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Pool wiring help

Posted by jake14mw (My Page) on
Tue, May 10, 05 at 16:24

Does anyone know of anywhere on the web that has an illustration of what is necessary for a pool wiring job? I picked up the regs from my town, but they just cover the basics. So far, what I think I need:

20 amp breaker for pump
15 amp breaker for convenience outlet
12/2 (or 12/3?) Romex for each to basement wall
Junction box
Attach each romex to groups of 12 guage THHN (for both?)in box
Drill through low on wall into 90 degree PVC (how does this attach to house?)
short run of PVC to 18" deep
another 90 degree PVC
long run of PVC in 18" trench to 4x4 pressure treated post 6' from pool
90 degree PVC
short run of PVC up to weather proof outlet box
outlet plug

Questions:
1) Am I missing anything in the above?
2) The town said that a timer is necessary. Is this just a regular old mechanical timer that plugs into that kind of plug, and then the pump plugs into it?
3) Can a cable TV wire be run in the same conduit?
4) How do I run the wire for the required convenience outlet straight past the pool pump plug and out to the deck? I was thinking that maybe using a "T" connector at the 4 x4 post instead of a 90 degree turn, but how does th fishing of wire work with that "T"?
5) Does it matter what size PVC is used?

I am thinking of running everything and having an electrician come out and connect things to make sure I did it right. Thanks for any help anyone can provide!


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Pool wiring help

There is no such thing as a wiring diagram for pools. This would be like saying there is a wiring diagram for cars. Pools can be very simple to very involved. I was doing one today as a matter of fact. Pump, heat pump heater, light in the filter return, receptacles on the deck, etc....
Sometimes it is as easy as just a pump receptacle.
Built in pools are another thing entirely.

1) Am I missing anything in the above?
How about #12 rubber cord to replace the (most likely) smaller cord on the pump motor. The receptacle for the pump, if between 5'-10' of the pool, MUST be twistlock. Also an "in-use" cover must be used.

2) The town said that a timer is necessary. Is this just a regular old mechanical timer that plugs into that kind of plug, and then the pump plugs into it?
There are special pool pump timers which have a twistlock receptacle on the bottom and a ~18" lead to plug in. Real convenient.

3) Can a cable TV wire be run in the same conduit?
ABSOLUTELY NOT!


4) How do I run the wire for the required convenience outlet straight past the pool pump plug and out to the deck? I was thinking that maybe using a "T" connector at the 4 x4 post instead of a 90 degree turn, but how does th fishing of wire work with that "T"?
How about a pvc box with two hubs on the bottom. One conduit in, the other out.


5) Does it matter what size PVC is used?
Whatever size is appropriate for the conductors inside.
For your purposes 3/4" would seem fine.


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RE: Pool wiring help

Also, don't forget the #8 solid copper bond wire from the pump to the pool frame, attached with an approved copper lug. Anything else metal close to the pool must be bonded as well.

I strongly suggest reading up on pool codes as this is a highly regulated area of the code. Art. 680 of the NEC is what you are looking for.


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RE: Pool wiring help

Thanks Peter, I understand everything that you said except for the part about replacing the cord on the motor. This is a brand new motor with a cord with a twist lock.


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RE: Pool wiring help

As long as the cord is #12 you are good to go.
I've only seen a few #12 cords factory installed. I guess they are wising up.
The one I did yesterday had a #14 cord. Why, I don't know. #12 has been code for years.


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RE: Pool wiring help

Do I need 12/2 or 12/3 Romex to attach to the THHN?


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RE: Pool wiring help

I would run two 12/2. One for the pump, one for the convenience receptacle.
You will need to use two GFI breakers this way. Or one and one GFI device. If you run 12/3 you would need a two pole GFCB. I would not share the neutral on these circuits. You'll want to keep them separate.
The pump requires a GFCB since it will be a twistlock receptacle.
Also, if you are using #12 there is NO reason to use a 15 amp breaker for the other receptacle circuit.


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RE: Pool wiring help

I talked to the town today, and one of the inspectors there suggested I use #10 THHN for the pool pump. He said that connected to 12/2 romex once inside would be good. Does this make sense?


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RE: Pool wiring help

No. If you use #10, use #10. Using half #12 is useless.
If the pump is big (1.5hp or more), and is wired for 110 volts, and the circuit is quite long (100'+) #10 is not a bad idea. In fact it may be required to lessen voltage drop.
How long is the circuit run?


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RE: Pool wiring help

It is 25' in the house, and then 55' out to the pool.


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RE: Pool wiring help

Due to it being 120 volts I assume the motor is no bigger than 1.5hp.
If so #12 is fine.


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RE: Pool wiring help

The motor is 1.5 hp. I would imagine that it will be only a few dollars more for #10, so why not do it?


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RE: Pool wiring help

OK, I'm most of the way through my project. I have a couple of questions.

1) The only wired timer I found at Home Depot was this huge industrial looking $45 box. Is this the right thing? It seems like overkill for what I'm doing, but I don't know.

2) I used 1" PVC for the wiring. The "L" part (sorry, don't remember the name for it)that comes out of the house and down into the ground, how is it attached to the house? There are no screw holes in it to screw to the house.

3) Is there any trick to attaching pull string to a group of wires so that it doesn't come off?

Thanks for everybody's help!


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RE: Pool wiring help

Hi,
I am just starting a similar project and found this thread helpful. I would like to add a few questions. Is there any advantage to runnning the pool pump motor off 220? My wiring run is about 130' from the breaker box for a 1hp pool motor (inground). I did not understand the previous comment about not using a 15 amp GFI breaker for the convenience plug- can you explain further. If my pool set up is beyond 10' from the pool wall can I use the standard pool plug without a twistloc and is it pointless to put a GFI outlet on a GFI breaker protected run? Thanks


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RE: Pool wiring help

"Is there any advantage to runnning the pool pump motor off 220? My wiring run is about 130' from the breaker box for a 1hp pool motor (inground). "
Yes, at this distance with that big of a motor you are better off at 220v. The amperage is basically one half that of 120 volts and voltage drop is significantly lower at 220v.


"I did not understand the previous comment about not using a 15 amp GFI breaker for the convenience plug- can you explain further."
My point was if he is using all #12 there is no reason to limit the breaker to 15 amps.
OK, one reason, if the load is known and it is enough of a load to cause excessive voltage drop. In this case you would want to upsize the wire.
For just a convenience receptacle at this distance it is not necessary.


