Oh Renee, I couldn't agree more. I'm tired of being bullied because my view is stated in a different way than another poster's. There is a very small minority who think their recipes or techniques are the be-all/ end-all, "ubiquitous, know-it-all approach with narrow-minded views" of the culinary world. That is when unpleasantness rears its ugly head. When that happens, it is unfair to the whole forum. I for one would have left this thread a few posts ago, especially when I realized that one particular member refused to see the passive/ aggressive nature of their posts, then devolving into personal attacks to other posters. It's difficult to not defend one's integrity when it's called into question. Imagine how you would feel if someone referred to you as condescending, superior, a liar, a know-it-all. I believe that everyone but one person in this thread has agreed to disagree. I, for one, appreciate the beautiful photos many of our talented contributors generously post. It certainly takes additional time on their behalf to photograph the food, choose the appropriate photo for their post, then to share it with everyone. I learn how to plate food to make it look more appealing. I don't find it competitive, I find it encouraging. I think it has given a lot of us in this digital age the impetus to become more artistic, not only in our food preparation, but also in the art of presentation. How is that ever a bad thing? I think the main spirit of this forum is quite pleasant - these kinds of threads are very few and far between. I think that there will be a few of us that will be checking back to make sure no one else is being treated unfairly. Lori

My guess is they the dough got too hot either in the oven or the water you added was too hot. An experienced bread baker can tell by the texture of the dough when working the dough if the yeast is alive. I would have tested the yeast you tossed in warm water with a bit of sugar.....and if ti didn'ts how proof of being active...I would have written Fleishman or Red Star a long sobbing letter telling about your ruined bread....and maybe you would have gotten a nice supply of yeast out of it. The yeast package says "store in a cool place" doesn't it? I think that might exempt your pantry. I keep yeast in the refrig or the freezer. Now you see how forgiving yeast dough can be? Ain't it fun?! Linda c

