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sjmaye

Stumped on GFCI Circuit Breaker

sjmaye
13 years ago

I recently moved in to this house. I have a GFCI circuit breaker in the panel that trips anytime I plug ANY load in to one of the protected outlets. The only thing I can plug in and not trip is is one of those plug in testers to verify wiring is done correctly. Anything else will trip it immediately.

I have tried replacing the GFCI circuit breaker no change. I tracked what I thought were every outlet and all look good. I have disconnected all the outlets except what I thought was the one connected directly to the circuit breaker. No change. Still trips.

This outlet is in the basement almost directly underneath the panel box. The only thing I can think is there must be another defective outlet in between, but I cannot find it.

I am baffled that I cannot find this hidden outlet. Does anyone know an easy way?

Comments (52)

  • Ron Natalie
    13 years ago

    A neutral-to-ground fault should trip as soon as the breaker is closed. I suspect it's what I said earlier.

  • ontariojer
    13 years ago

    "A neutral-to-ground fault should trip as soon as the breaker is closed."

    No it wouldn't, it would only trip if there was a load.

    Having said that, these are all good suggestions.

    What I don't understand is why it DOESN'T trip with the tester. It should if other loads cause a trip. Unless it is doing some weird current splitting that keeps it just below the sensitivity(possible with just a couple LEDs being such a small load maybe?). Either way my bet is one of these three suggestions have it.

  • sjmaye
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    After replying to you guys about the wiring I did a quick search on wiring of GFCI circuit breakers. It looks like the prior homeowner installed the circuit breaker and did not wire it correctly.

    According to the generic wiring instructions for a GFCI circuit breaker the black and white wires for that circuit should go to the GFCI breaker and the built-in white wire from the GFCI breaker should go to the neutral rail. In my case the black wire is running the GFCI and the both whites are running to the neutral rail.

    I am pulling up wiring for the actual breaker to verify.

  • sjmaye
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Attached is the wiring diagram from Murray for that GFCI circuit breaker. It DOES appear he had it wired incorrectly.

    If I read it right the correct wiring should be:

    circuit black---to GFCI
    circuit white---to GFCI
    GFCI white--- to neutral rail

    What I have now:
    circuit black---to GFCI
    circuit white---to neutral rail
    GFCI white--- to neutral rail

    Would this cause the problems I am having?

    Here is a link that might be useful:

  • hendricus
    13 years ago

    A GFCI reads the imbalance between the hot (black) and neutral (white). If your neutral is going straight to the neutral bar there is no way for the GFCI to read the return and it concludes that there is a major fault.

    Black and white both go to the GFCI.

  • terribletom
    13 years ago

    That would definitely cause your problem.

    Most likely, the previous owner knew that the circuit required a GFCI (was there a home inspection report?) and just slapped one in without knowing what s/he was doing and then never tested any of the outlets.

    The circuit could never have worked with the circuit neutral wired to the panel's neutral bar.

  • sjmaye
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Yes, there was an inspection report and I bet he did exactly that. Slapped one in without knowing what to do. I have been cleaning up weird wiring things since I moved in. Almost every add-on receptacle has some lame-brained, half-butt thing done. I should not be surprised.

    I only blame myself for not doubting the wiring of the original GFCI circuit breaker in the first place.

    Thanks for the help.

  • Ron Natalie
    13 years ago

    Yep, I believe I suggested the breaker being wired wrong as the first thing I'd check.

    While it's not your problem, I again take issue with ontario's statement. The way a GFCI detects a neutral to ground fault is that it has a little transformer that couples a small signal on the hot and neutral lines TOGETHER. If the hot touches ground you'd trip a regular breaker, so that's not usually an issue. If the neutral touches ground, the leakage of this small signal will trip the GFCI circuit. It will happen as soon as the breaker is closed. It doesn't require a load. If your GFCI trips as soon as it is closed, it's almost certain that the Neutral is touching ground (or another neutral) downstream somewhere.

  • globe199
    13 years ago

    I had a weird situation like what ronnatalie describes. An electrician added a circuit (to separate some stuff from a sort-of overloaded circuit). After bringing the new circuit to the junction box and turning it on, an upstream GFCI on the old circuit tripped and wouldn't reset. He realized right away that neutrals from the two circuits were connected. After tying off the old neutral, everything was fine.

  • ontariojer
    13 years ago

    Ronnatalie- I pointed out that the OP said it only tripped with a load. You dismissed randys (valid)suggestion out of hand and implied that a neutral/ground "fault" would trip the breaker even without a load. Some do and some don't. Most of the ones I see don't. I guess I should have said that instead but I thought your post after Randy was a bit smug sounding and I went off half cocked.