"If my pool set up is beyond 10' from the pool wall can I use the standard pool plug without a twistloc and is it pointless to put a GFI outlet on a GFI breaker protected run?"
Yes, beyond 10' the pump does not require a twistlock receptacle. The cord on the pump is still limited to 3' though and a minimum of #12.
Yes, it is absolutely pointless to put a GFI device on a GFI breakered circuit.


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RE: Pool wiring help

While 12 seems to be the conductor of choice, even #10, consider the total run in feet. 25+55=80 feet ONE WAY! Now the return path, another 80 feet - total is 160 feet. Voltage drop no more than 3% in a 100 foot run. Using a voltage drop calculator - 120 volts @ a 20 Amps load yields a conductor sized at #8. What you run is your business but the numbers don't lie.


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RE: Pool wiring help

How is a 1hp pump 20 amps?? Voltage drop is not calculated using the circuit amperage.
This is a dedicated circuit with a known load. Don't we use this known load when figuring voltage drop?

As an example:
9 amps
@ 120 volts
for 80'
= 2.37% drop

The same thing for 12 amps is 3.17%. Tolerable in my opinion.


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RE: Pool wiring help

Hi,
I appreciate the response. I had been wavering on how i was going to wire the pump but clearly 220 is the way to go. The breaker costs substantially more but I want to get it right. I've been running the thing off a heavy duty cord from a GFI protected outlet for the last couple of years so this project is overdue. I think my set uo is going to be similar to the person who started this thread- one wire to the pool pump and an additional circuit for a convenience plug. One further question on the redundancy of putting a GFI outlet on a GFI protected circuit. I like the idea of the entire circuit being GFI protected, I also like the idea of having the reset conveniently at the plug if I do trip it, knowing full well that the set up is redundant is ther any reason not to set it up that way just for the convenience. Also is there such a thing as a 220 GFI outlet?
Thanks


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RE: Pool wiring help

"I also like the idea of having the reset conveniently at the plug if I do trip it,"
If the circuit is run correctly there is very little chance of nuisance tripping.
See next answer.

"Also is there such a thing as a 220 GFI outlet?"
No. So if you intend to run the motor 220 volt you have no choice but to use a GFCB.
I would definitely recommend 220v.


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RE: Pool wiring help

Nice sunny day yesterday so my son and I got started on the trench from the house to the pool. Nice rocky NH soil. Our goal is to get the conduit down to 18 inches. We are going to run 2 circuits. One 220 volt for the pool motor. One 120 volt for convenience outlets near the pool(mainly for the pool cleaner). We are planning on using GFI breakers in the panel for both circuits. Since the wire will handle a 20 Amp load but the motor only requires a 15 amp circuit should we use 15 or 20 amp breakers. Is ther any safety factor in running the lowest possible amperage in the GFCB? We also picked up a roll of direct burial wire (UF-B) but since the wire will be encase in the conduit for the entire run is this type of wife necessary or even a good idea? Since the 250' roll of 12-3 was more economical than buying a seperate roll of 12-2 for the convenience plugs I was planning on using the 12-3 and just not using the 2nd conductor, is this ok. any other pointers or suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Thanks to all.


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RE: Pool wiring help

The breaker doesn't matter. I would go with the 20 to better handle startup current. This is unless the motor instructions specifically state to use the 15.

DO NOT use the UF cable. At least for the pump motor receptacle. The ground for this circuit MUST be insulated and MUST be green when outside the house. You need to use separate THHN/THWN conductors.
You don't want to pull 12/3 UF into conduit anyway. It is a real P-I-A. It is also considered poor workmanship in the trades. The THWN conductors are wet rated and are specifically suited for pulling in conduit.

You can change over to NM when inside the house. You can pipe into a box inside and splice the conductors to the NM in this splice box.


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RE: Pool wiring help

Hi,
We got the trench finished yesterday. 70' of 18" minimun in typical nh soil. Good old fashioned work for me and my 11 year old. Today I'm returning the roll of 12-3 UF. As I understand the code I must use an insulated gound from the house to the pump switch/outlet. Since I'm running the pump on 220 that would require 1 red,1 black, 1 white and 1 green at least to the junction box in the house whre I can finnish the run to the panel with 12-3 NM. I have read that the pump circuit is supposed to be run to the panel without any breaks so does this allow for the junction box to go from the outside conductors to the NM? Also what is the current code? Is it 2002 or 2005? I am also running a circuit for convenience outlets, is 12-2 UF appropriate for this. It would seem simplest to run this all the way to the panel. Since digging the trench was a fair amount of work is there anything else that should go in the trench before we back fill? For the cost of another conduit we thought running an empty one next to the first might make sense in case we ever need to add something else down by the pool.
Thanks.


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RE: Pool wiring help

I have a few questions regarding the pool wiring.
I have a single 12-2B wire running in " grey plastic underground conduit.
The underground run is about 90 feet long, and is buried 18" deep.
This is as far as I am.
I have a pump and 1 accessory pool light that will be run at the pool.

#1) Do I need to run another wire for the accessory light?

The light will only be run at night, and the pump will only be run during the day.

In an above post, it stated that the circuit breaker needed to be a GFCB
I have a CH120GF circuit breaker, and I see that Cutler Hammer sells a GFCB120

#2) What is the difference between these two, and do I need to get the GFCB120
#2A) Should it be one pole or two pole? I am assuming 1 pole

The accessory lights Input/Output is 120V-60Hz-35VA/12V
#3) Do I need to run a separate circuit for the accessory light?

#4) If I need an additional circuit, can I just pull an additional wire through the " conduit.

#5) If I can pull another wire through, should I change the wire type that I am using


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RE: Pool wiring help

hi,
For anyone following this thread I'm happy to report that we're almost done..lol. We ended up running conduit all the way to the panel and pulled enough conductors for a 220 pool pump circuit and a 20 amp 110 volt convenience outlet circuit. My son really thought it was neat when we sucked the string through the conduit. We also threw another empty conduit into the trench in case we ever need to run anything that direction again, since digging the trench was so much work and the conduit so inexpensive it semed like a good idea. We now have to figure out how to identify each wire-we used 2 green,1 red,2black, and 2 white- is there a simple way of isolating each wire so I get the circuit right? I'm sure there is a simple way of doing this.


