I ask because all whites are not the same. An option if you were going to repaint the moldings would be to use the same paint formula as the window so that everything was an exact match. Not a huge deal and not necessary but it does look great when done that way.

mmarse1: Thanks...that helps for when I need to choose a paint for the trim. I'll make sure it's semigloss finish, especially if we choose vinyl. If only I had some extra trim that I could take with me to the showrooms :)

Thanks!

I ask because all whites are not the same. An option if you were going to repaint the moldings would be to use the same paint formula as the window so that everything was an exact match. Not a huge deal and not necessary but it does look great when done that way.

I've yet to see a vinyl window I've liked the look of from the inside, and would love be educated on what a 'good' vinyl window looks like. Every one I've seen seems very utilitarian in appearance, with little effort made to look good.

The exteriors are fine for the most part, especially if they do a decent job with the welded corners. But I haven't seen one that does anything to try and look like anything special from the inside. Not saying they don't exist, but every time I go to a recommended vinyl window website, I don't see any pics detailing the interior or much discussion on them.

These are my Andersen pics that I've snapped. Will post my Marvin in a minute.

Andersen A Series in the factory applied primer.

This is the 400 Woodwright in a stained wood finish

This is I believe the base 400 Series although I could be mistaken and this might be an Eagle - once I saw the jamb liner I stopped taking pics

This is a Dashwood (Andersen) vinyl interior

These are the Marvin Integrity - I quite liked these, and like the fiberglass exterior construction, but when the quote came in as high as the Andersen A Series, and the Ultimate quote added another 30%, I decided on the Andersen A Series.

Honestly I believe Andersen and Marvin manufacture windows high quality, and I'm sure I'd be happy either way. One of the major factors in my decision is also the company I'm working with who happens to be an Andersen dealer. They're great people and I trust their work. If they sold Marvin I'd be buying it. The people installing your windows are in my opinion more important than the choice between competing brands of windows at similar quality/price points. The best window in the world is going to be horrible if it's installed poorly, and a good installation can make a run-of-the-mill window a joy to have.

Integrity:

TorontoTim

I have a question regarding A series. Did it bother you when you tilted the sash and saw that there is only a razor thin veneer on the interior? I think its a nice window but my concern would be how the interior is going to hold up. I have seen the window a hundred times but had never bothered to tilt a sash in. I was shocked at what i saw.

Window_mike: thanks for tip on painting the same color...not sure how I would do that with vinyl? Since its open to the kitchen, we will likely have to pick something to match the crown on the kitchen cabs as well. We will also be painting the vaulted ceiling bead board. I am NOT looking forward to choosing from the hundreds of whites out there. Lol.

TorontoTim: thanks for taking time to post the pics. to be honest I didn't pay that much attention to the looks of the window as I had never given our current windows a second glance. We never open them and only open the patio door when we need ventilation. We've never painted the wood interiors of the windows in the 9yrs we've lived in the home. Did you look at the Softlites when you were researching vinyl windows? They look nice but then again I didn't look at too many other vinyls to say they are better looking than other vinyls out there :)

Wood vs vinyl battle in my mind continues. Lol.

I think bc we have white interiors, it makes a little less difference but I will pay closer attention when I go to the showrooms this week.

Towards the front of our home, we have a wood paneled study...in there I may think twice about vinyl and spring for wood to keep in style of the look of the room.

Thanks again!

Take a piece of the trim or a sash (in good weather) to the paint store to be computer matched or most companies have a formula available for the more popular paint lines.

Is that only if we get wood windows? Can they paint match vinyl interior windows? Would I want to paint match to the vinyl?

Sorry if these are silly questions, I am clueless when it comes to this stuff :)

Well you cant paint the vinyl but i guess you could bring a sash to the paint store and have them color match it. I finally was able to find a good photo of the Okna window. It looks good for a vinyl window, much better than the average vinyl. It still is not even close to the look of the Marvin. Theres no contest at all really IMO. The picture that i saw was the 5500 which i think is the top model. It had 2 sash locks which would be a deal breaker for me. Vinyl companies do this to prevent the check rail from sagging due to the lack of strength, although they will probably say its to create a better seal.

