Insulated glass systems are well proven and do not loose their inert gas in less 10 years.

Most newer systems have identified leakage rates of less than 2% per annum.

Storm windows are great options in historic applications but they are pretty unsightly in others. Insulated storm windows are preferred these days as compared to monolithic glass storms.

1. With the style of your home, I like double hungs WITH grids. Not only that, but retaining the grids in the garage will make it look weird if the new windows do not have them.
2. Softlite does indeed make a good vinyl window. In your area, you probably have access to Okna/Himark and Sunrise as well which are other great options. In fact, Windows on Washington is in VA and may serve your area. As you have already seen, he is a tremendous resource.
3. That post about insulated glass is garbage. IG units have come along way in recent years, especially when dealing with a quality product. I don't know of any "quality" manufacturers that even offer single pane unless it is an off-the-wall custom request. Storm windows are a nice, bang-for-the buck option, but not if your existing windows are shot.
4. On the gases, it can depend on manufacturer. Argon is pretty much "standard", so in most cases you pay no more for it, or a minimal charge. Krypton is generally far more expensive and therefore not worth the extra $$$, but some companies do offer it at a pretty aggressive price, so it really just depends on how much it costs.

This post was edited by HomeSealed on Mon, Jan 7, 13 at 10:28

time2bbq,

An excellent gauge of the quality of insulated glass units is to read the warranty - and just because it says "Lifetime" doesn't make it a good warranty, either. As always, read the fine print. Most all are "pro-rated" and don't include the labor to fix your window. By the time the window is 10 years old, you won't be getting much monetary assistance from the manufacturer. At 20 years, your "Lifetime" warranty is nothing but paper.

It's easy for a manufacturer to ship out a $30 IGU to your house, but it's quite difficult to get one installed into the sash in your home for less than $100. Hypothetically, 23 IGU replacements would be $2300. It's doubtful that all of these windows will fail in the next 10 years, but you already know what happens in 12. What will the head count be in another 8 years?

No one has said that IGUs haven't come a long way. What I said is that they aren't as good as many manufacturers (and salesmen) want you to think they are. Studies on field installations (not laboratory) reveal a loss of well over 2% efficiency per year, easily. Don't believe me, rather you check with Glass Magazine or other glass trade forums. ALL window manufacturers only gauge their products with testing when the windows are NEW - not that have been installed in the field for 5 or 10 years.

Here's a company that exists solely on the business generated by bad IGUs. If there are enough IGU failures to support an entire business, at that point common sense should take over. Can you say "supply & demand"?

http://www.thefogpro.com/blank.html

I have yet to see a warranty that covers "performance loss". I wonder why that is?

Here is one publication: http://www.familyhandyman.com/DIY-Projects/Doors---Windows/Window-Repair/why-insulated-window-glass-fogs/View-All

I can get more information if you would like, but my suggestion is for some posters on this forum to stop touting IGUs as the "solution" when window replacement is needed.

In my humble opinion, until equalizing pressure technology is perfected, there will always be IGU failure. Sorry, but you can't fight physics, no matter how a sales pitch is spun.

Not all storm windows are unsightly and using storm windows will not fix windows that are rotted. However, if you are not in the financial position to shell out big bucks for replacement windows, storm windows may get you "over the hump" until your wallet is in better shape.

Here is a link that might be useful: Today's Homeowner

Please post up any studies that show a 2% loss in efficiency per year.

The newer gas loss specifications that I see are less than 2% per year as I stated.

The insulating gas only amounts to about a 15-20% improvement over standard and static air. If all the gas leaked out, you would still have a more efficient window than the storm window/single pane combination.

This subject has been hashed out quite considerably and I would encourage you to read this thread that is below. It debunks most of what you are claiming in thorough fashion.

There were far more exhaustive studies posted and the rebuttals were data based as compared to "ideas" about a given subject matter.

Please tell me what you mean by "equalizing pressure technology". Are you referring to Dalton's Law of Partial Pressures? If so, how were you intended circumventing that? PIB rubber already does a great job in terms of its impermeability to the insulating gasses.

Putting storm windows on a non-historic wood window is usually a poor investment given the lack of value in the poor window and its complete lack of any historic value.

Putting storms on vinyl windows is outright incorrect.

Here is a link that might be useful: Repair, Don't Replace

+1 to WoW's comments.
@storm: What is your contention here? That insulated glass units will not maintain their seal forever? Or that storm windows can be a good investment?... I don't think that you would find anyone here that would argue with either of those statements. That said, your characterization of IG units is inaccurate. It would be like saying that you should not by a car because the engine won't last forever. A bike will not be as fast, but it'll perform far longer.
Storm windows are a great, cost-effective solution for folks that have original windows that are still in good condition (in most circumstances). Are there a lot of sleaze-ball sales guys running around telling people that they need replacement windows when they really don't? Yup... But they are few and far between around the web forums.
Window replacement is something that must be done for many people, and your comments on IGU's lead to nothing but confusion... that is unless you are recommending that they purchase a single pane window with combo storm unit?

H.S.

Yes, opting for a good single pane window & storms, imho, is better than stand-alone IGUs. Depending upon your climate, it is better in some locales that in others.

In high sun areas like the the SW and Gulf Coast, I think PVC is a definite no-no in standalone or with storms. Plastics and sun simply don't mix unless the plastic has a 2 mil or thicker coating to prevent UV exposure. Plus, 160-180 degree deformation temps are too low and not always accurate. I believe that pvc is dimensionally/structurally affected at even lower temps. Exterior surface applied film technology is also improving. These may help to lower the heat energy allowed to pass beyond the surface of the storm window.

Proper weather sealing and insulating is a must, but I feel that the ROI is much faster than stand alone IGUs. Repair costs from vandalism and other projectiles also extend the payback and keep the ROI timeline shorter with storms. If you have a problem with insect or bird's nests in window openings, storm windows will also lower your maintenance and stinging insect problems.

