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PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Posted by stevebrown13 (My Page) on
Sat, Jun 14, 08 at 8:38

Hello Garden Web Electrical people. I'm a master electrician in Texas and constantly see products like the KVAR unit and many other power saving devices in my inbox. You guys did such an excellent job with the KVAR that I wanted to get your feedback on PoweroRx e3 ? I'm not an electrical engineer, however if one of these devices actually worked, I'd like to be able to recommend it to my customers. www.SlowDownMyElectricMeter.com Thanks


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Looks like it is a KVAR unit, surge suppressor and noise filter all in one. To me it sounds like a marketing gimmick.

If I were you, I'd just offer your customers the whole house panel-mounted surge suppressor and forget the rest.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

I know of it and it does work.

It is a 3 in one system. It saves money by using MOV's (metal oxide varistors) to store unused power that was paid for. It allows for power factor optimization.

It also acts as a surge protector and also cleans up the power eliminating noise.

I have installed one in my home and I have been saving on average about 25% on my electric bill. Formula 1 says to install a whole house surge protector and forget the rest. I say I don't want to forget the $50 that I save every month on my electric bill with the Powerworx E3.

Here is a link that might be useful: Powerworx E3


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

MOV's don't store power. Well, maybe about as much as a radio frequency bypass capacitor, which is micro volt-amps that is insignificant to your power usage.

They burn the extra power of voltage spikes, if it is in their range.

>>I have installed one in my home and
>>I have been saving on average about 25% on my electric bill.

These may be two correct statements, but it leaves a lot to the imagination to think the savings was due to the device. You may also have changed the circumstances in other ways.

I won't believe a significant savings from one of these gadgets until someone shows me actual data with a full accounting of what kind of loads were involved and assurance they did not change between measurements with and without the "efficiency device".


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Hmm are we getting the shills again?

I would have to echo, MOVs do not store energy, they waste/dissipate the energy they trap, and most don't kick in until 400v or more. Surge protectors are a great idea but I am unconvinced these gismos work, I assume it's the same people/products, different names ;-)

If these gadgets DO work, I'll be willing to bet it's a fault in the meter, rather than any actual true energy savings....there is really no way these things could store energy. If they 'fool' the meter through some sort of feedback or something, eventually I expect the poco's will catch on.

I too, am sceptical, and I love gadgets, but mostly the ones that work.

MOVs do also have a finite life - after a time they need to be replaced, I can't remember if they fail open-circuit or they just cease to protect.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

The most often observed failure mode for an MOV is shorted, with usually spectacular results. There is no doubt that they can also fail "open", but given the typical application, that failure isn't likely to be noticed. Most people never test an MOV based surge protector, they generally assume that if the unit lights up and isn't smoking it is OK.

I have an old-fashioned Joselyn (sp?) brand spark gap "arrester" on my service entry, and another on the branch circuit feeding my largest TV etc. I think they cost about $15 when installed- and no doubt have saved that amount many times over.

While most of us here realize that residential power is billed in Kwh, not Kvar, "John D. Homeowner" is going to look at the reduced amp reading caused by an over-priced capacitor and plunk his $$$ on the table. Selling the things is like shooting fish in a barrel...


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Come on guys Power Factor Correction has been around for ever...
Read Department of Energy Fact Sheet on Power Factor
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/industry/bestpractices/pdfs/mc60405.pdf
Most motorized home appliances (air conditioning units, refrigerators, freezers, ceiling fans, washers, dryers, dishwashers, pool pumps, vacuum cleaners, furnace blowers, etc.) operate most efficiently when theyre operating at full capacity. When theyre not working at full capacity they pull more energy than they use, wasting the difference.
And lets face it, rarely does any appliance or device in your home constantly work at full capacity. In fact, the average home in America today operates at a power factor of .77. That means 23% of the electricity being delivered to the home is being wasted by the use of motorized appliances working at less than capacity.
You can increases that power factor, in most cases, to .97 or .98, therefore increasing the effective use of your electricity and lowering your usage.

More information at http://www.SlowMyElectricMeter.com

Here is a link that might be useful: Slow My Electric Meter


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

what the energy star website says about it.

Here is a link that might be useful: energy star website


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

austin there are two facts that make your explanation wrong
1) The extra volt-amps due to poor power factor are not wasted, but rather "borrowed and returned" during parts of the AC cycle. Engineering theory calls this "reactive power" Larger current flows because of it, but the only loss is due to the larger current in the wire resistance, which is a very small percentage.
2) The meter on your house does not measure volt-amps, it measures actual watts. Poor power factor does not increase the meter reading by that ratio.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

I am amazed that these devices keep showing up.
Don't you think that if they really worked, they would be mandated by building code?
Wouldn't they be about the biggest thing since the PC if they really worked?
We'd be reading about them on the front page of the paper and investing in their stock if they really worked.
Get real people, don't let yourselves get ripped off by snake oil salesmen.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

I note that Austin Powers there apparently signed up just to make that post.

How nice.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Mr Bill Hart I am happy to see others use their real name here.

My explanation is not the clearest but this site does explain in detail:
http://www.the-power-factor-site.com
It is an EE site
In his Energy Savings Page he gives an example with the bottom line being
'saving approximately $350 per year at 15 cents per kWH.
So.....Beware of spending large capital sums in the name of 'Energy Savings'.

My question is -as rates rise the ROI is shorter thus making it a useful tool in money saving.
I would much rather spend todays money to save tomorrows and the next days money.