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RE: Pool wiring help

Ahhh, that feeling of success. We used a 12 volt light to isolate each wire and then proceded to hook up the 110 convenience outlet and then the 220 pump circuit. Great day to be outside in NH today. My work crew of nephews showed up and earned a few bucks filling in the ditch with my son.
It all works great. The GfI breakers ect. The only glitch I had was when I went to convert the cord on the pool pump to a 220 cord with a twist lock, I forgot that the existing xord only had 3 wires. I added a piece of #12 insulated wire taped along the outside of the cord until I can get a 4 wire cord. All in all I think it came out pretty good. thanks for all the free advice.


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RE: Pool wiring help

"I added a piece of #12 insulated wire taped along the outside of the cord until I can get a 4 wire cord."

Why oh why did you do that? A 220v motor needs NO neutral. The black & white are used as hot conductors along with the green ground.
What did you do with the white conductor in the motor and plug?


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RE: Pool wiring help

Thats what great about this forum, people who know lots more about this topic than I do. The existing cord had been made out of a heavy duty exstension cord. It had 3 insulated wires,white black and green. In its 110 volt configuration the green wire was conected to the ground lug on the external part of the motor(not sure if this was right) and the white and black went to the terminals as indicated on(inside) the motor. To set it up for 220 required relocating the internal leads as shown on the motor plate(internal motor wires). I connected the two "hot" wires to the indicated screws. Inside the motor the was another lug shown for the neutral which appeared to me to just be connected to the metal frame of the motor. I color coded the wire with my tape-red/black hot, white neutral and then the green ground I added to the lug on the motor. Which is where my "bonding" wire from the pool connects as well. The new 220 twist lock plug has 4 wire configuration, 2 hots in addition to a neutral and a ground, for a total of 4 wires. I know adding the green ground wire is not good workmanship but aside from that where have I gone wrong? Thanks.


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RE: Pool wiring help

Are we talking about aboveground pools or inground pools I just happen to build them for a living.. I always use #10 wire solid. For all of wire used on the pool. #8 bonding wire is also required... Lights require a separate bonding to the nitch in the wall as well. And yes 220 is the way to go for wireing a pump...but 110 will work fine for a aboveground system because most of those motors are uprated.


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RE: Pool wiring help

You have gone wrong by connecting a neutral to the case of the motor. This is a BIG no-no.
You DO NOT need a neutral, the connection in the motor IS a ground. This is the connection for the circuit ground. The connection on the outside of the motor is a BOND, not a ground.

You have the wrong plug, and the wrong receptacle. You need to replace both with the proper 3-wire parts.
Use the black and white for hot connections, the green goes to the little green screw in the wiring compartment.
The #8 external pool bond goes on the lug on the outside of the motor.

Please see the link below:

Here is a link that might be useful: Pool wiring


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RE: Pool wiring help

Hi,
Happy 4th to everyone. Thanks for the feedback. 1st to Muddy Water, this is a permanently istalled inground pool. I have used 12 guage thnn in a conduit from the breaker panel to the pool pump outlet. I know 10 guage would work but i think at 220 the 12 guage is well within tolerances for the motor size 1.5hp. I do have #8 bonding wirw that was installed when we built the pool that is attached to the pool walls,ladder ect that terminates in our pump shed to be attached to the bonding lug on the outside of the motor.
To Petey Racer, thanks but now I'm confused. I will reread the link you provided when I have a bit more time(going to a parade this AM. The 220 gfci has connections for the neatral and the two hots. In addition i ran an insulated green ground wire from the panel for a total of 4 wires. I ran this bundle throught the conduit(and a single pole switch on one of the hot leads) through the conduit to a 4 prong twist lock plug. I did not see a 3 wire twist lock plug at my supply house and I assumed since I was running 4 wires that each wire needed its apropriate connnection. I'm not sure what the neutral and ground do for each other since they all terminate on the same bus bars in my panel.
If you only use the two hots and the insulated ground what do you do with the neatral wire that starts on the GFCI?

Thanks


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RE: Pool wiring help

For a 220 connection in my area for a pump. There a three wires 2 blacks for hot connections 1 ground connected to the terminal ground in the bell houseing of the motor. 1 #8 bonding wire that goes into the bonding lug on the out side of the motor case...thats it.. There is not a requirement for a GFCI for a pump...only for the pool lights in or outside the pool or outlets. The GFCI neutral goes to the neutral bar in the panel.


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RE: Pool wiring help

Hi,
I may have misinterpeted what I have read but as I understood the code there was a requirement for a seperate insulated ground. I am not sure if the GFCI breaker is a code requirement or not-the plug connection is about 10' from the pool but I'm more comfortable having it wired through a GFCI breaker. The GFCI breaker had 3 connections, two were marked load, the third neutral so thats what I did. This gives me a 4 wire connection. What is wrong with a 4 wire set up that includes both a neutral wire and a ground? My recollection is that my new dryer was wired that way-4 way connection as opposed to the older 3 way. All the feedback is appreciated and I will be doing more reading on this topic.


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RE: Pool wiring help

Butch,
Just regarding the 220V GFCI and your last post;
A 220 volt motor served from a GFCI will not need the neutral wire, however the neutral (white ) wire from the GFCI must be terminated to the neutral buss. and if ANY other 110 appliance is on the same 220 circuit needs the neutral (groundING) wire.
Example: A hot tub that has 220v pumps and is served by a 220v GFCI will need the added neutral for the other 110V circuits such as controls, circulating pump and lights.
Same with a dryer or an electric range. The burners (heating element) work off the 220 (two hots) but it needs 110 for the clock, controls and such. But these aapliances are not typically served by way of a GFCI.

SOOO. for a 220V GFCI serving ONLY the 220V motor, disregard the white (common) wire and just use the two hots and the ground wires.

Bonding is a seperate issue alltogether.
Mark


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RE: Pool wiring help

Muddy, just to clarify, the ONLY time you can omit the GFI for a pool pump is when it is hard wired. If it is served by any type of receptacle it MUST be GFI protected.
I assume you hard wire your pumps also since you say two blacks and a ground. This is only possible when you hard wire with liquidtite flex. Butch is using cord so he will use the black and white as hots and the green ground.

Inspectors Marks post is correct as I stated. You DO NOT need a neutral wire for the pump circuit, just two hots and a ground. The white wire coming out of the GFI breaker MUST be terminated on the neutral bar, THAT'S IT. Nothing else nees to be done with it.


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RE: Pool wiring help

Peter you are right...Butch rather than useing a plug for a disconnect, have you thought about useing a timer with the outlet mounted below or hard wire the pump to the timer. I just don't like the idea of something pulling 14-16 amps useing a plug for disconnect..And adding a switch in the circuit in my experience will give you trouble later. A timer on the other hand will let you control how long your pump runs each day and give you a disconnect as well. You can also buy them temp controlled for freeze protection. Just a idea I know you would have to backup somewhat to do this....