Just my results from field tests. I don't have a large database yet, but I am retrieving more as time goes on. I'm also conducting a 5 year performance test to acquire actual data from the field.

What exactly do these field tests consist of?
The fact of the matter is, despite your other remark about "lab testing", there is REAL data to be had in the field in the form thermal imaging, blower door, and computer modeling. In my experience, these ACTUAL, verifiable field tests generally confirm the validity of "lab" ratings short of external circumstances such as poor installation.
I'm not sure if your vendetta against replacement windows is due to a family member getting ripped-off or something along those lines, but your contentions are just as misguided as those salesman that push windows on the folks that don't need them. Fact is, replacement windows, storm windows, films, weatherization, etc all have their place and are appropriate depending on circumstances.
You have accused posters here of shamelessly and incorrectly pushing windows, and exaggerating ROI, and I'm afraid that I'm going to have to call you out on that. If you take some time to read through past posts, you'll see mentioned by various contributors including WoW and myself that a home's performance should be looked at as a WHOLE, and prioritized as such. More often than not, attic insulation, air-sealing, weatherstripping, storm windows, etc do offer a better ROI than replacement windows purely from an energy savings point of view. Perhaps this forum and its posts seem tilted toward replacing windows, and to that I'd childishly respond: Duh. It's a window forum filled with people asking specific questions about window products, installation procedures, etc.

H.S.

Maybe you're right - maybe I am too close to this situation, but it's not just the salesman's fault - someone had to hire him and approve his sales and his tactics. And it's not just a sales problem, it's an industry problem and a corporate America problem. Somehow making a descent buck and having some integrity has been replaced with getting all that you can, while you can and to heck with doing what's right for people.

I don't recall accusing any specific poster of improprieties, but I have taken aim at the industry. I also have taken aim at insulated glass because so many refer to it as the be all, end all of replacement windows, which it is not. We live in a real world not a laboratory.

I have read posts of homeowners who have 12 year old windows and they have multiple seal failures and I also have friends who have suffered the same with products from Sears and others, but every salesperson wants to tout them as a "terrific" product. Why would a person with this knowledge continue to "live the lie"?

My sister had 9 windows installed 4 years ago and 2 of them failed within days of each other after only 2 months. Hardly a ringing endorsement, right? But still the window promoters are quick to reference product performance statistics and lab test results, but slow (at best) to mention contrary facts about seal failures from other forums and sources that tell another story. Can you tell me why someone would say something that misleading and just casually let it go at that?

The window reps want to spew statistics about gas leakage only being 2% per year from IGUs, but what percentage of leakage is there in a window full of condensation after only 2 months? I'm no Rhodes Scholar but I'm thinking in the neighborhood of 100%.

It's really quite simple. Instead of saying "ABC Windows are great and will do an excellent job for you and will pay for themselves through energy savings", how about saying "There are no perfect IGU windows on the market, but ABC Windows seem to have the least amount of failures, the company responds quickly to these warranty issues and the windows help save money on your energy costs", which would be MUCH closer to the truth.

I don't have a problem with anyone on here giving SOUND advice to those asking questions, but I have yet to read a post where someone has laid out the facts of insulated glass - both benefits AND drawbacks. How many posts are there about storm windows? Yes, I know it's old technology so it's boring. Triple glazed windows or internal film barrier technology are what's hot. If you ask me they are just more places to leak and more problems with distortion or sagging internal film.

I guess I'm just getting old. I love rock & roll, little children and pets yet I can listen to Papa Roach and Pearl Jam, too. I just can't tolerate rap music and people who try to cloak the facts during a sales pitch or steer someone wrong by omitting important information. It's comparable to some guy hitting on my daughter when his left ring finger has a tan line on it while he espouses his bachelorhood. Maybe you could direct me to a thread on here where any poster, in an advisory capacity, took the responsibility to help police the industry and call a spade a spade.

It would seem ridiculous to have every poster on here who represents windows to open their postings with "I am a window representative and I'm only going to tell you want I feel you should know." But it almost appears to be called for.

I realize that we are waaay off topic here, but it seems like I have been labeled as the bad guy for trying to bring out the reality of some of the information printed in this forum but more importantly the information that HASN'T been printed.

Here's one more point to ponder - we don't have a slew of overbearing government regulations regarding window manufacturing because the window industry is too honest.

If you are here to help folks, then help them - educate them and make them window experts. That's how you help them. A fully informed consumer makes the best customer. Wouldn't you agree, H.S.?

A storm window can improve the U-factor by 50%. It will also improve the STC,DP, Air infiltration by quite a bit as well. Storms are still an excellent bang for the buck and will protect that expensive wood window prone to rot.

A storm window will certainly improve performance of a window unit and when installed properly performs quite well.

Storm windows have no application though dealing with:
-failing vinyl windows
-double pane wood windows that have frame failures
-people that don't want the hassle of dealing with storms
-people that don't want to change the outward appearance of their home
-windows that are rotted out and require significant rot/sill repairs or a full tear out
-people that don't like the look a storm creates when from inside the home

This entire rationale and thought process was pretty well hashed out in the "Repair, Don't Replace" thread.

There was also considerable data in that thread that clearly demonstrated this idea of storm windows providing better energy efficiency than a sealed IGU is just not true.

Stormstopper,

I will concede your concern that IGU failures can and do happen. This is a question of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Well engineered and built IGUs have been proven to last quite a long while if properly engineered and deployed. My father has 25 year old sealed IGUs in his home.

I have 10 years of observable data and an IGU failure rate of less than 1% in our company.

Should we not install the other 99% for fear they will fail.

