If the existing framework is in good shape, the only real drawback to an insert window is the loss of glass area.

Are the windows that are $200-300 apart comparing apples to apples?

I was told by one vendor that if I wanted to do full frame instead of inserts it would probably be 200-300 more per window. I didnÂt get an official quote beyond that because that was more than IÂd be willing to pay. Does that sound accurate to you or does that sound like too much of a difference?

The other vendor gave me an actual quote based on both full frame and inserts (apples to apples). He said it isnÂt that big of a difference ($110) because, the costs somewhat offset based on window costs vs. labor. The insert windows cost more per window but it requires less labor to install.

Does one of those scenarios sound more accurate than the other?

firt and foremost of course is that the guy you're hiring is good at and cares about what he's doing, there are alot of 'smash em in and get paid' guys out there

replacments should be pretty much apples to apples, variables being quality of window and weather or not the exterior trim will be capped with aluminum to be maintenance free

a couple things that might effect price difference with new construction might be,

interior trim- will the new mouldings match the rest of the house?

exterior trim- product, wood? aluminum capped? composite?
will they do what's necessary to keep the same look outside (ei. cut the siding back to accomodate wider trim, build a sill if thats what you have) or just trim within whatever space happens to be there

We live in a home built in 1954, and looking to replace the single pane DH windows. We have decided to go back with a wood window and we are also wrestling with either doing an insert or a full rip out. So far we have a quote from Andersen and Pella and looking to get a quote from Marvin. The quote on insert vs. full frame was 6% higher from Andersen and 11% from Pella.

Right now I am leaning toward the full frame replacement; it will mean some work on my part to stain all of the new trim but based on what the two companies told me about their install process we will end up with a much tighter window area with the full frame install.

Marvin double hung wood here are all about the same price for full-frame, insert, or even tilt-pack (maybe $100 less on a $700 window) for materials.

Personally, I can't stand the look of the "extra" frame-in-a-frame.

I have been evaluating this for some time for my own needs and are here are my thoughts:
first, the amount of glass loss can be significant with inserts; the best thing to do is get the drawings or dimensions for your options and mask off the area with some tape on an existing window or two. Stand back and evaluate your happiness with the "new" daylight opening. If you are ok with it and you are happy with the price / performance of the inserts go for it.
Second, depending on what price range you are already in, full replacements might not be that much more and to me will yield a better looking job. For me, in the mid range most of the insert companies wanted $450 - $650 per window installed (24x60 double hung windows...small ones). By shopping around and talking to various sub contractors, lumber yards, general contractors I was able to find people who would install anything I bought for $200 - $300 depending on who I had quote the work. I can buy a Marvin Integrity wood Ultrex double hung window that will get the tax credit for $325, or a Lincoln double hung wood interior, vinyl clad exterior tax credit window for $285 add $250 for an install and I am in the same range as the inserts but will actually pick up viewable glass area!
Bottom line: my windows are not big enough to suffer any glass loss so I will go for full replacements and not have to pay a premium for it.

Hello_

We have gotten a couple of quotes for replacement windows. Both companies STRONGLY steered us towards the retrofit style. We have a lot of windows, so I don't think we'd notice the reduced glass as much as we'd notice, from the inside, the massive amount of vinyl window frame and trimming. Me for sure, my wife, maybe not so much.

What techniques are there for fixing that issue? Do most folks just case the windows out to get around the all vinyl look?

Does anyone have close up pictures they could post of what a retrofit window looks like from the inside without any kind of special work done to hide all the vinyl?

thanks!

dryslick, I've been wrestling with this same issue. Got quotes from local guy (trimline window, much cheaper but still a decent window), Marvin Infinity, and Pella. I'm about to check out anderson too.

I was asking initially for just insert replacements, but when the Pella guy was here and I asked about glass loss, he was able to punch stuff into his laptop and give me an exact measurement of how much glass would be lost with the insert as opposed to full replacement. This is info we need! I don't know if Marvin or the local guy could tell me the same thing...they were kind of iffy about that issue, but I wasn't pressing for exact numbers.

