I'd put the sale on hold and research the window a bit more and maybe some other bids or try to upgrade to the vanguard or restorations

Well, the more research I do the more confusing everything gets. It seems to me that the easiest thing would be for a company to have a list of their product lines...this is not the case. Sunrise's website really only mentions the Essential line. I did find the "restoration" line website but no one is listed when I search for local dealers.
Tomorrow I will be calling the company I am using to get some clarification on the book that was given to me....listing the different "Glass Systems" and the "Apex Package". Everything has a lifetime warranty...so that is good. I just wonder if the difference in efficiency will even show up in my application.

Edit

This post was edited by davco on Tue, Dec 30, 14 at 19:49

davco - I understand your confusion around the research that you are doing for Sunrise windows. While Sunrise are a great window, and would certainly use them in my house (Vanguard or Restorations that is) they have a very convoluted market structure.

* The Essentials are the lowest quality window that Sunrise manufactures
* The Sunrise is their base model
* The Vanguard and Restorations are their top tier products

Not all Sunrise dealers will carry all of the products. For instance, one dealer may carry the Essentials and the Sunrise, but you will have to find another dealer that carries the Vanguard or the Restorations.

The Sunrise website has both the Essentials and the Sunrise brands. You will have to do a search for Vanguard or Restorations. As toddinmn has pointed out, I too would shy away from the Essentials.

Good luck!

Ditto to bpchill.
If possible, if contact the dealer about upgrading to the base Sunrise at minimum. The difference will be found less in the u factor (it will use the same glass options) but in the quality of the design and build of the window as a whole

Thanks for the help guys. After doing more research I know:

1. There are no "Restorations" dealers in my area.
   2. I'm pretty sure that the company I am using is the only Sunrise dealer in the area.
   3. Most window places around me are the $169-$179 per window type place.
   4. My dealer is a "Vanguard" dealer (according to www.vanguardwindows.com).
   5. I talked to the sales guy last night and he told me that three of my window options are all "Essentials" with different add-ons (Different glass packages). Its like buying a car and adding the technology or luxury package. They offer an "Apex" package but I couldn't find out the model of sunrise used in the Apex package.

I certainly don't want to have something terrible installed on my house (I will live here until I die). At the same time, I don't need the most expensive window available. This model is more efficient than my 35 year old wood windows that have been painted shut. They also have a lifetime warranty. What am I missing out on by going with Essentials?

Let me see if I can attach a picture of my options....stay tuned.

Here is a picture from the brochure. These are my sunrise options. If you click the picture it will have the correct orientation and you can actually read it. Sorry for the quality...my scanner has some issues so I had to take a picture with my phone.

davco - Have your contractor provide you a cut away window sample of both the Essentials and the Restorations - you will quickly see the difference. You are only focusing on the glass package when there are other design features that you are ignoring.

I will be blunt to avoid you misery in the future. Should you decide upon the Essentials...these windows are perfect for someone that flips houses or are looking for replacement windows in a garage. You mentioned that you will be in your house until you die - not knowing your age - if you are 70 - 80 years old....go with the Essentials. If your life expectancy is far greater....go with a better window.

Good luck!

bp has you squared away.

The Essentials is not a window for a primary residence if you ask me.

I realized earlier that I was focusing on the glass packages do I contacted the dealer about Vanguards. I was told it will raise the cost about $350/window (average). I want to talk about Standards but it seems like The dealer doesn't understand what I'm talking about.

Right now I am waiting to meet the sales guy and see a literal window of each line that they carry.

Ok...finally have some clarification. Originally the sales guy gave me a price of $11,400. I asked which glass system it was and he circled the "Apex". Evidently that was mistake.
The $11,400 was for Sunrise Standard windows. The price was dropped to $9800 for the Essentials. According to the dealer this change means there is no polyurethane in the frames and the locking mechanism is different. He said you can't visually tell a different between the two.
I will be looking at the windows this Friday. I can pretty much tell you I don't want to spend the money on Vanguard but I might be willing to go up to the Standard.

The Vanguard is a "supercharged" version of a very good window. The Sunrise is is the Mustang GT, and the Vanguard is the Cobra. I'd like to compare the Essentials to a v6 in purple or something like that, but truthfully its not even the same window. It's more of a Mustang II....