Here is a link that might be useful: intermatic timers


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RE: Pool wiring help

Hi,
Thanks for the posts. I simply assumed that if 110 used a hot, a neatral, and a ground that running 220 would involve one additional hot. It goes against what I thought I knew to run the circuit without a neutral but thats why I come here. To get this project right should be an easy fix-I just need to ignore the neatral wire I ran, connect the green insulated ground to the ground terminal inside the motor and connect the GFCB's neautral connection to the bus bar. I can also go to a three prong twist lock plug and nonnection. Since the GFCB white pig tail is already connected to the bus bar is this necessary? An electrician I work with indicated he beleived nothing needed to be connected to the neatral lug on the GFCB which leads me to wonder then why have it? We may add a timer in the future but for now this was just to get of the extension cord we had been using. My wife(who does the pool maint) wanted a switch at the pump to make it easy for her when she is adding chlorine to the chlorinator or backwashing. I preferred to go with the cord just for the convenience of being able to uplug the unit if I needed to work on it or for when it needs to be replaced. With the cord I can quickly and easily take the unit out and bring it to my workbench. I should add that I made the mistake of storing the unit near some chlorine last winter and the oxidation was amazing. The rotor was seized and I'm sure I shortened the life span of the motor-hence my anticipation of having to change it out. I'm still having trouble adjusting to the idea that my 220 circuit has the same number of wires as my 110. Can anyone easily explain the electrical theiry behind this in a way a non-electrician can understand?

Thanks


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RE: Pool wiring help

Yes, in a straight 220 volt circuit the energy cycles from line to line. Two hots and a ground.
In a 120 circuit it cycles from line to neutral. One hot, one neutral and a ground.
This is why a load, such as a motor, will draw half the amperage at 220 than it would if wired 120v.
Then there are circuits which are 120/240v, such as a dryer. These circuits have mainly 220 volt loads, with smaller 120 volt loads, such as a light. They require two hots, neutral and ground.

As for the GFCB, the breaker neutral is connected to the bar so it can refrence ground. The breaker then senses any imbalance between hot to hot, and hot to neutral. In the case if your straight 220 motor there will only be hot to hot amperage.
Any amperage other than those parameters means there is a fault to ground and the braker will open.
I'm sure someone else can explain it a bit clearer but that is my take one it.


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RE: Pool wiring help

This is why a load, such as a motor, will draw half the amperage at 220 than it would if wired 120v.

Careful about saying it that way. I know what you mean - for a given level of power consumption, the current is halved when the voltage is doubled. But when you say it this way it can confuse folks. (And then they post here!)

If you have a dual-voltage (120/240 volt) motor, it will use half the current at the higher voltage (when strapped for that voltage), all other things being equal. Same with a heating device or other appliance which is set up for dual voltage, when properly configured. Same with a laptop power supply designed to be used from 100 to 250 volts.

Note that I say this applies only to dual voltage or multi voltage devices. If you connect a 120 volt (only) device to a 240 volt line, without making any other changes in the device, in most cases it will draw TWICE the current it drew at 120 volts. Most likely it will be destroyed in short order.


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RE: Pool wiring help

Yes, I do agree. But he said to explain it so a non-electrician would understand. I guess I went too general in my explanation.
You are correct, DO NOT ever wire a 120 device at 220, and vice-versa, unless it is designed to be.


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RE: Pool wiring help

" I'm still having trouble adjusting to the idea that my 220 circuit has the same number of wires as my 110. Can anyone easily explain the electrical theiry behind this in a way a non-electrician can understand?
Thanks"

Butch,
In simple e-101
Electricity is the flow of electrons, in DC current the flow of electrons is allways in the same direction THUS a + (POS) and a - (NEG) terminal required to make a circuit.

In A/C the POS and NEG take turns so to say, creating a current of electrons that changes directins many times per second.

I wont touch three phase for this lesson.

On a single phase service (such as most all residential services) the Voltage supplied to the house is in the form of two HOT legs and a neutral/ground (at this point they are the same) the 220 voltage comming in to the service panel is split in half by way of the neutral bus creating two 110 Busses (one for each hot) compared to neutral.
The ground leg is primarily for safety and un-balanced loads.

With that you need a hot (either one) and a neutral to make 110V.
Thus a hot, neutral and a groung. Three wires

For 220 you just take the two hots (remember it came in the house that way and we split it nalf with the neutral?)
And we add the ground for safety and erroneous left over electrons can return to the planet to be excited again.

Hope this helps
Mark


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RE: Pool wiring help

Hi,
Thanks for the explanations. I do know how to spell theory, I just don't know how to type quickly and accurately at the same time. Since I don't plan to make my living as an electrician its less important that I understand it, as compared to just doing it properly and safely. Tonght I went to my favorite Home Depot to get the three wire plug and connector. I know I could just disconect the neutral from the 4 wire outlet and conector but I'm a nit pic about details like that and want it to be as close to what a pro would have done as i am capable. So heres my new question. When I grabbed the plug off the shelf i noticed that not all the plugs matched the outlets ie some of the outlets had the wide tab to the right of the grounf slot while others had it to the left(looking at them straight on with the ground slot up). I then realized I need to get the plug that corresponded to the outlet. Now I'm curious why there made two differant ways and if there is any significance to that. These are a 20 amp locking plug and a 20 amp locking outlet.
Best regards,
Butch


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RE: Pool wiring help

Hi,

I changed out the plug and outlet todday. I used the three wire twist lock type. 2 hot wires and the ground at the pump. At the panel I disconected the neautral wire I had run to the neutral connection between the two hot leads. I left the white pigtail wire connected to the buus bar. Initially (as I thought I was supposed to) I ran a wire from the neatral lug of the gfcb to the bus bar but that caused the breaker to trip so I removed it. So npw I'm left with the two hots connected to the lugs on either side of the empty neautral lug and the white pig tail connected to the bus bar. The breaker appears to operate correctly in this configuration. I just don't understand why they build the GFCB with a lug for the neautral if its not necessary?
Thanks for any feedback.


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RE: Pool wiring help

Sometimes it is necessary. A multi-wire circuit for instance.


