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caligirl_cottage

Okay, a cost question on ROUGH electrical. Can you help?

caligirl_cottage
16 years ago

I know these questions are hard to answer, but I just need some frame of reference for this since I'm completely out of my league on this.

I have a 2,000 square foot house, basically all new construction (one tiny bit still old). It's just been framed, so access is easy. I need an idea of rough electrical only, I realize the finish is definitely an owner driven cost and I'll be able to figure that out more easily. Any ideas of a rough cost for this?

THANK YOU

Comments (36)

  • caligirl_cottage
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Thanks Spencer. I appreciate your response. Yes, we are building to code, so as you say, we have all the outlets necessary per linear foot, a good number of cans, a chandelier, switch locations, cable and CAT-5. No ceiling fans. No garage but about six to eight exterior lights and certainly a new panel. Your per square foot cost topping at $8 a foot is interesting because I have a "bare bones bid" at $28,000 or $14 a foot and there is absolutely nothing fancy at all. I'm getting a few more bids, but I appreciate knowing a little more about the process.

    Thanks

  • spencer_electrician
    16 years ago

    Ahh now I notice, this is in California? Rates would be considerably higher, possibly double. If this is the equivalent of a 7/8 per foot job here it could be that it costs more like 12/14 there. Another bid is a good idea at that kind of price. It does help if you know things about wiring so you can compare them. Some companies will wire the living outlets, dinning and kitchen lights, and more lights and outlets all onto 1 15 amp circuit and still meet code requirements. As another with higher standards uses more circuits, possibly use 20 amp circuits on receptacle circuits where not required (above code). Then again most will not do much above code unless you ask for it because it is necessary to bid to only what is asked for and what the code requires in order to accurately bid a price. 14 per foot for bare bones here would be a joke. Then again in Kansas City, electricians get to fight bids against each other on who gets to wire a bathroom :) Electricians are in higher demand in CA and pricing is higher on everything

  • caligirl_cottage
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Ah, yes. We lucky Californians! Okay, now I'm confused as ever, but appreciate the advice and info. I'm bidding it out to two other subs with very good references so i hope to at least get a better idea of where we really are. Maybe they're all at $14 or even more, who knows.

  • petey_racer
    16 years ago

    Considering they are getting $3500 for a 200A service in California nothing surprises me.

  • sniffdog
    16 years ago

    There was another post last fall of someone who was building in CA and had a house twice your size and the bid was 40 grand. I remember posting on that to give the poster what we paid in a recently finished house in Northern VA - and it wasn't cheap.

    Our hosue is 5700 sq feet finished and has an unfinished basement. The builder bid it to minimum code (a sour point with me) and the cost to do the electrical was 20 grand. The actual cost to wire it to my plan (which I had given him prior to signing the contract - and thought that he had incorporated it into the cost of the house) was an additional 19 grand! The extra's included recessed lights (87 cans), extra plugs, quite a few 3 way and 4 way switches, exterior flood lights - nothing really fancy - just not min code. I wound up doing a lot of the extra wiring myself - so my actual cost was the 20 grand plus 8.5 grand for extra's.

    On top of this, I did all the wiring for for voice & data, security system, whole house audio, cable etc. Had I contracted this out - the wiring would have cost at least another 10 grand.

    So if I added all that up - assuming it was all contracted out - it would run 49,000 for 5700 square feet or about 8.60 a square foot.

    BTW - our prices from the electrician included the rough in and the the finish work too.

    Hope that helps.

  • caligirl_cottage
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Wow, that's certainly an eye opener! I'm thinking maybe the $28,000 isn't so far off. It will be interesting to see how these two other bids come in. One of them is advertising a new 200 amp service at $1,800 and comes very highly recommended, so maybe he'll have the best of both worlds - good quality at a reasonable price... Could that be possible!?

  • Stephen Bowens
    7 years ago

    What areas can I leave in a rough-in status and, expand in the future?

  • Ron Natalie
    7 years ago

    All the finished areas likely are going to be required to have fully finished wiring. The unfinished basement only typically requires one receptacle be installed and the rest may be left roughed in.

  • mtvhike
    7 years ago

    Ron - by roughed in do you mean boxes installed and wired but no devices? In my case, the only boxes installed in the basement were the wall switch boxes; some had switches but none had any plates.

