The original contractor-grade electrical outlets in my home are in rough shape. Many of them are too loose to reliably accept a plug. A few are even cracked (not the outlet cover, but the face). Most of them (with exception of the bathroom and kitchen) are the "backstab" style.

I want to replace the whole lot with something "different". Other than the bathroom, I want to change all of the two-outlet boxes to quads. I really like some red outlets I've seen on a design website. My dilemma...should I go with the "standard" or Decora style?

- The "standard" red ones come only in 20A. These are NOT the isolated-ground orange ones. I plan on upgrading to 12-2 and 20A breakers wherever these are installed; no 20A outlets will go on a 15A circuit. Advantage: half the price of Decora outlets. Disadvantage: Will have to upgrade wire and breaker on each new outlet right away.

- The red Decoras come in either 15A or 20A. Will still upgrade wiring in future. Advantage: No need to upgrade wire or breakers right away with 15A units. Disadvantage: Decoras are expensive.

I don't know if "standard" outlets are more durable than Decoras. I also don't know if 20A outlets will "wear out" more quickly when plugging/unplugging only 15A plugs.

Here's what I do know...

- House panel is a 200A Square-D QO-series with plenty of room for more breakers.
- Some breakers trip from time to time because too many outlets are fed by a single breaker (iron + aircon or TV plus microwave).
- Using 20A breakers/wiring, or more breakers/homeruns will stop the nusance breaker trips.
- A dual or quad 15A outlet can be fed from a 20A breaker. However, a 15A single outlet needs a 15A breaker.
- It's my own home so local BI will issue me a permit (he's done so in the past).
- The only place "backstab" outlets should be installed is in a landfill.
- I'm a little nuts to go through all this trouble to get red outlets.

Here's what I need to know...

- Adding 20A outlets in every room would be overkill, but is it otherwise "wrong" ?
- Should I spend twice as much to get the "lesser" 15A Decora outlets, even though my pitiful wiring will be upgraded anyway ?
- Have any of you pros seen wear issues from connecting/disconnecting 15A plugs on 20A outlets ?
- Sould I install one of those KVAR units to save on my electric bills...JUST KIDDING !!!

Thanks !

Marco

There are not that many things in living rooms and many spaces that need a 20 amp circuit outside of the already required ones.

Your money might be better spent making sure there are at least two circuits in each room.
That way no all the lights go out when a breaker trips.

I have yet to see Decora receptacles in this higher grade. I haven't cracked one open, but Decoras feel to me much like the cheap half-buck, bottom shelf stuff at the big box stores. Perhaps the pros here know where to find heavy duty, long lived Decora recepts. Or maybe they can refute my judgement of Decora recepts.

PS - Most GFIs, in terms of plug-holding, remind me of the cheap receptacles, too.

Leviton makes heavy duty decora receptacles, they even make hospital grade ones as well.

Considering switches and receptacles, we purchase from our wholesale electrical suppliers. However, good quality fixtures and recessed and track lighting are available at retailers such as Lamps Plus. Many upscale electrical retailers ofter Decora fixtures, usually Leviton but others also.

Why do you think 20 amp circuits are any safer?

Adding circuits may require them to all be arc-fault protected...a potentially expensive decision.

But as brickeye said, its your money...and there really is no need or benefit to ever wire circuits as 20 amps except where required by Code.

I buy as much of my materials as I can at an electrical jobber in my area, but also buy some at the big blue store that's quite a bit closer to my home and open later. I don't generally use Decora and never had cause to ask about good quality ones at the jobber, so you're right, the only ones I've seen have been in the junk stores.

Good to know that high end Decora recepts are available. Thanks for the info.

I have always used 20A wiring for all receptacles, and at least two of the major electricians in my area seem to do the same. I use 15A and 14awg for lights.

Personally I like one 20A 'receptacles' circuit per room. If there's a section of the house where loads will be random, I'll still put the same number of circuits in but make sure they are mixed in each room. IE, a house with four bedrooms clustered together, each bedroom will have at least one receptacle on each of four circuits. Weird, but it seems to work out well.

When all of your wiring is already 12AWG and on 20A circuits, it's really immaterial whether the receptacles themselves are rated 15 or 20.

If it's your own house, then it really comes down to your own preference. I, personally, do not think 20A circuits everywhere is an insane idea at all.