Name me any type of construction material and I can quote you a long list of failures in it. Does that mean we should stop building with it? EIFs failed (albeit mostly from poor install) so should we not do stucco.

Split block failed so should we not do block/brick and mortar?

You are never without risk no matter what material you choose and you can only do your research as a customer and hope that the company stands behind it and continues to exist.

There are no guarantees in this economy. GM went bankrupt and they were the largest company in the world in their history and the Government is right around the corner from bankruptcy. Should the people that counted on Social Security stop paying for fear it will not be there?

SS: "If you are here to help folks, then help them - educate them and make them window experts. That's how you help them. A fully informed consumer makes the best customer. Wouldn't you agree, H.S.?"

I certainly would agree with that. That is why myself and others spend time helping folks wade through the shark infested waters that are the replacement window industry. I can't count how many people that have been saved from paying $1000+ for a junk windows by reading this forum and others and I'm quite proud of that. That is the purpose of these communities: To help others by answering their questions and not going on a soap box to answer a question that nobody asked, and furthermore, not doing so with information that is hyperbole at best, and/or completely inaccurate at worst.
I would not go to a forum discussing Tv's and hijack a thread comparing Samsung and LG by saying " They both stink! LCD panels don't last as long as tube tv's and the picture is not even as good. Tube tv's are the way to go!" That would be entirely irrelevant on one point and incorrect on the other... Ahem...

SS: "It's really quite simple. Instead of saying "ABC Windows are great and will do an excellent job for you and will pay for themselves through energy savings", how about saying "There are no perfect IGU windows on the market, but ABC Windows seem to have the least amount of failures, the company responds quickly to these warranty issues and the windows help save money on your energy costs", which would be MUCH closer to the truth."

Again, you are absolutely correct. Nobody here says anything else than that. The difference is, issues that are far more common such as air leakage, frame construction, thermal performance, poor installation, etc are more widely discussed. IGU's can and do fail on occasion just like any other consumable product, and purchasing a good quality window from a reputable company will mitigate the chances of both product failure and poor service/added expenses should a failure occur. Again, this is no different from any other product from cars, to tv's, or roofing shingles.
I think that this conversation has run its course at this point...

This post was edited by HomeSealed on Tue, Jan 8, 13 at 10:07

wow,

Installing storm windows over any failing windows can delay the window replacement timetable for the homeowner. Many people aren't prepared for the window replacement costs and need time to budget. The windows WILL eventually need to be replaced and, with a little planning by the replacement company, reusing the storms on the replacements will assure the homeowner of the replacement windows' longevity giving the homeowner better service life and giving the window manufacturer good statistical data to spin in their next literature release.

PVC windows are doomed from the beginning and should only be used in temperate climates and those applications where limited exposure to UV rays can be assured.

I don't know what you mean by the homeowner hassle of storms.

Are you saying that replacement windows don't change the appearance of a home but storm windows do? Unless the windows are replaced with the exact replica units, the house WILL look different, regardless. Now we are just arguing "degrees" and homeowner acceptability.

Not all storm windows are ugly but a lower electric bill can make them even the ugliest ones look gorgeous - especially if you are on a fixed income.

Yes, old window repair vs. new window replacement was "hashed out" well. Good points were made on both sides using the information available. Industry supplied data can't be taken as gospel when field data conflicts. Common sense tells me that something doesn't wash. I didn't come away with either option being the ideal for any given situation, but as you pointed out designed obsolescence, a disposable mindset and guarantees of future product demand all play a part.

I have been through some terrific blizzards and tropical storms in my life. I know for a fact that storm windows will protect any window and save energy. I know that it wasn't my imagination so I'm jaded and biased in favor of storm windows. I'm also willing to admit that they aren't perfect for every application.

I am glad that your company has a great track record where you are. To say that you are "lucky" would be an insult to you. It takes planning, work, good people and attention to detail to be successful at the installation of anything. My hat is off to you. I wish other service industries would follow your lead.

Your paradox posed about the other 99% only serves to tarnish your intelligence. I'll ignore it 'cuz I think you're smarter than the remark reflects.

Stucco, by definition is spec'd out as being 7/8" thick. Current constructions are lucky to use 50% of that. This is another example trying to push a new (cost-cutting) technology to market before it is ready.

Block failure is in non-related industry but it's percentages could be reduced to the window industry's failure percentages if they wanted to. We have the inspection technology to do so, it's simply not a priority until the government sees it as a problem and tightens regulations. If the window industry has foreseen the regulations coming due to profit motivations, I hope they would have had the smarts to police themselves to avoid it, but that's water under the bridge.

When it comes to customers doing research, isn't that what this forum is for? What I see from many posters on here is simply reiteration of the manufacturers literature. Why should they come here if that if all that they are going to hear? They may as well stick to company web sites. I contend that they come here for OBJECTIVE views. Since you have a great track record, I would think that a conscientious window rep would be telling them what to avoid, deceptive tactics that might be used by less-ingenuous companies, installation short cuts to watch out for - things like that. That's why I go to forums - for help to minimize the risk you speak of! It doesn't matter if it's a motorcycle forum, a woodworking forum or a cnc machine forum....I'm looking for objective opinions, not manufacturer specification drivel. I can find that on their web site.

This isn't a political forum but the history of corruption in politics that served to bastardize FDR's intent is well documented. You may want to rethink that "no guarantees" statement. Corruption in government is a certain guarantee. If we can't agree on that there is little common ground.

H.S.

I apologize that I didn't go back and research this forum before posting my initial post, but I don't know of many who do.

I simply saw someone asking for help and until I posted, no one even offered up any option to time2bbq other than IGU windows. I simply saw them being led down the same road. When the poster already has IGU failure, I automatically think that maybe something else might be in the off'ing, but that's just me. It was and remains the reason for my initial post, which by the way I closed with "JMHO".

