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stevebrown13

PowerwoRx e3---Know anything about it ?

stevebrown13
15 years ago

Hello Garden Web Electrical people. I'm a master electrician in Texas and constantly see products like the KVAR unit and many other power saving devices in my inbox. You guys did such an excellent job with the KVAR that I wanted to get your feedback on PoweroRx e3 ? I'm not an electrical engineer, however if one of these devices actually worked, I'd like to be able to recommend it to my customers. www.SlowDownMyElectricMeter.com Thanks

Comments (73)

  • bus_driver
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    chris_m_2008 also registered today. For me the question of the value of the components in these "devices" is irrelevant. Other than limited surge protection by the MOV's, they have no functional value in a residence. Surge protection is available at far less cost from suppliers such as SqD. Otherwise the components could be used a fireplace mantle decoration. But more attractive mantle decorations are available, many at lower cost.

  • chris_m_2008
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well bus_driver, I was hopefully optimistic that I can get some factual, supported information, but unfortunately, that is exactly the response that I had expected. Not really informative, just sarcastic.

    First of all, I must note that I am a skeptic by nature. I do not feel strongly either way for this device. I learned of it through a friend who watches GreenTV and knows that I am the "researcher" in my neighborhood. I'm just sticking to my word and doing my due diligence.

    Some questions...
    1) Did you take the time to review the documentation that I had attached on my first thread? If not, then regardless of how qualified you are to respond, your answer is meaningless.

    2) Just how qualified are you? What do you know about these capacitors and MOV's and things like micro farads? Please provide your credentials.

    All I'm trying to do is get a sincere, honest and technically credible response. Can anyone out there provide me with that type of response?

    I've come across many threads similar to this one and they all just wind up becoming sarcastic and misconstrued and simply, not relevant. Let's not have that happen here.

    Thanks,
    Chris

  • billhart
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've read the linked pdf file. I have an MS in electrical engineering and worked for 33 years in electronics.

    The claim that power factor is significant to residential billing is wrong. The meter measures true power and disregards reactive power. That invalidates most of the savings claims for residential users. We have yet to find any residential user who has documented that their power company charges them for poor power factor. Only large commercial users appear to be charged for power factor.

    On page 8, the document makes this very argument. It notes that if all loads in the house are turned off, about 3-4 amps of current still flows in the wires to the device but the house meter will not turn. This is reactive power which circulates but is not "burned" and so does not register on the meter. The same behavior is why you don't pay for poor power factor on motors or other equipment in the home.

    A motor with lagging power factor stores some energy during the AC cycle (in addition to what it burns) and returns it to the line at another time in the cycle. Power factor correction (the device's capacitor) trades this reactive power back and forth with the motor. The motor does not burn the reactive power any more than the correction capacitor does. If you don't have the capacitor, the reactive power trades back and forth between the motor and the power grid. It cancels out in the utility's meter.

    There is a potential for a tiny savings in power costs by correcting power factor, in that lowering the reactive current lowers wire losses. Since wire losses are a very few percent of you total usage and you can save some small part of that very few percent, it is not very significant. And you only get a savings if you correct the power factor near the load (motor) that is causing it, not after it has run through the wiring to the main panel because it is in that wiring run that the small loss occurs.

    The document says that the device uses a fixed capacitance to correct power factor. Thus even if you were paying for poor power factor, they admit the correction is only right for an "average" situation. The discussion about 105% power factor is nonsense. If you have either a leading or lagging condition, the power factor is less than 100% by definition.

    There seems to be a disagreement in their statements that they use a 10 microfarad capacitor (I assume it is one 10 uF capacitor per hot leg.) and that 3-4 amps flow into the device with household loads off. The reactance of 10 uF at 60 Hz is 265 ohms. At 120 volts that is 0.45 amp. Are they claiming several amps due to noise coming in from the outside? Or are their numbers wrong? This is unclear.

    My conclusion is that it may provide some protection from spikes, and some filtering of noise (but that is better done near the source and possibly at lower cost), but it cannot provide significant savings on the electric bill. Any claims of savings by comparing monthly bills probably ignores actual variations in what loads were turned on for how long each month.

  • chris_m_2008
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you Bill. That's the kind of answer I was hoping for. I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to address my concerns.

    Just a quick follow-up to your response....

