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izzie_gw

condensation on windows

izzie
16 years ago

Had new windows installed. Old ones were wood and rotted. New ones are vinyl. Live in Minnesota Anyway, I am getting a small amount of condensation on windows, but much better. Can someone answer a question regarding humidity. I have never tested it in my home. I have an exhaust fan in bathroom. Kitchen range hood does not exhaust to outside. I don't really cook that much. I know the air usually feels really dry. How can people have humidfiers on their furnaces without totally icing up their windows as opposed to someone who does not run a humidifier and gets condensation. (or maybe people with furnace humidifiers do have condensation problems) Is it because the furnace humidfiers put out a steady and lower amount of humidity as opposed to showering and not running bathroom fan puts to moisture too fast into the air? I do occationally run a small room humidifier if someone is sick and need the extra humidity.

Has anyone tried to stop the condensation on windows and had any luck? What did you do to fix things? Also please include the area where you live.

Comments (3)

  • oberon476
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Izzie,

    About this time every year your question comes up - and not just on line.

    Anyway, here is the long version which is intended to (hopefully) start a discussion...

    You have interior condensation on your new windows simply because the surface temperature of the window is below the dew point temperature of the air in your homethatÂs itÂa very simple explanation.

    Unfortunately, as to why the surface temperature of your window (glass) is below the dew point temperature of the air in your home may be a bit more complex  so I am going to offer a few thoughts and maybe even throw in a few numbers that I hope might help your situation.

    In the summer, when you pull something cold and refreshing out of the refrigerator, and the air is warm and humid, that cold and refreshing beverage container suddenly and quite magically becomes instantly wet  just as soon as it is exposed to the air. What has happened is that the temperature of the container fresh from the refrigerator is below the dew point temperature of the air  which has caused condensation on the outside of that container.

    What happens to your windows in the fall and winter is that the surface of the glass is below the dew point temperature of the air in your home  which is causing condensation on the surface of that glass.

    Dew point is defined as saturation vapor density...or put in simpler terms, when the air reaches 100% relative humidity and can hold no more moisture.

    Relative humidity is, well, relative.

    Relative humidity is a comparison of the actual vapor density versus the saturation vapor density at a particular temperature. Put a bit more simply, dew point is 100% relative humidity or the point where the air - at that temperature - is no longer able to hold any more moisture. If the air has reached vapor saturation (100% relative humidity), then the air will release moisture...be it on the outside of that cold beverage container in the summer time, or be it on the interior glass surface of your windows in the winter time, it makes no difference. If the surface temperature happens to be below freezing, then that moisture becomes frost or even ice.

    In order to stop condensation from forming on the surface of a window, you either have to lower the dew point temperature of the air in your home to a level below the dew point temperature of the window surface, or you have to warm up the window surface to a temperature above the dew point temperature of your home, or a combination of both.

    Lowering the relative humidity of the air in your home may have absolutely no effect on controlling window condensation or it may completely solve your problem  depends on how you lower the relative humidity and what affect the "how" has on both the moisture level of your air and the temperature of your windows. All this because there are two ways to lower relative humidity  first, you can increase the air temperature in your home or second, you can decrease the moisture content of the air in your home.

    By increasing the air temperature in your home you will lower the relative humidity but you will not change the dew point  which is based on the amount of water vapor in the air and is not based on the temperature of the air. So, while the RH is lower with higher air temperature, it may not effect condensation on window surfaces at all  unless the rise in air temperature also caused a corresponding rise in window glass temperature to a level above the dew point temperature.

    But, lowering the amount of water vapor or moisture in your air will lower the dew point temperature as well. And if it lowers the dew point temperature sufficiently to drop it below the temperature of your window glass  no more condensation issues.

    The amount of moisture in the air is measured in grams per cubic meter, which is kind of nice for our metric folks but not so nice for our non-metric folks; but the metric version is much easier on the calculator than the English version. However, in the interest of making this stuff easier to understand for all of us non-metric types, I am going to use Fahrenheit rather than Celsius temperatures in the calculations.

    Okay  consider your home at 65 degrees F and with a relative humidity reading of 40%. There are 6.25 grams of water in a cubic meter of air in your home in that particular scenario - which then equates to a dew point temperature of 38 degrees F. So at 38 degrees the air will be at 100% relative humidity or at saturation vapor density.

    Now, if your neighbor keeps her house at 75 degrees, but she also has 6.25 grams of water per cubic meter in her air, then the relative humidity in her home is 29% - versus your 40%. But, and hereÂs the kicker, the dew point temperature in her home is still 38 degrees.

    While the relative humidity in her home is much lower than is the relative humidity in yours; if the surface temperature of the windows in her home is 35 degrees she will have condensation on those windowsÂyet if the surface temperature of your windows is 40 degrees  only five degrees warmer  you will not have condensation on your windows.

    So, while her handy humidity gauge reads (correctly) only 29% RH Â she has a condensation problem.
    While your handy humidity gauge reads (correctly) 40% RH Â you donÂt have a condensation problemÂSWEETÂwell, for you anyway, not her.