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RE: Pool wiring help

Question? I am adding a subpanel to feed a new pool setup. I have 2 motors, one for the main circ. and one for the polaris cleaner. In the sub-panel 20 dp gfci dedicated breakers for each. I am running #10 thhn blk,red,green for the 240 pumps setup. The neutral and ground are on the same bar in the main panel, but I understand for the 240 pump set up I do not need a neutral, where in the subpanel do I hook up the green ground, do I hook it to the netrual bar, or do I hook it to the ground bar? At what point does the neutral and ground become diff.

thanks.


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RE: Pool wiring help

Muddy_Water wrote:

"Peter you are right...Butch rather than using a plug for a disconnect, have you thought about useing a timer with the outlet mounted below or hard wire the pump to the timer. I just don't like the idea of something pulling 14-16 amps useing a plug for disconnect..And adding a switch in the circuit in my experience will give you trouble later. A timer on the other hand will let you control how long your pump runs each day and give you a disconnect as well. You can also buy them temp controlled for freeze protection. Just a idea I know you would have to backup somewhat to do this.... "

That seems like the easiest method, and looks like the option I will use.

To make sure I have this clear for a 220v 1HP 2 speed installation 15'+ from inground pool located in Florida (no freeze, runs year round):

Add a normal (Not GFIC) 220v 20amp breaker for pump in empty slot.
Run 12/2 Romex from panel to junction box 20' indoors. Then 12 gauge, 3 wire, THHN into 18" underground 3/4" PVC to pool equip shed about 40' away. Attach this to 220v timer mounted on 4x4, and timer to pump. No outlets in shed, and pump is hardwired in. Timer will be used as disconnect for light maintainance like basket cleaning. (convenience outlet will be off patio, approx 15' from water and 20' from shed, on another curcuit). No GFIC needed.

Look correct?

Thanks,
Rob


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RE: Pool wiring help

I don't think the timer will pass as a means of disconnect. I would still add a switch or disconnect somewhere close to the pump.
Everything else sounds fine.


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RE: 220v Pool wiring help

Edit to above.
No GFIC needed was in reference to pump only.

Just checked my timer, and it is an Intermatic T104 with metal case. It is not a waterproof case, but does not say Indoor use only. Since it will be in a small enclosed shed, do you think it will be allowed?

Also, since this will not have a sub panel, is it possible to simply use 12/2 Romex inside the PVC, or is THHN a requirement either way?

Thanks.


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RE: Pool wiring help

Thanks for the reply Petey_Racer.

If I bring timer into garage, where it was intended, then install switch on 4x4, will GFIC still not be required?


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RE: Pool wiring help

"Also, since this will not have a sub panel, is it possible to simply use 12/2 Romex inside the PVC, or is THHN a requirement either way?"
No NM at all outside the house where the pump is concerned. The ground MUST be insulated, so: THWN.


"If I bring timer into garage, where it was intended, then install switch on 4x4, will GFIC still not be required?"
The no-GFI exception is in regards to the pump being hard wired, as opposed to plug in. It has nothing to do with a timer or any switching device.


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RE: Pool wiring help

Thanks Petey_Racer, that was how I originally expected to do it, but thought that method required DP 220v GFIC breaker, so you saved me some cash with your answer. Will DP switch need to be a special type (or in a special case/box) when placed in equip shed for this purpose?

Last question on this topic. (hopefully)
The only ground run from the home is going inside the pump motor for it's 220v.
The #8 bonding wire is attached to lug on pump motor case, and to all metal around pool.
Does the bonding wire require it's own grounding rod (probably in equip shed)? Or is it connected to main home ground from inside the motor automatically, so it only needs to be attached to motor housing, and no additional ground rod required? Or, does an additional ground wire need to be run from home, through PVC, to pump housing which grounds the bonding wire? I thought you only want one grounding rod in any home?

Thanks for your help.


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RE: Pool wiring help

The pump is grounded with the circuit conductors.
The bond is NOT a ground. The best way to describe this is to quote the commentary from the NEC Handbook:

It is important to understand the difference between the terms bonding and grounding as they apply to Article 680. As defined in Article 100, bonding is ``the permanent joining of metallic parts to form an electrically conductive path that ensures electrical continuity and the capacity to conduct safely any current likely to be imposed.'' As described in 680.26(A), the function of equipotential bonding differs from the function of bonding to meet the requirements of Article 250 in that providing a path for ground fault current is not the function of the equipotential bonding grid and associated bonding conductors.
Creating an electrically safe environment in and around permanently installed swimming pools requires the installation of a bonding system with the sole function of establishing equal electrical potential (voltage) in the vicinity of the swimming pool. A person who is immersed in a pool or who is dripping wet, has a large amount of exposed skin, and is lying or walking on a concrete deck is extremely susceptible to any differences in electrical potential that may be present in the pool area.
The primary purpose of bonding in and around swimming pools is to ensure that voltage gradients in the pool area are not present. The fine print note explains that the 8 AWG conductor's only function is equipotential bonding to eliminate the voltage gradient in the pool area.
The reason for connecting metal parts (ladders, handrails, water-circulating equipment, forming shells, diving boards, etc.) to a common bonding grid [pool reinforcing steel, pool metal wall, or an alternative bonding grid as described in 680.26(C)(3)] is to ensure that all such metal parts are at the same electrical potential. The grid reduces possible injurious or disabling shock hazards created by stray currents in the ground or piping connected to the swimming pool. Stray currents can also exist in nonmetallic piping because of the low resistivity of chlorinated water.


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RE: Pool wiring help

I know that electrical conduit must run no closer to a pool than 5 feet. How about the pool light wiring? Can that be run closer since it obviously ends up at the edge? I don't see that specifically listed in the code.

I'm putting in a vinyl lined pool and a trench exists along the side of the pool but it is 3' wide maximum. One local electrician said I could use it (but he also said I could use the same trench for the line from the main panel in the house to the sub-panel in the shed, I did not).

Thanks


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RE: Pool wiring help

If it is pool related there is no 5' rule:

"680.10 Underground Wiring Location
Underground wiring shall not be permitted under the pool or within the area extending 1.5 m (5 ft) horizontally from the inside wall of the pool unless this wiring is necessary to supply pool equipment permitted by this article. Where space limitations prevent wiring from being routed a distance 1.5 m (5 ft) or more from the pool, such wiring shall be permitted where installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, or a nonmetallic raceway system. All metal conduit shall be corrosion resistant and suitable for the location. "


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RE: Pool wiring help

Got it, so must the conduit to the subpanel be outside 5' even if it is pool related?

Thanks.