Mike - now you've got me wondering :) I'm going to have to go have another look to see what you mean.

This is the cross section of the base 400 Tilt Wash series - note the solid wood with cladding.

This is the cross section of the 400 Woodwright. The darker edged material is the Fibrex wood/vinyl composite.

And the A Series - the white edged material is fiberglass.

The fancier it gets, the less wood there is ;) The wood is more or less entirely cosmetic and for good reason. Fiberglass is stronger, expands/contracts less, etc. And it's likely cheaper and easier to produce with fewer natural resources.

Thanks for the extra info.

Window_mike: I thought the elements dh only had one lock. I can't remember on the LS.

Toronto_tim: thanks for the cross sections. I should really pay more attention to them next time.

I have a feeling I'll be dreaming about windows tonight. Lol!

A series is only fiberglass on the sash. The frame, sill and trim are Fibrex. I would be concerned with how the 2 materials age over time next to eachother.

I am not sold on Fibrex as a material at all. As I've said before: it is the answer to a question that nobody asked. It essentially adds wood flour (sawdust) to vinyl, which does nothing other than add an organic component to the vinyl that can degrade. Cellular PVC and Fiberglass are much better "composite" alternatives IMO. I'll never recommend anything with fibrex after seeing some 9 yr old Renewals that were TRASHED from condensation.

Double locks are going to be standard on most vinyl and composite windows over a certain size (typically around 25" wide), and many wood windows as well. They add additional strength and security. I can't say that I've ever run into a client that rejected double locks based on appearance. The comment about the double locks being necessary to prevent the check rail from sagging is pure bunk.
@rbk: On the wood vs vinyl, forgive me if this point was already made (didn't feel like re-reading the entire thread, lol), but resale is definitely a consideration as well, and on that, there is really no clear winner. One group of potential buyers will be swayed by an Ultra High performance product with triple pane glass, super low air infiltration, lifetime warranty, no painting, etc, while the other group will be more impressed by the beauty of real wood. I will say though that as I mentioned earlier, painting the window really detracts from the latter IMHO.
@ Mike: I've attached a link to the HiMark/Okna 800. That is their flagship vinyl offering. The 5500 is a new construction version of the 500/Insultec. Mid-level in the line. The pics actually don't do it justice in terms of looks. That said, I don't think anyone here would argue that ANY vinyl window can match the looks of a high end wood window like the Marvin. That is precisely the area where the wood products hold the advantage.

Here is a link that might be useful: HiMark 800

I agree with the above two posters. Not crazy about fibrex. Sometimes I think that the Andersen engineers get bored and challenge each other to see how many different materials that they can possibly use in one window.

rkb,

My comment about the air tightness (lack there of) on the 400 was from personal observation.

I am not an Andersen opponent by any means. I think several of the models that they make are quite nice and very well built.

There have been some comments about the 400s lately and that was my point. My customer is the one that actually pointed out the issues and threads on the matter.

The RBA is not in the same category as the upper end Andersen wood.

"The comment about the double locks being necessary to prevent the check rail from sagging is pure bunk. "

I was told by the owner of a fairly large vinyl window manufacturer that thats exactly why the 2 sash locks are needed. Otherwise why would you need 2 locks only when you get to a certain size. There are wood windows that are 5ft wide that dont need 2 locks. The longer a piece of vinyl gets the more it is likely to have sagging or bowing. The idea that its for security is "bunk"

homesealed: we hope to remain in the home for many years to come so re-sale isn't a huge issue, but again, I wouldn't want it to effect it in the future. Honestly, I could care less of the material and all these years we've owned the home I had no idea that they were wood or cared what they were...just that they were drafty. Lol. I'm definitely not a vinyl 'snob' but want to make sure that I don't make a mistake that is completely out of line with the home that we live in. Also, I want to make sure what we get will last.

The Kolbe guy said, 'the only people that get vinyl are the people that can't afford wood." I was turned off by that comment [as I was by his bid of $32k for the windows].

WoW: is the RBA the same as getting the insert double hungs 400series?