  • sjmaye
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Guys- I wanted to report back that after wiring the breaker correctly all is well. Many thanks for your help!

  • Ron Natalie
    13 years ago

    I'm sorry, but it was rightfully discounted. If the protected neutral is connected to another grounded (or grounding) conductor, the GFCI should trip immediately or it's not operating properly. It doesn't require a load of any sort. Now it's possible that the load could have a fault in it, but that would seem not to be the case from his description as he tried a diversity of devices.

  • ontariojer
    13 years ago

    Did you miss the part about some GFCI breakers do and some don't trip without a load if the neutral/grounds are touching? If it was one that doesn't trip, randys' suggestion was valid. Since we don't know what type it is- we can't assume either way. Are you suggesting that Randy is lying when he says he has seen that happen?

  • Ron Natalie
    13 years ago

    What listed GFCI device (either receptacle or breaker) works in the strange way you invented?

  • brickeyee
    13 years ago

    "Some do and some don't."

    The newer ones are required to trip as soon as power is applied to them on neutral ground faults.

    This is one of the reasons they will not reset if no power is present at the line terminals.

    They are also required to not reset if line & load are reversed (power supplied form load terminals).

    Older GFCI equipment did not have these requirements.

  • fa_f3_20
    13 years ago

    I had a situation a few months ago where something very like what the OP reported was happening. I had a bedroom circuit that the AFCI was tripping on. After some experimenting, I found that I could plug in an alarm clock with an LED display, but any other load caused the breaker to trip after about 1/2 second.

    After tearing into the circuit, I found an outlet where the ground wire was touching the neutral screw. The ground had some excess length and it had folded up like an accordian when the outlet was pushed into the box. I cut the excess off and put it back in the box, and the circuit was fine.

    This particular circuit is off of a subpanel, and it's a fairly long run (maybe 75' wire length) back to the service entrance. The subpanel is on a 100A feeder. And yes, it's wired properly, with separate neutral and ground.

  • deenie3
    10 years ago

    I'm experiencing a similar problem. I have the situation where the GFCI circuit breaker located in the panel now trips immediately upon being reset to "on". This condition has arisen after the circuit was overloaded by the use of too many crock pots/coffee makers, tripped, and was repeatedly reset (i.e., worked as it should have). Now though, with nothing plugged in to draw current, the breaker won't hold the "on" position. I replaced the breaker and get the same failure. I inspected the two culprit overloaded outlets and couldn't see any obvious problems. I'm baffled and would welcome anyone's ideas.

  • bus_driver
    10 years ago

    In the case of the mysterious tripping GFCI breaker, I start by removing the circuit conductor connected to the breaker and cycling the breaker on-off. If the breaker holds, turn it off and reconnect the conductor. Go next to the outlet on that circuit nearest the breaker and inspect the conductors and device(s) found there. Disconnect the downstream feed from there and turn on the breaker. This procedure should eventually result in the breaker not tripping at one outlet and tripping at the next one downstream. The problem is at one of those boxes or between them.
    With all due respect, if there is any part or aspect of this procedure that you do not understand, then you are not presently experienced enough to undertake solving this problem.

    Almost all online definitions of "outlet" do not correspond with the definition of the NEC. An outlet can include the point a which a light fixture gets its power supply. See the link.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Outlet definition-- scroll down

  • jimu57
    10 years ago

    deleted this post

    This post was edited by jimu57 on Tue, Feb 18, 14 at 7:49

  • jimu57
    10 years ago

    Something else to consider. A GFCI receptacle can protect all receptacles downstream, but if you have 2 GFCI receptacles in the same circuit, you will get nuisance tripping. Make sure there is not more than 1 GFCI receptacle in a circuit. Also, make sure there is NOT a GFCI receptacle in the circuit that you have a GFCI breaker. Some thing will happen.

  • petey_racer
    10 years ago

    First off, something MAY happen. It's not certain. I have seen many DIY installations with GFIs fed off the load side of another GFI and they were FINE.

    Second, this is from last November. I'd hope the problem was solved by now.

  • bus_driver
    10 years ago

    "if you have 2 GFCI receptacles in the same circuit, you will get nuisance tripping."
    As Petey says-- not correct. Some plug-in devices/cords have their own built-in GFCI and they function just fine if plugged-in to a GFCI protected circuit.

