Return to the Windows Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

Posted by threeapples (My Page) on
Wed, Apr 4, 12 at 21:55

we have simulated divided lite with spacer bar windows from Marvin and this photo is just one example of how the mullions are far from the sash frame. We think it looks awful and cheap, what do you think?

Here is a link that might be useful: mullion


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

i screwed up the link last time, sorry.

Photobucket


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are talking about, so I'm no help. However, we're thinking Marvin windows with the wood pop-off grills. Is that what these are? Are you unhappy with them? I'm going to watch for responses from people who know more thanI do.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

the gap on the lower muntin looks okay the top however looks questionable .how much do you notice it from 7 ft away ?


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

Yeah, stand about 5 feet away without a zoom lens and see if you notice it. If it still bothers you, you could squirt something in there like liquid vinyl. If they say that meets specs then I'm sure it does.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

May meet Marvin standards, but does not look good to me. Especially on the interior side. All you can do in fill in with something, & that may look worse than what you have. Good Luck! To tabteacher: these are non removable grills on the interior & exterior with a spacer bar between the insulated glass. They look better than removable grills, but cost more & are not removable.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

So, after paying a premium price for a premium product, you should "squirt something in there" to make it look acceptable? As a woodworking novice, I dont think that would even meet my standards. A removable grill maybe.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

I would not accept that. Have you contacted Marvin?


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

That gap is a bit more than what I would consider normal and with all due respect to WindowDog, I would not squirt anything in there.

Ask them what their allowable tolerances are and put a feeler gauge in there.

If it is out of spec, get them to swap out that sash.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

"If it is out of spec ..."

The problem is Marvin writes the spec.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

Marvin has replaced these sashes twice now and says this is within their normal tolerance. Yes, you notice this several feet away. Our current home's low-grade Pella windows look better than this. I refuse to squirt something in there, but Marvin doesn't seem to see these details as a problem. We're highly disappointed. Not sure what to do, however.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

I would rather see the fitment on these be better, also. Was just suggesting a less frustrating quick fix. I'm not impressed with those "specs" if that's what they consider normal fitment.

In a day and age when these kinds of things are cut to fit by computers, it should fit better than that.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

Which line of Marvin windows are these? Are the lite dividers made of wood? What is the humidity level in you home now? What humidity level can be expected this summer?


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

brickeyee,

I agree with you, however, the expectation would be that a company of quality (I think most would agree that Marvin fits that bill...most of the time) would want to see a nice product turned out.

If they have replaced these twice and that is the best they can do, I suggest you ask for the next person up the chain.

I would not be happy with that finished product either.

How wide is that window?

I do not think that much slop would be required for any amount of expansion.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

yes, we are more than frustrated. what should we do? i don't want to "squeeze" something in there, but the company seems incapable of crafting something that looks better. there are several other problems as well, i'm just too tired to rehash them at the moment. as i might have stated earlier, these are the replaced sashes (first set were worse). thanks.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

Hi, threeapples. My name is John and I work at Marvin Windows and Doors. I might be able to help a bit here.

There are a variety of circumstances that could be causing what's shown in your photo. It looks like that gap is beyond our .020 tolerance, but it's hard to say for sure.

If you can send some contact information to johnkir@marvin.com, I'll put you in touch with customer service to work on sorting this out. Thanks.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

Thanks for jumping in here and helping this consumer out, John. All of us on here who support Marvin as a leader in the window industry know Marvin is second to none in customer service. Thanks for validating that once again.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

So glad to see John jump in here. Threeapples' experience has completely baffled me and I look forward to hearing what happens from here.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

"I do not think that much slop would be required for any amount of expansion. "

That is completely correct.

Wood has very little change in length with moisture, the USDA "Wood Handbook"

"Longitudinal shrinkage of wood (shrinkage parallel to the
grain) is generally quite small. Average values for shrinkage from green to ovendry are between 0.1% and 0.2% for most species of wood." (p. 3-8).

It is just poor workmanship.

Getting them to fix it is another matter.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

I believe the photo is an Infinity window. I looked at one yesterday with the SDL grids and the fitment to the sash was entirely NOT like the one posted here. The one I looked at was fine. I don't know what the glitch is on this, but I hope you are able to get it resolved. I would guess that the gap in this photo is over 1/16 of an inch, and that is unacceptable. I'm sure Marvin will address this with you, and we will be watching this thread to follow the progress. Please keep us up to date.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

Looks like an Infinity based on my sample as well and the sample I have certainly does not show like that.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

These are NOT infinity windows, but the ULTIMATE DOUBLE HUNG window by Marvin. The gentleman from Marvin who posted on here received my info. and has passed it along to customer service. Let's hope this customer service team is better than the one we've been dealing with. I'll keep you all posted.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

I'm sure they do everything they can to keep their wood from drying and shrinking too much but one can only go so far. Mother nature holds the last word. It's WOOD, not plastic or fiberglass.
If they made you another one and it was the same, then what?


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

"drying and shrinking too much "

The shrinkage of wood along the length is extremely small (0.1% to 02%).
It is just sloppy cutting to length.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

+1

Wood shrinkage is well overstated and certainly should not be an issue in the materials they are using vs other woods.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

While I'm sure, and I hope I'm right, that window companies use kiln dried wood, I don't know for a fact that sometimes they might compromise.