To say that IGU failures are hardly an issue in the industry when the poster already has multiple failures seems to beg for other options to be brought to the table.
That's all that I did.

No one inquired as to why I had this opinion, rather my opinion was summarily dismissed as hogwash. But I suppose when you only deal in a certain area of the country, it's easy to assume things.

If I have led time2bbq down a destructive path or have given him bad advice, I sincerely apologize. I am not a window manufacturer but I do use them and only offered him my life experience. I also apologize the information regarding failures by time2bbq conflicts with that of the industry but it changes little.

Fair enough :)
At least Time2bbq is going to have an entertaining read once he's done on the grill, lol.

This post was edited by HomeSealed on Tue, Jan 8, 13 at 12:04

H.S.

I don't know how you at this philosophy and it's a bit off topic , but let me say this.

As I see it, MOST government manufacturing regulation is precipitation resulting from the lack of an industry to police itself. In other words, protecting the safety of it's citizens from what's in the marketplace because the industry has ignored injury and quality as being substandard.

Some regulation is a result of lobbying to prevent competition - like the gaming and insurance industries.

Some aver that the market will eventually weed out poor products and bad corporations and only a few will be harmed in the process, but in some cases this has been proven to be untrue. Besides, collateral damage is always acceptable when you aren't one of the victims! LOL

You want a company to install storm windows to band-aid a poor window and then install them over the new window?

What about the impact on visible light, visible projection of the home, HOA implications, and the potential for excessive heat and warranty exclusions of a storm window/insulated window combo?

So none of the UV inhibitors that are incorporated to the newer plastics do their job? To that extent I guess all of the PVC trim on cars are doomed?

You are arguing a point that is not being argued. No one is debating whether or not storm windows work, just whether or not they are the appropriate application and viable in most of the replacement scenarios.

Please provide some...heck any...of the studies or real world observational data (not what you think you have seen...data) that shows that storm windows are superior in these applications.

Do you have storm windows on your home? Please post up some pictures from the outside and the inside so customer can see how nice they look.

I am sure people would appreciate the visual so they can see what they might be investing in.

Smarter than what remark. I said that I have data (not ideas or opinions) but data that we have observed about a 1% IGU failure rate due to seal failures. Most of these seal failures have been from a manufacturer that we no long represent but they continue to warranty the defective units.

I have no doubt that there will continue to be failures, however, you (not me) are the person that claims that warranties are bogus and that IGUs fail with the gas leaking out in less than 10 years.

You probably need to read the comments of this forum a bit more carefully. You will see that the regular posters on here (Toddinmn, HomeSealed, mmarse, Buddy110, EcoStar, UltraWindows, etc) all do just that....help consumers navigate difficult decisions and give sound advice (even so as to recommend storm windows....yes STORM WINDOWS...from time to time).

Nobody has served to "bastardize" FDRs intent. Social security is a flawed system and relies on more people paying into the system. It is the classic definition of a ponzi scheme on a grand scale.

While I would agree that industry often abuses its consumers from time to time, turning to the government vs relying on the private sector is flawed to put it mildly.

Answers as follows:

Yes....and I'm sorry that it seems incredulous to you and rubs you the wrong way. Who's the homeowner going to call when he finally has the money for new windows? The one who put up the storms and helped him find a way to afford them or the guy who scoffed at the idea and walked away?

The OP mentioned saving energy, UF, SHGC and foggy units as his concerns but not VT or HOA. Storms would easily offer a uniform look. However, I'm sure that I could find some really ugly, bulky looking ones to support your argument.

The addition of uv inhibitors in a plastic affects it's physical properties. That is why the formulators are limited as to how much they can use depending upon the processing involved. Compression molding, extruding and injection molding resins vary as to how much can be added before affecting the stork or finished part. Yes all pvc parts on automobiles are doomed. Ask any Avalanche or Element owner that has to park their vehicle outside.

I never stated (nor will I) that storm windows were perfect for every application. I only offered them up to the OP as an option and warned against IGUs because he had already had failures (greater than 1% I might add).

I have already posted links to storm window sites with plenty of info in previous posts. An Internet search will reveal more data and discussions.

I don't have storm windows, yet. My new HOA hasn't reviewed my application yet. I will be happy to send pics of the finished project and electric bill when & if they are approved. If they won't approve them, I will be forced to use interior type, instead. Not my option of choice, for sure.

You 99% remark was the reference. But you are welcome to dispose of them out if you wish. Your call on that one.

You seem to take pleasure in using words that have never been spoken my me. There seems to be no "middle of the road" for you - it's either the left side or the right. I NEVER called ANY warranty "bogus" - your word - not mine. I merely stated that the majority of them do more to protect the manufacturer than the consumer. If you want to call them bogus, that's fine. Please don't accuse me of it, ok? I WILL admit to not calling then "stellar" in their coverage (Anderson and the big players better than most).

wow, when you first came to this forum did you check out the history of the previous posters or just jump in and try to help someone with a problem? I didn't, I confess - guilty as charged.

You may want to study some history of the intent of Social Security before you lambaste it. It may well be a Ponzi scheme (if you REALLY butcher the definition) currently, but it was self supporting at it's inception and would be even more so today if it had been left alone with only MINOR tweaks, if any. As I understand it, S.S. ran a surplus for over 25 years until 2009 when tax revenues fell so low and spending soared to a point that the rest of our government had to borrow from it. Again...waaay off topic.

I couldn't agree with you more on this last point. Industries should police themselves. Collusion and price fixing is always suspect, too. Nobody wants to be the bad guy and call out the backsliders and you can't blame them. That's when the government feels the need (or gets pressured) to step in. Shysters and snake oil salesmen need to be out of the industry completely. Allowing companies to go bankrupt on Friday and reopen on Monday with the influences of the same principles that were in charge prior is an issue that doesn't set well with many folks.

