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Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

Posted by bluebird954 (My Page) on
Thu, Dec 10, 09 at 22:39

I have investigated prices and have found some real sickening things about PGT's prices.

This is what My brother-in-law quoted me on PGT Impact windows (He is Currently a window dealer and carries PGT, so I Won't mention any names.)

It is really disgusting that Pgt can sell these windows to their dealers and they mark them up so much. Why can't they pass the savings on to the customers and let us buy directly from the factory.

Luckily I got My windows from My brother in law at cost. Here is what the the break down is. This is what makes me so upset and at the same time...thankful.

All windows are white with Grey impact Glass.

PGT Impact Single Hung 12 $76.00 MY COST
List Price $287.00

PGT Impact Single Hung 23 $154.76 MY COST
List Price $560.20

PGT Impact Single Hung 33 $185.65 MY COST
List Price $616.57

PGT Impact Horiz Roller OX 72" x 38 3/8" $192.80 MY COST
List Price $642.60

PGT Impact Sliding Glass Doors XX 6068 $987.77 MY COST
List Price $1874.00

I Got (3) bids from reputable Local Window Companies on just the material portion of the 19 windows and doors that I needed to complete my house.

COMPANY #1 in Pompano 19 openings PGT materials Only $24,687.00

Company #2 in Deerfield 19 openings PGT materials Only $23,420.00

Company #3 in Broward/Miami 19 openings PGT materials Only $25,140.00

MY BROTHER IN LAW 19 openings PGT materials Only $9,343.00

I got My windows at cost what PGT really sells them for. I do not understand why they allow others to set their pricing for them when they should just offer the product directly to the public at fair prices.

Don't get me wrong, I am happy with my windows, just so thankful for my Brother in law to have saved me from over paying. I got all my windows and doors at 41% of list price, with full factory warranty. and that included sales tax too!!!

Shame on you PGT, Ok product, very lousy dealer Pricing.

Thank you Brother in law !!!!!!!


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

I've never understood why I am charged $30.00 for a steak dinner. It's maybe $4.00 for the steak, .50 for the potato and $1.00 for the salad. Shame on all the ranchers and produce wholesalers for allowing restaurants to mark-up the meal so much.

I also discovered the soda only costs about $.15 cents per glass. The restaurant charged me $1.75. Shame on Coca-Cola for allowing the restaurant to mark-up their product so much.


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

I had a co-worker who had impact windows installed in her house this past year. She also got quotes from a number of dealers, and was surprised at the range of those quotes. The differences in price appear to be due to what each dealer charges for installation, and also who is responsible for getting the permits required ( in Florida, anyway)for those windows.

Most of the dealers whose quotes were lower, she said, wanted the homeowner to obtain the permits, and of course, the homeowner would then be responsible for inspection fees at the completion of the job as well. The permits and inspections for the windows add several hundred dollars to the cost of those windows- not included in PGT's factory prices.

Also, installation of impact windows into existing window openings can get involved, especially if the openings must be made smaller, or enlarged to accomodate the impact windows. We had to modify the window openings in one of our rooms- even though it was new construction, and my co-worker had to have several openings ( windows and one French door)made smaller. In a house of CBS construction this involves putting in new concrete block ( including the Dade County hurricane code of rebar and concrete poured cells next to the window opening), stuccoing and painting. And those impact windows must be bolted into CBS on each side of the window opening. I'm thinking all this work involves quite a bit of material, and labor, and I doubt this comes cheap.

I'm glad you got a good price for your impact windows, and I hope even more, if you installed them yourself, or got someone else to install them on the cheap, you installed them correctly. If you didn't, those windows won't be worth a plugged nickel come the next hurricane......


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

Gee, I wonder why a low priced "contractor" would be so insistent that the homeowner obtain the permits and be responsible for the inspections?


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

BlueB, I agree, the markups DO sound a bit more than usual for construction materials, OTOH, PGT is an outstanding brand, they HAVE put the $$ into ENGINEERING their products, then put the $$ into TESTING their products, and MORE $$ to get the necessary Miami-Dade NOAs, FBC approvals, etc. to install them in HVHZs...

