On the glass for Andersen is Low-e 4. It is self cleaning glass feature. It is exclusive to Andersen at this point, but the tecnology will probably be available to others at some point. It's pretty cool. Also, they put a plastic film on both surfaces of the glass to protect throughout construction. It comes off a day or two before you move in for clean, unscratched glass. You can see more on this on their web site. As far as Andersen vs. Marvin, both of the windows you are looking at are excellent. Andersen is the largest, oldest window manufacturer in the world. If you want unbiased data go to Hanley Wood Products web site. They do an annual survey of it's Builder Magazine subscribers. They survey them on every component that goes in to a house. Andersen was rated #1 in every category. Best quality, brand used most often, brand familiarity and brand used in the last two years. There is a reason why Andersen has been around for over 100 years-they make the best windows in the world. Feel confident knowing that in Andersen's 100+ year history, they have never made a window that you can't still get parts for, with a few rare exceptions. That's pretty important. With regards to the framer installing the windows, it can be hit or miss. There are a few basic things they need to follow for a good install. I would talk to them and if they don't have a good plan, perhaps explore a second option for installation. Since it's the last thing they do before they get paid, some rush through that process and leave some problems behind. Some also do a great job. Be careful. Don't worry about protecting the interiors during construction, they will be fine. Obviously I am an andersen proponent. Good luck with your project.

The only problem I've seen as a builder is that anderson either uses vinyl or a roll form aluminum that conducts moisture to the interior thereby promoting rot. Marvin uses in their windows a Pultrudes aluminum, think Quater vs. a dime in thickness, and none of it touches the wood.
Marvin never fades in color because of it's kynar finish. The warranty is great 10 years on the hardware and 20 on the glass vs. seal failure and insulation. Marvin also makes a line called Integrity that is stock sizes and made of pulltruded fiberglass, called Ultrex. Go to MARVIN.COM and INTEGRITY.com

Andersen makes two different 400 series double-hungs, a Woodwright and a Tilt-Wash. They are very different windows. The Tilt-Wash is not in the same league with the Marvin Ultimate Double-Hung since it has a PVC compression jamb and no sash cladding so I will assume you are talking about the 400 Series Woodwright.

As an architect, I have always avoided Andersen windows for reasons of poor detailing especially at the sill but I think the Woodwright is a very impressive window and it has a great sill. I don't know how long the new plastic and wood fiber (Fibrex) cladding will last and the lack of color choices is sometimes a problem but it is detailed extremely well. Marvin, on the other hand, seems to have forgotten how to make a sill relying on an ugly reglet at the sill nose to act as a drip. I can never understand where these companies get their design ideas ... not from architects or waterproofing experts I can assure you.

The Marvin Ultimate Double-Hung is made with an aluminum cladding system so well designed that it should be considerably more expensive than the Woodwright so the pricing you quote is surprising.

Although I can find nothing wrong with the Woodwright if you like one of the colors (except the risk of ordering thru Home Depot - get written verification that Andersen got the order) I would probably choose the Marvin Ultimate DH because you appear to be getting an incredible price and Kynar on aluminum has the best track record of any cladding material exposed to the weather.

But you should definitely consider how the windows look and feel to you since they're both acceptable windows.

For installation, I always instruct the contractor to use the Jeld-Wen instructions that call for using sill flashing in the rough openings and then putting the windows in and flashing their frames to the sheathing (not the underlayment) with Vycor or butyl tape being sure to cover the fin-to-frame joint and allow drainage at the bottom. A surpising number of contractors tell me that's the way they install windows now.

I have searched for the best windows for homes for forty years and have not found them but I have learned through painful experience to not rely on the opinions of window sales people and builders.

Heat should not cause a problem during installation. Our Marvin's were installed in 95+ degree September heat without problems. Humidity varied from 28% during hottest part of day to 90+% at night when sea breeze and dense fog kicked in. It then took us two months, Oct through Nov, to stain everything. It started to rain mid-October and continued on and off through Thanksgiving and we finished staining by Thanksgiving, no problem at all. I belielve Andersen should behave the same.

All our windows and doors have no grille so cleaning is easy. We use a soft squeeze/scrap tool from a window shop. It has an extension handle so we can reach the second floor. *DO NOT* buy any cheap similar tools from elsewhere because the fibers can scratch up the glass. We also use distill water and car soap. The distill water leaves no spots.