    I have two refrigerators
    We wash and dry at least 6 loads of laundry per week
    I have a dehumidifier running 24/7
    We run our dishwaher at least twice per week
    I have a well pump
    I have two laptops and a desktop that are running 24/7
    I have two zone heating and air conditioning in my two story house consisting of two Furnaces (forced hot air heat)and two air conditioning units.
    I have an electric heat pump for my pool.

    All of which are not energy star rated and used in excess.

    Given that description, will this product save me anything?

    Or, is there any product manufactured today that can?

    Once again, thank you for your time.

  • paulusgnome
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Billhart's post above is spot on, as you would expect from an electrical engineer. These capacitors-in-a-box are promoted using deliberate misrepresentation.

    The reason that some get tetchy in forums such as this is the posts from the scam merchants where, having had their pseudoscientific arguments thoroughly debunked, they resort to ad hominem attacks on the debunkers.

    I too am an electrical engineering graduate, I have 25 years experience in telecoms, power electronics and power system design. My current role requires me to design power factor correction systems for large industrial plants, and this requires a solid understanding of power factor correction theory.

  • bus_driver
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I assumed, apparently wrongly so, that Chris M had reviewed the abundance of previous posts on this subject. Posting credentials is pointless as they are quickly derided by the purveyors of these devices. And I saw no need to repeat the technical information that has already been posted. Functional value is negligible. But depending on one's taste, these might have decorative value, as I mentioned.

  • shadow700
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Or, is there any product manufactured today that can?

    Yes, it's called a "Kill-A-Watt".

    When it shows you just how much electricity your two fridges, dehumidifier, and three computers are using, you might just decide to make some small lifestyle changes that will save you significant amounts of electricity.

    I was able to make changes (turn off the beer fridge, replace my home server with a much more power efficient model, put our home entertainment centers (but not the DVR) on power strips, etc) that save about 7 kWh per day.

    Yes, we have to fit a little more in our only fridge and, yes, it takes an extra step to watch TV, but we are more than willing to put up with it to save over $400 a year (a 30% savings).

  • garymunson-2008
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here's an excerpt from my 'energy rant' regarding these pieces of junk, also see this website for more info on them.

    http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/powerfactor.html

    Another scam that's been revived is the 'phase controller' that supposedly saves electricity by making motors run more efficiently. Home show demonstrations with an electric motor show it's electricity usage dropping dramatically when the motor is plugged into the device rather than straight into the incoming power. These devices actually do work in the applications they are designed for...this has the unfortunate effect of helping the scammers (or to give them the benefit of the doubt, uneducated-in-electricity folk) sell these things. An industrial application that produces savings would be a big table saw in a woodworking shop that runs constantly. When it's not cutting wood, the motor is under no load and at that moment, a phase controller will save energy. The goal of electrical engineers is to make sure anything with a motor runs that motor at rated capacity at all times...that's the point a motor is most efficient. Their striving for this is what has made ACs and refrigerators much more efficient lately. The point here is motors in your home all run at rated load all the time. There is no 'off load' time like with the big table saw. A 'phase controller' saves nothing in this situation

  • btharmy
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!SCAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    If they really worked as advertised (which they don't) they would be required to be installed in every house in the country as soon as a law could be passed. Especially in California. Chances are, ones who are promoting the use of such items on this and other forums are probably also selling the product. Surprising? I think not.

  • pjb999
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Since this has resurfaced, I had to have a read of it and laugh, my favourite part being "It saves money by using MOV's (metal oxide varistors) to store unused power that was paid for" - if you're going to scam people talk about waveforms etc a lot more, which far fewer of us understand, than put out such an obviously erroneous statement.

    Otherwise, why would APC be selling surge suppressors AND ups units? Your suppressor could do both!

  • susan_fletcher_tx_rr_com
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Friend of the family gave us one of these for Christmas... Just got it installed today - and I'm in the "show me" phase. I figure, hey - it was free... so let's see if it works or not. Of course he swears by it, but he sells 'em, so if I see anything significant, I'll post again. I did read the thread and there's a wide range of opinions - most negative. I agree, if this was the greatest thing since sliced bread, it would be all over the news, etc....