... you might say, "but that should show up in the WHOLESALE price to the dealers"... and I might (*cough*) suggest that there's some, umm, "rebates" back to the factory? =:O ... who knows.

I'm in the Pompano/NE-FLL area too, and my brother just this month had PGTs installed in every opening of his 1958 vintage all-leaky-jalousies CBS home in Oakland Park, and he paid the kind of prices you did, plus about $6,400 for a very professional installation. WOW!... what a transformation! They LOVE them. The small 2-man firm is in Plantation, FL... can get their name if you want.

In short, I think only the really lame pushover homeowners pay the "MSRP", especially in this down market. ;')

Do I understand you intalled the PGTs yourself? Did you pull a permit? Just curious, not a .gov "narc"... ;')

Gee, I wonder why a low priced "contractor" would be so
insistent that the homeowner obtain the permits and be responsible for the inspections?

LOL... no doubt because when you go to www.myfloridalicense.com you'll either find out very "interesting" things about them... or... discover that they are COMPLETELY ABSENT, i.e. never licensed for any related trade at any time.


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PostScript...

Among the many reasons why STOCKING dealers have to markup is:
a) storage space ain't free, and windows + their protective packaging, take up a heck of a lot of space; not to mention all the forklifts, trucks, and EMPLOYEES to move it about.

b) Dealers take the risk of getting "stuck" holding the bag when markets turn down (Hello!), or fads/styles change, etc.

c) Dealers get left holding the bag when contractors on "30 days net" go belly up, skip town, etc... they gotta average out all losses and build it into the price.

OTOH, in my bro's case, the competent installation contractor stocks nothing. They measured every opening, and PGT made up the units CUSTOM size--took about 4-6 weeks, IIRC. No middleman dealers involved.

Anyway, if you think there's actual price-fixing, collusion, or racketeering involved, push it w/ the Attorney General's office in Tallahassee... seem to remember they have a division just for the building/construction industry. Keep us posted. Thanks.


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

I will be building a home in Bluffton S.C Close to Hilton Head starting in spring Can anyone sell me a pgt window and door Pkg.? at close to cost Thanks Brian


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

Why would you expect someone to sell you a window and door package at "close to cost"?


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

More importantly, would you provide your company's services or products close to cost? I highly doubt it.


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

Great thread. I too want windows at close to cost. Honestly though, if the windows are custom made to order and a deposit is paid, that really minimizes the stock issue and the belly-up contractor issues.

The OP wasn't talking installation either. So he (and me) just want to buy the windows and a 15K profit seems a bit steep. If wholesale is 10k, I think me paying 12k is pretty reasonable if they are made to order (or PGT carries the stock) and I pay a 50% deposit.

So close to cost is a matter of opinion. I think most people expect a profit margin but for something like this, 120% markup seems quite high. I would think retail is something for contractor/installer types to charge. I think I was quoted something like that on another job and then no or very little install cost.

There of course is an online source for PGT that is easily found with a search engine. I'm going to check my local distributors but the online source is tempting even just for the tax difference (which of course will still be paid at the end of the year.)


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

I am still trying to figure out why noone is allowed to make any money selling a product. If as you say the product costing the supplier $10,000 and your going to be a sport and allow the supplier to "make " $2000, what about his cost of doing business? It probably cost him more than that by the time he is through selling you a product.


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

bluebird954.

I have not been in the window biz for may years, and can't say I remember the experience fondly, but I still buy a lot of windows for remodels and additions, so I can make you this deal. If you will....

1. Measure the windows,

2. Fill out the paperwork and wait for hours in line to get permits, arrange for all the inspections and wait around all morning or all afternoon for the inspector to arrive, and pay all the permitting, environment and licensing fees, and

3. Ensure that the windows meet all the requirements of any community covenants and/or historic or renewal districts, and of all applicable federal, state and local environmental, energy and building codes, and

4. Deal the the manufacturer to replace any windows you mis-measured or that were manufactured incorrectly, are missing parts, or were damaged in shipping, including the inevitable hold time of 25-45 minutes for each call to the warranty department, and

5. Take care of the installation, including the unexpected problems that arise such as badly out of square frames, frames and sills too rotten to install windows in, racked and bowed frames; all while not stepping on mama's prize roses, messing up the curtains or letting the dog out of the back yard, and

6. Properly remove and safely dispose of all the old windows and pay all the disposal, landfill and environmental fees, and

7. Comply with all the lead protection and abatement rules contained in the extensive EPA/RRP regulations (after you take the class to get certified), then

I will sell you any window you want for my cost + 15% and I'll show you my invoice.

