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bobbyb22

Refrigerator on ungrounded GFCI circuit

bobbyb22
9 years ago

Hello. First off, thank you for reading this. I appreciate it.

My situation is that I'm renting a house in which has upgraded outlets in the kitchen and bathrooms. However, none of the wiring has been updated from 2-wire romex and so the outlets have been bootleg grounded. i.e. white wire connected from ground to neutral. Here is what I have done/plan to do in the short-term:

- Remove the jumper wire so that the outlets do not have the potential to feed current to the ground in case of a fault

- Replace the non-GFCI protected outlets with 2 pronged outlets

The fridge has supposedly always been on a GFCI circuit. Although there are a lot of possibilities here, the main question I am trying to nail down is:*** when I remove the jumper from the ground screw to neutral on the fridge outlet, will it change the way it's been working on the GFCI circuit causing issues? ***

I know there is a lot more to these questions and a lot of debate in some cases. As far as I understand, 2014 NEC guidelines call for GFCI on kitchen fridges now. Also, I understand that the fridge would also need a dedicated 20 amp circuit.

For the interim, GFCI protected outlets, even for the fridge, should be safer than the bootleg ground. The other outlets can be switched to 2 prong. Any thoughts are much appreciated in advance.

Rob

Comments (28)

  • mike_kaiser_gw
    9 years ago

    While I understand you concerns my gut reaction is that since you don't own the property it's illegal for you to do any electrical work and as a tenant it's probably not a good idea to do anything without the owner's permission.

    I'm not an electrician but my understanding is the only acceptable way to replace a 2 prong receptacle is to use a GFCI receptacle and the enclosed tag that says "no equipment ground."

  • Ron Natalie
    9 years ago

    Your installation is 100% illegal and dangerous as Mike says. What you have done is not particularly any more safer.

    As mike points out, the *ONLY* way grounded receptacles should have been installed on an ungrounded circuit is to use a GFCI (and mark the outlets No Equipment Ground).

    A GFCI doesn't care whether it has a ground connected to the line side of it. If there was a connection between neutral and ground on the protected side it SHOULD trip.

    There is NOT in 2014 NEC or has their ever been a requirement to place refrigerators in the kitchen on a GFCI. It's not controversial at all. The only requirement is for kitchens is COUNTERTOP outlets. However there is a newer requirement in 2014 that covers receptacles within 6' (in any direction) from a sink. Previously this rule didn't apply to kitchens.

  • joefixit2
    9 years ago

    To be compliant that refrigerator would need to be plugged into a grounded receptacle outlet. A non grounding type receptacle may be replaced with a GFCI but code pretty much prohibits anything requiring grounding from being plugged into it.

  • SaltiDawg
    9 years ago

    I had believed that it is not a good move to connect a refrigerator or freezer to a GFCI protected circuit or receptacle.

  • bus_driver
    9 years ago

    "but code pretty much prohibits anything requiring grounding from being plugged into it."
    What Code? If it is the NEC, please post the Article number.

  • greg_2010
    9 years ago

    That really didn't make sense to me either, bus_driver.
    Why would you be allowed to replace a non grounded receptacle with a GFCI but then not be allowed to plug anything into it?!? That's the whole point of replacing the 2 prong outlet with the 3 prong GFCI.

    That said, it usually isn't a good idea to plug a fridge or freezer into a GFCI because a nuisance trip could cause all of your food to rot before you noticed it. But there's nothing preventing you from doing that if you want to.

  • bus_driver
    9 years ago

    My freezer is in the basement. While it is a code violation, the receptacle for that freezer is not protected by GFCI. I did install the receptacle so that the freezer must be moved out to access the receptacle. I think we as free (?) adults should be able to assume risks if we so decide. Use of electricity involves some measure of risk under the best of circumstances.
    The legal penalties for my actions in this instance are slight and the chance of discovery is almost non-existent. But I am careful to observe the speed limits.

  • SaltiDawg
    9 years ago

    "While it is a code violation, the receptacle for that freezer is not protected by GFCI."

    Why was a GFCI required in that location by code???

  • bus_driver
    9 years ago

    "Why was a GFCI required in that location by code???"

    Your guess is as good as mine. Perhaps they had tee many martoonies the night before.