Our Marvin dbl-hung and French doors face southwest so they receive intense summer heat and sun and suffer nasty Winter storms. So far, they are like new after three years.

Our experience with the Kynar coating has been positive. Winter wind whipped gravels onto the lower half of our French doors. Luckily, the tempered glass held and the Aluminum surface has no scratches, at least not that time. The doors have taken many hits by softballs, footballs, soccer, frisbees and crashing kites. So far, so good. Just in case, we protect the doors now from gravels with large heavy planter boxes. We just hope our children do not one day land a heavy sharp metal object on the doors, it will for sure leave a nasty scratch, Kynar or not.

We looked at Andersen as well and they looked good. So you cannot go wrong with either.

The Andersen windows I have been looking at are tilt-wash. The Woodwrights are way out of budget. For tilt-wash 3050 Dh with SDL on top sash only, about $410, Marvin Ultimate about $440, Woodwright, nearly $600.

I haven't seen a Woodwright, but no use, since it is out of budget.

The glass options are what keep the tilt-wash Andersens in the picture. The have one option with a second reflective surface that brings the SHGC down to the low 20s, and they have the "self clean" glass. Marvins don't have either of these options.

We looked at the Integrity windows, they have the same compression PVC setup as the Andersen tiltwash, but much less wood, and my wife was unable to tilt the windows because it takes some strength pulling in latches on both sides at the same time. She could handle the Andersen tilt just fine, and the Ultimate was even easier.

The Ultimates have weatherstripping that probably has to be replaced from time to time, whereas the Andersen pvc jamb seems to be a permanent seal.

tex

The pricing you quote surprises me. The 400 Tilt Wash seems right but the Woodwright seems way overpriced and the Ultimate DH way underpriced. Perhaps Home Depot priced the Woodwright incorrectly; it should be closer to $500, not $600.

The Marvin Ultimate DH is certainly worth $30 per window more than the Andersen 400 tilt-Wash; I would say it is worth about $200 more; it's in an entirely different league. How can you compare a Flexicron painted wood sash to a Kynar painted extruded aluminum clad one?

The Marvin Integrity fiberglass window only offers permanent Simulated Divided Lights without integral spacers and the patterns are limited to the same as the standard snap-in grilles.

We paid $497 for our ultimate dbl-hung three years ago. It's CN3020 for R.O. 36+ w and 48+ h. Low E II, Argon, bare wood interior, no grille, simple antique hardware and a screen. If you are paying only $440 for same, that is a real good price.

Calbay: Marvin Ultimate Double-hungs are specified as "WUDH" for wood and "CUDH" for clad so I don't know what "CN" means but I agree that $440 is a very low price for an Ultimate DH window but then I don't really know how big it is.

Texas: You mention that most of the double-hung sizes are 3050 and that is not an Andersen double-hung size nor is it a Marvin size. What is a 3050, some size code you made up?

I don't know what anyone is talking about.

Hi Mighty,

CN stands for Call Number. It came from the Marvin catalog and showed up on our purchase order. I assume it is some sort of procut code? The shop likes to use the call number so we got used to using it with them. I just assume all you pro's use it too :-). Our window is CUDH (Aluminum clad). No brick moulding, nothing fancy, all basic.

3050 means 3' wide by 5' tall. The Andersen and Marvin windows aren't exactly this size but close. I'm building around these windows, so we just have to decide which windows it is and have them do the rough openings to fit.

I priced the Woodwrights at 2 different Home Depots and they were close to $600.

I have the printed quotes on the Marvins and this is pretty close I know, but now I wonder if something is missing in my price if it seems too low. I know they have the SDL on top sash only, and Low E with Argon. The dealer says they always price with dual pane Low E / Argon, but then he gave me a quote with clear glass and I had to call him on it. Surprisingly the glass upgrade was only about $35. His price also includes delivery about 50 miles from the store.

"3050" is the a standard nomenclature used for door sizes (3070, 2668, etc.) but it only causes confusion when it is used for windows.

A window R.O. or frame/unit size should always be called out in full, never abbreviated.

