Oberon,

Wow, what a reply. You anwered all of my questions w/ great precision and completeness.

I don't think I have ever rec'd such a detailed response.

What do you do for a living?

Good morning roserx and thank you.

I work in the window / glass industry in the areas of product development, testing, and certification.

Oberon,

You definitely have the insight & knowledge of an industry insider.

My dilemma is trying to decide which gives me the most bang for my buck, new windows vs shutters, as I am pursuing up to a $5K grant thru the My Safe Florida Home program? The program was recently enacted by the state legislature to help homeowners in defraying the costs associated with fortifying one's dwelling for h.cane protection. I am certain that all windows and shutter systems must meet Miami-Dade code requirements in order to qualify for reimbursement.

Once again, thanks for your interest and assistance!

RoseRx

And you are more than welcome.

There are several advantages to using impact glass rather than shutters not having to travel for hours to protect your home if you happen to be away for some reason is certainly a huge one but beyond that:

First, and best (and restating), they are passive protectionyou don't have to do a thing to protect your house if a storm is coming. If you are out-of-town, the house is protected.

Second, (and re-restating) they are passive protection...not just from storms, but from unfriendly people who might want to enter your home when you are not there. Imagine trying to break thru a window or door that has been designed and built to withstand winds of over 150mph and at the same time to withstand impacts from a 2x4 projectile that turns plywood into kindling. Burglars look elsewhere.

Laminated glass, used in impact windows, blocks 99% of UV light from entering your home and also acts as a significant sound barrier as well. Homes that are near airports that are remodeled for soundproofing are retrofitted with laminated glass for that reason. But, those homes generally use a much thinner version than is used for impact resistance.

Unfortunately, looting is sometimes a problem after a major storm, and again that passive protection that impact windows gives you will help keep your belongings in your home long after the storm. The folks who do the deed are going to look at the homes that don't have that sort of protection.

Also, those folks who use shutters or plywood to protect their homes are going to be living in a windowless cave as long as they are in the house with the coverings in place. Folks with impact windows don't have to do that.

From a cost versus value comparison, IF you are planning to replace your windows anyway and you are planning to go with higher-end windows, then replacing your exisiting windows with impact units is cost-competitive with getting impact shutters.

If you are not planning to replace your windows - except to install impact units - then the cost of window replacement can be significantly more than the cost of installing shutters.

I love reading Oberon's posts. He is on a couple of the other discussion boards and a great resource for information. Great posts Obie 1

Thanks! I enjoy posting them as well

Oberon,

You have quite a following amongst the forum's readers and you do make a compelling arguement for upgrading one's windows.

My current windows are still functional, albeit w/ one cracked pane and one w/ internal condensation. The other issue, is that I shelled out $1,500 for 3M's Scotchshield window film a few yrs ago, so that $ would be wasted if I were to replace the windows, although I have since learned that Scotchshield's benefits are questionable.

The salesperson with the windstorm-rated DP50's replacement vinyl windows has been e-mailing me to set up a home measurement, but she has still not replied regarding whether they are impact-resistant, let alone Miami-Dade or Florida Building code approved. She did state today that they are laminated, but does that alone confer projectile protection?

Most people I have spoken to, say that true hurricane-rated windows are $65/sq ft + $200/window installation, where permanently attached powder coated aluminum Bahama, colonial, board & batten are It seems like the more you research, the more information to process and pros and cons become blurred.

Whose window is it?

Laminated glass would generally indicate that it was an impact product, but I have seen examples in Florida of installed windows that were built using laminated glass that were not impact rated, so...

As for pricing, that can be all over the board, unfortunately.

You currently have IG windows thoughout your home? There is a good bit of rustling within the window industry brought about by Florida's new energy code and that does add a newer element to the discussion about the best window options for your climate.

I admit I am not a fan of after-market films. They have their place, but I question their usefulness in many situations. Curious, did you have cracked pane and internal condensation before getting the film applied?

I would be suspect of that film withing regards to the crack that has developed. I have heard more than a few stories of tints or films being applied after the fact superheating the window and popping the seals or cracking the glass.

You can find out which products are Miami-Dade approved (and what they're approved for) at the Miami-Dade County website.

I've had local salespeople try to sell me products that aren't Miami-Dade County approved, and I LIVE in Miami-Dade County.

Oberon,

She clearly stated in her proposal that they are not Miami-Dade approved, but I wonder if they could be Florida Building code approved? Is the Florida Building code slightly less stringent than the Miami-Dade, but still acceptable to H/O insurers for policy discounts? She never did respond to my query about impact resistance, however.