I would say this may not be efficient for all homes...new homes with State of the Art energy star approved appliances. Small homes that have few motors in use. This is not a Cure All for all homes but a viable piece of equipment to help reduce your over all energy expenses.

Hmmm funny how modern motors have PFC circuits built in them and are used in Appliances that are energy star rated but energy star says it doesn't work. Go figure.

Some more responses to comments:

1.) 'Reactive power is a quantity that is normally only defined for alternating current (AC) electrical systems. Our U.S. interconnected grid is almost entirely an AC system where the voltages and currents alternate up and down 60 times per second (not necessarily at the same time). In that sense, these are pulsating quantities. Because of this, the power being transmitted down a single line also 'pulsates' - although it goes up and down 120 times per second rather than 60. This power goes up and down around some 'average' value - this average value is called the 'real' power and over time you pay for this in kilowatt-hours of energy. If this average value is zero, then all of the power being transmitted is called 'reactive' power. You would not normally be charged for using reactive power because you are consuming some energy half the time, and giving it all back the other half of the time - for a net use of zero. To distinguish reactive power from real power, we use the reactive power unit called 'VAR' - which stands for Volt-Ampere- Reactive. Voltage in an electrical system is analogous to pressure in a water system. Current in an electrical system is analogous to the flow of water in a water system.'

'Two extreme examples of the time relationship between voltage and current are found in inductors and capacitors. An inductor is a coil of wire that is used to make motors. A capacitor is made of parallel conductive plates separated by an insulating material. The electrical properties of these two devices are such that if they are both connected to the same AC voltage source, the inductor absorbs energy during the same 'half cycle' that the capacitor is giving energy. And similarly, the inductor produces energy during the same 'half cycle' that the capacitor absorbs energy. Neither of them absorbs any real power over one complete cycle. Thus, when a motor needs reactive power, it is not necessary to go all the way back to electric power generators on the transmission grid to get it. You can simply put a capacitor at the location of the motor and it will provide the VARs needed by the motor. This relieves the generator and all the lines between the generator and the motor of having to transmit those VARs. They are provided 'locally' by the capacitor. This means that with the capacitors installed, the current in the lines will be smaller than when the capacitors are not installed. This is a good thing because current in the lines causes heat and every line can only handle a limited amount of current. Since the line current is smaller when the capacitors are installed, the voltage drop along all the lines is also less, making it more likely that the motor will have a voltage closer to the desired value. When there are not enough VARs flowing locally to the loads, the generators must supply them remotely, causing unnecessarily large currents and a resulting drop in voltage everywhere along the path.'

-Peter W. Sauer, Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

2.) Yes the meter is in watts but ...reactive power is measured in a unit called Volt-Amps-Reactive (VAR), rather than watts.

3.) mandated by building code? We cant even get sprinkler systems mandated by code yet and they have been around for over a hundred years.

4.) The PC has been around since the late 1960s but didn't even get its name until 1981 and didnt become a house hold name until late 80s early 90s.

5.)News Story
Power Supply features ITE and medical safety approvals.
July 22, 2008

The Tradesarc 150 and 200 are 230V single-phase power sources equipped with a power factor correction (PFC) circuit making it possible to use the full range of the machine on a 16A fuse.

The PFC also protects the machines against fluctuating mains voltage and makes them safer to use with a generator.
23 June 2008

State-owned power utility Eskom urged consumers to reduce their electricity usage by 10%...solutions being studied by Eskom may be more appropriate, possibly along with incentives to install power factor correction equipment.
July 4, 2008

'Energy box' aims to help conserve wasted electricity
June 16, 2008

Just wait a little longer youll see tax credit information soon enough.

6.) As for the snake oil sales Ed Kimmel of Continental Power Corporation (CPC) has been producing these unit for 15 years. I think in 15 years if they were a scam the FTC or some State AG would have shut him down by now even in their sea of red tape.

7.) Oh and I note Ill be here for a while..I just dont hang out on the web all day, busy enough with other things

Respectfully Submitted
Austin Meadows

Here is a link that might be useful: SlowMyElectricMeter


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Current is NOT power.
Changing the current by adjusting power factor using capacitors will NOT change the dissipated power.

Residential power is NOT billed by power factor (like some large users) so saving the POCO money in line losses will NOT reduce your electric bill.

V-A power correction for residential customers is a SCAM and bonvine scatology.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

why, oh why did you bump this thread? The last response was months ago! Didn't get enough from the last thread?


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Are their any Powerworx distributors who have a website that shows their actual bills over a period of time. Put up or shut-up. Love, Rich.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

So that no one is caught unaware, vacman 20008 is involved in marketing these KVAR devices.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

I wanted to make sure anyone looking for 'kvar' would see something in the thread calling it out for the BS it is.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Thanks guys for your feedback. I'm still on the sideline when recommending anything other than good whole house suppresion. We'll let the power bills speak for themselves. Although I seldom post with you guys, I frequently read your comments and find them informative and entertaining. Thx


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Hi SteveBrown13,

I dont have a powerwoRx in my home, but a friend of my does and he has been saving about 18 to 22% on his monthly bill. So for all you people out there saying that it doesnt work youre wrong. I will get copies of his bill before and after he installed powerwoRx and post it on here.

In the mean time I do have a link to a copy of someones bill before and after powerwoRx was installed for you all to look at that someone sent me. http://www.chippynews.com/meter.pdf

I will be getting a powerwoRx unit installed in my home next week. I am not only looking forward to the energy savings, but am excited about the surge protector. I also want to go green and help the environment. I found this (see below) on another site and thought I would share it with you all.