The following windows all have about a 3-0 x 5-1 rough opening but they use different conventions for their size nomenclature:

Pella Arch., Designer & Pro = "3759" (modern convention - based on actual overall frame dim. in inches)

Marvin Integrity = "3660" (modern convention - based on nominal overall frame dim. in inches)

Marvin Ultimate D-H = "3026" (traditonal convention - based on dim. of glass in each sash in inches regardless of any divided lights)

Andersen 400 WW & TW = "210410" (traditional convention - based on overall assembled sash size, i.e. inside of frame, in feet-inches ... add 2 7/8" to get R.O ht., add 1 5/8" to get R.O. width)

To hedge your bets use the Marvin Ult. D-H rough openings; they are the largest.

Interestingly enough, the Andersen Tilt Wash and Woodwright use the exact same frame, so the sill detail is identical on both. Only the sash & tilt hardware are different. I'm curious who knows how long kynar has been used on aluminum clad windows in the field? Andersen's permashield system has been in the field for 60 years, and kynar is a relatively new technology for windows. So to state that kynar has a better track record is amazingly inaccurate.
At any rate, the Tilt Wash will be the cheapest selection of the choices listed, easily. The Woodwright typically comes in about 5% to 10% less than the Ultimate, at least it does around here.
All 3 are great products, that will serve you well for a very long time, with proper installation. That is the key.
So when you know exactly what options you want, I'd shop your list to multiple sources for both brands. Then get the deal that best fits your plans and budget.
Good luck.

Actually calbay, wood does beat steel, aluminum, and fiberglass when it comes to windows. It's readily available, easy to work with, all natural, insulates better, and has tremendous durability when cared for properly. Cladding is merely added to reduce maintenance.
As for the 60 year comment, would you feel better buying a product that was untested, or one that has proven to be successful over a long period of time? I do find that kind of information helpful to home owners. I've seen these technical sheets you refer to, and not to insult anyone, but most folks can't make sense of it. You'd need a technical background to understand it.
And I disagree about the educated customer. The more homework a client has done, the easier it is to discuss the true performance of a product. I love knowledgable clients. Business lost? no way. A knowledgable buyer, who becomes a happy customer, is your best advertising.
I always try to post impartial information, but when bad information is pushed on someone, I have to speak up. And it doesn't matter what manufacturer it is, as I've defended them all at some point.

PPG Kynar 500 paint on aluminum windows is 41 years old
Andersen Perma-Shield PVC window cladding is 40 years old
PPG Flexacron elastomeric polyurethane paint is 39 years old

Thanks Mike, Mightyanvil for the informative Andersen and Marvin info. Want to be clear my comments were not directed at you. I was expressing general frustration at the shops we encountered in our area except for the very last one (we bought from them). If every Windows shop in our area was as forthcoming with information as you are, it would have made our work a lot easier. It took us 6 months to educate ourselves enough to make an informed decsision, many homeowners have neither the time nor the desire to do that.

Sorry to have misdirected the flow a bit, NOW back to Andersen 400 vs Marvin Clad!!!

AndersenÂs PVC-clad wood double-hung w/"Flexicron" painted sash is 38 years old

MarvinÂs Kynar-painted rollform-aluminum-clad wood double-hung w/"Polycron" (Flexicron) painted sash is 27 years old

MarvinÂs Kynar-painted all-extruded-aluminum-clad wood double-hung is 21 years old

AndersenÂs "Fibrex" composite is 11 years old

AndersenÂs Woodwright PVC-clad wood double-hung w/ "fibrex"-clad sash is 4 years old.

IMHO it is pure specious sales hype to claim that Flexacron paint is some kind of "liquid vinyl" cladding, making the Perma Shield Tilt-Wash a "fully clad" window. It is difficult to understand why Andersen did not add a true sash cladding 21 years ago when Marvin did.

I like the new fully-clad Andersen Woodwright introduced in 2004 but in terms of "track record" for fully-clad wood double-hung windows no one can dispute that Marvin's is better.

No matter how you add it up, claims that Andersen has a 60 year track record for fully-clad double-hung windows and that Kynar is a relatively new technology for windows are neither true nor impartial.

Marvin's own press release dated 03/06/2002, announces their move to a Kynar 500 product coating.
And if you remember, Marvin tried to replicate the Andersen flexicron coating on sash, but due to a very toxic reaction to their wood preservative, Marvin was subject to, and lost, a class action lawsuit that nearly buried the company.
No company will simply follow the lead of a competitor. They will strive for something different, to be better, to be unique. That's what gives us all this fun stuff to talk/argue about.
I do have a hard time with anyone saying that any one way is better than another. If that was the case, why would we have so many options? Too many humble opinions, aren't so humble.