Sunrise has a great reputation due to their high performimg products. The Essentials (IMHO) is somewhat of a cash grab, similar to the way that Pella put their name on an entry level vinyl window but many folks just buy it based on the name. Sunrise is not as well known of course, but it still provides an entry level option for folks that don't see the value in buying a better product.
My advice would be the Vanguard as the best investment, with the Sunrise as a good choice if numbers don't work. Taking the position of "well anything is better than my old windows" is not a wise one for the long term. I see "builder grade" and entry level windows replaced in 10 years or so daily. Sure they have a lifetime warranty, but it doesn't cover air leakage and or the array of other issues that that can cause dissatisfaction that are not considered factory defects.

Whoa buddy....now you have insulted my car?

Ha. Mustang II....I respect those that love them....but why would you love them?
HomeSealed, you are the first person to give an example of a problem with the Essential (air leakage). The sales guy gave plenty of examples of the issues with vinyl windows (builder's grade and other options from Big Box stores) and showed how the Sunrise is built different to ensure lasting satisfaction. What exactly is the difference between the essential and sunrise? More than I listed above?
The Vanguards would be amazing but I just don't see it working out right now. It's like seeing someone buy a foxbody and pouring 18k into it. I love it and it would be amazing but wow that's a lot of dough for a fox. I love my house and hopefully plan to live here for 50-60 years....but not sure if an increase of $5600 is worth it for me.

davco - $5600 spread over 25 years (anticipated life expectancy of a good window) is $224 per year - I spend more on coffee per year :)

The Sunrise window is a better window than the Essentials, as I personally have seen them side by side. I have a Sunrise dealer right up the street from me.

Yes....a Sunrise dealer that does not handle / sell Vanguard or Restorations will give you the deer in the headlight look if you ask them about it.

Yes you can change things on cars to make them better, but if you had a car manufacturer that used a wood frame (Essentials) versus a manufacturer that used a steel frame (Vanguard / Restorations), would you really want to pour the money into the car with a wood frame?

Good luck!

This post was edited by bpChiIl on Thu, Jan 1, 15 at 0:03

The price spread of $5600 is the difference between the Vangard and the standard Sunrise window not the Essential. This would be more like comparing a Toyota Avalon to a Lexus ES350 that gets 1/2 mpg better. Can't see the price difference being worth it even at 1/2 the difference unless there are some features you just must have.

Thanks for all the input guys. I have put the purchase in hold until I see actual samples tomorrow. I do think that upgrading from essentials to sunrise will be the move I make. I'd be satisfied with an Avalon :).

BpChill--what kind of things eventually go wrong with these types of windows?

I don't think any of us have a problem with the base Sunrise, just that the Vanguard is better. As bpchill demonstrated, a few thousand dollars is a few thousand dollars no matter what, but the service life of the purchase should be accounted for as well to put things into proper perspective. If your budget allows for the vanguard I'd go that route. If it is far and above what you can afford, the base sunrise will still serve you well.... I cannot say the same about the essentials though.

Regarding what goes wrong, a flimsier window will essentially deteriorate faster. Not in the sense that it will rot like wood, but warpage of frame and or sash members (frowning of the sill, warpage at the meeting rail, etc). The aforementioned overall leakiness. Again, while some of these issues may be covered under warranty, it can be a real annoyance to have to deal with warranty service year after year..... Like having to keep taking that mustang into the shop.
The stronger the window is, the longer it will last and maintain a high level of performance.

Maybe I'm wrong here but the Sunrise "Sunrise" window is the same window as the Vanguard/Restorations minus some fancy locks, foam filled frames, maybe sash reinforcement? Can't really see recommending the Vanguard at a 150% premium even if one could afford it. The service life should be the same as these windows are built on the same chassis, in the same factory, the sash reinforcement( at the right price0 would be a recommended upgrade on all vinyl windows and something worth looking into.

I will see tomorrow but the sales guy is telling me that the only real differences between the "essentials" and the "sunrise" is polyurethane foam filled frames and inset locks on the sunrise.

I haven't even seen or asked the differences between the "sunrise" and "vanguard".

Maybe i'm confused then,if they are indeed the same then I'd take the Vanguard or get prices on some other brands.

My comments about how long the window will last are directed primarily at the essentials which is NOT the same chassis as the others.