  • marketingdir
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    To anyone looking into this stuff.Not that I am an electrical engineer but I work for an electrical contractor that installed the Power Save 1200 (similar unit.) Unfortunately after we became an installer we started to receive harassing phone calls from someone who stated they were KVAR (similar competitor of Powersave 1200). These phone calls were very threatening to our company and caused a re-evaluation of this product due to the fact the persons stated that they were currently in a lawsuit with Powersave 1200 for stealing there UL listing, patent infringement, the Powersave was made in China with fire hazardous materials, etc. The barrage of phone calls went on for several weeks. During the evaluation the owner of the company I work for placed a unit on his own residence. From his personal opinion he did not see a savings on his electric bill. We have had several customers call and complain that the unit did not show a saving on there electrical bill either. So in short after several refunds and to avoid any more threatening phone calls we NO LONGER INSTALL NOR RECOMMEND the Powersave 1200. Powersave 1200, KVAR and Powerworx E3 have very similar claims on the products.

  • olddiyguy
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just read the whole thread. Decided to Register. Here's my first post...

    I'm not an EE. I instinctively doubt these gizmos can do more than enrich the seller.

    However, if the Amp reading on the house side of the meter goes down and the meter does not see a boost in Voltage from the service drop, then, based on the formula, P=IE, the meter should slow down. Seems pretty straight forward to me. If the Voltage (E) is constant and the Amperage (I) drops then the Watts (P) consumed must also drop. What am I missing? It seems that the only way for the electric meter to not slow down would be raising the service voltage.

    Here's another question...if these are wired in parallel, how can they see and impact inductive loads on all branch circuits? I might feel better about device specific mounting like on a plant floor. This seems to say that if you rub a little garlic on your electric meter you can avoid vampire loss

  • bus_driver
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This previous thread covers the subject as well as any new posts could hope to do. If you honestly seek to know more, read the previous postings on this previous thread. Then if you want one, buy it TODAY. If you are selling this worthless junk, please be honest enough to stop victimizing the gullible.

  • pjb999
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This thread is like the monster in a horror film. Just when you think the heroine's finally done him in, you see (in a conveniently framed shot so you know it's coming) him/her/it sitting up for another round....

  • brickeyee
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Seems pretty straight forward to me. If the Voltage (E) is constant and the Amperage (I) drops then the Watts (P) consumed must also drop. What am I missing?"

    That amps times volts is NOT power?

    Power = amps x volts x power factor.
    But the devices do not change the real power dissipated, and residential customers are NOT billed by power factor.

    The kilowatt-hour meter on your house already takes the power factor into account and only bills for the real power used.
    Changing the power factor will not alter the meter readings.
    All the 'correction' does is reduce line losses, a very small amount.

    Large power users ARE billed based on power factor.
    Adjusting power factor does not reduce the real power they dissipate, but reduces the current the POCO must supply.

    The POCO must supply total power and it costs them money to deal with poor power factor loads.
    They are supplying current that is not billed.
    Notice how UPS systems are rated in 'VARS'?
    And that the watt rating is always lower than the VAR rating?
    The UPS must supply both the real power dissipated and the reactive power that is moving around but performs no work.

  • jhimmy
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm not as concerned about the energy savings as I am about saving my equipment from power surges and brownouts. Does this device perform in this arena, or can anyone suggest a good solution please? I've been replacing AC condensers and am also worried about my refrigerator. I need something that can handle the load. Thanks for you guidance

  • admin_naturalairdirect_com
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This product use to be exclusive to EcoTrust however that company was bought out and the product is now carried by Natural Air Direct

  • pjb999
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jesse,

    Read your terms of conditions on this forum, you are not to use it to promote products or businesses, which clearly you are, from your uname/email.

  • scoobydooby
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sorry to keep this post alive; however, I am confident some of the contributors will let me know whether my proposed test is valid.

    First let me state I am not an electrician or an electrical engineer; however, I think the following test should be easy to perform and end this debate.

    1. Remove all electric loads in house
    2. I think electric meter should be stopped, so take a reading
    3. Turn on a constant inductive load for a fixed duration
    4. Turn off load and take reading at meter
    5. Enable KVAR or whatever device is under consideration
    6. repeat steps 1 - 4
    7. Compare measurements

    I am guessing that there may be variation in a load and I am not sure about the accuracy of the common electric meter; however, I would think that a longer duration would compensate if these are issues. Is there any reason this won't work?