How Would This Help the Environment?

Installing the PowerwoRx e3 system in your home will reduce the need to produce electrical energy reducing the amount of coal and oil being burned to generate the electric energy, resulting in the reduction of environmentally harmful emissions of carbon dioxide, nitrous oxide and sulfur dioxide.

If 500,000 homes across the country installed PowerwoRx e3 systems this would reduce the need to generate 17 megawatts of electricity: saving 42,250 tons of coal or 231,500 barrels of oil and reducing by 98,250 tons of carbon dioxide, 42,000 pounds of nitrous oxide and 221,500 pounds of sulfur dioxide of annual greenhouse emissions.

Sincerely,
Gregg Conner

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.chippynews.com/meter.pdf


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

And Gregg was nice enough to register today, just to post that for us...


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Do you have anything against registering and posting on the same day? I have to make a first post sometime you know! Ive been reading others post on garden web for sometime now and just noticed the powerwoRx questions and thought I would tell you what I knew.

I was just trying to help!!! Im not telling people they should buy a powerworx unit all Im saying is my friend loves his and thats why Im getting one. Besides the guy I will be buying it from will buy it back and pay me $100 if it doesnt save me at least 10% per month. He said out of 87 powerwoRx he sold he only had to buy 1 back and it was only because the person was gone on vacation most of the year so didnt see the savings.

Oh, and vacman_20008 you wanted to see copies of actual bills. I posted one for you in the link in my last post.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

It is interesting that those enthusiastic endorsements of these devices invariably come from those who register on the same day they initially post the endorsements. Same person with multiple registrations?


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Since we know that power companies only charge for KWh and that power factor correction devices do not affect KWh to any significant degree, there is a course of action that can be taken by anyone who believes that they can prove that their magic device actually reduces their power bills, and this would bring in much more money than they would ever save :
1) Telephone the power company and ask them if the power meter is affected by power factor correction. When they reply, (as they will) that no, PFC will have no effect on the meter, tell them that you have installed a PFC device and that by your tests it DOES slow the meter down, and that you would like to have it checked please. To make sure that they listen up, add that you will be making a claim for the overcharging.
2) When the power company sends a service tech around, perform your tests and show him that your magic box slows the meter down. The tech will either a) explain to you why your tests are invalid, or b) change the meter out which will confirm that it was faulty in the first place.

If the meter was faulty, you will be eligible for a substantial refund from the power company, since they will have been overcharging you for as long as you have been connected. Further, as the first person to prove decades of scientists, engineers and electricians wrong about simple AC theory, you will be eligible for much fame and fortune, not least from the company that peddles these magic boxes.

I say go for it, and don't forget to past back and gloat/eat crow when you get your result.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Well, I was getting all excited about purchasing one of these things, but thanks to this thread, I'm back to square one.

I must first correct stevefromohio from back in July. Steve said that the MOV's stored energy and that started some on of you down a wrong path. MOV's do not store energy.
According to the manufacturer's website(www.ecotrustenergy.com), The PowerwoRxe3 contains:
- 2 Electrolytic Capacitors
- 2 Harmonic Filters
- 2 MOVfs for Surge/Spike protection

The pages go on to say, "PowerwoRx e3 provides energy savings by reducing the amount of power drawn from your utility with the use of specially designed harmonic resistant capacitors."

Please review the attached .pdf file for specs and FAQ's for this device. If you have difficulty accessing the link, go to www.ecotrustenergy.com, click on Warranty & Specs (at the top of the page), then click on "Download the Specifications PDF Document" under the specifications section.

After speaking with a couple of electricians that I am acquaintances with...both of which have not dome any research on the devices, but had reviewed the .pdf file...basically said that for whole house surge protection and noise filtration, this seems legitimate and probably worth purchasing, and the possibility of some energy savings seems to be possible and would be a bonus.

So, my question is this...

What is the true value of this product vs. the value placed on this product by energy costs and marketing? What are the guts of this thing really worth?

Thank you in advance to all who provide legitimate, focused responses that are valid and fact based.

By the way, it should be noted that it is extremely difficult to prove energy saving by comparing one mot=nth of this year to that same month of last year. There are many variables that need to be taken into consideration and some time and effort will be needed to accurately calculate the difference. So, if anyone has taken the time and "energy" to do so, I would be very interested in seeing your results.

Here is a link that might be useful: EcoTrust Energy PowerwoRX e3


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

chris_m_2008 also registered today. For me the question of the value of the components in these "devices" is irrelevant. Other than limited surge protection by the MOV's, they have no functional value in a residence. Surge protection is available at far less cost from suppliers such as SqD. Otherwise the components could be used a fireplace mantle decoration. But more attractive mantle decorations are available, many at lower cost.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Well bus_driver, I was hopefully optimistic that I can get some factual, supported information, but unfortunately, that is exactly the response that I had expected. Not really informative, just sarcastic.

First of all, I must note that I am a skeptic by nature. I do not feel strongly either way for this device. I learned of it through a friend who watches GreenTV and knows that I am the "researcher" in my neighborhood. I'm just sticking to my word and doing my due diligence.

Some questions...
1) Did you take the time to review the documentation that I had attached on my first thread? If not, then regardless of how qualified you are to respond, your answer is meaningless.

