fire threat. Circuit breakers mean any wire anywhere in the house can be shorted. Create large sparks. And no wire damage will result. If that short caused wire damage, then a serious human safety defect has been identified. For example, a loose connection inside some junction box has now failed."

This is interesting. We had the kitchen rewired by our contractor, who subcontracted to a licensed electrician. We had no awareness of problems.
Is it likely there's a junction box where the wire turns off for the dishwasher? I'd assumed that two wires (one for the lights, and one for the dishwasher) went straight to the breaker box and to the same breaker.
We'll see what happens, I guess, when we talk to Sears.

If this is what's likely, then my best move may be to have an electrician come and look at the circuit, and if he finds an incipient problem, then I'll fix it. But if he finds that the circuit's install was fine, then I'll argue w/ Sears about payment.

You are assuming that the latest installers correctly connected the electrical conductors to the dishwasher. That may be an unwarranted assumption.

Is it likely there's a junction box where the wire turns off for the dishwasher? I'd assumed that two wires (one for the lights, and one for the dishwasher) went straight to the breaker box and to the same breaker.

There is a junction box. You may only put one wire on a breaker so any circuit that has more than one item on it has a junction box. All receptacle boxes can be junction boxes where the wire continues to the next receptacle.

That's very helpful. So it's possible that's where the problem lies? That the jolt from the dishwasher short may have messed up that connection? Or revealed a fault it in that already existed?

If that's the case, then the electrical may be on me.

and Bus_Driver, you're right--it's possible the installer goofed and that there's nothing wrong with the line at all.

But he did also test the line itself afterward.

Anyway, I feel a little less stupid going into this. Off to call Sears and see what they can do.

It's just sort of frustrating. Our dishwasher worked just fine for five or six years. We go to replace it, we personally touch nothing, and everything is a big old mess.

> Is it likely there's a junction box where the wire turns off for the
> dishwasher? I'd assumed that two wires (one for the lights, and
> one for the dishwasher) went straight to the breaker box and to
> the same breaker.

If any two wires connect, then that connection always must be inside a junction box. That box must be accessible from the room. Every box has a cover plate that includes a switch, plug, or is just a blank plate. Those are the only locations that wires can join together. Any layman or kid can temporarily remove that plate to inspect those connections - without fear or risk.

Of course, every junction box should have a cover plate installed. Wires must not be exposed.

Every wire connection must be inside a junction box that is accessed by only removing screws and its cover plate. Wires for both lights and the dishwasher must join in some nearby box. Learn some of this when the electrician arrives. Simple concepts that any homeowner should know for minimal safety.

"You may only put one wire on a breaker so any circuit that has more than one item on it has a junction box."

Some breakers are listed for double tapping.

"That box must be accessible from the room."

There is no "accessible from the room" requirement in the NEC.

The requirement is that the box be accessible.

Location is NOT specified.

It could be in ANY room or other space in the house as long as you can gain access.

I do know that joined wires have to be in an accessible junction box. (I mentioned it, actually)

I just hadn't realized that you couldn't run two loops off a single circuit breaker. Though it makes sense, actually, now that I think about it.

There's really only one place they can join--in the box at the beginning of the Plugmold strip (which is what the fluorescent lights are plugged into--them and the stand mixer).

Could a jolt of electricity from the dishwasher have caused some damage to that connection?

Or, could a tug on the wiring have caused a loose wire nut to fall off? We did have a separate licensed electrician come and finish off that connection with the proper connectors, etc.

I'm wondering if there's any sense if DH or I opening up the Plugmold box and checking to make sure everything is still attached. Would it be safe or sensible for us to re-join them?

The installer is sending the first guy back out tomorrow to look at stuff, and I thought if there was anything we could do to increase the chances of having a working circuit, it would be a good idea to.

If there's nothing simple, then I'll call the electrician--I just don't want to do it until I can say I gave them every chance.

talley sue when you call Sears you should ask (tell) them to send a technician rather than an installer. The technician will be able to tell you what is going on and end this situation. You do have a warranty and so far Sears has done a poor job on their part.

"Could a jolt of electricity from the dishwasher have caused some damage to that connection?

Or, could a tug on the wiring have caused a loose wire nut to fall off?"

Only if it was not installed correctly in the first place.

I would start checking every junction box on the circuit.

It sounds like a poor installation may be the problem.

be aware that DW installers from Sears are not usually licensed electricians.

There should be a disconnect within sight of the appliance to prevent against someone energizing the circuit while the appliance is being serviced. It could be as simple as a switch (not the breaker) being off.

I've never seen a disconnect/switch other than the breaker.
But I'll look around and see what I can find. Would it be a regular light switch?