    If your home hygrometer measures the relative humidity in your home at 60% while the temperature of your home is 70 degrees, you will have a dew point temperature of about 51 degrees  meaning that if the temperature of the window surface is below 51 degrees then you will have condensation - so now we talk a little more specifically about windows.

    The interior surface temperature of a single lite of glass, when the temperature outside is 0 degrees F and the inside air temperature is 70 degrees, will be about 16 degrees.

    Add a storm window on the outside and the surface temperature of the inside lite jumps up to about 43 degrees  a huge improvement.

    But these are center-of-glass readings and not the temperature readings at the edge of the window where condensation usually forms. A typical clear glass dual pane window is going to have center-of-glass temperature reading pretty much the same as a single pane with a storm  something that is often claimed (correctly) by folks who advocate refurbishing windows rather than replacing (something that I am not going into here  I am NOT advocating either replacement or restoration in this post. It is long enough and detailed enough already without opening that particular can-of-worms!)Â
    However, if that dual pane has a LowE coating and an argon gas infill then the center-of-glass temperature will be about 57 degrees  a 14 degree improvement over a clear glass dual pane or a single pane with storm window  but again, and more importantly, there will be a comparable edge of glass improvement as well, particularly if the IGU (Insulating Glass Unit) was manufactured using a warm edge spacer system. Also, the dual pane is going to have desiccant between the glass layers. Desiccant absorbs moisture keeping the inside of the dual pane system very dry.

    The advantage? If it gets cold enough outside, the temperature in the airspace between the lites can get very low. By keeping that space dry, it helps to keep the dew point temperature very low as well; something not always possible when using a single pane and storm window.

    Oddly enough, a single pane with a good and tight frame and sash assembly may be more prone to condensation than will a less tight single pane window simply because air (and moisture) will leak out of the looser window while the tighter window may be more likely to trap the moisture inside the home. And, while a tight storm window can help the interior lite to avoid condensation (when compared with a single lite and no storm), the storm window itself may frost up when the temperature is low enough  at a temperature usually well above the temperature that will cause the dual pane to ice up. It is unavoidable given the right circumstances

    So what does a window temperature of 57 degrees mean? Well, as I mentioned earlier a home kept at 70 degrees with a 60% relative humidity has a dew point temperature of 51 degrees so it is much less likely that there will be condensation problem on those particular windows than there would be with a less energy efficient window - despite the relatively high relative humidity in the home.

    But, there is always a "but"Â

    Again, that 57 degree glass temperature is still a center-of-glass reading and the edge of glass temperature will be lower - actual temperature is dependent on both the spacer system used in the IG unit construction and on the material used to construct the sash. So even with a "57 degree" center-of-glass temperature it is still possible to get window condensation if there is enough moisture in the air.

    And consider that the interior glass temperatures are based on the fact that moving, warmer, indoor air is actually in contact with the glass at a given time. Curtains, shades, other obstructions can cause problems by blocking airflow across the glass  airflow that can have a huge effect on the condition of the window relating to condensation. Also, bay and bow windows can be more prone to condensation  again because of the possibility of decreased airflow over the glass.

    And finally, what can happen to the dew point if you keep your home at 70 degrees and you have a 65% relative humidity? Well, for one thing the dew point has jumped up to 57 degrees which we have already noted is the same as the window temperature. For another thing, anyone with 65% relative humidity in a home at 70 degrees has way too much moisture in their air and they are in serious need of some sort of ventilation system  or at least several good exhaust fans!

  • breenthumb
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Izzy, are your new windows double paned with low E and argon? I'm assuming they are, since I've never even heard of single glass replacement windows, and low E and argone seem pretty standard now instead of the upgrade they used to be--they've moved on to even more spectacular upgrades LOL. So the first thing I'd do is get a hygrometer or two from HD or Walmart. (I got one for DD last year at Walmart for I think under $3.00--she had humidity/mold problems).

    Move them around, including window sills, till you know what your real humidity levels are in different areas. For example, I keep a thermometer/hygrometer in my garden window (always the coldest because it protrudes from house) and right now it is 63degrees/28% humidity. 20 degrees outside and falling--and windy. No condensation ever. And we haven't had any condensation on ANY of our replacement windows in the several years we've had them.

    Once you have an actual reading you'll know if your house is really too humid which would produce condensation, or if there is a problem with your windows--in which case, of course call the installer. Sandy

    One more example: Lots of cooking here this Thanksgiving. House was warm but cold outside. The only windows with condensation were on the back door which hasn't been replaced yet. It has single pane windows and leads to an enclosed but unheated porch.

  • saskatchewan_girl
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We purchased our home approx 3 yrs ago and couldn't believe the condensation that winter. Well this summer we bought a de-humidifier and the difference is amazing!!!
    No more ice at the bottom inch, no more water puddling on the ledge, no more condensation at the top & running down the window. I love it.........best $150 I spent on the house. No more DAILY window washing or using a hair dryer to melt the ice INSIDE my window!! These windows were installed brand new the year we bought, so I think they were helping with sealing up the place.
    As you can see I kinda live in an extreme winter area LOL but it works for me : )