2) Just how qualified are you? What do you know about these capacitors and MOV's and things like micro farads? Please provide your credentials.

All I'm trying to do is get a sincere, honest and technically credible response. Can anyone out there provide me with that type of response?

I've come across many threads similar to this one and they all just wind up becoming sarcastic and misconstrued and simply, not relevant. Let's not have that happen here.

Thanks,
Chris

Here is a link that might be useful: ecotrust energy specs pdf


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

I've read the linked pdf file. I have an MS in electrical engineering and worked for 33 years in electronics.

The claim that power factor is significant to residential billing is wrong. The meter measures true power and disregards reactive power. That invalidates most of the savings claims for residential users. We have yet to find any residential user who has documented that their power company charges them for poor power factor. Only large commercial users appear to be charged for power factor.

On page 8, the document makes this very argument. It notes that if all loads in the house are turned off, about 3-4 amps of current still flows in the wires to the device but the house meter will not turn. This is reactive power which circulates but is not "burned" and so does not register on the meter. The same behavior is why you don't pay for poor power factor on motors or other equipment in the home.

A motor with lagging power factor stores some energy during the AC cycle (in addition to what it burns) and returns it to the line at another time in the cycle. Power factor correction (the device's capacitor) trades this reactive power back and forth with the motor. The motor does not burn the reactive power any more than the correction capacitor does. If you don't have the capacitor, the reactive power trades back and forth between the motor and the power grid. It cancels out in the utility's meter.

There is a potential for a tiny savings in power costs by correcting power factor, in that lowering the reactive current lowers wire losses. Since wire losses are a very few percent of you total usage and you can save some small part of that very few percent, it is not very significant. And you only get a savings if you correct the power factor near the load (motor) that is causing it, not after it has run through the wiring to the main panel because it is in that wiring run that the small loss occurs.

The document says that the device uses a fixed capacitance to correct power factor. Thus even if you were paying for poor power factor, they admit the correction is only right for an "average" situation. The discussion about 105% power factor is nonsense. If you have either a leading or lagging condition, the power factor is less than 100% by definition.

There seems to be a disagreement in their statements that they use a 10 microfarad capacitor (I assume it is one 10 uF capacitor per hot leg.) and that 3-4 amps flow into the device with household loads off. The reactance of 10 uF at 60 Hz is 265 ohms. At 120 volts that is 0.45 amp. Are they claiming several amps due to noise coming in from the outside? Or are their numbers wrong? This is unclear.

My conclusion is that it may provide some protection from spikes, and some filtering of noise (but that is better done near the source and possibly at lower cost), but it cannot provide significant savings on the electric bill. Any claims of savings by comparing monthly bills probably ignores actual variations in what loads were turned on for how long each month.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Thank you Bill. That's the kind of answer I was hoping for. I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to address my concerns.

Just a quick follow-up to your response....

I have two refrigerators
We wash and dry at least 6 loads of laundry per week
I have a dehumidifier running 24/7
We run our dishwaher at least twice per week
I have a well pump
I have two laptops and a desktop that are running 24/7
I have two zone heating and air conditioning in my two story house consisting of two Furnaces (forced hot air heat)and two air conditioning units.
I have an electric heat pump for my pool.

All of which are not energy star rated and used in excess.

Given that description, will this product save me anything?

Or, is there any product manufactured today that can?

Once again, thank you for your time.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Billhart's post above is spot on, as you would expect from an electrical engineer. These capacitors-in-a-box are promoted using deliberate misrepresentation.

The reason that some get tetchy in forums such as this is the posts from the scam merchants where, having had their pseudoscientific arguments thoroughly debunked, they resort to ad hominem attacks on the debunkers.

I too am an electrical engineering graduate, I have 25 years experience in telecoms, power electronics and power system design. My current role requires me to design power factor correction systems for large industrial plants, and this requires a solid understanding of power factor correction theory.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

I assumed, apparently wrongly so, that Chris M had reviewed the abundance of previous posts on this subject. Posting credentials is pointless as they are quickly derided by the purveyors of these devices. And I saw no need to repeat the technical information that has already been posted. Functional value is negligible. But depending on one's taste, these might have decorative value, as I mentioned.

Here is a link that might be useful: Try this link


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Or, is there any product manufactured today that can?

Yes, it's called a "Kill-A-Watt".

When it shows you just how much electricity your two fridges, dehumidifier, and three computers are using, you might just decide to make some small lifestyle changes that will save you significant amounts of electricity.

I was able to make changes (turn off the beer fridge, replace my home server with a much more power efficient model, put our home entertainment centers (but not the DVR) on power strips, etc) that save about 7 kWh per day.

Yes, we have to fit a little more in our only fridge and, yes, it takes an extra step to watch TV, but we are more than willing to put up with it to save over $400 a year (a 30% savings).