Does anyone know if the Softlite Kingsroyal is a welded unit or a 'knock down' unit that is put together in the opening?

Rbk:
-The kingsroyal is welded, which is preferred.
-RBA/Renewal is a completely different product. It is a full fibrex window, sold and installed only by RBA dealers.
-That really is a ridiculous comment by the Kolbe guy. People that can't afford wood, or perhaps people that are looking for higher performance and less maintenance, and are okay with a slight sacrifice in appearance.

@ Mike, I'm not going to question the truthfulness of your comment that "the owner of a large vinyl manufacturer" told you about double locks, however it is bad info whether anyone actually told you that or not. Double locks improve performance (higher resistance to deflection, ergo higher design pressure ratings) as well as the other things that I mentioned. I have seen lower end vinyl windows WITH double locks with warped sashes. Ultimately, the thickness of the vinyl, type of glazing, extrusion design, reinforcement, etc are all going to dictate whether or not it will warp or sag. I can't say that an extra lock can't possibly help, but it is far from the reason for it, and should not be looked upon as a negative feature. If in fact the locks were so crucial in keeping the upper rail of the lower sash from warping/sagging, what exactly is keeping the upper rail of the upper sash from doing so? No locks there.

This post was edited by HomeSealed on Mon, Mar 4, 13 at 16:07

, what exactly is keeping the upper rail of the upper sash from doing so? No locks there?

Nothing, they sag as well Lol!!! Also you admitted that it makes the check rail less likely to deflect which is basicallu what i meant. It may not be the only reason its there but it absolutely plays into the inherent weakness of vinyl ( i am sure i will get blasted for that). I dont question that there is high quality vinyl. I just feel that once you get in to the price category of the upper vinyl manufacturers the better value is the wood/clad window, especially if that window is a Marvin product.

Your point is invalid as it pertains to vinyl, because double locks are going to improve the same areas in any window regardless of material.
Three final points:
1)There will still be a substantial price difference between high end vinyl and high end wood
2)If a vinyl sash warps after 10 yrs, it is replaced under warranty. If a wood windows is rotted out after 10 years (and yes, the "big" brands do as well), it is in need of replacement. In fact, a fair portion of my vinyl sales are this very situation.
3) I sell vinyl, wood, and composite because each has distinct pros and cons, and can be the right choice in different situations. That is inarguable.

Ok, so what would you reccomend to the owner of this thread that the two of is have completely hijacked?

I have already made my recommendation: that it depends on the OP's priorities and goals for the project. My own personal opinion is that it is hard to justify the extra cost for wood when it is getting painted white anyway, but if the look and feel of the new units are at the top of the list, wood is the winner there. I believe that I stated the pros and cons pretty thoroughly throughout the two threads on the subject. Personally, I don't believe that the OP can go wrong either way, but again, it depends on whether looks or performance are the top priority.

Hehehe! I don't mind the friendly banter [or hijacking]. It's always informative to hear the experts debate points for or against a product.

All of you have been a great source of info on ALL of my threads, which somehow end up very long. Lol.

I asked my DH his opinion and he just said 'whatever is fine' but he didn't really care wood or vinyl b/c in his mind that decision won't change our 'quality of life' and therefore, would make spending extra money on wood not worth it. This from the man who in a heartbeat would spend 'extra' money on his cars :) I guess it's just personal preference, priorities, etc.

I digress...Anyway, my priority is to replace the windows with a very energy efficient window given that our space has so many windows/patio doors. I do care somewhat about looks, but in one year, I don't think I'll even give the windows a second thought [unless there is something wrong with them]. Mostly, I don't want to choose vinyl and then find out that in our neighborhood/ cost bracket of home that vinyl is taboo. That being said, I'm leaning towards one of the softlite products.

Anyway, once I visit the Marvin showroom, I'll have more of an idea on that window. I will go back to see the LS and the Elements. The elements dealer is having a promo to upgrade to the UltraS for no extra cost, which sounds interesting.

My job is getting in the way of my progress in deciding on windows. Lol. Hope to make some decision by the end of the week :)

Anything I should specifically ask about each companies installation process to ensure they are going to do a good job?