Outside of kitchens and bathrooms (were 20 A receptacle circuits are required) there are not a lot of residential loads that even approach 15 A (unless you plan on using large power tools in every room).

With a 6 foot receptacle spacing you can actually plug in most lamps without using extension cords (since every place on the wall will be within 3 feet of a receptacle).

You're right, very few people plug in anything that uses 15A.

I do. Power tools yes. We've got a refrigerator in a bedroom. I like the idea of plugging an air conditioner into any outlet and not expecting to trip a breaker. A vacuum cleaner that pulls 12A?

My stereo dims the lights - not just at turn-on, but also in time with the bass. Bad wiring? Nope, just a manufacturer-claimed total of 7100 watts worth of amplifiers. YOU? Probably not, but someone? Yes.

You might not, but the next guy to live in what's currently your house might.

I like the idea of quads because because it is easier to line up bits of furniture with one set of outlets than two. One bureau has a shaver charger, cordless phone, and phone charger on it.

So do any of the pros here any experience with these outlets ?...

- Pass & Seymour CR20 commercial-grade "standard" 20A

- Pass & Seymour LeGrand 26242/26342 spec-grade Decora 15A/20A

These are the red ones I'm looking to order online. Are these "good", junk, somewhere in-between ? Please let me know.

Thanks !

Marco

Purchased any lamps lately?

There is NO requirement for cord length, and in cost saving mode most of the cords have been reduced to about 3 feet.

That means that extension cords are used many times to reach outlets on a 12 foot spacing.

Most older appliances I have DO have 6-foot (or longer) cords attached, so it was a sound idea at some point in history.

I also know cord length was never a requirement. I only assert that it was common at the time.

I haven't seen 3-foot lamp cords yet though. Kitchen appliances, yes. Lamps, no.

"We recently passed a regulation that all new residential construction and remodeles must all be wired with 12/2 20 amp systems."

And what do you hope to accomplish by that ruling?

"Manhattran, I don't really know. I was the lone no vote. In the real world, we wire receptacles on 20 amps and lights on 15 amps."

Reason I asked is that codemaking panels have tried for years to develop some sort of parameters to regulate the size of circuits and number of outlets on them to limit overloading, but none have never succeeded.

One such scheme is the NEC's current one for residential wiring that requires 20 amp circuits for small appliance, bathroom, and similar power circuits. This is an attempt to reduce overloading by permitting the most common larger household loads to be served from larger cicuits.

Another is the NEC's requirement to calculate receptacles at 180va for load purposes which has the net effect of setting a maximum number of outlets on any given 15 or 20 amp circuit.

The problem, is that neither method is effective in the prevention of overloading because there is no way to control what gets plugged into such power circuits.

If people are hell bent of plugging anything and everything into receptacles, and using multioutlet strips to increase receptacles on circuits when they run out of them, neither limiting the number of receps or demanding the circuits be 20 amps will help.

That is why the Texas scheme requiring all power circuits to be at least 20 amps remains puzzling, because although the intention appears noble, it carries the same innate flaw, and the reality is, it does nothing to prevent overloading of any circuit...and just ends up being a costly add-on with no real benefits.

Just like wiring all power circuits or the entire house with only 20 amps.
---------
So until one can actual control the loads that get plugged into circuits, only then can protection from overload really be achieved, but that will likley never happen.

As for overloads, don't overloaders get the message when the breaker trips a few times?

After seeing reno disasters for decades, I'd suggest the regulatory authorities might put more of their effort into re-inspecting older homes, say on resale, than absurdly upgrading new homes. I'm finding that the rising costs of electricity and the increasing efficiencies of household appliances are actually reducing the actual amount of power we're using.

**********
My hydro instructor, also a textbook writer on the topic, was an advocate of "spec" grade switches and receptacles. They make sense in commercial environments, but in a home are a waste of money, as far as I'm concerned. How many times a day are you plugging and unplugging things?

Oh well, overkill is certainly safer than wiring new circuits with lampcord. I hate to tell you how many times I've seen that!

Not me!

I do support electrical inspection of resale homes to ferret out lampcord circuits etc.

Challenge: Diagram these circuits. Photo:RCMP

Just as when you resell a grow-op house in Ontario, you are first required to have the home inspected by a private electrical contractor and have it brought up to standards.