There's only one junction box on the circuit, to my knowledge. Because there are only those two items on it. But that's a decent start.

Thanks for your help, everyone! Since DH will be the one home when they come, I'll have him read this.

(I do know the Sears guys aren't electricians)

"It could be as simple as a switch (not the breaker) being off."

Or a plug for the DW, or a panel that can accept lockouts.

Yep, but if the OP has flipped the breaker multiple times and the lights work, it isn't a lockout. It could be a plug, but if the wire is coming out of the wall... I sure hope it isn't.

Also, it could be that some prior owner just didn't follow code and their is no disconnect. In that case, something between the junction box for the lights and the dishwasher is fried.

"but if the wire is coming out of the wall... I sure hope it isn't. "

This has been the long practice in many areas.

The DW is simply hard wired using the JB built into the DW.

"This has been the long practice in many areas. "

Nowhere is it common practice to have a plug in cord going through a wall and out to a dishwasher.

It is a given that for this circuit to again operate properly, someone knowledgeable enough to diagnose and repair the problem must personally visit that premises. Do that.

"Nowhere is it common practice to have a plug in cord going through a wall and out to a dishwasher. "

The receptacle is normally under the sink, and the cord goes through the side of the cabinet, along with the water line.

In my house, built in the 70s, a length of Romex comes out of the wall and connects to the DW.

"The receptacle is normally under the sink, and the cord goes through the side of the cabinet, along with the water line. "

A cabinet is not the wall.

Well, the technicians came back. And they diagnosed the problem and successfully installed the dishwasher.

Here is what they told my DH (I'm at work--and really wishing I'd been home to look at this stuff with my own eyes):

The old unit did not need to be grounded via the electrical circuit, they said--and so the ground cable inside the junction box had not been attached to the junction box (this was apparently "proper installation" for 2005, when the old dishwasher was installed--seems amazing to me, but the ground was the water pipe--per the technicians. This sounds outrageous to me that our contractor and his licensed electrician didn't ground that circuit simply as a matter of course, but DH indicated the installers said it was "the way the technology was back then.")

So when they hooked up the new dishwasher the first time, they didn't realize that this was the case; they assumed that the line itself was grounded. And the electricity sought a ground on the water pipe, via the mesh water hose.

Then, the connectors or the end of the cable in the junction box scorched, and needed to be replaced; that's why the 2nd set of installers didn't have power.

So the guys replaced the damaged wire/connectors, attached the ground wire to the junction box, tested everything, hooked it up, and it works.

Why on earth the wire in the wall hadn't been grounded, I don't know. I can't imagine ANY outlet or wire being installed without grounding in 2005. Anywhere, let along a major appliance.

We have another electrical thing we want help with, so I may ask the electricians who come for that if they'd take a look at this.

Thanks for your help, everyone. It made us feel a little bit less like total idiots facing this.

Every electrical device that seemingly works properly is not necessarily wired to minimize hazards to people. And while the unit seems to be working properly, the latest people there are not fully knowledgeable. Some of what you report them saying is just baloney.

The DW still has a defect.

The ground is only required when a defect energizes parts that should not be part of the circuit.

A normally operating device NEVER puts current on the ground.

Hmmm. I'll show your two comments to my DH, who was there. And we'll get the electricians in ASAP.

Interestingly, the 2nd dishwasher, before the "surgery" to attach the ground wire, also tried to send the current down the mesh-covered water hose.

Given that the DW works, will my electrician be able to tell me if I've still got a problem? And whether that problem is in the dishwasher, or in the line?

(I kinda feel like an electrical line is actually a relatively simple thing--not that much can go wrong with it, except at connection points usually; a dishwasher seems much more complicated, w/ more opportunities for things to go wrong, cross over, etc.)

"Given that the DW works, will my electrician be able to tell me if I've still got a problem?"
If he can't find the problem quickly, kick him in the a-double-rear and get a different one.

Obviously complete bozos wired this kitchen if the under-cabinet lights are plugged into plug mold (serving as counter top outlets) on the same circuit with the dishwasher. Where is the GFCI protection for the plugmold? If there is any, the dishwasher illegally on the same circuit will likely nuisance trip the GFCI. I would have a different electrician come see what all they did incorrectly. Counter top outlet circuits can never serve a dishwasher and they certainly must be GFCI protected. Good luck!

The GFCI is on the BREAKER. Pretty basic, actually--especially with Plugmold in a kitchen. And perfectly safe. Annoying if it ever trips, yes, but not really a big deal.

The circuit has: 1 dishwasher; 2 fluorescent lights; 1 intermittently used KitchenAid stand mixer. That's all. I'm not worried about the load on the circuit.