Thanks again!

I don't see any hijacking here, nor do I see an argument among experts. I don't post here often, but it looks to me as though the honest professionals are in agreement. Only one self proclaimed "window guy" disagrees, and typically that is indicative of someone that is either uninformed, or has questionable motives. Just my 2 cents

Oh god help me!!! Karateman has spoken. I shall leave this forum never to return. My motive is to help someone make a decision. This web site for whatever reason has a very heavy pro Vinyl following. lets say i am here for balance. Living a couple of thousand miles away from rkb21 what alterior motive could i have. i will certainly not benefit from the sale in any way regardless of which way they go. Your comment is Kind of stupid. I have been in homes that have had some of the vinyl windows that have been talked about on these forums and have seen some very terrible results. 3 or 4 year old high end Vinyl windows failing miserabley, including Soft-lite, Simonton, and Tri -State. Oh and Gorrell. I have not run into Okna or Sunrise. My opinion based on what i have seen is that these products do not perform over time. No doubt they will perform when first installed. Vinyl does not hold up in heat, it has a terrible thermal expansion co-efficient and is aestetically inferior to other products.

Rkb21- i cant remember if it was discussed since this thread has become epic. If looks are secondary to performance what about an all fiberglass window. Fiberglass is a great material. The sash and frame expand and contract at almost the same rate as the glass making it a very stable product. It is stronger, holds up to sun light better and in case you are a green person it is a more renewable product.

window_mike: yes, this has become quite long...sorry...so many questions. I'm trying to become well informed and hope that I haven't become a nuisance to all of you. It's just a bit daunting.

What fiberglass windows would you recommend? I hadn't really looked into them except the THV compozit.

Thanks!

Fiberglass is a viable alternative as well. The guys with an anti-vinyl bias will make it seem like it is the "end-all, be-all" of window materials, but it is not. Just another material with its own pros and cons. Inline makes a great fiberglass unit with a very low air infiltration rating. The Marvin Integrity/Infinity are well built as well, but lacking in performance in comparison to the Inline (and a few other Canadian fg products) and high end vinyl.
This has gotten to be quite a debate! Lol...
The bottom line is this rbk: regardless of what anyone expresses as opinion on the topic, every window of every material is tested for thermal and structural performance by an independent third party. These ratings of u-value, shgc, air infiltration, and design pressure (there are a few others tested but those are the big ones) are going to give you a comprehensive view of how the window will ACTUALLY perform, and are also very indicative of the design and build quality of the unit. We can talk about all the pros and cons of each material, and all of the other cool features like glass packages, spacers, etc, but at the end of the day, those ratings are truly a sum of those parts. The strength or expansion coefficient of a 20 ft lineal of one material vs another is utterly irrelevant. What matters is the strength of the unit as designed and assembled. In my opinion rbk, what you are weighing here is the balance between appearance, performance, and cost. The only one of those three that is not black and white is appearance, as that is up to your personal preference.

@mike, could you elaborate on the softlite/ gorell, and simonton windows that you have seen "failing miserably" after 4 yrs? I've installed hundreds if not thousands of those products and found them to be pretty good. Anytime I see an issue, it is a seal failure, stress crack, or an installation issue, all of which are common across the various window materials. Either way, any product issue would most certainly be covered under warranty.

I would not call trashing a product based on out-dated, exaggerated, or inaccurate info "balanced". Just sayin.
Vinyl is installed in the southwest with no problem, so heat is not an issue unless you live somewhere that sees temps over 150 degrees. Uv exposure is no concern either with a good product.

homesealed: Thanks for the info. Yes, it is a personal preference wood vs vinyl for the aesthetics. My philosophy is just bc you can afford it, doesn't mean you should choose it if there's something just as good that is more cost effective :)

karateguy: vinyl that is higher end does seem like a great option.

Well, in a couple of days, I will finally get to see the Marvin windows and can have a better handle on that.

I'm just surprised on the pricing of the Marvins. With them doing a full tear out of the 3 patio doors, they are just about 2k more than the Andersen quote.