As I explained previously, the sunrise and vanguard ARE the same, with the vanguard having multiple upgrades. The biggest thing for me between the two is the sash reinforcement, which if I'm not mistaken gives the window a fair bump in design pressure rating (structural integrity). The sunrise is very slim lined window, so I prefer it with the reinforcement if possible (vanguard). If they now offer the base sunrise with reinforcement that would solve that problem, but I don't recall that being the case.
The vanguard upgrade should not be a 150% premium. Maybe the sunrise is prices low or the vanguard high, but that difference is steep and if this is the same dealer I'd try to negotiate on that

There is in fact a large spread price between the Sunrise and Vanguard - I have quotes for both. Sunrise in general is a bit more expensive overall - in fact my source tells me that Sunrise took 15% in pricing in 2014

The more I read the more I begin to doubt the integrity of my sales guy. Here is a link to the brochures for the sunrise and essential:
http://www.sunrisewindows.com/about-us/download-a-brochure/

Differences that I notice (besides the multiple options on the sunrise):
1. Sunrise has polyurethane filled frame
2. Sunrise has different locking mechanisms
3. Sunrise ultraU glass (4 packages). Essentials has Power E glass.
4. Sunrise has "Maxedge" technology. Essentials has"SureEdge" spacer technology.

My sales guy never gave me an "Essentials" brochure. Only a "Sunrise" brochure. Tomorrow should be interesting....I have a feeling it could be like watching a deer in the headlights.

davco - going back to your OP and comparing that to the brochures, it looks as though your dealer led you astray, as the Apex package is an option package only available in the Sunrise line and the Power E is the ONLY option for the Essentials line

"Ultimately, we were given a price of $11,600 to replace our 16 windows (4 of which are 73"x36"). This was for the "Apex" package.

After talking for a while we went with what is labeled "Ultra-U Plus Glass system" ... the biggest difference being it had only 2 panes of glass instead of 3 and the frame is not filled with polyurethane (U-Factor difference is .07, SHGC difference of .06). Once the paperwork was filled out I noticed the windows are labelled "Sunrise Essential".

I would hope that this is an honest mistake on your contractor's part.

bpChill- I agree with you on the apex and the possible honest mistake. I asked the sales guy about it and he said it was a mistake on his part. One weird thing is the order form that he filled out listed "essentials" as the model and the glass type checked was UltraU .... Which isn't even available on the Essentials.
So the question is this: what did I buy?

So the question is this: what did I buy?

davco - That is a question that only your contractor could answer.

I am a betting man....I would bet that you purchased the Essential windows (with the standard Power E glass package) as that is what you stated as to what was noted in the contract.

With all due respect....Is Sunrise the only line that he sells? If so, he should know his line inside and out, and like the back of his hand.

Yes, he should know his products like the back of his hand. This is why we will be having a serious conversation tomorrow. I'll update when I know more. I can tell you this: I won't be buying Essentials.
Hopefully this all boils down to being a few honest mistakes (not likely). I made decisions based on incomplete and incorrect information. They will need to prove the products and help me feel confident in their company. They haven't and I dont.
Thanks to you guys for helping me research deeper and learn more. I would have gotten ripped off without the help of this forum.

Great!!!

Hopefully everything can be cleared up and you can move on with your project. Even if you have to get the Sunrise windows, they are a far cry better than the Essentials.

Good luck!

I don't think the rep was being straight with you. As has been said previously, he should know his product line and there is a huge difference between the bottom of the barrel Essentials and the upper middle grade basic Sunrise.

I know it sounds harsh, but this is a big purchase, so it boils down to this for me: If he doesn't know the difference, I'd avoid using him because he's incompetent. If he does know the difference, I'd avoid using him because he's dishonest. In other words, I'd move on to someone else.

ultrawindows--I agree that it seems like my rep was misleading me to make a sale. It is also possible that I am paying a premium price for a subpar product. I'll have to get to the bottom of it tomorrow.
One problem is this is the only Sunrise dealer in my area. If I don't go with Sunrise then I'll have to research a different brand. Annoying.

bpchill makes some great points.
davco, I kind of get the feeling you are looking for us to validate an irresponsible purchase which of course you wont get here.. the fact that the title of your post is ' just purchased sunrise Essentials, need piece of mind" kind of tells us you already knew the Essentials was a sub par product but decided to roll the dice anyway.. I don't think the dealer or salesman is to blame here.
bottom line, quality comes at a cost.

This post was edited by mmarse1 on Fri, Jan 2, 15 at 15:57

First of all, Sunrise makes deciphering the different lines and options they offer difficult - leading to confusion and mistakes. Second, the sales rep in this situation muddied the waters further by offering the OP a glass package that doesn't go with the window he was offering (Essentials), so let's cut the OP some slack here and try to be helpful, I'm sure he/she feels bad enough already.

