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gfci

Posted by karl_gerbschmidt (My Page) on
Tue, May 12, 09 at 13:46

I have a gfci outlet that is constantly in need of resetting whether it is in use or not. I will hear it pop when nothing is plugged into the outlet. When I have a boombox plugged in, it works for a while then, it will pop. WHn I hook up a larer appliance, it will immediately pop and needs to be reset. I have a 15A circuit breaker in my breaker box going to this outlet, and the gfci outlet state it is 20A. Will this cause the problem? Any ideas on what is going on? Thanks.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: gfci

Is this outlet at the end of a run, or are other outlet/lights etc after it?


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RE: gfci

I don't think your problem is related in any way to the fact that a 15A circuit has a 20A GFCI on it.

Let's start with idea that GFCIs "pop" when they detect a ground fault--that's what they're designed to do. While it's possible, of course, that the GFCI has gone bad, it's much more likely that you actually DO have a weak or intermittant ground fault somewhere.

[So let's not begin by rushing out and buying a new receptacle when it may not be needed at all. Save that option for last.]

The fault--an unintended electrical path to ground--could be in or around the wiring to the GFCI itself or it could be in the wiring or outlets "downstream" of the GFCI. Do you know if this receptacle feeds any other receptacles or fixtures?

[If the GFCI feeds other receptacles downstream, try to eliminate anything that could have a fault downstream. It's possible, for example, that a frayed plug or something like that in another outlet fed by this GFCI is the culprit.]

If you can't isolate the problem to any particular appliance or fixture, and further assuming that you feel comfortable "putting your head under the hood", start by turning off the power to that outlet at the breaker and verifying that it is actually off. (A cheapo circuit tester is good for this.) Remove the cover plate and receptacle and carefully inspect all the wires and connections.

Look for a wire that's not securely attached to its terminal, a wirenut in the box that's come loose or anything that looks damaged or frayed. Also look for signs that a bare ground wire might be brushing against a terminal post or a bare portion of a conductor.

Just some "starter suggestions". Good luck with it.


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RE: gfci

I have already removed the cover plate and inspected the wires, they all looked good. It does feed two other receptacles downstream, one I looked at already, it looked good as far as I could tell, the last, I did not check, I will do that ASAP.


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RE: gfci

If you are comfortable working on the outlet, and easy way to check the other outlets is to remove them from the gfi.

Turn off the breaker
check the outlet with a tester to be sure it is off
remove the gfi without removing any wires
remove the wires on the line screws
bend the removed wires out of the way
reinstall the gfi
turn breaker on
plug something into the gfi that has been tripping it
If it trips the problem is right there
if it does not trip the problem is at either of the other outlets


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RE: gfci

You mentioned originally that the GFCI would "pop" when you plugged in a "larger appliance." If I'm getting this right, the problem is quickly replicable with a heavier load, but takes more time with the lighter load (the boombox). And it's sporadic and unpredictable with nothing plugged in. (Is that right...that it'll trip now and then with nothing plugged in, or just with nothing switched-on?)

Is there anything that's been plugged in (to either the GFCI or an upstream outlet) every time GFCI has tripped (whether turned on or not)? If so, you might want to remove this from the equation and try to replicate the problem again.

Have you confirmed that if you plug that same appliance into the next receptacle downstream, that it doesn't trip the GFCI? What I'm trying to do here is home in on the possibility that the fault is a mechanical failure within the GFCI itself.

Also, can you replicate the problem using both halves of the receptacle (assuming it's a duplex, of course)?

Hmm. Another thing you could pursue is this... Disconnect the load side wires that feed the two downstream receptacles and cap them with wirenuts, if you happen to have a couple handy. Then see if you can replicate the problem using the boombox or "larger appliance". That'd almost conclusively rule out a downstream fault and leave you pointed right smack at that GFCI receptacle. (You know, the one I said wasn't bad. ;-) )


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...whoops

Didn't see your post first, Hendricus, so apologies for the overlap.

But while we're at it, didn't you mean...

remove the wires on the load screws


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RE: gfci

If i were you i would just buy yourself a new GFI and change it out no sense tearing your house apart unless it keeps up after changing the GFI


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RE: gfci

A lot of people would agree with you, Bryan. I don't know how many posts I've seen here that begin with...