    When my house in northern NY was turned over to me with a CofO, the unfinished basement had:

    Utility room - one light with wall switch and a triple duplex receptacle under the breaker box

    Future workshop - one ceiling light with wall switch

    Main part of basement - 4 ceiling lights with a pair of 3-way wall switches, one at the outside door and one at the foot of the stairs

    Finished stairs - 3 lights with a pair of 3-way wall switches

    Future bathroom - nothing

    Future guest room - no lights but a wired wall switch next to another exit door.

    All needed power in the basement supplied with extension cords plugged into the triple duplex receptacle.

    I hadn't asked specifically asked for any of this, but I guess they had to put them in to meet code requirements.

  • Jonathon LANG
    7 years ago

    Please do not let anyone take advantage of you by charging you more than you need to pay. I'm in the process of building a home right now and I just had an electrician try to take advantage of me. He was a subcontractor for my builder but is no longer. My house is at 3,000 sq. ft. exactly and the electrician was going to charge me $65 per can (Recessed can, trim, and light) and that's not with the cost of wiring. So, he was going to provide the 40 cans my builder had in the budget and charge me $65 for each one. He said he charged $20 to install and wire each can on top of that price. So it was actually $85 a can after wiring. My father saw this and immediately called BS on this and told my builder that we would provide the cans. Went to Home Depot and it turns out the actual cans only cost $5.20 a piece and the trim and higher end LED dimeable lights cost $11.31 together. So, the total was $16.51 per unit. I told my builder this and he literally said that he didn't believe me. So, I texted him a pic of the receipt. I don't know if he was in on this or not with the electrician but, he said they have been using this guy for the past 8 years and no one else. So, I picked the next electrician and I provided every single fixture, bulb, trim, switches, dimers, etc. and my price for everything was literally $6,987 dollars cheaper than what the other electrician was going to charge. Always ask questions and always do your own research. Also, I would always recommend providing everything you possibly can and just let them install it.

  • kudzu9
    7 years ago

    I would wonder if I had the right contractor if he told me he didn't believe me and/or was unaware of costs on basic items like this. What other subs is this guy foisting off on you?

  • freeoscar
    7 years ago

    where I am, $85 per new-construction can installed would be a pretty good price. $20/per can for the wiring (which includes not just installing the can but pulling all the romex, laying out and setting up the proper circuits and breakers, putting in the switch boxes, attentive measuring to make sure the lights all line up) sounds way too cheap.

    I don't get hung up on specific line items because I doubt most trades think this way on residential jobs. IME they look at the scope of the work, take a look at the site to determine what specific challenges may exist, take their best guess at how long it'll take, multiply by their fully loaded rate, and then massage that based on their desire for that job at that particular time with that client/GC.

  • TJ Lewis
    6 years ago

    I want to post to help others have an idea of pricing. I am in Denver and just completed a 5600sf, one level ranch with all the mechanical in a 50"h crawl space. We built to a HERS 35, the electrician did ONLY the electrical - no low voltage or AV - but we have two HVAC systems and 2 HRV systems. With NO can lights (to improve insulation factor), only j-boxes for surface mount LED slim line boxes for a total of 126 inside & out, 3 LED chandeliers, 5 kitchen pendants, 2 car chargers, 6 ceiling fans, 3 garage door openers, built in vac, 5 built in outdoor heaters, 5 baths with electric heated floors and all the requisite appliances & outlets, the total installation for the 400 amp service was $56,834. That is all in - temp power to fixture installation. No fixtures were included in that pricing. It is unfortunate that Denver has so much construction and the supply for good electricians is scarce, so that is part of the driver of the pricing. I hope this helps others in figuring pricing.

    It is unfortunate that Denver has so much construction and the supply for good electricians is scarce, so that is part of the driver of the pricing. I hope this helps others in figuring pricing.

  • jemdandy
    6 years ago

    Plan to have 200 amp service entrance at minimum and a breaker box that has plenty of spare spaces for future use. For example, if you plan to have 10 circuits, choose a box with space for at least 6 more circuits for a total of 16. A box that has two columns of 10 spaces each is good (20 spaces). If in the future, you add an A/C, electric clothes dryer, or kitchen range, these use 240 v supply and have 2 breakers for each circuit. Future circuits can add up fast.

  • mtvhike
    6 years ago

    The largest readily available 200 amp breaker box is 40 breakers, and I see no reason not to go with that. In my new construction, they put in 200 Amp service with one of these boxes; there were about 6 spaces left over. Then they decided I needed 400 Amps, (no additional circuits needed) so they put in another 40 breaker box, to which they moved the 125 Amp breaker to power the 90 Amp electric boiler.