Anyway, thanks everyone!!!

I think that you are on the right track rbk :) . As I mentioned earlier you won't go wrong either way, its just a matter of which aspect you value more. You definitely want to see and operate each unit, and then sit down and make a decision based on all of the info that you have. Be sure to let us know which direction you choose. :)

Mostly seal failure with condensation between the glass, and yes i realize this can happen to any window. A common problem that happens with viny install is that deductions are not taken off of the meaaurements to allow for expansion and contraction, or at least not sufficient deductions. So when the window expands it has nowhere to go so it caves in on itself causing all sorts of problems. I would attribute this to may of the Vinyl window issues. I would second what Homesealy said about the inline and Marvin(we were bound to agree about something eventually). The one thing i will say about the all ultrex is that it has kind of a modern/commercial look to it so o dont know if it would fit the look of your home. With the wood interior window you get the benefit of fiberglass on the exterior and wood on the interior. If you are going to look at marvin anyway i guess you could ask to see the Integrity as well. It will also be a lot less expensive, similar to Andersen.

I appreciate that we have found some common ground Mike:) ... That said, you know that I still have to correct you on the expansion/seal failure issue, lol.
1) all windows should have cutbacks to allow the new window to be installed square, as most existing openings are not. A window that is stuffed in too tight is not going to operate or seal properly because it will be racked, but even then, that has nothing to do with the glass seals, nor is that specific to the material (ie: wood vs vinyl).
2) Again your characterization of the expansion coefficient of vinyl is exaggerated. You could take a 72" UPVC frame manufactured at a temperature of 60 degrees F, and it would only expand or contract about the thickness of a nickel at 110 degrees or 10 degrees. Further, the windows are engineered with this fact in mind (weatherstripping , etc), so as to avoid air leakage, binding, etc.
On glass seal, ALL windows are designed to allow independent expansion/contraction of glass and sash frame. There is no correlation there between material and seal failure. To that end, there are vinyl windows made that actually integrate the IGU into the vinyl sash frame and while I'm not a big fan of that, they are not failing at any incredible rate. Google "sashlite" to take a peek at that.
The one thing that I will say about vinyl is this: There are literally thousands of vinyl window manufacturers in the US, and many of them make junk. In fact, probably the majority of them do. In addition to that, being that vinyl windows are less expensive, every hack and his brother that wants to sell cheap windows is going to sell vinyl. Now take an industry where most of the products are cheapo garbage, and many of the installers are "caulk and walk" hacks, and what you get is a material that has a bad reputation, undeservedly so. The point that has been made on numerous occasions in this thread and others is that it is unfair to take the worst products and portray it as an accurate representation of the material that it is made of.

Window Mike,

How much do you think a 6' piece of vinyl (uninsulated and therefore subject to the full temperature swings) expands in a 100 degree temperature swing.....the thickness of a nickel. Hardly an amount of expansion that will create a seal failure if properly engineered and clearanced.

I have taken apart a bunch of vinyl windows and with the exception of the Sash-Lite windows, I have never seen a window (vinyl or otherwise) that would foster a seal failure issue as a result of frame expansion and contraction.

The real issue with most vinyl seal failures is that there are a ton of vinyl manufacturers that turn out cheap crap and buy/make cheap crap.

The other concerns that you raised about twin locks and the sagging issues were addressed. They are not required for material failure for bowing but more so to maintain a tight window under pressure.

I think all of the choices mentioned so far are great.

Customer has their pick of the litter.

Is there an echo in here?...lol
Truth be told, WoW had the "nickel" analogy first. Don't worry, it is listed in the bibliography. :D

You and me...best friends forever...!!!

LOL.

Wow! Thank you all!

Although, I am not the OP, I think we may be married to the same man. As rkb21 said, "DH doesn't have time or interest to get involved in these decisions, so I needed to do the research, narrow it down and then make a decision....a daunting task!"

Well, I am here for the same reason. I did some research last year but we never got around to actually looking at windows, so I came to this forum to brush-up on the little I once knew and had since forgotten. I learned more in this one thread than I did in all my previous research.. Thank you so much. I am sure I will have some questions later, but you all have given me an incredibly solid base to start.