Storm,

This "discussion" of sorts will probably go a bit better if we don't try to infer additional meaning into what the other person said.

When I post a question, it is...well...a question. It does not mean that I am "incredulous and rubbed the wrong way".

How did you even read that into what I said. It was a question and that was all.

My question was based on the information that followed shortly there after about the warranty implications of just such a combination (i.e. insulated window with storm). While it may work, it is not a vetted combination and will likely be the basis to invalidate a warranty. These warranties are, as you have pointed out, are looking for any reason to deny claim.

The original poster did mention UF but we should probably go ahead and adjust that for correctness as I am sure "time2bbq" was referencing UV.

Storms, unless a hard coat low-e or insulated soft-coat low-e equip (although I know we don't like insulated glass) do very little to block any UV or SHGC reduction.

Storm windows may offer a uniform look from the exterior but you will not find a homeowner in America that would not notice the different look and reduction in clear visibility with a storm window from the inside looking out.

If you are going from storm windows to storm window, no big deal and you will not note a difference. If you are going from no storm windows to storm windows, prepare for a shift in visibility and interior look. Not slamming them for that, just the facts.

Gray and black PVC parts such as those on Azteks and Elements are going to be subject to substantially more radiant heat as a result of their darker colors and therefore degrade much more quickly.

Links to a bunch of sites are not really furthering the argument or explaining any of the data. You have to read these sites as a casual observer might. This thread, for example, is a perfect example of a thread that will hardly ever get consumed. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but you and I both wasted a bunch of time verbally/posting jabbing.

Coming in and damning the entire IGU industry is somewhat equivalent to yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater and claiming free speech.

I was merely asking for some critical thought on your part to address the data that had been hashed out in the other thread "Repair, Don't Replace".

I will be very interested to see the data from your home and would like to see a before and after blower door test as well. The audit should also certify the building conditions before and after the test so as to maintain consistency. That would be standard verbiage in the audit.

I addressed your 99% remark already. My data (from record keeping and warranty claims) shows that we see failed IGU rates of about 1%. I am not sure what additional clarity I can shed on that.

Most projects we do are about a 15 window average. 15 windows x 2 sashes = 30 sashes. It is not out of the realm of reality to see about a 1 IGU failure rate per 3 installed projects over the 5-7 year mark.

You are right. I don't see where you said "Bogus" specifically. My mistake.

This is what you did say: "By the time the window is 10 years old, you won't be getting much monetary assistance from the manufacturer. At 20 years, your "Lifetime" warranty is nothing but paper."

You also said that window salespeople that sell IGUs are: "Why would a person with this knowledge continue to "live the lie"

and

"The window reps want to spew statistics about gas leakage only being 2% per year from IGUs, but what percentage of leakage is there in a window full of condensation after only 2 months?"

Seems that you have been the person slinging more of the verbal arrows. Between accusing people of "living the lie", your warranty is "nothing but paper". Perhaps I used the word bogus because that is what your remarks seem to indicated you feel of a warranty.

Not one of the posters mentioned above has ever....read...ever, said that new window would pay for themselves.

You are the only person to have posted some information about saving that was from the DOE: "The Dept. of Energy says that 40% of your heating/cooling costs are lost through your windows."

By the way, that study is complete bunk because the very wording of it leads consumers to think that they could save 40% but that is a separate subject matter. I am sure the window industry helped propagate that half truth as well.

I asked for some studies of trade magazine articles about IGU failures but your only support, to this point, has been the existence of a "De-Fog" section of the industry. How well are most of those businesses doing now? I know of 3 in my area that no longer exist.

Whether that is as a result of the Federal Government's programs to prop up the window industry or a declining rate of seal failure...I can't be certain.

Social Security is and was on a path to failure. Its basis and primary assumption was a lifespan that has dramatically been extended via modern medicine. The system has that inherent flaw and will not exist in 20 years. I hope you get your money out before then!!!

Well...how about that. Common ground.

We can end on a good note then!!!

wow,

Such is the shortcoming of the written word. I read your question as more a challenge than a question and for that I apologize.

My storm window application is limited to use over single pane windows as IGU manufacturers worry about the coverage of their product. Maybe you can tell me why that is? Or if you can point me towards some data of any kind, I would appreciate it. Is it the idea of "cooking" the face of the window from the trapped heat?

UF to UV? I never even considered it - may well have been a spelling error on the OP's part. I had assumed U-factor. I didn't even look at the values in the post to make the connection. I guess that's because I'm not a window guy. When it comes to light rays (of any length) being a concern, I lean towards films. They're inexpensive and usually do a good job. They even have exterior applied, removable versions now to reduce graffiti maintenance time. The manufacturer claims that a worker can tear off a spray painted sheet and replace it faster than a worker can clean the paint from a glass window - and there's no volatile chemicals involved.

You are right about the inside-out view of storms, but like anything else in the room, unless you sit in a rocking chair and stare out of it all day long, are you going to even notice it after the first month? Same goes for the view from outside. The house will look "different" when you come home at night, but after 6 mos. the brain will be conditioned to not even notice it. It's like buying a different car and not being able to find it in the mall parking lot because you're still looking for your old car. After a month, your old car is not even in your thought processes anymore.

Believe it or not, black PVC holds up better in the sun that white. The reason is because they use carbon black to make the black color. Carbon is the best form of UV inhibitor as compared to the chemical inhibitors used to make all other colors and it's cheaper, too. Gee, I actually learned something after 25 years in the plastic and rubber business that I could pass on!!

I know that this exchange has only been for our own benefits and whoever else cared to follow along. Certainly not a good read, but we both got some muscle-flexing out of the way.

I didn't damn the industry - I only said that until pressure equalization technology was perfected there would always be seal failures. I learned that from my E-Glass newsletter a few years ago and I still read it, religiously.