    If this is indeed a valid test, then the absence of these results from any of the proponents would seem to answer whether these devices have any value in a residence.

  • terribletom
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Sorry to keep this post alive; however..."

    You SHOULD be sorry to keep this post alive!!!

    However, it is clear that you are NOT sorry in the least. You flew in to this forum and registered before the sun came up this morning for the express purpose of exhuming this rotten corpse. You did not come here to participate legitimately in this forum; you came only to suck blood.

    PLEASE LEAVE AND GO BACK TO YOUR COFFIN, WHERE YOU BELONG!!

    Don't feed the vampire, folks. Let this thread moulder in the grave, where it belongs.

    KVAR trolls are among the nastiest and most persistant. KVAR Spammer Syndrome is potentially contagious and cannot be cured. And don't fool yourself: garlic, wooden stakes and reasoned argument--even silver crosses--will not work.

    The best treatment is to observe a strict quarantine.

  • bumbebad
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What about Continental Power Corporation products

    Power condintioning system .Has more than these KVAR guys.Mainly designed for commerical to see savings.Any one

    have any info on these guys.

  • pjb999
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Aaargh. bumbebad,

    Read the whole thread, re-read it. Read the tech specs for this other product. Figure it out.

    Take a look at your government web sites that offer incentives for installing energy-efficient appliances? How many snake-oil power factor correcting et al devices do you see? None? Hmm. I suppose it could be a poco conspiracy - oh hang on, they give us grants to install energy-saving devices, so I guess it's not a conspiracy after all.

    Why ask these good people to spoon-feed you? Do some of your own research. If the literature says it's power factor correction, then it's not going to do residential connections any good - you yourself are saying it's probably for commercial use only. Is that what you're proposing? Why not buy one, on the proviso of getting your money back if you don't see a saving over, say, two years?

    Oh for goodness sake, I just looked those people up. Guess what they make?
    PowerwoRx!! There's your answer. You'll get some surge suppression and filtering, don't expect any savings apart from protection of appliances.

    Are you lazy, or do you work for them? Right up front it says they manufacture PowerwoRx. Are the answers in this discussion not clear enough?

  • kurto
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Is there an admin on this site? Please remove, or at least lock this thread.

  • gardurnit
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The keyword is powerfactor. Try a $25 Kill-A-Watt to
    see what the power factor your device is running at.

    I only have 2 things that have motors. My refrigerator and the blower motor for the heater. Most motors are
    80% efficient and new ones are about 90-98% depending
    on their design.

    Put your kill-a-watt on the refrigerator and you'll see
    the power factor. If it's .85 then you're wasting 15% of
    what the total is. If the unit uses $300 / year you're
    wasting $45.

    The blower motor could be replaced, at Grainger, with
    a new one that has a known power factor. They'll
    tell you right up front as it's the latest in commercial
    thinking to lower energy use.

    The cost of a new quality low power factor motor might
    be $300 at the most. It would pay for itself in 10 years
    or so I'd guess. You can do the math. How many
    watts (or hp) versus how long it's on per year = total power.

    My Window AC has a power factor of 0.95 by the way at
    any setting. According to the kill-a-watt.

  • gardurnit
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    EDIT: The PF of the Panasonic 9000 BTU is 0.91 at
    any setting. Sorry for the error.

  • pjb999
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Gardurnit,

    The key word is READ THE THREAD you....err whatever.

    Residential customers do not get charged for power factor error. We get to do it for free, and are not metered or charged for it. Large commercial customers do. Power factor correction might be good for the pocos however they do not expect us to do it. We will not get any financial benefit from correcting it.

    Go away.

  • jemdandy
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Correcting the power factor does not save user power. It merely reduces the RMS line current per watts of power delivered. It saves in big industrial applications because smaller conductors may be installed; and the power company may require it for big users to reduce the current in the power company's lines. The extra current represent increased resistive line losses.

    The power meter on your house is an amazing instrument. It actually integrates (calculus math) the product of instantaneous current and voltage which integrated over several cycles is (RMS current) x (RMS voltage) x PowerFactor. The PowerFactor (Pf) is unity when the curent and voltage are in phase. It is less than unity when the current either leads or lags the voltage.