For the OP, I'd rather see you go with Simonton (5500 or 9800) than the Sunrise Essentials. The Essentials is not worthy of consideration.

mmarse1 -- I can appreciate an honest opinion and I can see how my title would make it appear as if I purchased the essentials knowing that they were sub par. Unfortunately, that was not the case.
1. I never saw an Essentials window in the presentation.
2. I was never given an Essentials brochure.
3. The word "Essentials" was never communicated to me by the seller.
4. I was led to believe that I was purchasing a window described by the brochure given me (Sunrise).
5. When cost became a subject line I was led to believe that I could use a different glass package and save a little money. The different glass package (still in the Sunrise Brochure) also changed the frame and locks (I didn't understand why...it is just what was communicated).
6. The first time I saw the word "Essentials" was when it was written on the order form.
7. I did a web search and found out that the "Essentials" was sub par (based on the opinions on this forum).
8. This led to the creation of this post.

Word picture time: It would be like having a car salesman offer me a 2003-04 cobra (Terminator). The price seems high so I ask about all my options and he says, "Well, I can get you one without the word 'cobra' on the back and the snake on the seats". We make the deal and he fills out the paperwork for a Mustang GT. The problem isn't that I bought a GT, the problem is I bought a GT based on incomplete information....there are many differences in the 03-04 cobra and the 03-04 GT (engine, supercharger, IRS, fog lights, rear bumper, rear spoiler....)
Is the seller completely to blame? No. I blame myself for agreeing on purchasing windows based on the word of the seller alone. Fortunately, I do my research. It was a little later than it should have been but I have done my research. Today I canceled the order and am weighing all my options.

Tough crowd. I think most of understand why a homeowner would be confused, it's not always easy sifting through all the options and lines of windows.

Right on Todd.

Good choice davco, take a minute to digest everything and explore your options. As stated above, this is not an insignificant investment.

Loved those Cobras btw. Used to run a modded 01 z28 and they were always tough

Unfortunately - davco doesn't have ultrawindows, todd, Eric, Brandon, or mmarse locally to help him out :)

Tough crowd....maybe, but a lot of knowledgeable window pros here.

davco - let these guys guide you with their wealth of knowledge as you determine your next brand of windows, should you change your mind about Sunrise.

Love the Cobra whine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUkGiynqupM

Can't add much that hasn't been said already.

Just wanted some more car talk.

Here is a link that might be useful: Terminator Blower Whine

HomeSealed -- You should have posted some pics of the z28. I'm more of a mustang person (I'm sure its obvious) but I've never been big on the ford vs chevy, blah, blah, blah talk. I like everything.

windowsonwashington -- That whine is amazing. I've always loved that body style and the Terminator (Mach1, too) but could never justify spending the dough.

I had a 99 cobra. Here is an old video I posted a long time ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCycXQl1_JY

This thread has officially gone off topic.

Now this is a top I can get behind.

She sounded great by the way davco!!!

That does sound nice!... I'm like you davco, a car guy with appreciation for a nice ride regardless of brand, I've just always trended toward f-body's. I actually had a couple fox bodies, one notch back and another that I built up as well (heads, cam, etc), but the Z was my favorite... One of these days I'll try to dig up some old pics. Cam, tune, 3400 stall convertor and typical intake/exhaust mods it ran low 12's. Mid 11's on a dry 100 shot... And that was with street tires and the stock 2.73 rear end... Those were the good old days before kids, lol, although I did bring my first born home from the hospital in that car.

You had a Notchback HomeSealed? That is one of my favorite cars but I too am a GM apologist.

Low 12s and mid 11s on a stock 2.73 rear end....wow that is awesome. Why no gears?

I had a 1988 foxbody gt and my 99 cobra. Never took them to the track (the fox was a work in progress). Sold the fox because I didn't have time for it and sold the cobra because kids, time and money. My next car will be a notch. I can probably get a nice one for less than windows in my house will cost me (see how almost got us back on topic).

That is a good looking Fox body.

Nice indeed... Cobra rims and LX tails. I was never a fan of those GT tail lights.
The notch I had was kind of a rat that I got in a barter deal. Sold it to buy a nice, clean LX shell that I that I transplanted a drivetrain into. Redone short block, Trick flow heads and cam, etc. Sold that thing shortly after I got it running to buy a new work trailer back in the day, lol.

...but back on topic, yes, you can still probably find a pretty clean notch for a good bit less than the window project, lol.