My GFCI outlet kept tripping so I went to Home Depot and bought a new one but I'm still having problems with the new one tripping.

I'm all but convinced that maybe half of all GFCI receptacles purchased at the big box stores go to replacing perfectly good equipment. Same thing with breakers. ("The lights in my bedrooms flickered and went out. I replaced the circuit breaker, but..." You get the picture.) The manufacturers and merchandisers must love it.

If you're an electrician (or in your case, an apprentice) and you're working out of a truck with parts in the back and you're billing a customer for time, it might not be a bad approach to try a quick change-out first. You don't have to drive to Home Depot and curse at their infernal automatic checkout machines that beep and buzz until the sales assistant shows up to tell the machine there is no unpaid-for item on the bagging rack. If the swap doesn't work, you can throw the part back in the truck and return it to your stock.

It's probably just my old-fartism at work, but I still like doing some troubleshooting first. I only wish that the people who fix my car learned to diagnose problems. But...no!...they just start swapping in new parts until the darn thing miraculously works again.

(As my GF will attest, this is an excellent way to go through four car batteries in two months.)

Ah, the disposable society, sigh.

/end old fart rant :-)


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RE: gfci

---remove the wires on the load screws---

Just thought about that when I reread the post, you are so right tom, thank you.

Hank


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RE: gfci

I agree with Tom that many of the gfci's thought to be faulty are actually OK.
I work for a company that distributes GE-brand gfci's and circuit breakers (actually RCDs here in New Zealand, but there is little technical difference between the two), and I get to test all of the so-called faulties that get returned to us. If we ignore those with obvious physical damage - broken toggles and the like, then well over half of those GFCIs/RCDs returned are found to function correctly. These have all been tested and rejected by electricians too.
Tom's method of fault-finding should help locate the source of the problem. A GFCI-tester makes it even easier, especially if you have one which does a 'ramp' test which measures the actual current the GFCI tips at. With this, you can dis off successive stages in the circuit and ramp test at each stage. When you see a large change in trip current, you have found the source of the leakage current.


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RE: gfci

Thanks for that 'Gnome. I've always wondered about that, but never had any "stats" to confirm.

Cheers.


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RE: gfci

All the GFCI failures I've ever seen have been mechanical failures. If one will latch and trip, it's most likely really detecting a fault.


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RE: gfci

There are a few ways that a gfci can fail :

Nuisance tripping can be caused by a fault in the gfci (although it is much more common for the cause of nuisance tripping to lie elsewhere in the circuit).
The gfci can fail to trip when the test button is pressed.
The gfci can not be reset after tripping on a fault (not always the gfci at fault - has the source of the leakage current that tripped the gfci been removed?).
The gfci resets after a fault but there is still no power to the outlets ( also not always the gfci at fault)


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RE: gfci

I had installed a gfi outlet six months ago and had no problems until several days ago my wife was vacuming and it tripped and could not be reset. I know you guys said to resist rushing out for a new gfi but, because I'm ignorant, and wanted to rule it out, I did it anyway. After that was ruled out I determined, with the advice found here (thanks terribletom) and the documentation that came with the new outlet that the problem was on the load side. Fortuantely, in the first outlet I checked, the bare ground wire was touching a bare portion of one of the conductors (wires). So after a few wraps with electrical tape the lights were on. Thanks terribletom, hendricus and others! I couldn't have done it without you!


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RE: gfci

The discussion has been very informative. Some of these fixture boxes can get rather crowded especially if the boxes are metal. As you all know, a receptacle in the middle of a run has wires on all four screws. I have taken to wrapping a lot of receptacles with electrical tape mainly to keep bare grounds coming in contact with the hot wires.


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RE: gfci

i doubt there is a problem with your gfi, more likely a real problem. gfi problems can be hard to find. as stated, check all of the loads, or remove the loads while troubleshooting.

more often than not, say 9 times out of 10, the gfi was right and i ending up finding a real problem, like:

-a partial leak to ground, say a cable underground than needs a little moisture to trip the gfi

-a load with a solid ground fault that is intermittent in nature

an insulation tester, called a megger is very handy finding these things, but watch out, they output high voltages, up to 1000 volts, and they can easily damage electronics.

if you need professional help, don't feel bad, it is easy to get stumped on an intermittent gfi trip.

rick


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