  • Ron Natalie
    6 years ago

    Well, 42 actually. That used to be a requirement of the code. So you'd never see a panel that would allow more than 42 poles. For panels that would support tandem or skinny breakers (two per slot), the slots were interlocked in some way to prevent going over 42.


    That was loosened up in the 2008 version of the code. They make bigger ones now. SquareD's QO panels go up to 60 poles.

  • PRO
    D B Electric
    6 years ago

    (I have a 2,000 square foot house, basically all new construction)

    Get at least 3 local bids from electricians in your area and have them break the Quote down to opening cost Labor & Material for the minimum code in your area. Check at least 3 references from each of the electricians that provide these Quotes. Research is the key to keeping to cost within a set budget. Ask each electrician how they terminate their wiring either back stabbed into devices like outlet and switches or pig tailed true series circurit? The pig tailing is the best method because downstream devices will not lose power like back stabbed devices which over time become loose and cause all kinds of problems. Also pig tailing forms a tap off a trunk line and down stream devices will not lose power unless a overload or dead short is present.

    Take into consideration that open studs is a clean slate to start with and cutting corners is not the ideal situation to make years of trouble free operation possible. The code in your area is the minimum allowed and the bare minimum has to be meet with ruff in and usually top out inspections by your local electrical inspectors. Knowing that the minimum code has to be meet than opens many possibilities to go above current code with quality craftsmanship and materials suited to any individual needs and wants.

    Who ever does do your electrical make them do it to fit your needs not their speed and slap together mess's that I see all too often from many licensed contractors. An example of this is the back stabbing and mixing of outlet loads and lighting loads all on the same circuit breakers. Ture all legal to meet minimum codes but not good ideas in the least. The reason is simple enough if an outlet trips from an overload or a dead short then you also will loose your lighting. Taking the time to go above code and add additional sperated dedicated circuit breakers for outlets and lighting means even if a outlet trips a breaker you will not lose your lighting.

    All too often I see on Houzz that free advice given to others means a list of criticizing with other opinions that this style of work is OVER KILL. But I can tell you as a retired master electrician that the more efficient that you can operate any electrical load is savings in your wallet. An example of this is switching from standard 60 watt light bulbs to 9 watt LED same screw in style bulbs, that is a 51 watt per bulb savings in your home that you switch to. Also dedicating any appliance loads onto their own circuit breakers extends the EOL (end of life) on every appliance load. This is possible by not starving the appliance load at startup which requires more voltage and if other lighting and outlets are on the same appliance load than it is being starved at startup.

    Hope It All Helps

    D B Electric

    www.dbelectric.us

  • Bruce in Northern Virginia
    6 years ago

    If you want to be satisfied with your new home, do not plan on installing only the minimum number of receptacles and lights mandated by code.

    For example, if the wall in your bedroom is 12 feet long, code would allow the electrician to install only one receptacle (the requirement is that no point on the wall is more than 6 feet from a receptacle). However, if you plan to put the bed on that wall, you would want two receptacles, one for each nightstand next to the bed.

    If you have a lot of electronics (iPad, cell phone, laptap, etc.) you usually want receptacles at convenient locations where you use or "park" the devices, because everything seems to have a charger you need to plug in.

    There are also places where you might want an extra light fixture as an accent, for task lighting, etc. Minimum requirements would require only a single ceiling light with a wall switch in most rooms. Minimum code would also not require fan/light wiring with separate switches for a bedroom. There would be no requirement for bathroom heater/fan, since heat is not required. There are many other examples where you many want to go above the minimum.

    Bruce

  • PRO
    Larimer engineering
    5 years ago

    Code minimum is one switch controlled outlet for lighting, which can be a receptacle , usually a half hot receptacle. Ceiling light not required. In our area a fan is required in each bathroom and laundry and the noise they make is regulated also.

  • catinthehat
    5 years ago

    Another thing to consider that is above code minimums if you have nice open walls for electrical is to upsize your wiring. Increasing the wiring size reduces heat generation and reduces voltage drop. That translates into a small amount of energy savings over time. I recently rewired the majority of my home in this manner. Based on my calculations, I should break even on the additional wire costs in about 6 years, after that it's permanent savings in my pocket each month.

  • greg_2015
    5 years ago

    "Based on my calculations"

    Care to share how you made those calculations? The "heat generation and reduced voltage drop" factor would normally be miniscule in typical situations. Oversizing the wires is typically a waste of money. Bigger isn't always better.

    You have to take voltage drop into consideration when the distance is really long, but those situations are normally an exception to the norm and not necessary for every single circuit.