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Here's an excerpt from my 'energy rant' regarding these pieces of junk, also see this website for more info on them.

http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/powerfactor.html

Another scam that's been revived is the 'phase controller' that supposedly saves electricity by making motors run more efficiently. Home show demonstrations with an electric motor show it's electricity usage dropping dramatically when the motor is plugged into the device rather than straight into the incoming power. These devices actually do work in the applications they are designed for...this has the unfortunate effect of helping the scammers (or to give them the benefit of the doubt, uneducated-in-electricity folk) sell these things. An industrial application that produces savings would be a big table saw in a woodworking shop that runs constantly. When it's not cutting wood, the motor is under no load and at that moment, a phase controller will save energy. The goal of electrical engineers is to make sure anything with a motor runs that motor at rated capacity at all times...that's the point a motor is most efficient. Their striving for this is what has made ACs and refrigerators much more efficient lately. The point here is motors in your home all run at rated load all the time. There is no 'off load' time like with the big table saw. A 'phase controller' saves nothing in this situation


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!SCAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If they really worked as advertised (which they don't) they would be required to be installed in every house in the country as soon as a law could be passed. Especially in California. Chances are, ones who are promoting the use of such items on this and other forums are probably also selling the product. Surprising? I think not.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Since this has resurfaced, I had to have a read of it and laugh, my favourite part being "It saves money by using MOV's (metal oxide varistors) to store unused power that was paid for" - if you're going to scam people talk about waveforms etc a lot more, which far fewer of us understand, than put out such an obviously erroneous statement.

Otherwise, why would APC be selling surge suppressors AND ups units? Your suppressor could do both!


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Friend of the family gave us one of these for Christmas... Just got it installed today - and I'm in the "show me" phase. I figure, hey - it was free... so let's see if it works or not. Of course he swears by it, but he sells 'em, so if I see anything significant, I'll post again. I did read the thread and there's a wide range of opinions - most negative. I agree, if this was the greatest thing since sliced bread, it would be all over the news, etc....


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

To anyone looking into this stuff.Not that I am an electrical engineer but I work for an electrical contractor that installed the Power Save 1200 (similar unit.) Unfortunately after we became an installer we started to receive harassing phone calls from someone who stated they were KVAR (similar competitor of Powersave 1200). These phone calls were very threatening to our company and caused a re-evaluation of this product due to the fact the persons stated that they were currently in a lawsuit with Powersave 1200 for stealing there UL listing, patent infringement, the Powersave was made in China with fire hazardous materials, etc. The barrage of phone calls went on for several weeks. During the evaluation the owner of the company I work for placed a unit on his own residence. From his personal opinion he did not see a savings on his electric bill. We have had several customers call and complain that the unit did not show a saving on there electrical bill either. So in short after several refunds and to avoid any more threatening phone calls we NO LONGER INSTALL NOR RECOMMEND the Powersave 1200. Powersave 1200, KVAR and Powerworx E3 have very similar claims on the products.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Just read the whole thread. Decided to Register. Here's my first post...

I'm not an EE. I instinctively doubt these gizmos can do more than enrich the seller.

However, if the Amp reading on the house side of the meter goes down and the meter does not see a boost in Voltage from the service drop, then, based on the formula, P=IE, the meter should slow down. Seems pretty straight forward to me. If the Voltage (E) is constant and the Amperage (I) drops then the Watts (P) consumed must also drop. What am I missing? It seems that the only way for the electric meter to not slow down would be raising the service voltage.

Here's another question...if these are wired in parallel, how can they see and impact inductive loads on all branch circuits? I might feel better about device specific mounting like on a plant floor. This seems to say that if you rub a little garlic on your electric meter you can avoid vampire loss


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

This previous thread covers the subject as well as any new posts could hope to do. If you honestly seek to know more, read the previous postings on this previous thread. Then if you want one, buy it TODAY. If you are selling this worthless junk, please be honest enough to stop victimizing the gullible.

Here is a link that might be useful: Previous thread


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

This thread is like the monster in a horror film. Just when you think the heroine's finally done him in, you see (in a conveniently framed shot so you know it's coming) him/her/it sitting up for another round....


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

"Seems pretty straight forward to me. If the Voltage (E) is constant and the Amperage (I) drops then the Watts (P) consumed must also drop. What am I missing?"

That amps times volts is NOT power?

Power = amps x volts x power factor.
But the devices do not change the real power dissipated, and residential customers are NOT billed by power factor.

The kilowatt-hour meter on your house already takes the power factor into account and only bills for the real power used.
Changing the power factor will not alter the meter readings.
All the 'correction' does is reduce line losses, a very small amount.

Large power users ARE billed based on power factor.
Adjusting power factor does not reduce the real power they dissipate, but reduces the current the POCO must supply.

The POCO must supply total power and it costs them money to deal with poor power factor loads.
They are supplying current that is not billed.
Notice how UPS systems are rated in 'VARS'?
And that the watt rating is always lower than the VAR rating?
The UPS must supply both the real power dissipated and the reactive power that is moving around but performs no work.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

I'm not as concerned about the energy savings as I am about saving my equipment from power surges and brownouts. Does this device perform in this arena, or can anyone suggest a good solution please? I've been replacing AC condensers and am also worried about my refrigerator. I need something that can handle the load. Thanks for you guidance


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

This product use to be exclusive to EcoTrust however that company was bought out and the product is now carried by Natural Air Direct

Here is a link that might be useful: PowerwoRx e3


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Jesse,

Read your terms of conditions on this forum, you are not to use it to promote products or businesses, which clearly you are, from your uname/email.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Sorry to keep this post alive; however, I am confident some of the contributors will let me know whether my proposed test is valid.

First let me state I am not an electrician or an electrical engineer; however, I think the following test should be easy to perform and end this debate.

1. Remove all electric loads in house
2. I think electric meter should be stopped, so take a reading
3. Turn on a constant inductive load for a fixed duration
4. Turn off load and take reading at meter
5. Enable KVAR or whatever device is under consideration
6. repeat steps 1 - 4
7. Compare measurements

I am guessing that there may be variation in a load and I am not sure about the accuracy of the common electric meter; however, I would think that a longer duration would compensate if these are issues. Is there any reason this won't work?