    Capacitive loads have leading currents and inductive loads have lagging currents. An exception is the synchronous motor. It may have either leading or lagging current by adjusting its field.

    When the current is 90 deg out of phase with the voltage, the net power delivered is zero even though the line current may be large. This idealized mathematical case is rarely realized. Most practical installations have some power factor.

  • speedymonk
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've used a KVAR unit since April 2008. I have seen a solid 9-11% reduction in my electrical KWH consumption. I use a heat pump and have a couple of freezers (energy star rated) as well as an energy star rated refrig.

    If not for the heat pump, I would likely not have the unit. I posted detailed results on the Tree Hugger Forums (Power factor Correction thread) for those interested in checking out the figures and the testing method.

    I've seen many of the same arguments posted here and on a now closed KVAR thread on this site why it shouldn't work. However, my results show it does. Again, I can't say that for everybody becauswe every home and set of equipment is different. However...my appliances and heat pump were new when I bought the unit.

  • greg_h
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    speedymonk,

    If you bought your appliances at the same time that you bought the unit, how can you be noticing a 10% reduction in your consumption? You wouldn't have anything to compare it against. You might want to change your "story" the next time you try to fool someone.

    Anecdotal evidence does not trump science.

  • speedymonk
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Greg H
    I have been in the home 2.5 years. New construction I moved in March 2007. I hooked up the KVAR April 2008. Nothing to change in my story. And yes, it does work. Power bills don't lie, especially over a year's time. Tests were also specific if you check the Tree Hugger forum I mentioned.

  • mrpandy
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "However...my appliances and heat pump were new when I bought the unit."

    So, you've been in the house since March 2007, and got new appliances, heat pump and a KVAR in April 2008, at which time your electrical consumption went down 9 to 11%. I'm so dumb that I would have thought that new appliances = more efficient appliances, so the consumption would naturally go down.

  • speedymonk
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    New house with new appliances in 2007. KVAR added in 2008. 9%-11% average energy reduction.

  • shadow700
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have seen a solid 9-11% reduction in my electrical KWH consumption. I use a heat pump and have a couple of freezers (energy star rated) as well as an energy star rated refrig.

    And you accounted for seasonal HVAC variances how, exactly?

  • speedymonk
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Check the Tree Hugger forums (Everything Green) Power factor thread and the "What's your Average KWH consumption" and you'll see how the tests were done. I've also factored in HDD and CDD (heating degree days and cooling degree days) and temperature comparrisons.

    For specific test results, you'll need to check posts in the October 2008 period.

    I've over a year of KWH figures and the results have been consistent. My heat pump is a single speed Trane Xl41i, so no variable speed to factor.

    Enough other people say they have gotten similar results. I find that the detractors can't/won't believe something would actually work as advertised because it goes against what they expect to see. Sorry my results don't match the expectations. I'm not claiming 25-50% like some of the folk. I realized 9-11% and that's what the product literature said I could probably expect.

    Caveat Emptor. Your mileage may vary. Mine was and is as expected.

    I simply responded to the question earlier posted to share my results and a link to the forums where the results are posted. If you want/need more specifics, go to those threads. I think I am finished with this thread on this forum.

    Thank you.

  • villagegonegreen
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Powerworx is now called EcoPower4 and it works.
    While you guys are arguing on who could piss farther, I'll be installing these babies everywhere and making money.
    My customers are loving me because I helped them save money and protect their equipment.
    Diner saves $800 mo, Deli $450, mechanic $500, but they don't just want it for the savings.... they want it for the protection of their equipment.
    When you guys finish your contest on who knows more and you're ready to make money let me know.
    I can hook you up on becoming a dealer so you can start selling and installing them.
    THIS IS NO GIMMICK, IF THE CUSTOMER HAS MOTORS, THEN IT WORKS.
    HAVE FUN!

  • bus_driver
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Welcome to villagegonegreen's Member Page

    See my Clippings See my Journal See my trade list

    I live in: United States

    My birthday is on September 21.

    First registered on August 9, 2009.

  • jamison162
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi all,

    I was on the internet researching the PowerWorx e3 unit. We drove over to my folks place today after church and my dad told/showed me this unit he had bought from my uncle. Anyways, long story short, he's had it installed now for one complete billing cycle and his kwh usage was down 600 from last month. 2300+/- to 1750+/-.