I grew up in the construction business. Windows were always referred to using the same nomenclature as doors. Currently in this area builders refer to the windows in this fashion, and the plans that I have call out the window sizes in this fashion.

Of course no wood windows exactly fit these dimensions, but the exact window sizes aren't necessarily known when the plans are done, but refer to an approximate size.

Home Depot called today and said they have a sale on Woodwrights at 20% off this week. This brings the Woodwrights down to about the same price as the Marvins. I still haven't seen a Woodwright.

My biggest fear is doing business with Home Depot and having them screw up the order.

Marvin has used a fluoropolymer coating made with PVDF (polyvinylidene) resin on its aluminum cladding for 27 years. Originally the coating passed the AAMA 5 year exposure in the south Florida sun

Kynar 500 is a 41 year old fluoropolymer PVDF coating trade name that is owned by Atochem North America and manufactured under license by a half dozen paint companies. It meets the AAMA 10 year exposure test for durability and color retenion, the best in the window business. Marvin was the first wood clad window manufacturer to upgrade its entire product line to a Kynar 500 coating.

The Marvin Ultimate double-hung widnow has a track record of 21 years for the extruded aluminum cladding and 41 years for the paint finish.

Running Marvin down with information irrelevant to its current products doesn't make biased arrogant claims about a 60 year Andersen track record and Kynar being a new technology any more true.

I started this mess, and I still need a nudge. I went to a "real" Andersen dealer today to look at the Woodwright double hung, so that I could rule it out and order the Marvin Ultimates.

Uh oh. The Woodwrights are beautiful windows. I took my digital and took pictures. Then drove 30 miles across the DFW metroplex to look at the Marvin's for the 3rd time, and took pictures of those again too.

These windows are almost identical in appearance. The routing of of the sash is slightly different, the Marvin has a rounded edge next to the glass, the WW has a more angular slope to the glass. The weatherstripping is visable on the sides of the upper sashes on the Marvin. On the WW it is hidden and thus looks somewhat better, although this is not a real big deal.

Amount of wood showing, and the appearance of the jamb tracks are almost identical.

The WW sash release is the same as the Tilt Wash, although much easier since the PVC jamb does not have to be compressed.

The outside of the windows look pretty much the same, although the WW has a smoother frame appearance due to to the "permashield" cladding. The sash on the WW is the fibrex material, it just looks painted frankly, but very attractive.

I don't know which one I would choose with no input from this board. Because of the glowing recommendations for the Marvin ultimate, I would probably lean to it, but its hard to make the decision.

One option is to go with Marvin double hungs and Andersen 400 casements. I like the clad sashes on the Anderson, and really they appear more heavy duty than the Marvin casements, and cost less. This might not be an option if we can't match the exterior color of pebblestone between the two brands.

Its getting to the point where we are going to have to order pretty soon. I have a feeling by the time I get my pricing from this "real" dealer, the WW and the Marvins will be the same price overall. The Marvin double hungs are less, the casements are more.

I also looked at the Jeldwen Pozzi windows today. A very nice looking quality window, but I didn't care for the appearance of the sash next to the glass. There is a piece of trim inside the perimeter of the sash that I think takes away from the appearance. So we have ruled it out.

What to do. What to do!

Good luck with your decision texas. You can't go wrong either way. Both are a very good products.
You'll have to forgive the folks in here. Most of them are supposedly industry professionals, and they believe they know more about windows than billion dollar window companies. Give someone access to Google, and they think own the world.
The only thing in this string that matters is your project. I commend you on selecting higher grade windows than the cheap stuff that "meets code". The envelope of the building is the most critical part of the building. By spending a little more now, you'll save a lot in the long run.

Just to update this thread, the "real" Andersen dealer came in about 10% higher than Home Depot on the Woodwright windows, which was higher than the Marvins already.

I took lots of pictures of both, and have been going back and forth looking at the pictures.

We have about 75% decided on the Marvins, for these reasons:

1. Aluminum clad exterior.
2. Easy tilt wash feature.
3. Exterior clad color pebblestone gray.
4. Lower price.

Looking back and forth at the pictures, I actually think the Woodwright is a prettier window, the fit and finish and millwork is better in my opinion. Assuming it is of equal quality otherwise, I can see where many would choose it over the Marvin, and there is about a 25% chance we will too.