  • SaltiDawg
    9 years ago

    Clever answer - not.

    YOU said, "While it is a code violation, the receptacle for that freezer is not protected by GFCI."

    Do you think that a freezer in a basement is REQUIRED to be plugged into a GFCI outlet BY CODE?

  • bus_driver
    9 years ago

    Quoted so that it cannot be deleted: "Do you think that a freezer in a basement is REQUIRED to be plugged into a GFCI outlet BY CODE?"
    Salti, of late it seems to me that you carp at my every post. Why do your object to correct information being posted? If you are such an expert, get your NEC 2014 and read Article 210.8 (A) (5). There are no exceptions to (5) that apply to refrigeration equipment.
    Tell us how you interpret that section.

    This post was edited by bus_driver on Thu, Aug 28, 14 at 21:05

  • SaltiDawg
    9 years ago

    I have simply asked a question about your apparent belief that a freezer requires a GFCI. You have responded in a nasty manner twice.

    I don't even know who you are and I'm just trying to learn the requirements.

    I have not expressed so much as an opinion as to what the requirement so I do not understand why you would suggest that I am an expert.

    I'm sorry that you have launched these attacks!

  • bus_driver
    9 years ago

    "Do you think that a freezer in a basement is REQUIRED to be plugged into a GFCI outlet BY CODE?"
    If the truth posted once is not acceptable, how many postings of the identical information is required for it to be sufficient?

  • SaltiDawg
    9 years ago

    Sad. Bye.

    I hope that you deal with other posters more politely when they are trying to learn.

    Again, sad.

  • joefixit2
    9 years ago

    There used to be exceptions for GFCI protection in garages, basements, accessory buildings etc for dedicated appliances, garage door openers etc. All of these exceptions were removed starting with the 2008 NEC.

    This post was edited by joefixit2 on Thu, Aug 28, 14 at 21:47

  • joefixit2
    9 years ago

    "What Code? If it is the NEC, please post the Article number. "

    Article 110.3(B), Article 250.114(3) & (4), Article 250.138- 2011 NEC

  • SaltiDawg
    9 years ago

    Thanks, Joe, for the answer.

  • joefixit2
    9 years ago

    The scenario that can develop with appliances (and vending machines) is as follows: 1. The grounding pin is removed, broken or otherwise missing on the appliance or vending machine. 2. The appliance/vending machine is moved for cleaning/servicing. 3. During one of the movements the cord is caught under one of the legs and becomes damaged, energizing the appliance/vending machine. 4. A person (child) makes contact with the appliance/vending machine (sometimes barefoot) and suffers cardiac arrest.

    This is not speculation, this has happened. Unfortunately mostly children. I was not present during the submission and discussion of the proposal to require GFCI protection on freezers and refrigerators in garages, basements and accessory buildings but I was told that when it was brought up that this would lead to monetary loss (food). This was immediately brought into perspective when death records were produced.
    The actual published reason cited for the change was that the exceptions (readily accessible) can lead to inconsistencies in how GFCI requirements are applied.

  • bobbyb22
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thank you all for the answers.

    As I am renting, would my landlord be able to remove the bootleg ground to the fridge outlet, label it ungrounded equipment protected by gfci and call it a day?

    Again. Appreciate all the extra information. You guys are great.

  • greg_2010
    9 years ago

    I found an article that seems to apply to this case (see link below).

    Disclaimer: I'm no expert by any means.

    It seems like there isn't a clear answer either way, given this quote from the article:
    There are a number of points to consider before replacing non-grounding receptacles. One point is that the Code is non-retroactive, which begs the question of whether 250.114 applies at all in the case of receptacle replacements where the installation is not new.

    It's a good idea to follow the latest codes, but it isn't always required for you bring everything up-to-date whenever you touch a circuit. It seems like how much of a modification actually requires you to bring it up to current codes is a matter of opinion.

    Ideally, you should just replace the fridge circuit with a new grounded circuit and be done with it.

    Here is a link that might be useful: 2011 NEC Revisions for Receptacle Replacement

  • bus_driver
    9 years ago

    greg_2010, you have the explanation as far as I am concerned.
    250.114 applies to construction done while the 2011 and 2014 code is/was in force. The 2005 NEC did have the exception for basement receptacles that are not readily accessible and that exception is no longer is in the NEC.
    Some jurisdictions use older editions of the NEC and the latest edition will not necessarily apply everywhere.