    We live in FL and have hot weather and high electric bills in the summer. We live in different towns and I have a bigger home and use roughly 2600kwh per month. My last bill was $400.

    My home's bill/usage is always around the same esp. in the hot summer months of June/July/Aug. Just thought I would post some "hard numbers". If his usage is down again next month (and also we will be comparing to last years monthy bills), I'm gonna be seriously considering one of these untis.

    I think they are roughly $500, but if work as seen here, will pay for itself in less than a year depending on how much your usage is. For me, roughly 6 months. I will try to remember to post a follow-up to this in a month.

  • bus_driver
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Welcome to jamison162's Member Page

    I live in: United States

    My birthday is on December 4.

    First registered on August 10, 2009.

  • shadow700
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Check the Tree Hugger forums (Everything Green) Power factor thread and the "What's your Average KWH consumption" and you'll see how the tests were done.

    No ... I am not going to search for a single post on a different site that I've never been to before. Either provide a direct link to your data and methodology or provide a copy here.

    I've also factored in HDD and CDD (heating degree days and cooling degree days) and temperature comparrisons.

    The precision of a daily radiative budget summed up by the average of the high and low for a day allows for a non-trivial variance in direct comparison. For example, two 25 CDDs often require different amounts of energy consumption depending on a number of other variables not captured by the value.

  • shadow700
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    BTW, if you are doing comparisons to other years, a lot of places in the US were much colder than normal in July:

    'Based on NOAA's Residential Energy Demand Temperature Index, the contiguous U.S. temperature-related energy demand was 13.3 percent below average in July.'

  • kensnh
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You are all crazy. You cannot squeeze more FORCE out of an electron. MAYBE you can fool a ElecCo meter....

    So Ya MAYBE HIGH INRUSH MOTOR LOADS will benefit, but my fridge does not inrush enough for Snake Oil.

    Especially when the MOV fails, on what side of the breaker is the MOV? What's the interrupting rating of this MOV?

    Probably less than my meter, how about your's?

    Yeah, where exactly, do we wire in this device?

    Hmmmmmm.............

  • victor_folk
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I tested a unit from www.energysavermart.com which is like the KVAR in claiming huge savings. I bought 3 units from them - a 2401M which is the whole house unit installed at the breaker panel and (2) 2401S units which are installed at the A/C or heat pump and are wired on the output side of the power relay so that they are only energized when the A/C is running.

    These units have a 30 day satisfaction guarantee so I figured "what the heck?" and bought them.

    I have read reports from the skeptics saying these devices do not work and from the testimonials of users who say their electric bills were dramatically reduced. I figured the best and only way for me to decide whether these work was a controlled experiment, which I performed as follows:

    I first turned off all of the breakers in my house except for one of my two A/C units and one of my two furnaces (for the blower motor). I then turned my thermostat up to 80 degrees and I checked my electric meter for 4 minutes to make sure that it did not move (which it did not) verifying that I had no electric load running.

    I then turned my thermostat down to 60 degrees and used my stopwatch to time how long it took my electric meter to make 50 revolutions, which was 6 minutes and 30 seconds (390 seconds).

    I then turned the thermostat back up and installed one of the 2401S units, removing the hard start capacitor (as per the written instructions). I then turned the thermostat back down to 60 degrees and used my stopwatch to time how long it took my meter to make 50 revolutions, which was now 6 minutes and 29 seconds (389 seconds, which was virtually the same as without the unit installed, but actually 1 second faster!).

    I then turned the thermostat back up to 80 degrees and I removed the 2401S from my A/C, reinstalling the hard start capacitor. I turned the thermostat down to 60 degrees and again timed how long it took my electric meter to make 50 revolutions, which was now 6 minutes and 27 seconds (387 seconds).

    So - my results were 390 seconds without the unit, 389 seconds with the unit, 387 seconds again without the unit. All trials were within 1% of each other which would be within a normal margin of error for no change, so I feel confident in saying that the 2401S made no difference in the metered electric usage.

    All three trials were within a 40 minute period in the morning (10:00 am to 10:40 am) with the ambient air temperature virtually unchanged. My A/C is positioned so that it received no direct sun at any time during my experiment.