  • Patrick Mulvany
    8 years ago

    I have a weird situation in the same vein: My RV is plugged into an outbuilding when not in use, just to keep the batteries topped off. I was looking at something that caught my eye under the RV the other day, and as my arm brushed some part of the chassis, I got a shock! I went out and bought a circuit tester, and it diagnosed an open ground on the receptacle I have the RV plugged into. I found the junction box inside another outbuilding closer to the house where the previous owner's electrician tapped into a 20 amp circuit to run a wire out to the more remote outbuilding. Inside that junction box, I found black to black, white to white, and sure enough, ground to nothing. Eureka, I thought, I found it! I connected the source and load grounds, then reenergized the circuit with a switch I have in the garage. I plugged my circuit tester in to the close outbuilding (which never had a problem) and it was dead! I went in to the house panel, and the 20 amp breaker was popped. I went out and disconnected the ground again, reset the breaker, and everything returned to the way it was - no ground in the outer building, and everything 4.0 in the inner building. What does this all mean? The breaker is a Square D with a test button on it, which works as advertised. wHy would an electrician knowingly leave a building full of outlets unprotected by a ground?




  • greg_2015
    8 years ago

    Because the "handy man" (ie most likely not an electrician) probably couldn't find the ground fault, so he just left it unattached so that the GFCI didn't trip and he could get paid and go home and hope that the homeowner would never know that he created a dangerous situation.


  • Patrick Mulvany
    8 years ago

    I think you're exactly right. The thing that bothers me is that the former owner told me it was an electrician. Do you think I'm justified requesting that that guy come out here and explain to me what he did for the previous owner? It was clearly intentional, but it wasn't my money he stole. Just my safety.

  • paulfisher_94023
    7 years ago

    I have a similar problem, and I'm stumped. I have a subpanel in a pool shed. There is a 20a twin poll CB that feeds 2 pumps. Below this there is a gfci CB that feeds a pool light, an outlet, and a cover motor. The gfci CB trips. I have disconnected all wires to the Gfci CB. Still the gfci trips. I disconnected the pool pump CB. Still the gfci trips. I have tried connecting the neutral from the gfci CB to the ground it still trips. I am thinking there is a problem upstream in my main circuit panel, but nothing has changed. The gfci CB and entire subpanel was installed 15 years ago, and has never been a problem until now. Any ideas appreciated..

  • Ron Natalie
    7 years ago

    Tanks of water that you put your body and your family's bodies into is not a place for amateurs screwing around with the circuitry. Find an electrician experienced with pools. We lose a couple of people a year due to screwed up pool lighting wiring alone.

    Nothing on the supply side of a GFCI will make it trip. Get someone who knows what they are doing to check things out. Tripping without a load is usually neutral to ground fault. There's a tiny possibility that the GFCI breaker has failed, but all the other possibilities need to be checked out as well.

  • paulfisher_94023
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    the gfci CB has no load connected to it, load or neutral yet it trips. I bought a new Gfci CB so it's not the component. I checked micro current neutral to ground, nothing . Can you describe neutral to ground fault or give me a link to learn more.

  • paulfisher_94023
    7 years ago

    Looked into my issue on the Internet and discussed with some tech colleagues . From what I can tell, the sub panel neutral wire and ground wire has some small current in it. Has anyone seen this before? My thinking is that the house ground rod may be corroded or not functioning properly, will check this. Any other suggestions?

  • weedmeister
    7 years ago

    Is your subpanel located away from the main structure and does it have a separate grounding system?

  • paulfisher_94023
    7 years ago

    The sub panel is in a separate structure about 100' from he main panel. The substructure does not have separate grounding. Grounding is provided to the sub panel structure via a green 8ga ground wire .

  • Ron Natalie
    7 years ago

    You have an illegal system there and given it's driving a pool, extremely dangerous.

    This is way beyond self help get a pool savvy electrician in there to fix things ASAP.


  • paulfisher_94023
    7 years ago

    Ron shush up. It was installed in 1999 with permits and inspections. It has never been modified . Problem with licensed electricians is that they aren't the best at troubleshooting. They are great for installing stuff and simple fix its. This is not simple. Ps-. I have a pe

  • weedmeister
    7 years ago

    Sub panels in a separate building are required to have their own grounding system. Don't know the code reference, but you need a ground rod or two.

  • paulfisher_94023
    7 years ago

    Thanks for that. Yes the green ground wire is connected to a ground rod just like the nec says.


    any ideas on what could be the problem? It is quite clear that there is some sort of current on both the ground and neutral. A colleague suggested getting a better gfci than what they have at lowes. The good gfci have current adjustments and can turn the thing up. Those cost a couple hundred though.

  • paulfisher_94023
    7 years ago

    Since there is no load on the CB the current must be coming from upstream...