  • DavidR
    5 years ago

    It's hard to believe that anyone building or rewiring a home today would go for 15 amp receptacle circuits, no matter how much money it saves.

    OTOH, folks in Europe manage just fine with far fewer receptacles we have, and (especially in Spain) a fraction of the total KW capacity in their home electrical services. Something to think about, I guess.

    As far as rough-in cost goes, when I hear the cost premium of building a new house over buying an existing one, it amazes me that anyone still does it. But then I'm kind of frugal. :)

  • catinthehat
    5 years ago

    Hi greg_2015, stating that oversizing wiring as generally a waste of money would be an oversimplification in my humble opinion. I did calculations on a large spreadsheet with the assistance of some of my electrical engineering colleagues. Electrical calculations is not my area of expertise, but I would say I am knowledgeable enough to follow the logic and theory. I enjoy these types of problems, and did individual calculations for each circuit and accounted for estimated useage and typical power draw. It is not uncommon in my home for a circuit run to span 100 feet or more. Minimizing voltage drop improves efficiency, how much will depend on your own situation. My statement above was as a suggestion for folks to consider.

  • DavidR
    5 years ago

    Not to duplicate your work, or to suggest that folks shouldn't consider your suggestion, but I did some calculations too -- on paper, not with a spreadsheet. :)

    The average US home uses about 11,000 kWh (!) per year. That's an average load of about 1.26 kW. Grossly simplifying things, let's say that your home has no 240v circuits (all-gas home?) but thirty 120v circuits, each wired with 100 feet of #12 copper NM. Further, let's assume that all the loads on each circuit are at the end of that 100 feet. (I said it was a gross simplification, gimme a break!)

    Each circuit sees an average instantaneous load of 42 watts or 0.35 amps across 0.318 ohms, so the wire is wasting 0.11 watts on average. You have 30 such circuits, for a total of about 3.34 Watts. That's about 29.2kWh per year wasted in your home's wiring. Seems like a lot, doesn't it?

    So let's change your #12 NM to #10 and see if we can't do better.

    Now each of your thirty 100 ft circuits has a resistance of .2 ohms, so the waste is reduced to 0.07 Watts per circuit, 2.1 Watt for the house, or 18.4 kWh per year. You've cut your wiring energy waste by one-third. Not bad.

    But wait a minute. The reduction in waste is 10.8kWh per year. Your yearly use is 11,000kWh. You've shaved just 0.1 percent off of your yearly consumption.

    And at what cost? Based on the current prices at one of the big box stores, 3000 ft of 12-2 NM in 250 foot rolls would cost about $825. The same amount of #10 would be $1,757, or $932 more.

    We won't even discuss how much more your electrician might charge you for working with that miserable heavy stuff in all your receptacle circuits, and how much more you'd have to pay for larger junction boxes to handle the greater box fill.
    Now let's look at what else you might do with that $932.

    The DOE says that a typical central air conditioner uses "over 2000" kWh per year. To make things easy, let's call it an even 2000kWh.

    And let's say for the sake of argument that this is a 13 SEER aircon using this 2000 kWh. A 17 SEER unit would produce the same amount of cooling with 1529 kWh.

    Taking numbers from possibly unreliable internet sources, we see that a 3 ton 13 SEER Trane XR13 central air conditioner unit costs $1495 (less installation), and a 3 ton 17 SEER Trane XL17 is $2290. So the more efficient model is $795 more.

    With the more efficient air conditioner, you'd use 471 kWh less per year. That's almost 44 times as much energy savings as your wiring upgrade would have given you.

    Instead of just 0.1%, you've saved 4.3% of your yearly TOTAL energy consumption of 11,000 kWh. And you still have $137 of your $932 #10 wiring premium left in your pocket to buy, say, more efficient lighting.

    It's your call, but I know where I'd rather spend the extra dollars.

  • catinthehat
    5 years ago

    Hi David thanks for that analysis. Sorry I do not have the time I use to for these forums, but I will get back to you regarding the differences between our calcs. My initial conditions are different that what you listed, but that's not a big deal. Our math does not match though, my energy losses I calculated are an order of magnitude different than yours. I double checked some of my calcs with some basic online calculators and got the same results. When I get a bit more time to analyze where our differences are I will get back to you. Not trying to say who is wrong, but my gut feeling is something is missing from your nice example.