I believe she said the the DP50 windows were mfrd by ESP out of JAX, but I could not find any info on the co w/ a Google search.

The window that fogged up, preceded the application of the 3M Scotchshield. The window that cracked, succeeded the application of the 3M Scotchshield. I thought the role of the 3M Scotchshield was to contain window damage, not prevent it?

RoseRx

Oberon,

It appears as if none of the board & batten shutters are Miami-Dade approved, so I have shifted my focus to windows.
Since I live in the SE, should I be seeking the low-e2's solar control glass?

Hi again roserx,

Besides the Dade approved impact windows there is also ASTM E1886 and ASTM E1996 imapct approved windows.

If you live in Dade, Broward, or parts of Palm Beach counties then you will need Dade approval. Outside of those areas then ASTM will apply. Dade approval is accepted anywhere, but it is only required in the three counties that I mentioned.

The ASTM testing is similar to Dade but the certification requirements are a bit less rigid. The primary advantage of the Dade certification is that it adds a good bit of money into the Dade County treasury - Dade certification is amazingly expensive for the window companies which, unfortunately, is passed on to the consumer in the form of higher priced windows and doors.

Before I go more in depth into non-Dade certified products I should ask if you are in a Dade-required area?

And by all means get windows that have LowE coatings. They WILL save you money on your airconditioning bill.

There are a couple of options available to you in that area as well - either monolitic laminated glass that has the LowE coating between the laminated lites or dual pane windows - one laminated - that have the LowE coating between the two lites of the dual pane.

I can go more in depth on either or both of those options depending on your requirement.

The window that cracked could definitely be related to the film - as "wow" previously suggested. Although the film would help to prevent broken glass from falling out of the frame, the films can cause problems by overheating the glass - again as suggested previously.

pcrodrig,

It is perfectly acceptable to sell non-impact windows in Dade - and I would never suggest that the folks selling such products would ever attempt to confuse the folks that they are attempting to sell to...I would also never suggest that pigs can't fly whenever they have a mind to do so.

Oberon,

I live in NW FL vs SE FL. Our building standards up till now have been less stringent vs SE FL e.g., Dade, Broward, Palm Bch. I am looking for a product that meets the requirements of the My Safe Florida Home program and my H/O insurer, so it does not have to be Miami-Dade per se.

The shutter guy e-mailed me today and said he was going to drop off the engineering designs, but I am no engineer and don't want to have to plead my case to prove that they meet the required standards for protection. I feel they ought to submit the data for approval to be certified, rather than leave it up to me.

How do you feel about low-e2 (spectrally selective) windows? Are they that much superior to the standard low-e? Supposedly they are $25 a copy more.

Thanks again for your expertise!

RoseRx

Okay - much easier.

First, I would suggest dual pane IG windows with LowE2 and laminated glass.

LowE2 is designed to block both far infrared - basically U-value improvement - and solar heat gain IR or near infrared heat.

"Regular" LowE is an excellent emissivity product - which means that it does well on the far or long wave infrared but doesn't do much for the solar gain stuff. You want to block solar heat so you want LowE2.

I agree that it is up to them to prove to you and the code authority that their windows meet the standards - not your responsibility. I would do exactly as you said - tell them to put up or shut up.

Now you just have to make sure that whatever window that you select meet the ASTM requirement and there are many of them out there. I would suggest getting at least four bids before you consider making a final decision.

Salesfolks can be very pushy and hard sell isn't uncommon unfortunately. But, use the information that you have learned here and you will be ahead of the game when negotiating - and feel free to ask about any unfamiliar terms or ideas that they may mention.

Oberon,

Thanks again for you last response.

Does "IG" = insulated glass?

I have pretty much narrowed down to Simonton or Alside. I was going to go w/ Silverline by Anderson, only to learn that it was Anderson's low-end leader.

By ASTM, are you referring to ASTM E1886 & E1996?

RoseRx

IG = Insulating Glass (if you want to get really technical - lol)

And, ASTM is 1886 and 1996.

Andersen bought Silverline, but kept them as a totally separate company

and you are quite welcome - and I can actually keep my posts short, sometimes

Are dbl hung the way to go, for cleaning or if glass needs replacing or does dbl hung have disadvantages too?

Not necessarily.

All window types have advantages and disadvantages, it is really more a matter of personal preference - depends primarily on what style you like (and want) and to some folks what style best fits their home.

Oberon,

With all things being equal, I would think the dbl hung would be adavantageous as they afford one the ability to easily swap out damaged glass w/o having to replace the whole window unit, not to mention ease of cleaning or am I being too simplistic in my assessment?