    I did NOT measure the amp draw with or without the 2401S unit, since I was only concerned with saving money and my electric bill is based on the meter movement, not on the measured amp draw.

    As a note of praise for www.energysavermart.com - the units seemed to be well built, the installation instructions were well written and easy to follow, and when I returned the units under the 30 day satisfaction guarantee my money was promptly refunded to my PayPal account with no problems or hassles. I was unable to check the internal wiring on the unit because it was sealed and opening it would have voided my warranty and voided my ability to exercise my 30 day satisfaction return.

    In conclusion - do these devices save money on a residential electric meter? In my opinion - NO!!!! I admit that I did not test the KVAR brand though, but the principle of that device is the same.

    To any of the KVAR dealers (or to the sellers of any other similar devices) out there - if you believe that your units do actually work, send me one and I will promptly install your device and do a controlled test to determine the electric meter usage both with and without the device installed. If your unit does not save electricity, I will return it to you (you pay postage). Furthermore, if I am able to measure even a 5% reduction in electric usage (which is far less than the claims on your devices) I WILL GLADLY PAY FULL LIST PRICE for the unit and allow my name, photograph, and results to be used for free in any advertising and testimonials for your product.

    ANY TAKERS???

  • bus_driver
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Victor registered for this forum today and posted this "message" twice. One can assume that the reason was to shill for this worthless junk.

  • DavidR
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    He is not trying to sell the gadgets. He says pretty clearly that he tested one and it did nothing measureable.

  • Ecat1
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    As reluctant as I am to spend the time to post a reply to a topic that has a last feedback of over 3 years ago, I feel feel compeled to do so, in the hopes that the next person that stumbles on to this topic, can actually have some clear and constructive information on power conditioners. First of all, I have been in the distribution of energy products for over 15 years involved both in the HVAC and solar industries. I also employ electrical engineers in my business, and yes, we have recommended power correction devices (conditioners) many times in the past, especially on commercial applications. We have also done extensive research on the many products that claim to save energy, and have only agreed to distribute 2 brands out of the many power type conditioners out there..becuase, as some of the threads on this post say, there is a lot of snake oil out there. However, if you use the right product, tremendous benefits are realized.

    That being said, we need to clear up the air as to where the benefits are most realized with power conditioners. In residential applications, because majority of homes do not use large motor appliances, you don't want to make erroneous claims of energy savings. It's just no there. Power correction devices require large inductive motors, to correct the power factor enough to realize savings. This is apparent all day long in industrial facilities, and many white papers from many utilities have been written on this topic. So being that power factor correction is minimal in a residential application;you want to install a power correction device for surge and spike protection of all your appliances and electronics, and electrical line noise, which is defined as Radio Frequency Interference (RFI) and Electromagnetic Interference (EMI). You certainly can install power cord strips throughout your house, but between doing that, and buying noise filtering devices, you are better off investing in a good power conditioner.

    By the way the Powerowerx e3 product mentioned, is a fine product as long as you understand it's purpose for residential applications.

  • bus_driver
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ecat1
    First registered on December 29,2013.

    Registered today to try to feed us today some of the aftermath of what his neighbor's bull ate yesterday.

    "Powerowerx e3 product mentioned, is a fine product"
    A waste of your money.

  • Ecat1
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow, didn't think someone from back then would still be watching this topic and respond to this thread...and so quickly! My post is not meant for the naysayers, but rather intended for an educated audience looking for accurate info...

    Of course at the end of the day, It's your choice to take the advise of the "bus driver" :-)

  • bus_driver
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Our newly-arrived charlatan/profiteer uses the old trick of politicians-- disparage the opposition without offering any facts. Such as disparaging a screen name and using it as "proof" of ignorance. Through this old thread are numerous links to authoritative references showing the lack of value for power factor correction for residences. Power factor correction does not deal with surges
    The person posting as Brickeyee has not posted recently. It should be noted that he earned a Doctorate in Electrical Engineering. His advice can be considered worthwhile.

    And for those who might be inclined to spend big bucks for a useless device, have you noticed that that the Congress outlawed the domestic manufacture of the most popular incandescent lamps but has not at all even suggested the use of PowerwoRx e3?

  • Ron Natalie
    10 years ago

    We can stop talking about it now, the admins have removed the post.