I'll be happy to send you a follow-up on my own storm window project. The only way I'm getting any testing done is if the electric company is still doing their free energy audit testing. How much would a "blower test" cost?

My only question regarding your 1% figure is, are you talking about a local operation or one that's nationwide? I mean, I already admitted openly that 1% was a terrific accounting and that you do a good job. You must to be in a limited temperate climate area where temps rarely fall below teens in the winter or over 95 in the summer and not on an extended basis. Weeks of hot weather like Texas or extreme cold like Mt. Washington are wicked on seals. The extremes that occur in the desert SW would seem to be the worst.

My remark was aimed at your rhetorical question regarding what to do with the other 99% of your IGUs that weren't going to fail. I believe you retorted "what should I do with them, not hang them?" or something to that affect. It seems that you are now telling me that your 1% figure is based upon pieces and not window openings?

To be honest about the warranties, I only scanned about 3 of them and they weren't Anderson......and you pointed out to me that one of them was 2 years old. All of the pro-rated ones read pretty much the same, After 12-20 years the warranty was pretty much worthless and then the other shoe dropped saying "this warranty and it's terms are up to the discretion of the manufacturer." Haven't you seen those? I figured you window guys would have your finger on the pulse of the industry players' warranties.

I don't think that the "living the lie" was in this post, (and maybe it was to someone else), but I believe it had to do with salesmen who knowing sold inferior IGUs without any remorse or feelings of guilt and lied about energy paybacks just to make a sale and collect their commission check and to heck with the customer who just got hosed. I doubt that you are one of those or you wouldn't have a 1% failure rate (no matter how it's calculated) or still be in business. So, since it wasn't directed to you and if the shoe doesn't fit, I would suggest that you give it to someone who it does - you probably know who they are or at least knew of them before they got fired and are now selling time shares or working flea markets.

I took the DOE wording as a correct statement. I didn't read it to mean what you took away from it. I know that there is heat loss through walls, floors, ducting and ceilings, as well. I also know that heating and cooling is only part of my electric bill.

Every ad on the Internet and TV (private sector) is guilty of providing misleading info so I suppose you can cut the DOE some slack, eh? "ABC car company voted best in new customer satisfaction!" Did anyone go back and talk to these so-called "customers" a year later to see if they felt the same way after all of the rattles and squeaks became noticeable? You aren't saying that the window industry is immune to such leanings, are you? And most "studies" ARE bunk, so that point is moote. I'm sure that you're aware that the folks doing the studies are normally beholden to the endowment provider - that is, if they ever want any future business from the client.

Three de-fog business gone? Does the process really work? It's only a band-aid, anyways, right? Or is the fix permanent?

Btw, how many window companies are gone away in the past 3 years that you know of?

S.S. may be on a path to failure, but I don't see it happening in our lifetime. The elite in this country secretly WANT S.S. so that the government won't look to them for more revenue. What would happen if all of the common man's FICA revenue stopped coming into the treasury? Sucking money out of the middle class working American won't be as easy the next time around as it was the first. Just some food for thought.

Happy New Year

Trapped heat and condensation are the issues of concern to my knowledge.

I take that back. You might be correct. He/She may have meant U-Factor. I guess we will have to see but that totally slipped my mind.

Films do work pretty well and there are some nice ones out there. I especially like the bullet/break in ones that 3M makes.

I agree but you will be surprised at the instant response and feedback of customers. While you and I know that it will fade into obscurity, be assured that you will get a call about it on days 1-14.

I was not aware of that. I guess we might be talking about two different variants of degradation too. One as it pertains to UV degradation and the other as it pertains to heat cycling and expansion/contraction concerns. Obviously if the plastic is degraded, it will be much more likely to crack but I was not aware of the carbon aspect either. Thanks for that.

I am always up for a spirited debate.

Local and personal data. We are a moderate climate by exposure but we do get pretty good temperature extremes with 100's in the summer and teens in winter.

I would agree that desert climates are especially trying on windows but then again, those climates are dealing with a heat loss concern so double and triple pane, gas filled IGUs are less applicable and necessary. I well built IGU with a heavy Low-e (low SHGC range) is just as effective down there.

There are varied and less significant warranties out there. The most important thing is dealing with a quality company that makes a well engineered product.

At the end of the day, the old analogy of which is a better warranty probably applies here...a Mercedes with a 2 year/20K mileage warranty vs. getting a Daewoo (although the Koreans make a nice car now) with a 10 year/100K mileage warranty?

Post # 16 from the top has the "living the lie" comment in it.

There are plenty of shysters in any industry and I did not think you were inferring anyone in this thread or fellow posters. I was just pointing out that some of the language and labels being thrown, in general, were a bit aggressive. I have met some cheesy salespeople in my day but never one that actively defrauded a customer.

I personally don't care for the government's approach to energy policy. I realize that there intentions are well founded, I would prefer to see the private market at work and dictate technology. More often than not, there is a potential to get it wrong when you are trying to lump the entire country into one approach. I stand by the statement that 40% heating/cooling loss through windows is poor wording and unintentionally misleading.

De-fogging can work if done properly and can keep the panes fog free for the duration. When it is done correctly, it is a viable alternative.

I wouldn't be so sure. We are running at record deficits and fast approaching Greece's debt to GDP ratio. While our economy is far stronger and adaptive, these type of debt levels are unsustainable. If the interest rate ever re-sets...we are done. The government needs to worry about balancing their checkbook like the rest of the citizenry and collecting some measure of Income tax from every American would go a long way to solving the debt crisis. The upper 10% already pay over 70% of the total last I checked. Might be time to collect some taxes from the other 90%. Until that time, people will not place any value on anything government related.

Thanks for the heat and condensation input.