You guys ROCK!

Tell your friends!!!

Keep us posted and we will help out however we can.

I'm the 'DH' in my equation, and frankly, can't fathom who wouldn't be interested in knowing all the details related to such a large and important one-time investment like new windows.

But then again, I plan and manage all the reno's in our house. Never hired a contractor - chose my own trades and synced them all up, whether it was the 2 bathrooms or the full kitchen gut job.

I run a very large vintage motorcycle forum, and frankly post information here as much to help inform the question of the moment as well as to create a repository of information for Google and other search engines to find and direct people to. Soon enough all the billions of pages of information on the web will be cataloged in real time and available to us instantly. You'll think of a question and the answer will be in the palm of your hand.

anemome2000: That's really funny! I've been racking my brain and posting a TON of questions here. We haven't come to a final decision yet, but I am SO happy to have found this forum and get help from everyone who has contributed! Good luck on your window journey :)

TorontoTim,

What forum do you run?

Eric

This message if for rkb21. I'm in St. Louis also and it sounds like we're married to the same man! I'm getting to do all the research and make the decision and he trusts me and doesn't care! Anyway, the real reason for the email, are you working with a particualr contractor or just going to window dealers and this time? Who are you dealing with? I'm in the process of seeing if Sunrise is in the area. Do you know the answer to that?

Take care, Stephanie

swmotz: Lol...it's been a long and tiring journey. I've been trying to figure out the windows/doors and planning a kitchen remodel. I'm working with a contractor but for windows, I've contacted the dealers here for Marvin windows, Kolbe, Softlite, and Andersen. I think there is a Sunrise dealer, but we didn't end up calling them b/c we decided to stay with wood windows. I think we're going to end up with Andersens, but I'm still waiting on final numbers from one other window dealer.

Best of luck and happy to help!
[For some reason, I never get emails, not sure what I'm doing wrong on the settings.]

rbk21. I'm the same way! I keep trying to change my settings and cannot get emails. I just keep checking the thread. :) I think we're going with Fiberglass. Did you ever get far enough along in the process to get any recommendations of people who had Marvin fiberglass windows and get their opinions?

Take care, Stephanie

My choice would be Integrity if Marvin is too pricey. But that Marvin quote seems REALLY reasonable. MAKE SURE THEY KNOW H!OW TO INSTALL THEM .I would insist upon asking their installlation process, materials, etc. It matters when you are installing high end windows
Wood is warm, acoustically superior, solid to the touch and just FEELS better than vinyl. Wood is more versatile painted or stained, can be changed if redecorating. My biggest problem with all the vinyl/PVC in the building industry is its environmentally a nightmare.
I have always told people .....windows are life furniture for walls. Sometimes a beautiful wall of windows needs nothing else around them, they can be so beautifully done. And yes your house is beautiful. I would cringe if you choose vinyl. Vinyl is for track homes. Which Yours is not.

Lot of well thought out posts on this thread, not sure about that last one though. I like Marvin and integrity, but if you take a premium vinyl and set it next to an all ultrex integrity, 9 of10 people will chose the vinyl. That without out even considering the major difference in price and air leakage. The " environmental" comment is off base as well. I won't go as far as to call them super green, but they are all made with some recycled content, can save more energy throughout their life of service, and so on and so forth.
It is becoming more common to see vinyl in very high end new construction where people want the top performance and the peace of mind that they won't need to replace rotted windows 10 years down the road.

Saying vinyl is an environmental nightmare is simply
Not true. High end vinyl is made without harmful plasticizers.
I can give a bunch of reasons why wood windows are Bad for the environment. Maybe we could talk about ruining our forsetry and polluting the air with wood window stains and paint. Then we can talk about how wood absorbs moisture and doesnt last nearly as long as high end vinyl; more tree's get cut down.

+1. Each material has some pros and cons in terms of environmental impact, none really leaps and bounds better than the others with all things considered.

Even the wood and fiberglass windows have plastic/vinyl parts in them, especially the wood.