  • ionized_gw
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I'll bet that Cat's calc uses something closer to fully-loaded circuits vs. Davidr's. If so, the question then becomes what is more realistic, a fully-loaded circuit or 42W (0.35A). If I am doing my calculations correctly, with a 10A load and DavidR's numbers, we get 3.2W used for the 12 AWG circuit and 2W for the 10 AWG. That is a 38% difference.

    The situation requires lots more information into the calculations. Average load does not even make it. It seems like someone must have done this for a typical home in the US including hours of vent fan, lights, dryer, HVAC,... use. 11,000 kWh/year is 1.25 kW /hr. Over 20 circuits, that is 62.5 W/circuit.

    That tells me to use lower AWG on what you expect to be highly loaded circuits, maybe. I have to keep in mind that those loads have to be on for significant portion of the day to be meaningful. The garage door opener does not qualify, The refrig, kegerator, window AC unit, and plasma TV in the hot garage might since I spend 16 hrs a day in there watching TV :-}

  • DavidR
    5 years ago

    Common sense has it, I think.

    If you put a large, long-duty-cycle load at the end of a long cable run, it makes sense to use cable a size (or more) larger. Probably most pros already do that. At least I hope so.

    For general use circuits, a wire-gauge upgrade is less likely to give you a reasonable return, especially as appliances and lighting become more efficient.

    I wonder when the NFPA is going to realize that with modern LED lighting typically using 80-90% less power than equivalent incandescent, dedicated lighting circuits could quite safely and efficiently be wired with #16 or even #18.

  • greg_2015
    5 years ago

    A typical home uses 11,000 kWh/year and I read somewhere that a clothes dryer accounts for about 12% of our energy usage. So if you just upsize the wiring on that one circuit and remove it's energy usage from the calculations above, the benefit of upsizing the wiring on general use circuits is even lower.

    And given that a laundry room is probably normally in the basement, not too far from the breaker panel, it may not benefit to upsize that wiring at all (but I didn't do the math).

  • ionized_gw
    5 years ago

    Excellent point. The range, if electric might be a target for some people who cook a lot. I would think that the refrig or deep freeze are considerations given power use and compressor start-up issues.

  • kudzu9
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Another factor to consider is that "heat generation" from the wiring is not necessarily a loss. Any time you need to have your heating system on, heat generation from other sources reduces the load on the furnace. Now if you live somewhere that you need air conditioning at some times, the reverse would be true, However, I'm pointing out that one can't simply count reduction in heat generation as a 100% financial benefit without looking at the climate specifics.

  • ionized_gw
    5 years ago

    I use my main service panel to warm my hands sometimes. Does anyone see a problem with that?

  • kudzu9
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    ionized-

    I thought I was the only one who did that.... ;-)

  • PRO
    NRG Electric Inc
    last year

    I am an electrical contractor in california (bay area), we generally end up billing out between $15-$20 a square foot for new construction. This includes all finish materials except for anything surface mounted (fans, sconces, surface mount lights). We are starting a 3000 square foot home in san carlos that was a little above $45,000. If you have any questions feel free to reach out.

    -Nathan

    408-500-6513

  • mtvhike
    last year

    Nathan, not that it's a biggie, but when I had my house build, the electrician made all the circuits 20A (or more), using 12GA wire. Is that standard? It did seem strange to have the smoke detectors on a dedicated 20A circuit, but maybe it was simply easier to use the same kind of wire for most circuits.

  • PRO
    NRG Electric Inc
    last year

    Hi MTVhike,

    We generally do a 15amp dedicated circuit for the smoke alarms. Every electrical contractor has there own way of wiring up a house. The only thing we do 15amp circuits for is lighting sometimes and smoke alarm. Everything else will be 20amps or above. You would rather have this contractor than one that is putting everything on 15amp circuits. It does also depend how many circuits you are putting in the house.

    Our circuit layouts: (changes depending on size)

    1 20amp each bedroom

    1 20amp each bathroom

    1 20amp garage

    1 50amp for car charger (ready for future use)

    1 40amp for stove

    1 30amp for A/C

    1 20amp exterior

    1< 20amp common area receptacles (amount depends on size)

    1< 15/20amp common area lighting

    1 20amp per 2 small appliance circuits, micro, frig, GD, DW

    1 20amp for Washer

    1 30amp for dryer

    additional dedicated circuits per requiest or equipment

    I believe I got everything, I did it off the top of my head.


    Overall, this would not be a worry if I saw an electrical contractor installing 20amp circuit for smoke alarms. Hopefully, there was something helpful in there.

    -Nathan

    NRG Electric Inc

    408-508-5350

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