More broadly, insurance companies are the drivers of electrical upgrading. In the Toronto area, they will not as a rule insure homes with less than a 100 AMP service, aluminum wiring or k&t.

This limit is NOT applicable to residential receptacles, it is for commercial only.

There is NO NEC limit on 15 A & 20 A, 120 V convenience receptacles on a residential branch circuit.

"This limit is NOT applicable to residential receptacles, it is for commercial only.

There is NO NEC limit on 15 A & 20 A, 120 V convenience receptacles on a residential branch circuit."

Correct.

And I never said that the 180va limit on receptacles was for residential purposes nor that there was a limit on the number of receptacles on residential circuits.

The 180va rule is there, however, to limit to some degree, the loads that get attached in commercial environments on any given circuit....no matter how feeble the attempt.

"As for overloads, don't overloaders get the message when the breaker trips a few times?"

They ultimately do when the house burns down...:(

"And I never said that the 180va limit on receptacles was for residential purposes nor that there was a limit on the number of receptacles on residential circuits."

All we are discusisng here is "20-Amp outlets throughout the house" so the entire statement is pointless in the present context, a house.

ooh! ooh! pick me! why do I know this one? I read the strangest things...

because somebody eons ago did some math and figured out that, in the event of a short internal to an appliance, the resistance of a length of thin lamp cord could limit the current to a value low enough to NOT TRIP a breaker over 20A, while still setting that cord ablaze...

so we can't have receptacles that accept 15A plugs connected to circuits rated over 20A.

I read that in the same book as the idea that most devices have 6-foot cords, however, so it's probably outdated.

"All we are discusisng here is "20-Amp outlets throughout the house" so the entire statement is pointless in the present context, a house."

But I had previously stated:

"Reason I asked (sic: texasredhead) is that codemaking panels have tried for years to develop some sort of parameters to regulate the size of circuits and number of outlets on them to limit overloading, but none have never succeeded.

One such scheme is the NEC's current one for residential wiring that requires 20 amp circuits for small appliance, bathroom, and similar power circuits. This is an attempt to reduce overloading by permitting the most common larger household loads to be served from larger cicuits.

Another is the NEC's requirement to calculate receptacles at 180va for load purposes which has the net effect of setting a maximum number of outlets on any given 15 or 20 amp circuit."

Nor that my comments above were made in a direct exchange with texasredhead about his local code making panel in Texas now requiring 20 amps for all power circuits in a dwelling.

So my responses completely to the point in the present context....

But now brickeye will just have another negative and baseless retort, as always, I'm sure.... (rolls eyes)

I'm sorry this thread has taken a turn for the worse. However, is there someone here who has used the P & S "commercial" or "spec-grade" outlets I mentioned above ? If so...could you tell me if they are any good ??

Thanks !

Marc

And they have yet to force it though, so ot is NOT part of the NEC and is NOT applicable.
Lots of things get proposed to the code making panels.

"Nor that my comments above were made in a direct exchange with texasredhead about his local code making panel in Texas now requiring 20 amps for all power circuits in a dwelling."

Requiring 20 mps for all power circuits is not going to do anything without a clause requiring the estimated loads to be computed at some nominal value (like the 180 V-A commercial requirement).

Without a required load value (to force a limit on receptacles per circuit) the use of 20 amp circuits is NOT going to result in better installations.

He did not say it currently applied to residential construction. The statement is that someone IS TRYING, or HAS TRIED. This has nothing to do with what is currently in effect.

texasredhead gave a CURRENT example of a regulatory attempt to prevent circuit overloading, and manhattan42 responded to it, commenting (correctly) that there are other attempts with similar intentions by other authorities.

His application of the 180va-calculation argument was correct: stating that it has been proposed, and making this statement in support of his argument (which may or may not be correct) that many attempts are made to regulate circuit loading.

There are only two possible ways to dispute this post, and three possible responses. Those three are:

A) You agree
B) You don't understand
C) You're arguing just because you like arguing

In application of A, one does not need to agree with the original point (that circuit loading regulations are attempted frequently), only that manhattan42's statement was asserting/supporting this.

P&S are generally good quality and since you are using commercial or spec grade I think you are fine. Even resi grade would be fine if you are using it in the living areas. How often are you going to plug and unplug things?

I put spec grade in the garage/basement because I figured those would see more frequent plug-unplug for shop lights, tools, etc.