I put a couple "cross and bible" wood doors in my house once, and painted them. Several months later, we had a dry period of no rain for quit a while. The panels and the door frame all shrunk so much that there was literally a 1/8 inch space of unpainted wood between the frames and the panels.

That being said, I don't think that's the issue with these muntin bars/grids, but who knows. I'm confident that they are cut by a machine with computer programming, and that there is a defect in the programming which should be corrected.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

Marvin definitely uses all Kiln Dried Lumber and these are normally all cut with a C&C machine. So there really should be no reason for the tolerances to be that far off.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

Uggh, well Marvin customer service sent me a long letter which was prompted from my posts on here. They suggest these discrepancies are within their tolerance, which is judged 3-4 feet away. I'm very disappointed and considering having them all removed and going with Anderson or something. At least that way I wouldn't have paid so much for poor workmanship. Do any of you have suggestions? We really splurged for these windows (cut corners in other areas to get them) and they look awful.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

We bought the same kind of windows from Marvin and the mullions are so snug to the window I can barely get a fingernail in there. I'm so sorry you are not getting resolution on this. Have you measured the gap to see if it's just on the edge of their spec?

I don't have any advice for you on if you should switch to another window or not. For us, the Marvins were also a splurge that we afforded by cutting back in other areas. For instance, I would have preferred a more "craftsman" style trim around the window but decided to go with the cheaper 2.5" colonial casing to be able to afford the windows I wanted.

Is there any chance a custom woodworker could remake the mullions so you would have some that actually FIT the way they should? If I'd seen this before ordering our windows I probably would have gone with the cheaper Anderson's and figured I'd have them covered with sheers most of the time. As it is, we got lucky I guess that our windows were made well. But I don't normally "roll the dice" when I'm paying a premium price for what is supposed to be a premium product.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

Was the gap over .020? Maybe take a picture of the window with a feeler gauge in it. Have you talked to your supplier? I'd keep postin and complaining if these are out of spec.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

The image I included above is just at the limit of Marvin's tolerance. To me it looks terrible, especially considering the price of these windows. Not sure what to do. In thinking of taking them all out and going with another company. At least that way I'd save money and not feel irritated I paid a premium for a badly made product. We are so frustrated they look like this!


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

EngineerChic, do you happen to have a photo of your windows I can see?
Does anyone happen to know what Anderson and Pella's tolerance measurements are? I'm strongly considering just aborting all of this with Marvin and going with someone else. It's just too irritating. thanks.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

How many windows have you put in that have this problem? How many windows do you have left to replace?


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

Over half the windows have this problem. The majority of the windows have been replaced twice, several three times, and several are in need of a fourth replacement. The doors from Marvin have had the same problems. I'm so irritated because I've seen them make these windows beautifully and now it appears that the company is fine with our being how they are.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

I am terribly sorry you are having these problems and especially so given that the pros (me included) regularly recommend Marvin as one of the top two picks in the wood options.

Marvin is still a family run company.

Call them back and ask for somebody with the Marvin last name and see what you get in terms of a response.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

1/2 of how many? So at this point all are 0.02 or less? The gap of the top grid does appear to be over.020, more like .030. It looks like you could almost get a dime in there which is .050.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

I believe we have about 37 windows, though I may be under by a few as I don't have the plans in front of me right now.

Yes, the gaps do look large, don't they? The calibrator suggests they are at the edge of Marvin's tolerance. I'm going back tomorrow and will take a photo with the instrument in these spaces to post.

Perhaps I should see who else from Marvin will speak to me about this.

At this point I'll not be recommending the company unless they ship us windows that look better than my builder's grade Pella.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

threeapples, please email me at my email address I may have a contact for you!


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

Ok, emailed you yesterday. Looking forward to hearing from you. Have yet to hear back from Marvin again.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

Looking for the contact info of the person you need to contact, will be in touch tomorrow.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

If those gaps are considered acceptable, I will definitely be looking at other brands now. I hope you get this resolved,but it is still a huge and stressful headache. It would be one thing if you had knowingly settled for a cheap product, but that is obviously not the case. I hope they make it right.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

Our vendor was out today and agreed to replace a few sashes for the 4tg time now! I'm hoping to talk to Marvin if I can find a contact for someone who can make some changes. Yes, if this is not resolved I will be going with another company. What a pain!


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

Post back with the updates when you have them.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

Just wanted to update on our situation.

Today we had a regional Marvin rep, the manager of the vendor for their windows in our area, and a sales rep, out at our house and we inspected every single window that caused me concern. I will say that they were all fantastic, offering to replace many sashes for a 5th time now and they'll continue to do so until we are satisfied. The explanation I received for inaccuracies were that the grids are made by machine, but assembled onto the window by a person (actually he explained mostly women do this because they are more meticulous). That said, they all recognized that some of the sashes look bad and need replacing. We'll see what happens, but I wanted to post my update and say that I'm satisfied with their commitment to customer service and am so glad we had our meeting today.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

That is good to hear and very much like the company that I know Marvin to be.

Keep us updated.


 o
RE: Marvin says this is within their industry standard. Thoughts?

Interested to hear again from OP how this worked out. Anything to report??


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Windows Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here