What is the typical warr period for the insulating glass component of an impact window? I know it's common for the frame to offer lifetime warr?

RoseRx

there is a esp in north florida call energy saving products
they do have a dp50 vinly and alum. single hung impact that is astm approved but no noa for dade county.they also don't
use laminated glass they put a 15 mil film on the number 2 and 3 surface of i.g unit using 1/8 to 3/16 annealed glass
very light weight impact window.

roserx,

Impact glass warranties can vary a great deal by manufacturer. While non-impact IGU's often carry 20 year, or better, warranties, impact glass is often no more than five years.

Some companies offer 10 but not many.

It isn't that they expect the units to fail, it is that they have a certain conservatism since this is such a new product.

Again, pertaining to style it is a personal preference and there are windows that are easy to access for cleaning and windows that are difficult - in all styles.

There are no window films that meet Dade requirements. Some film folks claim to meet ASTM requirments - and for every product there is a potential customer.

Does anyone have experience with the Energy Saving Products vinyl windows mentioned in Bowhunter 32052's posting?

Just how effective are 3m Scotchfield window films-i have material saying they passed stringent tests for wind velocity, pressure loads and missile impact
I am in SC on an inlet with the ocean beyond the inlet
The film is being represented to me to be effective in preventing penetration in cat 1-3 hurricanes

Oberon, is the above an accurate representation of these films
thanks a lot,
Packy

Packy,

Does the literature that came with the film mention the specific tests that were passed? Or at what level the product was actually certified?

Again, there are no after-market films that meet Dade requirements, but there are some that meet less-severe levels of the ASTM requirements.

Films can offer potential - if limited - additional protection from flying debris or high pressure during severe weather. It is very important that they be installed exactly as required by the manufacturer though.

The only way a manufacturer can claim impact resistance is to have had the windows tested to the TAS 201,202,203 protocols. The DP 50 classification comes from the WDMA hallmark certifications that embody the National and Canadian Standards for windows and doors.

Impact windows are superior to shutters because they offer passive protection against windborne debris, protection against UV and also protection against break-in. You can receive a reduction in your insurance if you can certify the home has approved impact windows.

The State of Florida also runs a certification registry that is the equivalent. They have a website that will show you what the window is approved fro including impact and if it is approved for the HVHZ. I believe the site is www.floridabuilding.org.

If not you can find it on Myflorida.com. The state has mandated that Dade County accept any window certified under the States registry. The key is what the window was tested for. It can be listed with the state but not certified "impact" resistant. Make sure what you are buying is certified impact resistant. Not all windows in Florida are required to be impact resistant, but if you live within 75 miles of the coast it is a very good idea for a lot of reasons.

Make sure that they are not trying to sell you a non-impact tested window that happens to have certified "impact" resistant glass. This does not mean they can claim that the window is impact resistant without testing to the TAS protocols. For more info see my companies link.

If you really want to understand how the window has perfromed in testing, request a copy of the test report from the manufacturers. It will list the actual air infiltration and explain all the test protocols the window was subjected to.

I would appreciate advice on our purchase of replacement windows and doors for a beach home on a barrier island off North Carolina. We've owned it for almost 15 years, and it's a vacation place.

The house has 4 sliding-glass door openings that are 8 feet wide. A fifth sliding-glass door opening is 6 feet wide. The sliding glass doors are constantly off track, leaky, and wobbly. One has a totally clouded stationary glass pane, thus obscuring 50% of the view at that opening.

The house has 10 windows. They're double-hung, vinyl, with leaks and disintegrating parts that make the tilt-to-clean mechanism in the bottoms non-functional. (The tops don't tilt at all, so they either stay dirty or make us risk falling out a window to clean a top pane.)

8 of the windows have redwood bermuda shutters that we make sure to latch to prepare for hurricanes. For the sliding glass doors, we have 4X8 sheets of plywood that we have to pull out, get up, etc.

It's time to replace all this. We've contacted a contractor about impact-glass windows and doors. He has proposed replacing the sliding glass doors in the 8-foot openings with 1 hinged 3-foot door per opening, flanked by 2 stationary doors (framed sheets of glass)that would be about 2 1/2 feet wide each. (So, each opening would now be a hinged door in the middle of 2 solid panes.) The 6-foot opening would have a 3-foot hinged door and a 3-foot solid pane. The windows would all be double-hung. All this would be in the Miami-Dade storm-impact, Low E, glass, Andersen brand. The proposed cost for just the windows and doors is $33,500. (That's right off the computer sheet from the Andersen rep, computer printouts and specs right there.) When building materials, paint, labor, etc., get added, it comes to $51,000 for the project. If we were to use regular glass (not the impact glass), the cost of the windows and doors would be about half the price of the impact glass windows and doors.