If this is indeed a valid test, then the absence of these results from any of the proponents would seem to answer whether these devices have any value in a residence.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

"Sorry to keep this post alive; however..."

You SHOULD be sorry to keep this post alive!!!

However, it is clear that you are NOT sorry in the least. You flew in to this forum and registered before the sun came up this morning for the express purpose of exhuming this rotten corpse. You did not come here to participate legitimately in this forum; you came only to suck blood.

PLEASE LEAVE AND GO BACK TO YOUR COFFIN, WHERE YOU BELONG!!

Don't feed the vampire, folks. Let this thread moulder in the grave, where it belongs.

KVAR trolls are among the nastiest and most persistant. KVAR Spammer Syndrome is potentially contagious and cannot be cured. And don't fool yourself: garlic, wooden stakes and reasoned argument--even silver crosses--will not work.

The best treatment is to observe a strict quarantine.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

What about Continental Power Corporation products

Power condintioning system .Has more than these KVAR guys.Mainly designed for commerical to see savings.Any one

have any info on these guys.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Aaargh. bumbebad,

Read the whole thread, re-read it. Read the tech specs for this other product. Figure it out.

Take a look at your government web sites that offer incentives for installing energy-efficient appliances? How many snake-oil power factor correcting et al devices do you see? None? Hmm. I suppose it could be a poco conspiracy - oh hang on, they give us grants to install energy-saving devices, so I guess it's not a conspiracy after all.

Why ask these good people to spoon-feed you? Do some of your own research. If the literature says it's power factor correction, then it's not going to do residential connections any good - you yourself are saying it's probably for commercial use only. Is that what you're proposing? Why not buy one, on the proviso of getting your money back if you don't see a saving over, say, two years?

Oh for goodness sake, I just looked those people up. Guess what they make?
PowerwoRx!! There's your answer. You'll get some surge suppression and filtering, don't expect any savings apart from protection of appliances.

Are you lazy, or do you work for them? Right up front it says they manufacture PowerwoRx. Are the answers in this discussion not clear enough?


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Is there an admin on this site? Please remove, or at least lock this thread.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

The keyword is powerfactor. Try a $25 Kill-A-Watt to
see what the power factor your device is running at.

I only have 2 things that have motors. My refrigerator and the blower motor for the heater. Most motors are
80% efficient and new ones are about 90-98% depending
on their design.

Put your kill-a-watt on the refrigerator and you'll see
the power factor. If it's .85 then you're wasting 15% of
what the total is. If the unit uses $300 / year you're
wasting $45.

The blower motor could be replaced, at Grainger, with
a new one that has a known power factor. They'll
tell you right up front as it's the latest in commercial
thinking to lower energy use.

The cost of a new quality low power factor motor might
be $300 at the most. It would pay for itself in 10 years
or so I'd guess. You can do the math. How many
watts (or hp) versus how long it's on per year = total power.

My Window AC has a power factor of 0.95 by the way at
any setting. According to the kill-a-watt.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

EDIT: The PF of the Panasonic 9000 BTU is 0.91 at
any setting. Sorry for the error.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Gardurnit,

The key word is READ THE THREAD you....err whatever.

Residential customers do not get charged for power factor error. We get to do it for free, and are not metered or charged for it. Large commercial customers do. Power factor correction might be good for the pocos however they do not expect us to do it. We will not get any financial benefit from correcting it.

Go away.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Correcting the power factor does not save user power. It merely reduces the RMS line current per watts of power delivered. It saves in big industrial applications because smaller conductors may be installed; and the power company may require it for big users to reduce the current in the power company's lines. The extra current represent increased resistive line losses.

The power meter on your house is an amazing instrument. It actually integrates (calculus math) the product of instantaneous current and voltage which integrated over several cycles is (RMS current) x (RMS voltage) x PowerFactor. The PowerFactor (Pf) is unity when the curent and voltage are in phase. It is less than unity when the current either leads or lags the voltage.

Capacitive loads have leading currents and inductive loads have lagging currents. An exception is the synchronous motor. It may have either leading or lagging current by adjusting its field.

When the current is 90 deg out of phase with the voltage, the net power delivered is zero even though the line current may be large. This idealized mathematical case is rarely realized. Most practical installations have some power factor.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

I've used a KVAR unit since April 2008. I have seen a solid 9-11% reduction in my electrical KWH consumption. I use a heat pump and have a couple of freezers (energy star rated) as well as an energy star rated refrig.

If not for the heat pump, I would likely not have the unit. I posted detailed results on the Tree Hugger Forums (Power factor Correction thread) for those interested in checking out the figures and the testing method.

I've seen many of the same arguments posted here and on a now closed KVAR thread on this site why it shouldn't work. However, my results show it does. Again, I can't say that for everybody becauswe every home and set of equipment is different. However...my appliances and heat pump were new when I bought the unit.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

speedymonk,

If you bought your appliances at the same time that you bought the unit, how can you be noticing a 10% reduction in your consumption? You wouldn't have anything to compare it against. You might want to change your "story" the next time you try to fool someone.

Anecdotal evidence does not trump science.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Greg H
I have been in the home 2.5 years. New construction I moved in March 2007. I hooked up the KVAR April 2008. Nothing to change in my story. And yes, it does work. Power bills don't lie, especially over a year's time. Tests were also specific if you check the Tree Hugger forum I mentioned.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

"However...my appliances and heat pump were new when I bought the unit."