You pay shipping, take care of unloading the windows from the truck (including the cost of truck waiting time if you don't unload fast enough), safely warehousing the windows until time for installation, un-crating, inspecting and sorting the windows, and job site cleanup.

Good luck, brother!


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

Very well put xoldtime!!!


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

Bluebird, thank you for sharing this information with us here. However, I have to say that it has to be a mistake here. I have worked with contractors and window companies in the past. I know the type of mark-ups they have to deal with. In a market like this, they cannot charge more than 35% mark-up, at max. I am hoping that you are comparing your window prices apples-to-apples. PGT has different lines of windows. Impact window costs twice the price of non-impact. I don't know in which town you got these quotes. They cannot be real. I know that in Broward and Miami-Dade counties, window dealers CANNOT charge anything near that. Both contractors and homeowners are very savy of the market prices.

Free markets DO NOT allow anyone to make such margins in a commodity product like windows and doors.


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

xoldtimecarpenter I think it is clear that they are talking about exclusively owner installation and just ordering windows.

The steak analogy does not work here. A steak dinner needs to be prepared and cooked. The table and dishes maintain. When a dealer orders they are just taking your measurements and ordering. Is that 200 dollars worth of labor? I think not. The reason that PGT want dealers is that most people are actually horribly stupid and do not know how to do any kind of research. Most people will go to a dealer and order....not knowing how to research for windows and order from PGT. Therefore PGT relies on sales people that are the dealers. I order things on line all the time. I order materials from suppliers all the time. The ordering and the receiving is really no big deal. It is in fact very exciting to receive stuff.

if you are trying to say that ordering and receiving is some kind of difficult labor extensive task your statement I have to say that your supposition is bogus.

Pulling permits to work on your own home is terribly ridiculous. Why do we need the government to oversee what I do in my own home. When i lived in puerto rico no one pulled a permit and year after year we get hit with hurricanes. If you want to be the author of your own demise then so be it. Permits should be restricted to pro working on someone else home or new construction by someone other than the owner. For thousands of years people build with no government intrusion. As far as people buying new home......well buyer beware. Every time the government touches something we get worse service and it becomes more expensive. That has to do with the idiocy of most people out there. The supply of stupid people is limitless...


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

The reason a manufacturer wants dealers is that they have a warranty. If you are a qualified dealer, the manufacturer knows that they can warranty the product and the dealer than installs it won't compromise the warranty. They cannot just sell stuff to any Joe Homeowner and offer a warranty. If they cannot warranty their product, they get a reputation for a crappy product that fails, since 99% of homeowner projects are complete hatchet jobs.

You absolutely cannot calculate the savings in money and aggravation to have a job done right.

In order for that to happen, there is the middle man/warehousing facility. Very rarely does any manufacturer of any product of any kind sell direct. And most of the time, places that claim to sell direct are full of crap, as there is still warehousing and shipping and all that.

Now if you have a brother in law that works for the factory, you can buy them out the back door, and you can put them in yourself being confident that you don't need a warranty, go for it, and good on you. That will never be the norm, should not be the norm, and it's for good reasons.

Also, while your be-itching about the window biz, please expand that to your shoes, which cost about $1 to produce, and your truck/car, which they assembled in about an hour, your shirt was about 45 cents, etc. The mark ups you pay out there are many times 1000% over what they cost to make. I'm surprised you think your getting ripped off in the construction trade. The fact that you made a big deal out of this kind of shows that you have no idea what you're doing.


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

Let's see, this months advertising bill-Over $3000, rent-over $1500, payroll-over $15,000. medical insurance premiums-over $2100, Unemployment insurance-over $1200, IRA contributions-over $3000, Liability Insurance over $1000. Other expenses- gas, vehicle maintenence, vehicle insurance, office telephone, cell phones, office supplies, etc. Oh, and that's before we pay any taxes or perform any warranty service. It's also before I take any income for the 70 hours a week I put in or re-invest money back into the company for growth.