We closed on our interim loan today, so we are close to ordering them.

I bought the Andersen 400 series thru HD about 3 months ago.
I am dissapointed that I can't have an inside mount for my cellular shades. Another complaint I have about Andersen is that the window sizes come in 4 inch increments and you always have to go smaller rather than larger when replacing windows. I let my GC do the measure but was really disappointed when I saw that he had to build in 3 inches for the width and 3 inches for the height. I obviously hadn't thought this through - I was not prepared for smaller windows.

Outisde of that, the windows are good quality. I love their invisibile insect screen.

Patrice, you should have your contractor research the Woodwright double hung from Andersen. It comes in the same sizes as the 400 Series TW, but can also be custom sized by 1/8" increments for width and height, so you wouldn't have had to "build in" for them.
They would have cost a little more, but the time and labor saved on install would have equalled things out.
That new screen is a nice option.
Because the Woodwright has an all wood interior, the blinds can be mounted inside the jamb, especially if you have extension jambs.

Texas - good luck. Sounds like you're just about there. Tell the companies you have priced their competition, and see if they'll do a little better for you.

Update - I finally ordered the Marvin windows a few days ago. About $9000 for 17 windows, including 1 awning, 2 casement, 1 picture, and the rest double hung. They are wood/clad, and have SDL on upper sashes, low E w/Argon, etc. All standard sizes, no roundtops.

The problem we have now is that there are 2 garage windows that we wanted to use cheaper vinyl units, but we can't find a match to the Marvin pebblestone gray color for the exterior.

Today, we ordered an Andersen frenchwood inswing patio door (6') for about $2000 from Home Depot. My impression was that it was a nicer door than the Marvin, and the Marvin was more expensive.

But doesn't the Andersen Frenchwood door also have a different color than Marvin's Pebble Gray?

Marvin comes with a 10 year warranty on the hardware and a 20 year on the glass (against seal failures and stress cracks) good luck with Andersen. The paint chalks, and the vynil, which conducts heat, cold and moisture, is in direct contact with the frame (rot)

Texas_al,

The prices you'e been mentioning, are those installed prices?
I just got a quote from Renewal by Anderson that was $11,500 for only 10 windows (mostly gliders, 2 casements, and one picture) I'm still reeling from sticker shock.

Dan

No, those are not installed prices. Just delivered to new construction site. The framers are installing them, under my supervision.

Yes, the Andersen door we selected is terratone, a darker color than the Marvin color, but it is a door, not a window and the colors actually contrast pleasantly. Others might have a different opinion, but we liked the combination. I'm pretty sure the Andersen warranty is the same as the Marvin, and this door is under a porch that extends out up to 16 feet. It will seldom see any blowing rain or any direct sunlight.

As for the showroom doors we looked at, the Andersen to us was just a better looking door. But the fit and finish looked much better to us. The Marvin's weatherstipping while probably effective looked sloppy to me, uneven, sticking out here and there. The door operation was not as smooth as the Andersen. And about $250 more in cost. So we went with the Andersen, even though I REALLY wanted to like the Marvin as it would have been easier to get it from the same dealer as my windows.

Hi Texas_Al,
It must feel good to be done with all the research and analysis. Your choices sound swell. You will enjoy them.
Cal

Good job Texas.
The Andersen and Marvin Warranties are very similar, with the Andersen warranty a little stronger in a few minor areas. You'll have nothing to worry about from a warranty standpoint.
Enjoy your completed project!!

We bought a house with many windows - all Anderson. We had a minor problem with the crank handle on one of them, and a district man came by when he was in town. He noticed something odd (still not sure what he saw) with one of the windows when he was leaving, and had two men come out go over every window, which took a couple days. When they were done, they said that we needed 14 new windows - what kind did we want? We got the low-e windows - 14 new windows free, we just had to install them ourselves, which was easy - and we are not particularly handy. We have some east windows that would really turn our family room into an oven in the summer and the low-e dramatically cut down on the heat coming in. We have since bought some more of the low-e windows. After our experience with Anderson, we would definitely buy their windows again!

Hello All,

does anyone have any recommendations for an installer in NYC. Would you let Home Depot recommend one of their contractor?

What brand and type of windows? New construction or replacement?