The 3M security film is definitely tough stuff. I'm not sure if it is domestic or offshore, though. I try to buy American whenever possible.

Although they may notice a difference in 14 days and call you, 14 days after that they should be getting their electric bill. That's when I would call THEM. LOL

The only downside of always buying from the established company is that there is never any new competition allowed to enter the market (if EVERYONE followed that logic). How long must the new player be in the business before he becomes a "reputable" company if he has no sales? He can't stay in business without sales for very long if the "old guard" references every prospect with, "you don't want to deal with the new guy when you can buy from someone with an established track record." Or "their product is brand new with no history while our products and service have been around for years." Somebody's got to give the new guy a chance or he's toast. Then there's sudden price breaks for big projects, kickbacks and back door deals to take away any chance of the new guy getting a shot. That's how monopolies are born and then the FTC has to step in to level the playing field.

Found post #16. (would be nice if they numbered 'em) "Live the lie" was the salesman that sold my sister the POS windows she has now. Next time I go visit her, you can bet I'll be checking for more seal failures! LOL I'm also gonna' check the brand and let you know, for what it's worth.

Btw, are there any visual indicators to tell you the likely cause of the seal failure? i.e. where the failure is located? Are the majority of failures that you have seen from manufacturer defect or twisted frames from wall openings?

Every industry shyster brings that industry one step closer to more regulations. They need to get booted asap to show the government "watchers" that the industry is willing and capable of self-policing.

When it comes to energy, if the private sector has no desire to move the necessary technology forward, the government has little choice but to nudge them. You and I both know that alternative energy will only become widespread when Big Oil or Big Energy can be in control of the profits. There will be no new players in the game. A new company name and logo? Sure. But the names calling the shots will be the good ol' boys of the current industry. After the government spends billions in aiding the research and technology, it will be turned over to the private sector. That's how the Alaska Pipeline deal went and that's how they (Big Oil) WANTED the Keystone Pipeline to go. But why should we build the oil industry ANOTHER pipeline so that Big Oil can export MORE gas & diesel overseas while gas prices are above $2.50 a gallon? So much for "supply & demand." What a crock..........

Btw, the Alaska Pipeline only operates at 30% capacity, about 17.5 million BARRELS a month and all of that oil is refined on the west coast. Yet my daughter says it's been a long time since gas was below $4.00 a gallon in L.a. I've added a link for your entertainment.

Yes, we're off topic AGAIN! Time to catch a few hours sleep.

Here is a link that might be useful: Veterans Today

I didn't say buy from and established company. I recommended a well engineered product and customers that do their research can sort through these choices much better.

The private sector will catch up when energy prices go up. Right now there is not motivation to do so with our energy being as cheap as it is right now.

Trust me, the motivations are in place now and the government is not the source of product advancement and government money just furthers release of sharks into the waters.

The path to energy independence in this country is multiple and varied. It is not going to get done with renewables though. They are part of the equation but only a fraction.

Oil, Gas, and nuclear will get it done.

wow,

Now we are off of the "topic chart."

It sounds to me like you may be drinking too much of the status quo kool-aid. Please tell me that you haven't bought into the notion that tax breaks create jobs. I don't know about you, but I have NEVER hired an employee because I got a tax break - I hired him because I had more business from customers with money in their pockets to spend. And don't swallow the propaganda that small business built America - home-based cottage industry got this country going and now that it has, big business has made it almost impossible to operate under the original rules of entrepreneur-ism without allowing them to contrl it.

Do yourself a favor and slow down and realize that it's not about simply the short term profits - it's about control of the market share. Big Business have 99% now in this country now and they want to keep it that way. Such is the way of the power hungry. Their desire to control world-wide is why we get involved in military conflicts in oil rich foreign lands. They want to keep oil as the control mechanism. What would happen if a cheaper energy source was developed that they couldn't control? What if it was free to everyone? Think about what they stand to lose. Their addiction to control is the determining factor of it all.

The world is not run by hard working honest folks and business owners like you and I, but rather a ruthless sort who view the world as a giant place to exert more of their control because they know that the money is only secondary and guaranteed to follow. It's all about control and power - why else would one NOT be satisfied earning BILLIONS of dollars a year and not retire?

You're a smart guy - probably a lot smarter than I. Don't let others do your thinking for you and then accept what they tell you because it makes good "business sense". I used to be that way - it's not about that. Find out their real motives and agendas - not just what they feed us through the media. That is all under control, too. I learned years ago that the information from SW radio told a different story about the world. The Murdocks of the world enjoy control, too, but they got sloppy and exposed and now have to regain credibility. We only know a fraction of what really goes on in the political global world but it very similar to what goes on in the corporate controlled political world of what we see in this country except on a grander and even more exploitative scale.

If there are 2 sides to every story, why do we only hear one. The drive is to find and develop more controllable (captive) markets overseas because there is more money in a customer base of 10 billions in the eastern hemisphere than there is in the hundreds of millions here in the west.

They will slowly strip away our more and more of our personal liberties under the guise of national security. They keep Americans bickering among themselves about who is paying for what and who is getting what for free, who's Snookie dating, and who's gay and just came out of the closet. The media doesn't give us news anymore, they give us "diversionary entertainment". When is the last time you saw CNN, FOX or ABC broadcast a PSA about their FCC license requirement like your local TV station has to do?

"News" today is merely a diversionary tactic to keep us from sticking our noses into the backrooms of Washington where the next takeover is being devised.

Our founding Fathers didn't want it to happen but just as a safeguard, they inserted the 2nd amendment. I fear that we will lose our compass and not be aware enough to use it before it is taken away from us. That's just me.

Who said, "Those who trade liberty for security have neither."?

Never said any of that. As a matter of fact, I think we need a more level and fair tax system in this country.

The fact is that this country cannot and will not tax itself to a balanced budget.