Perhaps if you think a company can survive on a 20% mark-up, you can come and show us how it's done. I'd be willing to pay you huge bucks.

I always have one question for the genius's that "know" how much mark-up a dealer "should" make. How many business's have you run? I'm guessing none.


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

I have read trough these post and have only one comment.
All you people running a windows supply and installation business need to stop weeping about your cost to run a business and how you need to overcharge on the windows or product you are installing.

Any one that runs a business needs to know the cost of running it and the profit that is reasonable to make and charge for your LABOR accordingly, or get out. I run a profitable business and charge for my labor and knowledge NOT the product, that I can supply at my cost(without a markup as a convenience and to attract more clients), the client can supply or anyone can supply.
I'm not a product manufacturer and don't live of product markup but from my labor and expertise!

Has anyone seen a DR make a profit from the drug he prescribes? And yet we all know that Dr's make excellent money by just charging for their KNOWLEDGE and expertise. It is up to the wise client to shop for the drugs where he can find cheaper! And of course here like anywhere else we have businesses that are abusive. I was just quoted over $50 for a medicine that Walmart sold me for $3!

Lawyers is another good example some will charge you over $400 an hour but I'm sure they don't mark up the postage stamps they use or the long distance minutes etc. I get their invoices for these items before I pay them. They make their good money selling you their knowledge and experience! If they charge too much the market will take care of that automatically because there will be many others just as good that will charge lot less, if you know how to do your homework, and will take them out of the market by not getting much business if any.

So I believe the poster that stated the prices he purchased at in contrast to the offensive mark up some installers quoted did a great service to all future clients by waking them up. Thank you Bluebird.
GUYS DO YOUR HOMEWORK SO YOU CAN IDENTIFY THE NON REPUTABLE INSTALLERS.

And don't be afraid to get the permit if you need is no big deal and contractors, believe it or not, will mark it up sometimes 100% if they obtain it for you. As far as the warranty all reputable manufacturers will stand by it regardless of who install the product. Have you ever had a car under warranty not be serviced because you moved and are now going to a different dealer? I personally painted my house and the paint started to peal after 4 months and the manufacturer had my whole house repainted at their cost. It was a 20 yr paint warranty.

RESEARCH AND DO YOUR HOMEWORK and don't let contractors confuse you with all this talk about permits, EPA, product approval etc. All this info is easily obtained without much effort from the product itself or the internet.

GOOD LUCK!


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

Well said.

I am going to use this logic from now on and demand that the auto repair facility only charge me cost + 5% on their materials with no accounting for overhead, license, insurance, phone, uniforms, consumables, training, specialty tools, receiving and storing materials, etc.

I will just pay them for the know-how to fix the car and I don't think that $100 per hour for a mechanic is fair for a guy that didn't go to college.

I will give them $18 per hour.

Seems fair.


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

kimbo123, you have no idea what you're talking about.

My mother told me once, no one knows more about raising kids than the person that never had any.

Which reminds me of the old adage: the most dangerous amount of information is a little bit.

What you said about Drs and Lawyers was incorrect. You are misinformed, yet on a high horse about what you don't know. The rest is not worth responding to.


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

We are PGT distributors and the original poster is totally blowing smoke here.

We receive a consistent discount off the list price of a product line from PGT and the amount the OP claims to have purchased his windows for in term of the discount from the list price is all over the place.

He wrote that he purchased his windows at 41% off the list price and he gave us both the factory list and what he purchased the product for and if you do the math none of the purchase price he quoted are 41% from the list; most of the discounts are around 70%

PGT�s discount has never been anywhere close to 70% from list.


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

Just shows once again why people shouldn't believe everything they read on the Internet.

I do think I am making progress in getting our costs down so we can operate with a 20% markup as one poster suggested.


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

What do you think?


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

You are a terrible laundry sorter!


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

Will get to it as soon as I finish this siding job.