  • Fred S
    7 years ago

    The building does need its own grounding electrode system (ground rod or ufer ground), but all the bonding that goes into a pool installation is usually way better than "a ground rod or two" already. All the rebar is bonded together and to the panel (ufer ground), not to mention any other metal parts...

    "The substructure does not have separate grounding. Grounding is provided to the sub panel structure via a green 8ga ground wire." - What does the other end of that "green 8ga ground wire" attach to??

    "I have tried connecting the neutral from the gfci CB to the ground it still trips." - do you mean the curly white wire that comes with the breaker? If so, was it previously connected to a neutral bar as opposed to the ground bar? Or are you saying that you switched the 'load' neutral wire that is always supposed to be connected to the breaker neutral terminal, and connected the load neutral wire to the neutral bar of the breaker panel that is also bonded to the panel and serves as both a neutral AND grounding bar?

    "From what I can tell, the sub panel neutral wire and ground wire has some small current in it." - Is that neutral wire and a separate ground wire, or a neutral wire that you assume is also a ground, like was the case with older range and dryer receptacles?

    .

    Obviously, the subject got off track from your original question, but it may or may not be pertinent as to whether this outbuilding has a 3 wire feed, or 3 wires plus a ground going from the house to the outbuilding. I am still unsure.



  • Fred S
    7 years ago

    I think this is what the code disagreement was about...

    Prior to 2008

    250.32(B)(2) Grounded Conductor

    Where (1) an equipment grounding conductor is not run with the supply to the building or structure, (2) there are no continuous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in each building or structure involved, and (3) ground-fault protection of equipment has not been installed on the supply side of the feeder(s), the grounded conductor run with the supply to the building or structure shall be connected to the building or structure disconnecting means and to the grounding electrode(s) and shall be used for grounding or bonding of equipment, structures, or frames required to be grounded or bonded.

    .

    2008

    http://freenec.com/T79.html


    .

    2011 NEC


    250.32 Buildings or Structures Supplied by a Feeder or Branch Circuit.


    (B) Equipment Grounding Conductor.


    (1) Supplied by a Feeder or Branch Circuit. To quickly clear a ground fault and remove dangerous voltage from metal parts, the building/structure disconnecting means must be connected to the circuit equipment grounding conductor, which must be one of the types described in 250.118. If the supply circuit equipment grounding conductor is of the wire type, it must be sized in accordance with 250.122, based on the rating of the overcurrent device.


    Caution: To prevent dangerous objectionable neutral current from flowing onto metal parts [250.6(A)], the supply circuit neutral conductor isn’t permitted to be connected to the remote building/structure disconnecting means [250.142(B)].


    Ex: The neutral conductor can serve as the ground-fault return path for the building/structure disconnecting means for existing installations in compliance with previous editions of the Code where there are no continuous metallic paths between buildings and structures, ground-fault protection of equipment isn’t installed on the supply side of the circuit, and the neutral conductor is sized no smaller than the larger of:


    (1) The maximum unbalanced neutral load in accordance with 220.61.


    (2) The minimum equipment grounding conductor size in accordance with 250.122.


  • Fred S
    7 years ago

    "A colleague suggested getting a better gfci than what they have at lowes. The good gfci have current adjustments and can turn the thing up. Those cost a couple hundred though." - - NO!!

    http://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-standards/differences-between-gfci-idci-and-gfpe

  • Fred S
    7 years ago

    "I checked micro current neutral to ground, nothing." - If the neutral and grounds are bonded together at that subpanel, then there better not be any voltage difference. No voltage = no current.

    "Can you describe neutral to ground fault or give me a link to learn more." - just what it says. Take a short wire and strip the ends. Put one end in the neutral (longer slot) and the other end in the ground joke of a GFCI receptacle and watch it trip.

    There should be nothing upstream of a GFCI device that will make it trip.

    "From what I can tell, the sub panel neutral wire and ground wire has some small current in it."

    If you have a small voltage or current in the neutral of the outbuilding panel, with nothing turned on from that panel, then you may

    1. Have the ground and neutral bonded together somewhere in the panel or after the panel.

    2. You are testing voltage, and you are completing the circuit when you put one probe to the neutral and the other to ground. Voltage to ground can be different 100 feet apart from each other.

    3. Your grounding electrode system is messed up at the house (you could try watering the ground rod) or possibly a loose neutral from the service transformer at the house, and the neutral current is trying to find an alternate path.


  • paulfisher_94023
    7 years ago

    Hi Fred, option 3 in the last post is possible. Can you think of anything else?