So, you've been in the house since March 2007, and got new appliances, heat pump and a KVAR in April 2008, at which time your electrical consumption went down 9 to 11%. I'm so dumb that I would have thought that new appliances = more efficient appliances, so the consumption would naturally go down.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

New house with new appliances in 2007. KVAR added in 2008. 9%-11% average energy reduction.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

I have seen a solid 9-11% reduction in my electrical KWH consumption. I use a heat pump and have a couple of freezers (energy star rated) as well as an energy star rated refrig.

And you accounted for seasonal HVAC variances how, exactly?


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Check the Tree Hugger forums (Everything Green) Power factor thread and the "What's your Average KWH consumption" and you'll see how the tests were done. I've also factored in HDD and CDD (heating degree days and cooling degree days) and temperature comparrisons.

For specific test results, you'll need to check posts in the October 2008 period.

I've over a year of KWH figures and the results have been consistent. My heat pump is a single speed Trane Xl41i, so no variable speed to factor.

Enough other people say they have gotten similar results. I find that the detractors can't/won't believe something would actually work as advertised because it goes against what they expect to see. Sorry my results don't match the expectations. I'm not claiming 25-50% like some of the folk. I realized 9-11% and that's what the product literature said I could probably expect.

Caveat Emptor. Your mileage may vary. Mine was and is as expected.

I simply responded to the question earlier posted to share my results and a link to the forums where the results are posted. If you want/need more specifics, go to those threads. I think I am finished with this thread on this forum.

Thank you.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Powerworx is now called EcoPower4 and it works.
While you guys are arguing on who could piss farther, I'll be installing these babies everywhere and making money.
My customers are loving me because I helped them save money and protect their equipment.
Diner saves $800 mo, Deli $450, mechanic $500, but they don't just want it for the savings.... they want it for the protection of their equipment.
When you guys finish your contest on who knows more and you're ready to make money let me know.
I can hook you up on becoming a dealer so you can start selling and installing them.
THIS IS NO GIMMICK, IF THE CUSTOMER HAS MOTORS, THEN IT WORKS.
HAVE FUN!

Here is a link that might be useful: Energy Solutions


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Welcome to villagegonegreen's Member Page

See my Clippings See my Journal See my trade list

I live in: United States

My birthday is on September 21.

First registered on August 9, 2009.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Hi all,

I was on the internet researching the PowerWorx e3 unit. We drove over to my folks place today after church and my dad told/showed me this unit he had bought from my uncle. Anyways, long story short, he's had it installed now for one complete billing cycle and his kwh usage was down 600 from last month. 2300+/- to 1750+/-.

We live in FL and have hot weather and high electric bills in the summer. We live in different towns and I have a bigger home and use roughly 2600kwh per month. My last bill was $400.

My home's bill/usage is always around the same esp. in the hot summer months of June/July/Aug. Just thought I would post some "hard numbers". If his usage is down again next month (and also we will be comparing to last years monthy bills), I'm gonna be seriously considering one of these untis.

I think they are roughly $500, but if work as seen here, will pay for itself in less than a year depending on how much your usage is. For me, roughly 6 months. I will try to remember to post a follow-up to this in a month.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Welcome to jamison162's Member Page

I live in: United States

My birthday is on December 4.

First registered on August 10, 2009.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Check the Tree Hugger forums (Everything Green) Power factor thread and the "What's your Average KWH consumption" and you'll see how the tests were done.

No ... I am not going to search for a single post on a different site that I've never been to before. Either provide a direct link to your data and methodology or provide a copy here.

I've also factored in HDD and CDD (heating degree days and cooling degree days) and temperature comparrisons.

The precision of a daily radiative budget summed up by the average of the high and low for a day allows for a non-trivial variance in direct comparison. For example, two 25 CDDs often require different amounts of energy consumption depending on a number of other variables not captured by the value.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

BTW, if you are doing comparisons to other years, a lot of places in the US were much colder than normal in July:

'Based on NOAA's Residential Energy Demand Temperature Index, the contiguous U.S. temperature-related energy demand was 13.3 percent below average in July.'

Here is a link that might be useful: NOAA: July Temperature Below-Average for the U.S.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

You are all crazy. You cannot squeeze more FORCE out of an electron. MAYBE you can fool a ElecCo meter....

So Ya MAYBE HIGH INRUSH MOTOR LOADS will benefit, but my fridge does not inrush enough for Snake Oil.

Especially when the MOV fails, on what side of the breaker is the MOV? What's the interrupting rating of this MOV?

Probably less than my meter, how about your's?

Yeah, where exactly, do we wire in this device?

Hmmmmmm.............


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

I tested a unit from www.energysavermart.com which is like the KVAR in claiming huge savings. I bought 3 units from them - a 2401M which is the whole house unit installed at the breaker panel and (2) 2401S units which are installed at the A/C or heat pump and are wired on the output side of the power relay so that they are only energized when the A/C is running.

These units have a 30 day satisfaction guarantee so I figured "what the heck?" and bought them.

I have read reports from the skeptics saying these devices do not work and from the testimonials of users who say their electric bills were dramatically reduced. I figured the best and only way for me to decide whether these work was a controlled experiment, which I performed as follows:

I first turned off all of the breakers in my house except for one of my two A/C units and one of my two furnaces (for the blower motor). I then turned my thermostat up to 80 degrees and I checked my electric meter for 4 minutes to make sure that it did not move (which it did not) verifying that I had no electric load running.