I explained this all to my dad. He's not a licensed electrician, but he does understand it, and has done quite a bit of wiring (theater electrician, and did plenty of wiring in our home when I was a kid).

Here's his theory:

The ground wire was serving as the neutral. Either because they were mixed up in the junction box (bad electrical work by the contractor?), or because they were wired incorrectly to the dishwasher (by the installer).

So the current was traveling on the ground and thereby to the water pipe. And if it had been that way with the old dishwasher, we may not have noticed it because perhaps (he theorized) the metal of the dishwasher was enough to hold the current without transferring it to us, etc. When the new dishwasher was installed, the metal on the water hose wasn't enough, and it sparked.

He thinks that because they completely detached the wire that goes between the junction box and the DW, and then reattached it, that we should be fine.

That makes much more sense to me than it does that two dishwashers would have the same wiring fault in them that caused the current to run along the ground.

"The ground wire was serving as the neutral."

Yikes! Even a horrible electrician wouldn't make that mistake.

It sounds like you have the immediate problem fixed, but PLEASE have a knowledgeable person check out the rest of the kitchen - and probably the whole house. Using a plumbing pipe as a neutral is incredibly dangerous and stupid. Someone needs to inspect the place for other similar errors. This is not a "dishwasher doesn't work" problem. It's a "the house could burn down or someone could be electrocuted" problem.

"the metal of the dishwasher was enough to hold the current without transferring it to us,"

Electricity does not work this way.

It takes any and all paths available.

If the connection was low enough impedance the voltage may not have risen high enough to be felt, but current was still flowing.

Brickeyee, that's what my dad said--I wrote it wrong. He said either we didn't touch the right part of the DW, or we didn't notice the shock if we did.

And we'll be getting the electricians in ASAP.

The kitchen wiring was inspected by a licensed electrician, and a different electrician did some work on the Plugmold on that circuit--wouldn't the 2nd electrician, at least, have spotted a problem if the current was flowing somewhere it shouldn't have been?

I don't know if the DW installer could have used the wrong wire, or if this had to have been incipient all these years (since 2005).

Anyway, the sparky's on his way.

(I don't think we need to worry about the whole house--it's an apartment building

But anyway, DH is calling the electrician today.

If there was not a defect in the DW it simply would not have powered up.

Huh? If you put power to a dishwasher and connect the neutral to a big chunk of metal, it will certainly power up. Kinda like jumpstarting a car 60 times a second. It will just create an alternating charge on the surface of the metal. If there is a path to ground from that chunk of metal, say... a person, then current will flow and you'll get shocked.

With AC current, a big electron donator like an appliance has plenty of free electrons to impersonate a ground/neutral. It certainly isn't safe, but it will "work" until you provide a path to a true ground.

I think, normally, that the lighting circuit, countertop appliance circuit and dishwasher circuit should all be separate.

"connect the neutral to a big chunk of metal, it will certainly power up."

No, IT WILL NOT.

"With AC current, a big electron donator like an appliance has plenty of free electrons to impersonate a ground/neutral."

Wrong.

There are no spare hole for electrons to occupY.
Every one of them is filled with ... an electron.

Please see Kirchhoff's current law.

It would take a HUGE capacitor to even attempt to absorb the electrons from a load.

A 1 farad capacitor would absorb 1 amp at 1 volt for 1 second.
To absorb 1 amp at 120 V for 1 second would take 120 Farads, and even then the voltage would rise quickly and halt the current flow.

If a neutral was left not connected, but ground was connected the device would not operate.

If the ground was connected in place of a neutral the device could operate, but current would still not be flowing on the water line unless IT was connected to the neutral also (and it is not supposed to be).

Grounds only conduct current when a fault is present.

You apparently don't understand the difference between DC and AC. If AC circuits worked as you described, then any tiny neutral leak would build up incredible charges and be a lethal risk.
Also, a neutral is really just a path to ground. We just call it something else to differentiate between the unused safety "ground" and the constantly used neutral "ground." Both are just huge sinks that allow virtually unlimited movement of electrons back and forth.

You really don't need a huge "ground" the size of the earth to make an AC circuit "work." Any decent size chunk of metal has plenty of electrons to donate. That is how something like a dishwasher can build up a substantial charge. You couldn't run a DC circuit off of it, since, as you note, the charge will build up quickly BUT when you reverse polarity it cancels that out. That is one of the important safety features of an AC circuit - limited charge buildup even when something goes wrong.

"There are no spare hole for electrons to occupY. "

You really need a basic physics class if you think this is true. The defining characteristic of metals is that they DO have place for "extra" electrons and they do easily donate their electrons to others. ie they are good conductors of electrical charges. Without that property, you may as well be wiring your house with spaghetti.