We're getting too old to put up plywood, drag it around, etc. We figure we could just get impact glass on the windows that don't have bermuda shutters, but that would still leave us with all these big door openings. Each respective 8-foot door opening costs about $5000 per the Andersen estimate. That would be about $3000 apiece for regular glass instead of impact. Then we would be back with the plywood...

This place is sandy, sunny and salty, with a harsh environment that eats pits into alumininum and totally eats nails or screws that aren't stainless steel. The estimates are for using copper flashing, stainless steel nails, window-wrap membrane in the installation, etc. These aren't custom sizes, just replacement.

So, is this reasonable? Should I be asking about lesser-quality windows? We don't plan to sell our house, and this property has gotten very valuable since we bought it. Still, I wonder if Andersen is an unnecessary elite brand, and whether I could do as well to get another brand. (If so, I don't know what that would be, whether another manufacturer would stand behind the product, etc.) Today I asked the contractor about MW windows, and he said he could get an estimate. Does anyone know about that company or another?

I understand that Oberon's analysis says the impact glass is really worth it, but I'm concerned that the whole housing of the window or door better stand up, too. Still, this is horribly expensive.

Any thoughts and advice would be greatly appreciated.

I just finished replacing 17 windows in my 30 year old house with PGT Winguard. The replacements included 5 sliding windows, 8 large casements and 6 single hung.(I live in FL a mile from the ocean.) They have aluminum frames, and despite a lot of comments here about concern with aluminum and salt/humidity etc, all the window contractors I talked to here in FL felt aluminum was the only way to go and that aluminum clad wood was problematic in terms of water, rot, humidity and termites. Whatever. Finally I had to decide, and money (as usual) entered in. The PGTs cost 21K installed. Alum clad wood was twice that. But the prices for the sliding glass door replacements were really high. In fact we opted not to do our sliders (3 X 9 feet and one X 12 feet) yet due to costs. The 9 footers were 5 K each with impact glass. We'll have to wait a bit longer with those, and we will continue to use shutters for now.

Overall I must say I like the new windows a lot. They are very solid, quiet and operate smoothly. I got the new wood-grained look that PGT offers and I think it's fairly convincing. The PGT website is pretty near worthless however, so finding a local distibutor is important.

As an aside, the window contractors down here in Florida seemed pretty hungry for business and I think it's a good time to do the replacing. Don't know about NC though. Good luck!

Thanks, Kate. I'm going to look into PGT Winguard (although they do have a worthless website) and also revisit the aluminum frames. It seems like prices are all going to be high to get good quality, but I just want to be sure it's good. Sounds like yours turned out well, so I'm going to check those out. Thanks once more.

If you are considering replacing your windows in North Carolina on the coast, I would definitely lean toward the impact windows. They offer passive protection. This means, if you are off in Europe when a storm approaches, you do not have to worry about trying to find someone to install your shutters. IN Florida, you can save quite a chuck on your homeowners insurance if you have impact windows versus shutters for this very reason. They will add value to your home over the years.

The numbers you laid out for the Andersen windows is in line. One thing you need to understand, It is unlikely you will find a clad wood slider that will meet the DP requirements where you are, hence the arrangement with a center door and flanking sidelights.

Last I looked Andersen did not have approvals for Impact with Insulated Glass. In your climate, I would look for an impact window with a energy star qualification for your zone. This will certainly require insulated glass. This will save you up to 30% per month on your heating bills versus putting in monolithic glazing. It will pay back in spades.

As to aluminum clad wood windows, if you go for the new AAMA 2605 powder coat finish, this will hold up much better in your area. You will need to wash the windows every 3-6 months to maintain the warranty on the paint. You can get 2605 finishes with a warranty of up to 10 years on the finish.

I want replacement windows that are both Impact and energy-tax-credit eligible. My research indicates PGT Vinyl WinGuard 500 Series (some configurations) and JeldWen Premium Atlantic Vinyl (again, some setups) do both. But my window retailer says that no vinyl window meets Miami-Dade DP requirements for my house (one-story CBS 4 miles from ocean). I thought +/-50 was sufficient; if not do I have to get an engineering study or how will I know how much is enough? Or does +/- 50 or greater meet code for permitting? Thanks!

Simonton makes the Stormbreaker Series windows that are between a DP50 and a DP65 depending on the size.

Live in NW Florida Panhandle, still researching windows and french doors for a house addition. Has anyone installed new impact doors and windows? Due to the high cost, are you happy with your choice? Thanks!