The difference in cost for pella to do 7 windows was this:
insert replacement 7162. and for full replacement it was 7616. Not enough difference to give up the extra glass. This was for architect double hung. I would lose 1/2 inch in width total per window with full replacement. And one and a half inch with inserts.

Something else to consider. If you have any side by side windows, I would strongly consider full frame replacement. That middle wood between the 2 windows? It will be noticeably bigger with inserts.

The pella quote was given by the official pella people which should help with warranty issues down the road too. But the wood trim they use for full replacements here (pittsburgh area) is way thicker and bigger than what I currently have....it's nice and solid but it's a bit of a problem for me. My house is small and I like a bit of woodwork, but don't want big stuff.

We still haven't decided.

The thing I have not seen anyone on here mention or even give any thought to is replacement windows in a bedroom and the effect it will have on the egress requirements. Please people make sure that if you do use these especially on a second floor that god forbid you have a fire that the windows are still large enough for people to get out of. Remember the reason you lose glass opening is that the unit becomes SMALLER and the older house the bedroom windows most for the time barely met the egress code at the time and now the code is for an even larger clear opening.

DONT GO WITH RETROFIT WINDOWS - they suck. Firstly and most importantly you LOOSE A LOT OF GLASS AREA in exchange for a huge ugly frame. My beautiful picture windows are now a sliver of what they were before. They look look like submarine portals now. ALSO the installation is full of ungapotch shody work. They use vinyl strips to cover the opening between the old frame and new one. The spece inside is hollow and the finish on that and ALL THE SEAMS is freaking cauls. That is on the outside and the inside and all over the construction of the frame. CAULK!!!! This is CRAP. Dont do it. Do it right and replace your windows with real replacement windows and spend the extra money to repair the exterior damage after it is done. Look at all these photos showing the glass size reduction in these crappy replacement retrofits by Milgard. Then look at the before and after of the interior and exterior views. These retrofit windows suck.

"DONT GO WITH RETROFIT WINDOWS - they suck."

Nice generalization for someone who did not do there homework on the product or the installer. There are millions of replacement windiws installed and plenty of people perfectly happy with the result.

Sounds like Jeff took the cheaper install option and had buyers remorse. Hard to see the finish detail from the pics. I would say you picked the wrong window as well, there are other options and brands that would have worked better. Maybe You should of stopped the project when you took pictures of glass difference between the new and existing?

The window company i chose does not charge a different amount to install new construction windows. I asked them about TEN times to explain to me the difference between retrofit and new construction windows because I was removing the old siding from the house and replacing with new stucco which would have made the repairs after new construction windows no problem. They NEVER told me about the glass loss or the caulking or anything. They kept saying that the two looked exactly the same.

no matter your install method Jeff you were going to lose a lot of glass space with those windows. Your previous windows had @1" frame to glass to a much thicker 3-4" frame to glass.

are you saying that the NEW CONSTRUCTION WINDOWS have the SAME THICKNESS of framing and same glass loss as these retrofit windows?

not the same, but not what you had either. The frame thickness on your old windows are very thin. looks to be about an inch or so from the photos. Most any window these days is going to be much wider than that regardless of replacement or new construction. Most window manufacturers use the same window for new construction or retro fit applications. The only difference in the window itself would be a built on or snap on nailing flange or j-channel. So there isn't much difference if any in the products. The Installation would be different obviously. You probably would get another 1.5" or so in glass by going the other route, which still would be much less than what you had. I was going to add that it looks like they missed on the measurements by a bit which doesn't help but because of the style of house I suppose they jumped the old frame? That type of install method isn't typical in my neck of the woods.