  • bobbyb22
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I agree that running a dedicated 20 amp circuit for the fridge would be ideal. In this case, outlets are not being replaced, merely the bootlegged ground being removed.

    (Some outlets will be replaced with 2 prong technically but aren't important to the discussion.)

    The main concerns fall under the (unfortunately hard to find) criteria of:

    - Does removing the bootleg ground affect the way the fridge motor will operate? (can't find much here unfortunately except that it may cause voltage drops/light dimming when the compressor kicks on without the ((bootleg)) ground)
    - Are you able to plug a fridge into an ungrounded GFCI outlet? Are there any guidelines?

    Also, is there a safe way to test the validity (not continuity) of a ground without an expensive tester?

    Thank you again.

  • Ron Natalie
    9 years ago

    The refrigerator when it is working properly should not give a hoot about what the ground pin is doing: bootleg, real, or disconnected. It however is unsafe to have anything other than a real ground (if it has a grounded plug) or a GFCI.

    The fridge when working properly doesn't give a hoot if it is plugged into a GFCI or not. The only reason to give pause to that is that you may not notice the GFCI is tripped. Either get a fridge alarm or plug something else into the GFCI as well so you know if it were off.

    The only LEGAL things to have on ungrounded circuits are ungrounded receptacles OR GFCI protection.

    You have illegal circuits.
    Your screwing around with them is illegal and unsafe.

    Get your landlord to bring a real electrician in to fix this situation before the two of your screwing around with your half-assed understanding of electricity gets someone killed.

  • bobbyb22
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    While I do appreciate the information, I wouldn't say my understanding is as half-assed as the wiring. I've wired pre-construction, but to be honest this would be the first time I've tried to figure out what people were thinking in the first place. It's not easy,

    As far as illegal, the reason I am here is to ask whether any guidelines are being violated. But I wouldn't think that removing a jumper cable used to make an unsafe bootleg ground is illegal.

    I told my landlord about the issue. Haven't heard back, but he seemed surprised about the issue. Supposedly, it passed 3 inspections- 2 of them previous tenants.

    It's an old house. The way it is now seems to be up to code. I'm in total agreement to get an electrician in there, which is why I have not told my landlord that the fridge is on GFCI and it seems to actually pass inspection with a few stickers added to the outlets.

    Thanks, Rob

  • Ron Natalie
    9 years ago

    It is IILLEGAL. It is Unsafe. This is not a verison of code.
    What you have as well as what you say you have done IS illegal and unsafe. STOP POKING AT IT WITH A STICK.

  • bobbyb22
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thank you, Ron. After reading the post, please reference the laws/guidelines so that I'll have something to work with.

  • countryboymo
    9 years ago

    If the 'lord' has his own electrician say it is ok your landlord will probably try to sweep it under the rug and tell you it is fine. Where you go from there as to hiring your own electrician to inspect it or two for opinions and quotes for the landlord to repair correctly on his dime plus reimburse you for having to call ones that aren't doing favors. You might have to pay for your actual inspector somewhere in it.

    I would contact the inspector in that area for remodels or if there is one for rentals that person and pick their brain with what you know and try to get them to make a swing by. Print the codes covering this and have as many bases covered. Don't step into what might be a battle with a gun that isn't loaded or it will probably be taken from you.

    The more informed you are when you start in will usually define if the landlord tries to just have his buddy run in and say A-OK or get it repaired correctly and rather promptly.

    You might have to go to a library to copy a few pages from a few versions of the NEC or whatever other source that area uses.

    It could possibly end up with you needing to find a different person to give your hard earned money to and using the information you gathered to break your lease. I would not continue to put money in the landlords pocket if he tries to slither out of making safe repairs.

  • Ron Natalie
    9 years ago

    We have already given you the law.

    1. Amateurs are not allowed to work on electrical circuits, the existing screw up and your further screwing it up are good reason why. There's exception for DIY on your own house. You have no business doing ANYTHING to a rental property other than calling an electrician.

    2. Grounded receptacles can only be used on grounded circuits with the exception of circuits protected by a GFCI and suitably marked. I'm not going to retype all of article 250 and 406 here.

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