Sue- Is it the wisdom of the ages or science from the experts? This is what I've read from "experts" - I'm just the person sitting behind the keyboard typing after I've gathered a stack of books by my side. According to Shirley Corriher in "Cookwise", salt plays three roles in dough: It enhances flavor, controls bacteria, and strengthens dough by tightening gluten. She even suggests if the water you are using in your breads is soft (low mineral content), you'll want to be sure to add high-mineral salt - which are natural sea salts, not table salt. The minerals in natural sea salt also play into yeast activity. But what is too much salt... As little as 1/3 t. of salt per cup of flour can be enough to noticeably slow yeast growth. Salt can be added intentionally to slow yeast growth. More salt may be added to dough, such as in a bakery setting when you would want to slow down fermentation until the next shift of workers comes on. The small amount of salt we add to yeast and naturally-leavened breads doesn't really give a salty taste, nor does it contribute largely to the daily sodium intake in a normal diet or normal sodium amounts for people who aren't watching sodium intake, but salt helps to bring out the flavor of the fermentation. As anyone who has ever left the salt out of a recipe can attest, bread without salt is somewhat insipid - but that's because our taste is often trained to like salt and salty flavors. Then there's all the hub-bub about when to add salt. I wait to add salt towards the end of the kneading, along with the fat. I only add the fat early if I want a close crumb - or an almost cake-like texture (for sandwich bread as an example - breads that need to hold together when held in your hands and keep spreads from dripping through). The gluten will have an easier time developing, and will develop quicker (meaning you will need to spend less time mixing and kneading) when you wait to add the salt after gluten development. Once you add the salt, the gluten really tightens up. You can actually feel the difference in the dough. Peter Barham in "The Science of Cooking" says "...the salt acts to modify and control the action of the yeast. Harold McGee in "Keys to Good Cooking A Guide to Making the Best of Foods and Recipes" and "On Food and Cooking": Salt contributes to a balanced taste and intensifies aroma in bread, but it also affects structure and texture. Salt makes a dough less sticky, and gluten more stretchy, and the finished loaf lighter. In sourdoughs, salt helps control the growth of acid-producing, gluten-weakening bacteria. [So there's that bacteria mentioned by Shirley Corriher as well.] Salt isn't a leavening agent, but it helps control the leavening agent, as you thought. You can make perfectly good bread with very little or no salt at all (other than the naturally occurring salts in water, other ingredients, etc. - there is always a source for some sodium, even without added salt). But as one book pointed out, when it came to taste tests, people liked breads with more salt than less salt. As a person who doesn't use a lot of salt in their diet, I'd choose less salty flavor - so flavor is subjective. When using less salt in breads, you just need to watch the rise because it will be faster than normal. Peter Barham, in his book, intentionally made bread with lower salt amounts to see how little it could actually be, and he came to the conclusion you didn't need salt at all and that the bread tasted fine. "Fine" isn't what most people expect homemade bread to taste like, however. So you can use a long cold rise to develop flavors, instead of adding salt, or as much salt. And there is the old rule of thumb... If you reduce the salt in a bread recipe, be sure to reduce the yeast as well. So if you cut the salt by 50%, reduce the yeast by 50%. I was also taught in cooking and baking classes that a little salt makes sweet things taste sweeter, hence the ever-present "pinch of salt" in things you wonder what difference did that small amount actually make? There are a lot of factors to keeping bread fresh. Choose enriched breads and sourdough, instead of lean doughs. If you want your bread to stay fresh longer add fenugreek or rosemary because these ingredients are antioxidants, "they prevent oxygen in the air from combining with compounds in the dough, thus acting as a preservative by preventing chemical changes in the dough." I add an acid ingredient to whole wheat breads in the form of ascorbic acid, which is another antioxidant you can add to aid keeping bread fresher longer, but also counteracts the effects of Glutathione in wheat germ, which can damage the gluten strands. Yeast also works better in a mildly acidic mixture. But don't add an acid to naturally-leavened breads because they are already acid enough. My personal favorites for keeping bread fresher longer are coconut oil, agave nectar, and chia seeds - and you won't find these ingredients discussed in any books by "experts". Coconut oil was used in commercial baked goods until the mid-20th century because it helped lengthen shelf-life. As a medium-chain fat, coconut oil doesn't go rancid as quickly as polyunsaturated oils. When pressure was put on the market to use hydrogenated fats and polyunsaturated fats, the shelf-life was shortened, foods went rancid quickly, and they had to find new stabilizers and chemicals to use instead of coconut oil. Coconut oil was used for popping corn at the movies and sports stadiums. They popped large amounts long before it was needed and packed into containers to be used later, and using coconut oil in it kept it fresher longer. Nobody likes stale popcorn.... Coconut oil aids in slowing down mold growth as well. Agave nectar does an excellent job of holding moisture in baked goods, as does chia seeds. Both keep moisture in the crumb of breads from migrating through the crust, so they slow staling - which is an interesting read in and of itself. If you are going to freeze your bread, there is a lot of science about using honey in your breads instead of sugar. The honey will aid in keeping the moisture in the crumb, and I suspect agave nectar has a similar quality. Hope the experts have given you the answers you were looking for. -Grainlady

Hi Everyone~!! After reading all of the comment's on this thread I thought I would add our experience in hope's it will help someone. This happened several years ago with our 4 month old G.R. Murphy, we started noticing red rashes on his abdomen, after bathing him and trying simple things we took him in to our vet. We were told it was just a basic skin allergy that he had more than likely picked up from the Lake water and with medication and bathing it would clear up. It did not......after 2 year's of doing everything humanly possible to clear his skin including sending skin scraping's to U.C. Davis in Calif. , 3 different vet's, and a constant stream of extremely expensive medications, potion's and lotion's I intensified my research. I found an article that described everything Murphy was experiencing perfectly, I found a few more and all of them led to dog's being put down with no cure. Well I never give up so the one thing I found similar in every article was that it may be an internal parasite, so comparing all of the different medications came up with a list and started researching internal parasites and the medications that would kill them. After the process of elimination I found one Medication that neither I or any of the others had tried..........Interceptor. Unfortunately all of my research was lost with the computer I had done it on but the research paid off. I got the medication gave Murphy the chewy tablet and within 6 days his skin was beginning to clear, it is a once monthly treatment and by the 2nd. month all open sores had cleared, we were able to wein him off of all of the medications he was energetic and happy again. They have improved the medication and it is now called Interceptor Plus. Unfortunately all of the medications had taken a toll on Murphy's Liver and we lost him a year later. 6 years ago we brought a New Member of the Family home another G.R. , I had ordered the new Interceptor but it had not arrived yet and we saw the same rash..................................at that time they had stopped producing it while building a new plant so I was so desperate I had to order it from Australia told them the situation and they had it to my home within a week, gave Hunter his chewy and All is well. In closing I hope this info will help someone and remember Never Give Up~!!!!! Here is a link. Love to All. Jan. http://www.interceptorplus.com/