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RE: Pool wiring help

I would say yes. The panel may be pool related, but not exclusively.
I would say this is an AHJ (inspector) call.


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RE: Pool wiring help

OK wiring goo-rus. Here's one for you.

Installed a subpanel w/ 30A. disconnect for pool. Pool co. installed 2 new jazz lights during building process. The lights have a filter motor & the bulb. When I energize the filter motor on either light, they work fine. When I turn on the light, the GFI breaker @ the disconnect trips. Tried one light at a time w/o the filter motor....GFI trips. Tried wiring direct to the lights w/ no switch....GFI trips. (if I disconnect the GFI pigtail from the neutral bar, the lights work fine.)

Any thoughts????? Ray


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RE: Pool wiring help

It sounds like they did not wire the lights correct. Did they test them before they left??
I would say there is a neutral and ground connected or touching somewhere downstream of the GFCB.
Where are the grounds and neutrals from the light connected?
Are the grounds and neutrals isolated in the sub-panel?


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RE: Pool wiring help

Question about lighting, ground and bonding (inground vinyl with polystyrene walls, in Florida) that has me confused.

From link above per codes:
""Special Notes" THAT THE DWELLING ELECTRICAL GROUNDING SYSTEM MUST NOT BE CONNECTED TO THE BONDING GRID."

Our Hayward plastic light niche SP0607U has a combo bonding/grounding connector. Bond wire attaches to outside lug and then to other pool metal, and ends at pump. Other end of lug is inside niche, and ground wire is attached when using PVC conduit, and this is run to electrical box. So it appears as though this combo lug will ground bond to homes electrical..??..??

Also on same subject. Light used is 12v 300w. This goes to Intermatic 110v/12v transformer, then to 110v. Since it is a transformer, manual states it has protection built in, and only Canada requires GFIC. Is this still correct, or do I need to run this light to a GFCI breaker?

If GFIC is always required for light, can I also use this GFIC breaker protected curcuit for required 110v outlet near pool, using standard outlet (in proper box)?

Thanks!


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RE: Pool wiring help

The intent is that the bond wires do not go to the system grounding electrode. As confusing as it seems, they are both bonds. The outside is part of the bonding grid. This is to keep all metal parts on the same ground plane and eliminate voltage potential.
The inside wire is to bond around the PVC pipe, from the niche to the deck box.

This light requires no GFI protection. In any case you cannot use the general receptacle circuit. Rules for pool lights are very strict. Please do some research before continuing this.
Here is a small part and I will give you a link below to more:

" 680.23(F) Branch-Circuit Wiring
(1) Wiring Methods. Branch-circuit wiring on the supply side of enclosures and junction boxes connected to conduits run to wet-niche and no-niche luminaires (fixtures), and the field wiring compartments of dry-niche luminaires (fixtures), shall be installed using rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit, or rigid nonmetallic conduit. Where installed on buildings, electrical metallic tubing shall be permitted, and where installed within buildings, electrical nonmetallic tubing, Type MC cable, or electrical metallic tubing shall be permitted.

Exception: Where connecting to transformers for pool lights, liquidtight flexible metal conduit or liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit shall be permitted. The length shall not exceed 1.8 m (6 ft) for any one length or exceed 3.0 m (10 ft) in total length used. Liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit, Type B (LFNC-B), shall be permitted in lengths longer than 1.8 m (6 ft).

Here is a link that might be useful: In-ground pools


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RE: Pool wiring help

I have the same type Hayward Niche described above, do I HAVE to connect the #8 Bond to the deck box? I tried but it was tought trying to pull both the light wire and the #8 through 3/4" pvc. I also don't see why it would need to be run to the box.

This is a vinyl liner pool so I don't have the typical bonding grid. How do I run the #8 wire from the pool to the pump? do I need conduit or just burry it with the water pipes, etc.? The wire is obviously exposed elsewhere.


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RE: Pool wiring help

Yes, you HAVE to run the #8 inside the 3/4" PVC. If you can't understand why then you really need to read up on the subject. This is a VERY important step. You also need to cover the lug connection inside the forming shell with the spacial potting compound. This is also an important step.

I don't care if the pool has a vinyl liner, you MUST(!!!) have a bonding grid. Again, read up as to why this is very important.
Is there any steel used in the walls or frame?
Is there a metal forming shell for the light?
Is there a metal ladder? Handrail? Coping?
All this MUST be bonded. And the lugs are very specific for the purpose as well.
. .
. .
. .
All this, and basically this whole thread, is why I feel very strongly that pools are NOT a diy job. There is too much at stake. Folks pay thousands to have a pools professionally installed rather than doing it themselves, but they scoff at another thousand (more or less) to have it wired professionally. For some strange reason they put less importance on the fact that they are mixing water and electric. This boggles my mind.


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RE: Pool wiring help

There is a bonding grid, it just is not TYPICAL one as there is no structural steel in the pool. The bond consists of an aluminum coping which runs around the top edge of the pool. The ladder, step railing, etc. are also included.

I can read and figure out (with the help of generous people like yourself) what to do. But I know that there is a lot at stake and I want to be sure I get it right. These questions I have asked are details that I have not found here or elsewhere.

I built the entire pool myself and would have had a "pro" do the electrical but:

1. The estimates I got were in the 2-3 thousand range for a pool that should cost less than a concrete pool.

2. They did not seem to know what was or was not involved with this type of pool and so they padded their price to be safe.

So I will ask you what the is reason for running the bond wire to the light box? The niche instructions even show this as "optional". The light is already connected to the bond.

And my other question is: Does the bond wire have to be run in conduit from the pool to the pump? If so how does the conduit end/begin since there is nothing to connect it to? (at either end)

Thanks


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RE: Pool wiring help

Thanks for all your help and input Petey_Racer. It is appreciated.

First, the reason why I'm doing it myself, then a question.

So far I have had 3 electrician friends come to my home and discuss the electrical, and have 3 different answers to my questions. Seems there is a big gap between a Pro and someone that knows how to do it correctly. This is common for all aspects of pool construction.

Some fun examples from the electrical "Pro's" that came by.
Prior to this thread, I explained to one that I planned on using a 220v GFCI breaker for the pump motor, and the expert that has been doing home wiring for 10 years said there is no such thing as a 220v GFCI breaker, "they only come in 110v breakers". A week later I saw him again, and he said "Oops", I was correct. (I have seen similar posts in forums from Pro's that also didn't know those existed). Same guy also wanted $1000 to change out service panel. I later did it myself for $160, then had the "Pro's" look at it, and they said it was done correctly. None said I needed a permit (I think all 3 were wrong, but what do I know as I'm only an electronics tech).