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

Well it's all a crap shoot anyway. Overhead is not equal, but what's fair is the question. A properly run business deserves profits but we have to compare after tax profits as this is what goes in the owners pockets. You can't look at the cost of a product to a business, add 20% and say that is enough. This is where the problems lie. A business with a building, employees, etc. may need a 100% markup to break even, so a 120% puts only 20% in the owners pocket. In this case an owner can discount up to 20% and still break even, but then where is the incentive to stay in business if you only break even. Even if you only want the base product & not installation the overhead is the same. Really, the window guys are in the installed window business because they can't compete with the the big box stores for the out the door window business. The only way to get a better deal is to know someone in the business who would sell you windows near their cost as a personal favor to you. The OP's BIL may have sold them at his 'cost' but in reality he sold them at a loss to a family member.


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

Lesson to be gathered from this statement...

"The OP's BIL may have sold them at his 'cost' but in reality he sold them at a loss to a family member."

Don't tell any of your friends you are a contractor or know how to fix cars. Your weekends will thank you later.


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

Ecostar,

Now that is contractor inventiveness at it's finest. But if you were to stand on the very top of the ladder you wouldn't have to stretch so far...

And then you could balance yourself by grabbing those wires with your right hand and use your left for working.


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

Those wires are my back-up safety plan. OSHA calls it an Emergency Action Plan or EAP. ; )


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

It is very simple. The answer is GREED. no reason whatsoever to charge the prices. This is why America and our country coupled with your president is crashing down. GREED, this will destroy us. it already has.
The manufacturing costs are so ridiculously low that if you knew this, you would vomit. the installers want to justify the mark up? There is no justification. Other than GREED. MOST OF THEM DO NOT HAVE A HIGH SCHOOL AND THEY WANT TO MAKE 20,000.00 on a 19 window instalation. This coupled with Mexican cheep work, makes GREED flourish.
Then we want to blame china. They are just playing us by what we are Greedy .


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

Case in point windowshopper, although not pushing his wares like a carpet bagger he will slam everyone who does legitimate business and probably will reappear with a cheap piece of crap product and tell us all why he can sell and install it so cheap. What a piece of crap that post is....


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

Oh my Goodness. I do not deal in impact windows, so I cannot comment on the pricing quoted here, but I can comment on why factory direct is not generally a sales method employed with regard to building materials. There are a lot of reasons for that. Most windows have a "list price" and a dealer might pay anywhere in the neighborhood of 35% to 70% of the list price, depending on his purchasing volume or even the pricing structure the manufacturer uses as a baseline. I have seen THAT all over the place. BUT, manufacturers do not have the time or resources to do all the detail work, measuring, hand-holding, credit terms or not, delivery to individual jobsites, warehousing of completed product until the end user can accommodate them on the jobsite, service after the sale, research on the front end, warranty claims on the back end. They would have to have a virtual army of customer service reps to handle anything more than a localized territory. (Imagine what THAT would do to the cost). So they sell to a much smaller field of dealers, and let the dealers deal with the minutia of the individual sale. I don't honestly know how the market for PGT windcws works, but in the custom wood window market, I can tell you, that I can work for as long as six months before a job is finally sold and ordered, and then be "on call" another six months until the house is finished to tie up lose ends. If you earn a commission, as I do, then it SHOULD pay well. I figure I lose 2 of those 6 months jobs for every 1 that I win. Not everyone can do what a window professional can do. I am curious if you will hold you brother in law responsible if your windows fail. I can tell you right now, builders and homeowners turn to the person they bought them from to make it right. There is a lot of liability in building products. Don't blame the pricing on the manufacturer. They have made sure that they have made a decent profit before the product ever leaves their factory.


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The thread which will not die!...

... Lulz.

Let me just add, as a savvy/burned buyer of rental props, that when a seller starts bragging about this or that upgrade (windows, pavers, HVAC, etc.), I then head straight over to the local AHJ Building Dept., and if I canNOT find permit records for such "work", I then start SLASHING my offer price, drastically. I flatly explain that they have EXPOSED me to the LIABILITY of tear-out and re-do, with the associated TRIPLE permit fees/fines.

All to "save" them $75. Smart. Farsighted. NOT!


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RE: Trying to understand PGT Window Pricing...Anyone?

fixizin, what the hell are you trying to say?


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