Billl, yes, you do need a huge ground the size of the Earth to make an AC circuit work. Disconnecting the neutral and ground wires at your panel to an old car body (instead of the neutral from the street and ground rods) won't work. As Brickeyee mentioned, that car body's effectiveness to "ground" power will be limited to its capacitance (which will be quite low). The power distribution system in the US provides a one way set of wires (supplying power), and relies on the Earth as a return to complete the circuit.

"you do need a huge ground the size of the Earth to make an AC circuit work. "

It will not work for an AC circuit or DC circuit.

It is not "ground" you need but capacitance to allow absorb the charge.

Where did this foolish idea come from?

The plug mold can not share a circuit with the dishwasher period, doesn't matter what you plug into the plug mold. A dishwasher on a gfci is not the best idea either. Since the electricians were stupid enough to wire it this way, the whole job is likely botched together. Lose connections in junction boxes wouldn't surprise me.

When did the NEC begin to forbid powering a DW on the same circuit as kitchen counter circuits? If the DW is on a shared circuit, what can it be shared with, refrigerator, outlets in other rooms, lights?

ion, the post sounds like a demand. My suggestion is to buy a copy of the code, as I do, read Article 210.52 (B) (1) (2) (3).

Sorry, I can be rather direct. The truth is, that I probably have to go check mine out. The electrician that occupied my home for 40+ years did a lot of stuff that is really not right and the DW power supply is likely to be one of them. The trouble is, as you know, some stuff changed and at one point a shared circuit might have been alright with a DW. Some of you helpful guys have been around a while so I thought you would know off the top of your heads. There is no way I have time to go back through several years of NEC revisions. The local library does not keep older copies either ;-(

I have learned a lot here and I appreciate the time that people take to give knowledgable responses.

"It is not "ground" you need but capacitance to allow absorb the charge. "

What do you think ground is? The earth is just a really big capacitor. WAY, WAY bigger then you actually need.

Just consider how you are providing the capacitance you need for AC power. You are literally just driving a metal rod into a pretty poor conductor - ie the soil. The effects on the surrounding soil during normal operation are pretty minimal. It is only a few feet down and virtually undetectable to someone standing on the surface. You aren't using anything comparable to the size of the entire earth. You are only using electrons from a couple cubic feet of soil. It takes something on the scale of lightning to travel more than a minimal distance through a poor conductor like soil.

"What do you think ground is? The earth is just a really big capacitor. WAY, WAY bigger then you actually need. "

Not it is not and it will not work.

You are invited to try.

The first thing you need to consider is what is the second electrode of you 'earth' capacitor.

ion had a question about the small appliance circuits. While not necessarily the first edition to require the minimum of two such circuits, the 1971 NEC does require them. And rather than the NEC specifying that it forbids dishwashers on such circuits, it permits only a few other loads. Refrigerators are among them, dishwashers are not. I am not aware that such circuits were EVER permitted to serve dishwashers.

"And rather than the NEC specifying that it forbids dishwashers on such circuits, it permits only a few other loads. "

Having a list of things NOT allowed would make the NEC the size of a phone book.

Dishwashers have NEVER been allowed on the small appliance branch circuits serving the kitchen counter receptacles, and the NEC has been very explicit about this as long aa the small appliance branch circuits have been required.

This was posted almost back at the beginning:
> If a hot wire was shorted, then it shorted to a safety ground. No
> current need pass through that hose. Why did current pass through
> the hose? Maybe safety ground does not exist or was disconnected.
> Most installers would not know how to test that. A missing
> safety ground is a serious human safety threat.

Somehow, they connected a dishwasher shorted to the hot wire. When power was applied, a safety ground would have simply tripped the circuit breaker. But that safety ground (that was required even in the 1960s) was missing. So current used a hose as an electrical conductor.

(BTW grounding to water pipes is also illegal.)

Well, that might have tripped a circuit breaker. But definitely should have tripped a GFCI type circuit breaker.

A summary conclusion: A safety ground (that was required since the early 1960s) was missing. Devices that must have been powered by a GFCI type breaker either were not or were powered by a defective GFCI breaker. And installer connected that first dishwasher somehow with AC hot wires shorted to the dishwasher chassis.

You have plenty of reasons to be disappointed by everyone (especially installers) who should have known better. This was really simple stuff. No reason for anyone of them to not understand this ... unless trained in some third world nation where safety grounds do not even exist.

Wonder why so many jobs go to China.

Thanks to brickeye and bus driver for passing on some of their knowledge about exclusive kitchen circuits.

Dishwashers do not require GFCI protection under the NEC.

A manufacturer could require its use, and then you must follow the installation instructions.