Another "Pro" that has been wiring pools for 10+ years kept telling me we would run THHN underground from home to equip pad, yet I kept correcting him by saying THWN. I finally came right out and said he will use THWN, right?, and the Pro responded back with, No, he will use THHN, not THWN.

Back to question.
The insulated #8 from inside the niche runs through PVC to metal transformer box. Is this connected to the box, or to the ground circuit in the box (are they isolated in the box)? 110v goes to this box from home. Is this 110v circuit's ground also attached to the transformer box? If so, then you have technically attached the homes ground electrode to the inside of the light niche, and the inside of the light niche is attached to the outside of the light niche through it's combo lug, which then means entire bond is connected to home ground, which is prohibited.

Also, two out of three Pro's stated like this thread has, that light requires no GFI protection, yet every code and instruction manual I've found said light must be on GFCI protected circuit. (One of the three pro's that came by said light needs to be on GFCI breaker.)

Now, is it better to ask questions like this in forums before a "pro" or homeowner does the job? I think very much so. Chances are we will get much better advice here, because if a pro posts info that may not be 100% correct, another pro will (should) respond, and eventually the non-pro (those of us trying to learn) will see the correct way. That can't happen any other way like it does in forums.

Thanks again for your help.
Links are a great guide too, but since the links for inground are from 1999, I wonder how accurate they are for some parts of the country now in 2005?


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RE: Pool wiring help (pro's)

Forgot to add.
Doing it yourself is not about being cheap..

I can pay anybody to do a bad job, or do the job wrong, and then I am not too happy. Heck, I can do the job bad or wrong just as well as anybody. But, I have an advantage. Since I do not do this for a living, I do not have another client waiting for me to hurry up and get to. I can take my sweet time, study all the options, ask all the questions, and hopefully, do it as good or better than any pro, simply because I have the time.

The pro I mentioned above that has been doing pool wiring for 10+ years, offered to help me with the wiring as a side cash job, for less than he normally charges, and would even supply free parts that he had extra laying around. It would have cost me less than $200 total to go that route, yet because of the THHN not THWN remark he made, I will keep the $200 and continue to do it myself. Little things like this are why DIY works for many.


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RE: Pool wiring help

RobsTV -- Thanks for the follow-up,

Hydra pool? That is what I'm putting in.

How did you run your bond wire from the pool to the pump?

My niche/bonding question...

I don't have a metal transformer box. Just a standard pvc junction box designed for pool lights found here:

http://www.cheappoolproducts.com/Swimming~Pool~Light~Accessories_54_1435~product.html

I have been looking but I still can't find out why this pvc box needs to be connected to the bond grid.

Thanks to all, this is a great forum. I could not have gotten as far as I did without it.

I hope I did not scare Peter_Racer away, he has so much to give to us who would like to learn.


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RE: Pool wiring help

Is this why?

"Stray currents can also exist in nonmetallic piping because of the low resistivity of chlorinated water."


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RE: Pool wiring help

Hydra here as well.

From what I gather (please correct as needed).
#8 "Bare" copper wire from outside lug on light niche to metal bracket that will hold deep end ladder, to metal bracket that will hold step rail, to lug on outside of pump motor. If you have other metal within 5' of inside pool wall that is 4" or greater, it too must be connected to this bond grid. (see link above for other rules). Must be one continuous wire with no breaks. It is not ran in PVC, and is at least 18" under ground inside pool trench.

Light in use here is 12v 300watt, so 110v/12v transformer required. Because it has transformer and is 12v, no GFCI breaker needed (still confused on contradictions). Other types of lights require GFCI. Pump and light must run on there own dedicated circuit (can not share or branch off in most cases).

Niche is plastic, and will be using PVC, so inside the light niche you must connect an "insulated" #8 wire to designated lug, (after attaching wire to lug, lug must also be covered in a proper potting material per your light niche install manual). This insulated #8 wire runs from inside niche, inside PVC, to junction box (or transformer). Then?.? Is this part or Bond "ground" not bond grid?

Above is not done yet here. Vermiculite is on back order (still might not get it from place ordered), so work is going slow. Will do the wiring this week though.


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RE: Pool wiring help (light switch)

Trying to find easiest route to run wires from Service Panel to pool light transformer, while still having an easy to access light switch.

Is it possible to use an X10 switch for pool light (mounted indoors on 110v side)? This would allow placement of switch in a location that makes wire run easy, yet would still allow light control remotely from any location.

I know X10 has issues with circuits that have combo ceiling "fan" with light, and since my install used a 110v to 12v transformer, was wondering if that too would cause issues? Not a motor like a fan has, but not a normal connection either.

Thanks.


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RE: Pool wiring help

I'm trying to get something straight on the Nobel Process for making up nitroglycerin. Do I add the nitric acid before the sulfuric acid, or after the sulfuric acid?


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RE: Pool wiring help

SolarPowered,

See, that's what I'm talking about that makes these forums great!

Instead of doing something stupid, you do the right thing, and ask a question.

A dumb or off topic reply would not help you, as it seems you are determined to do your project anyhow.

Unfortunately, your question is in the wrong forum. Do a search for a forum better suited to your remarks, and I'm sure you will be making explosives correctly in no time. (Unless that is illegal, in which case it does not belong in forums like these).

Good Luck!

(Note. Be careful of advice that seems to come from pro's. Many times, even some Pro's screw up (yep, some are human), and they have no clue what you are talking about (not referring to anyone in this thread), so instead of helping you, they will instead attempt to get out of looking stupid by switching the discussion to other topics, or they may just go to the good old blanket statement, "Don't do it because you are not qualified". You intend on doing it no matter what, so stick with it and you will succeed.)


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RE: Pool wiring help

I don't know if you're post is intended to be sacastic. Just to clear up my intent, my post is indeed posted to the correct forum, to the correct thread, and intended to be dripping with irony that even Petey will recognize. ;) My point is that there are some things that are not DIY activites. Brain surgery. Mixing nitroglycerin. Wiring swimming pools. You've been warned, and warned again, so there's not much more that anyone here can say. I hope you don't end up with someone's death on your conscience.


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RE: Pool wiring help

From the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) and the American Red Cross:

"There have been 60 deaths and nearly 50 serious shocks reported over the past 13 years involving electrical hazards in and around swimming pools."