    1 is ruled out, I checked resistance.

    Let me recap


    problem statement:. Gfci CB in subpanel trips with no load attached.

    observations:

    gfci CB installed correctly.

    gfci CB operated correctly for 10+ years.

    gfci CB ruled out through component replacement.

    ground rod at main panel shows corrosion. further investigation needed.




  • Fred S
    7 years ago

    "1 is ruled out, I checked resistance" - How? Did you disconnect both the neutral and grounding wires that come from the house before testing this?

    "gfci CB installed correctly.

    gfci CB ruled out through component replacement."

    It can't be both. If the GFCI is not defective, and it is installed correctly, then it would work correctly. PERIOD

    If it still trips with absolutely no wires hooked up to it, then either the house is possessed by demons, or you are not telling us something you are doing wrong.

    How do you expect anybody to be able to help you if you don't answer the questions asked, but instead just say it is all correct? IT IS NOT

    You keep contradicting yourself, so either you don't understand the correct meanings of basic electrical terms, and basic proper wiring procedures, or you are being a troll.

  • paulfisher_94023
    7 years ago

    1-neutral to ground showed open on the fluke when I disconnected the ground from the sub panel in the main panel.

    2- yes it's not a normal problem. I will send you a picture if you want. FYI the gfci doesn't really check ground fault in the sense some people on here think. A gf I actually checks current leak. Somehow there is a current leaking, > 5ma that is being picked up by the gfci circuit breaker.

    Just had another idea, perhaps there is moisture Behind the bars the cbs sit on? I'll check this.

  • Fred S
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    "FYI the gfci doesn't really check ground fault in the sense some people on here think. A gf I actually checks current leak."

    Do you have a link to some sort of documentation for this voodoo theory? If that were the case, any time one GFCI in your house tripped because of a current leak, they ALL would trip.

    If the difference between the current leaving and returning THROUGH the current transformer of the GFCI exceeds 5 mA, the solid-state circuitry opens the switching contacts and de-energizes the circuit.

    http://m.ecmweb.com/content/how-gfcis-work

    The GFCI measures the DIFFERENCE in current between the hot and neutral that goes THROUGH the current transformer in the breaker. It can not sense a current that does not go through the current transformer.

    The GFCI may not reset if the main breaker is not turned back on first, or the LINE side neutral wire is not connected to the neutral bar yet, but it won't sense current leakage on a different circuit. If that were the case, how far away will it sense this "other" leakage? 100 feet? Your neighbor's house? The leakage in all the power transmission lines?

    Try this experiment, take the line wires off your doorbell transformer, and just wrap them around the transformer instead of hooking them up, and tell me if the doorbell still work ;)

    Or take your fluke and try to test for current without putting the wire INSIDE the current transformer.

    It is more likely that you just got unlucky with the new breaker being bad after the first one gave out.

  • paulfisher_94023
    7 years ago

    It could be a second bad CB I suppose. I did buy the thing from Home Depot. About a year ago I went through 3 plugs , 240v 4 prong, before finding every plug at Home Depot was defective.

    btw- I work with a few Kia's (know it alls). They would enjoy you guys . Anyway, any other ideas or suggestions?

  • Fred S
    7 years ago

    Honestly don't think it is possible for it to be anything else. Just don't get another breaker from the same place since it may be from the same batch.

  • PRO
    Dierks Designs
    7 years ago

    so , what I am facing is a cutler hammer br gfci breaker tripping when I just insert either a standard recepticle 3 prong tester or even a gfci plug in tester. However My 3 prong wired chop saw as well as my 2 prong shop vac will NOT trip brkr. I checked my testers on other gfci recepticles in the house and they worked fine. I am thinking it is the ground wire touching the neutral in one of the outdoor boxes as was suggested earlier...will know more tomorro when I explore each downstream box.

  • Ron Natalie
    7 years ago

    The way these testers work is that they typically have three neon bulbs connected HOT-to-NEUTRAL, HOT-TO-GROUND, NEUTRAL-TO-GROUND. The first two should light the bulbs and the last should not. A neon bulb typically draws less than a milliamp which should be less than the 6ma or so needed to trip the GFCI. Of course, the GFCI might be a little too sensitive or your tester passing a little too much current and you'd see this problem.

  • Dave G
    2 years ago

    Thanks for posting this. I had a very similar situation. GFCI/AFCI breaker, outlet tester read ok. However when load was applied to the circuit instant trip. This was has happening on 2 separate breakers next to each other in the panel. Turned out the neutrals were swapped between the two. You saved me possibly days. Thanks!

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