I then turned my thermostat down to 60 degrees and used my stopwatch to time how long it took my electric meter to make 50 revolutions, which was 6 minutes and 30 seconds (390 seconds).

I then turned the thermostat back up and installed one of the 2401S units, removing the hard start capacitor (as per the written instructions). I then turned the thermostat back down to 60 degrees and used my stopwatch to time how long it took my meter to make 50 revolutions, which was now 6 minutes and 29 seconds (389 seconds, which was virtually the same as without the unit installed, but actually 1 second faster!).

I then turned the thermostat back up to 80 degrees and I removed the 2401S from my A/C, reinstalling the hard start capacitor. I turned the thermostat down to 60 degrees and again timed how long it took my electric meter to make 50 revolutions, which was now 6 minutes and 27 seconds (387 seconds).

So - my results were 390 seconds without the unit, 389 seconds with the unit, 387 seconds again without the unit. All trials were within 1% of each other which would be within a normal margin of error for no change, so I feel confident in saying that the 2401S made no difference in the metered electric usage.

All three trials were within a 40 minute period in the morning (10:00 am to 10:40 am) with the ambient air temperature virtually unchanged. My A/C is positioned so that it received no direct sun at any time during my experiment.

I did NOT measure the amp draw with or without the 2401S unit, since I was only concerned with saving money and my electric bill is based on the meter movement, not on the measured amp draw.

As a note of praise for www.energysavermart.com - the units seemed to be well built, the installation instructions were well written and easy to follow, and when I returned the units under the 30 day satisfaction guarantee my money was promptly refunded to my PayPal account with no problems or hassles. I was unable to check the internal wiring on the unit because it was sealed and opening it would have voided my warranty and voided my ability to exercise my 30 day satisfaction return.

In conclusion - do these devices save money on a residential electric meter? In my opinion - NO!!!! I admit that I did not test the KVAR brand though, but the principle of that device is the same.

To any of the KVAR dealers (or to the sellers of any other similar devices) out there - if you believe that your units do actually work, send me one and I will promptly install your device and do a controlled test to determine the electric meter usage both with and without the device installed. If your unit does not save electricity, I will return it to you (you pay postage). Furthermore, if I am able to measure even a 5% reduction in electric usage (which is far less than the claims on your devices) I WILL GLADLY PAY FULL LIST PRICE for the unit and allow my name, photograph, and results to be used for free in any advertising and testimonials for your product.

ANY TAKERS???


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Victor registered for this forum today and posted this "message" twice. One can assume that the reason was to shill for this worthless junk.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

He is not trying to sell the gadgets. He says pretty clearly that he tested one and it did nothing measureable.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

As reluctant as I am to spend the time to post a reply to a topic that has a last feedback of over 3 years ago, I feel feel compeled to do so, in the hopes that the next person that stumbles on to this topic, can actually have some clear and constructive information on power conditioners. First of all, I have been in the distribution of energy products for over 15 years involved both in the HVAC and solar industries. I also employ electrical engineers in my business, and yes, we have recommended power correction devices (conditioners) many times in the past, especially on commercial applications. We have also done extensive research on the many products that claim to save energy, and have only agreed to distribute 2 brands out of the many power type conditioners out there..becuase, as some of the threads on this post say, there is a lot of snake oil out there. However, if you use the right product, tremendous benefits are realized.

That being said, we need to clear up the air as to where the benefits are most realized with power conditioners. In residential applications, because majority of homes do not use large motor appliances, you don't want to make erroneous claims of energy savings. It's just no there. Power correction devices require large inductive motors, to correct the power factor enough to realize savings. This is apparent all day long in industrial facilities, and many white papers from many utilities have been written on this topic. So being that power factor correction is minimal in a residential application;you want to install a power correction device for surge and spike protection of all your appliances and electronics, and electrical line noise, which is defined as Radio Frequency Interference (RFI) and Electromagnetic Interference (EMI). You certainly can install power cord strips throughout your house, but between doing that, and buying noise filtering devices, you are better off investing in a good power conditioner.

By the way the Powerowerx e3 product mentioned, is a fine product as long as you understand it's purpose for residential applications.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Ecat1
First registered on December 29,2013.

Registered today to try to feed us today some of the aftermath of what his neighbor's bull ate yesterday.

"Powerowerx e3 product mentioned, is a fine product"
A waste of your money.


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Wow, didn't think someone from back then would still be watching this topic and respond to this thread...and so quickly! My post is not meant for the naysayers, but rather intended for an educated audience looking for accurate info...

Of course at the end of the day, It's your choice to take the advise of the "bus driver" :-)


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

Our newly-arrived charlatan/profiteer uses the old trick of politicians-- disparage the opposition without offering any facts. Such as disparaging a screen name and using it as "proof" of ignorance. Through this old thread are numerous links to authoritative references showing the lack of value for power factor correction for residences. Power factor correction does not deal with surges
The person posting as Brickeyee has not posted recently. It should be noted that he earned a Doctorate in Electrical Engineering. His advice can be considered worthwhile.

And for those who might be inclined to spend big bucks for a useless device, have you noticed that that the Congress outlawed the domestic manufacture of the most popular incandescent lamps but has not at all even suggested the use of PowerwoRx e3?

Here is a link that might be useful: Scam


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RE: PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

We can stop talking about it now, the admins have removed the post.


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