So please don't make this out to be something it is not.
Far more people die from eating bad food each year. Can wiring a pool incorrectly be dangerous? Of Course. Very!!! But at the same time, it is not like you need to understand 100's of parts to make it work right. For the task at hand, less than a dozen or so special needs (beyond basic changing an outlet type stuff) must be understood. Electrical wiring is fairly basic stuff, and is allowed by all local governments to be done by the homeowner. Wiring a car stereo is more complex (and safer) than wiring a pool.

All I am saying is, we are doing the job the "Right Way", and in order to do it correctly, whether by homeowner or by a Professional, we have some questions that have us concerned that many Pro's and/or documents seem confused about. The answer you give is not what anyone should take as final, but just as another tool to compare to other answers already found.

While it must feel great to try to wield power over others by saying what they can and can not do, in reality, you do not know what they can and can not do. Many deal with high voltage electrical inches from there face everyday, and even repair 100's of parts down to component level. Asking questions is a good thing. Help or go away.


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RE: Pool wiring help

Robs, While I do agree with the fist part of your last post, I strongly disagree with the latter.
You DO need to know 100's of parts of the code to wire a pool correctly and safely.


I also must say. This line:
"Wiring a car stereo is more complex (and safer) than wiring a pool."
..scares me if it is not sarcastic. You are putting WAY too little importance on knowing what you are doing and WHY!


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RE: Pool wiring help

Solar: It's three parts sulfuric added to one part cold nitric. Than slowly add ..........


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RE: Pool wiring help

Greetings all
I have searched online and found this thread
lots of the info is useful
#1 I was told to just drill a hole in the back of the breaker box to get wire from the outside to a new breaker for the pool punp.
#2 I had to replace my old pump and it showed up with one of those bonding lugs so do I now have to connect that to the pool frame?


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RE: Pool wiring help

I am completely a loss here. I am trying to hook up 3 separate pool pumps to an intermatic pe15300f timer that permits three separate circuits. The manual says this is SPST and my electrician says it needs to be DPDT. It seems odd since this unit is designed to run 3 separate 200 pool pumps. Am I missing something and is there a way around the rpoblem without having to buy a different equivalent timer ? If I need to do that ..any suggestions ?


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RE: Pool wiring help

Last post is a duplicate. Answers already given in another thread.


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RE: Pool wiring help

Hope this thread is still going. Starting an above ground pool wiring job and can't seem to find the info I need. Have a 1 hp pump (13.8amps) and a 2 amp heater. Will run 2 lines of 12-2 from a 30 amp breaker, 28 ft to outer wall of house, drill hole to outside and terminate both in a waterproof jbox. From there, run 3 wire 12 ga. thwn in sch40pvc 60 ft to pump/heater and terminate on 4x4 post 5 ft from pool and install 2 twist receptacles, 1 for pump and 1 for heater. What should I use to terminate at post before wiring to both recepticles? A run of outside rated cable(grey romex), will start at jbox and run along outside of pvc and somehow terminate at post for future use when I build a deck someday. I will then run 100 ft of underground cable from this junction box to a shed for 3 lights and 1 outlet only. What should I use to terminate this underground wire run at same post 5 ft from pool. And here is my big question. I want to be able to turn the heater and pump on and off at an elevated deck just outside a french door approxinately 22ft from pool and 51 ft from both devices. How do I wire the 12 ga thwn for 2 switches here? I do have a 60 amp 220 available. Should I use such a big circuit for everything instead of a 110, 30 amp. Or would 2, 30amp 110 be better. Thanks.


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RE: Pool wiring help

Your specs for the pump and heater seem out of whack. A 120V 1hp pump should draw only 7A and an electric heater should draw way more than 2A. Can you clarify the volt and current ratings for both appliances.

You can't run 12 ga wire off a 30A breaker, a 20A breaker is max for #12 wire.


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RE: Pool wiring help

The Hayward pump is 1hp, 115 vols, 60hz, 3450rpms and the 13.8 amps I referenced is listed as the maximum load so I should plan for that. The heater is gas so the 2 amps is only for the igniter. The 30A breaker came into play because I thought I could just get away with splitting up the 220 circuit I have available that has 2, 30A breakers.


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RE: Pool wiring help

As Bigbird said, you cannot protect #12 wire with a 30A breaker for receptacle and lighting circuits.

I know offering opinions are frowned upon here, but in my opinion, based on your questions, you are in WAY over your head in trying to wire for a pool. There are very specific rules to follow and trying to get that information from a DIY forum is ill advised. Do yourself anf your family a favor and hire this out to an electrician experienced in pool wiring.


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RE: Pool wiring help

I'm replacing the pool motor, and never wired up the 2 speed aspect of my motor, which I now intend to do oen way or the other. So, I have the following, hopefully, simple questions: 1. Since this Emerson motor EB-982 is designed to have one of the Line voltage 220s, L1, on EITHER the high speed, OR the low speed lugs in the motor,
I'm assuming that:
a. you can't connect that L1 220 line to BOTH high and low lugs at the same time -- right?
b. You CAN, while the motor is spinning in one of the two speeds, SWITCH the L1 from low to high, or high to low, without stopping the motor, using some switch/ relay
c. I cannot leave power applied to the L2 side of the motor if L1 is not connected to the high or low speed lugs

On the timeer, I wanted to see if I could use what I have, and add as little hardware as possible. Unfortunately, Intermatic 104s don't come with a complete schematic for us electronics guys. What I couldn't find on anyone's site, or on the company's website, how ALL the switches are wired to the lugs! For instance, Lug "A" --- WHAT is IT wired to?? the only reference I find is this: " "277/480 VOLT CONNECT MOTOR LEADS TO TERMINALS "A" AND 1 AND SUPPLY NEUTRAL TO TERMINAL "A" " I know how the other lugs are wired to which switches, because it is shown. But some parts of many devices must be deemed to be "common knowledge" to electricians, NOT showing how some parts are wired into the whole system, leaving us electronics guys that can fix TVs and computer, totally in the dark!! Anyway, ignore my rant, but this one bugs me --- I know I can either take it apart or test it with an ohm meter to figure it out. But it sure seems that it should be clear what that lug goes to. I'd hate to guess and be wrong about what it does go to.

Here is a link that might be useful: Intermatic 104 wiring diagram


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RE: Pool wiring help

Since 220v needs 2 hots and a ground and 110v needs 1 hot, 1 neutral and 1 ground can I use a single ground to connect both the 220v and 110v thus running 5 wires?


 o Post a Follow-Up

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