So i guess what you are saying is that the thickness of the new vinyl frames will be GREATER than the old aluminum frames but - since the new construction windows go all the way to the edge, you do not lose the space now taken up by the aluminum frames - and that would be like one inch - yes?? What do you mean that the they missed on the measurements? I noticed that they used spacers between the old frame and the new ones. Is that the space you are referring to here?

im thinking that I should have them remove these new windows and then just get new glass for the old frames (i think they destroyed my old glass) and then have a custom glass guy put a 2nd pane into the opening so that I have 2 panes of glass. Would that work?

When I first saw your photos it looked like they made the windows to small but then realized they jumped the frame.

Maybe replace the 2 units above the door with 1 window and replace the lower window with a new door and side light.

I wouldn't do that. They will not be sealed correctly and you'll trap in moisture/dirt. They likely threw away whatever stops held in your original glass. Here are the options I see, there may be more.

1. Live with it. From here in Cincinnati the outside looks nice and you'll probably get used to the glass difference. (Can't see the workmanship from photos but looks nice from what I can see)

2.New windows with a smaller frame size- tear out old frame- Probably not going to gain as much as you think- if your on west coast or somewhere warm look at aluminum instead, you may find smaller frames.

3. A direct set window or IG unit.- This is going to get you the most glass space and be similar to what you have. Glass or glazing companies would be more likely to help you here instead of the traditional replacement contractors.

As noted above, you went from an extremely narrow frame (extruded aluminum and direct glazed) to a frame jumped vinyl retrofit.

You can't shrink the opening any more than that comparison. The only way to really have preserved the glass would have been either new IGUs set into the old frames or new construction aluminum with a stucco cut back.

Great. Thanks guys for all the info. What is IGU?

Insulated Glass Unit. You should consider going back to an aluminum frame window for such a thin profile.

Good discussion. We're coming up on a remodel with new windows and trying to get our heads around all the options. One question: What is jumping the frame? Thanks..

I have a 1950's home. Stone, stone window sills. Double hung. The frames were great, but the windows had to go. I used Marvin tilt packs and they work great here in Minnesota. A friend had Renewal by Anderson - that loses quite a bit of window area.

Re:dave_rosky

"Jumping the frame". Another name for a retrofit window. You leave the old frame but remove glass, vertical mullion etc. and the new frame sits in the old frame with a fin on the outside to cover the old frame and interior flat stops (color matching) to hide the old frame on the inside. Generally, the new frame is deeper than the old so insulation or foam is packed in to make up the difference. Hope this clears it up.

Thanks for the explanation. It sounded like frame jumping was only one method of retrofitting, but I think it's a finer distinction than that. After looking around more, I think I see why people make a distinction between frame-jumped and non-frame-jumped retrofits. With very old wood windows, once you remove the stops, you're basically down to the main opening of the window (the jambs, sill, etc.). An insert can then be fit in with no significant gap. However, with sliding aluminum windows popular in the '50s and '60s (which is what we have), apparently it can be difficult to remove enough of the original aluminum pieces (rails, etc.) to get down to the actual window opening, so most of the time it is left in place and "jumped" over, resulting in a larger loss of glass area, and a gap that must be covered with extra vinyl trim and extra large stops (as East Bay 10 mentioned). With this project coming up, as I look around, I've been wondering why so many '50s-'60s era houses with new windows have very thick looking window frames, and this explains it.

It kind of makes one want to go the full-frame route, especially if you want new interior trim anyway, as many '60's era houses have little or no trim to start with.

problem is that when you do the new replacement window route, there is damage to the surfaces around the window like drywall on the inside and siding or stucco on the outside. My issue was that the window company I used, advised me to put in retrofit after I specifically TOLD THEM that I was ripping off my old siding and installing brand new stucco.

I agree it sounds pretty bad they would have advised you that way. In our case, we want new interior trim but not necessarily new stucco, but it sounds like as long as you want at least one of those things, it's probably worth going the full-frame route to avoid the glass loss.