I never said big business....private sector. Most of the innovation in this economy comes from the small-medium sized start ups as they are able to make those type of shifts and adaptations on the quick.

Benjamin Franklin. The exact quote is: "Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither"

We should, for the sake of consumers, stay on topic.

Holy cow!... Well, let me see if I can bring this thing back around and summarize your positions stormstopper, for the sake of others that may view this thread (assuming that it is not deleted of course):

-You are "not a window guy" (your words). By your other comments and apparent unfamiliarity with procedures such as the "blower test" as you called it, would it be safe to surmise that you are not a home performance or energy efficiency expert either?... Please feel free to add any additional information about your experience to establish some backing for the credibility of your positions. So far that list is limited to "25 years in plastics" which may or may not have any relevance in regards to the window conversation - and certainly none as it applies to glass-, and a rather ambiguous comment that you "deal with windows".

-You admit that you have a vendetta against the industry due to your sister having fallen prey to a "hard-sell" window salesman, and the subsequent issues that she had with her windows. You admit that you "take aim at the industry", then later say "I didn't damn the industry".

-You believe that insulated glass is bad technology (despite no credible, empirical data), and recommend a single-pane replacement window with storm combo. This despite the fact that a quality replacement window with insulated glass will be PROVEN to offer : superior performance, a lower cost, better looks (I guess that could be subjective). They are also far more readily available, and likely to offer superior warranty coverage.

-You believe that insulated glass failure is THE reason not to purchase replacement windows, despite the fact that:

1. Other parts break and fail on windows (some far more commonly than IGU failure), regardless of whether or not they have IGU's, including hardware, wood rot, warpage, etc. In fact, the wood frame of new windows (remember, you claim that vinyl is a poor material choice) is only warrantied for 10 years, and it is common to see windows rotted out within 8-15 years. That would seem to be more cause for alarm, would it not?
2. Most premium vinyl window manufacturers offer a lifetime, non-prorated warranty against seal failure, and even the main wood manufacturers offer 20 years of coverage.

-You offer no exception as it pertains to quality, whether it be windows themselves, their material of construction, or the IGU.

-You recommend installing storm windows over replacement windows with no qualifier about the specifics of the window such as low-e coatings etc, despite the fact that most if not all window warranties will be VOID upon installing a storm window, and there will be certain damage if not accelerated wear to the window itself, specifically when low-e coatings are involved.

-You criticized WoW for injecting information that was unsolicited or immaterial to the conversation, yet the first posts that you made here were exactly that. You also accused the regular posters here of offering nothing more than manufacturer-fed sales propaganda, only to later admit that you did not actually review their positions before you came out of the gates firing misguided flaming arrows at them.

- Your statements on politics range from liberal to libertarian. You say "government corruption is a certainty", and that it is run by "big business" and societal elites that keep us in the dark in order to "exert more control", yet you are also in favor of bigger government in the form of more regulations and entitlement programs. Those statements would seem to contradict each other.

Please correct me if any of that is inaccurate, but I think that I've summed it up pretty well.

Do you mean the ones that will never read this? Sure.

Different quote but just as pertinent. Mine was from Adams.

+1 on pretty dam well everything you just stated HomeSealed, sums it up quite nicely!

H.S.

If you wish to pick and choose comments here and there and use them out of context, I'm sure that I could be portrayed in any light.

No, not a window guy. The only "dealing" I do with windows are those on mine and my neighbors and family's houses that I choose to help.

Yes, my sister did get sold on a bad product. I'm glad that the FTC is trying to stop the practice, but it is a black eye on the entire industry and should have been stopped by the industry before it became a problem. Please tell me why they didn't? If they want less government involvement they need to nip unfair practices in the bud.

Haven't been much of a performance energy "anything' since I quit drinking coffee and Diet Coke.

Polymers and elastomers are my background, yes. Have dabbled in some construction trade fields during my life, too, but not to a high level (obviously).

Since when are "taking aim" and "damning" synonymous? Damning was NEVER printed with my fingers so please cease, like wow was kind enough to do , before you lose credibility.

Insulated glass technology is not "bad", merely "unperfected"...again, I say(this is at least the 3rd time).

I have never said not to buy replacement windows...there you go again putting print to my fingers that doesn't exist. Or you have me confused with someone else.

Anderson Windows started with wood in 1903 and it is still the basis for many models. Just out of curiosity, are the rotted windows and broken parts that you see in the field inherent of the window or a reflection of it's lack of proper maintenance or possible lack water diversion techniques during the installation? I also believe that the lowered warranties surrounding wood windows is explained well by Xoldtimecarpenter's thread regarding new growth/old growth. I defer you to wow on that topic.

Regarding PVC windows, if you produce something at a low enough cost and do not pass the cost reduction onto the marketplace, it is easier to be able to afford to replace defective parts at a later date without loss. Great for the company bottom line - but can result in additional property damage and inconvenience for the end user (customer) in the meantime. Pvc profile is much less expensive to produce than trees and a bit quicker, too.

UV is the absolute enemy of plastic and will always win. Shading it will prolong it's life but won't save it. Grocery bags that are going to plug our landfills for hundreds of years turn to powder in 6 months of natural sunlight exposure.

Warranties are nothing more than insurance policies. It is a numbers game that is always stacked in the insurer's favor. That's what accountants and loss experts get paid to derive. It's just part of what makes gathered data so important to manufacturers. I have worked for a few of them.

I have also told wow that storm windows are not the answer to every situation/application and agree the same can be said of IGUs. As I said earlier, if you want to pick and choose my posts, you can spin me to be whatever you wish.

I also clarified and admitted to not reading forum history before adding my first post and asked if anyone else studied other thread history before they offered their very first post and I have yet to get a response. I also stated that I only offered up the storm window as an option because no on else had. The OP asked for help and I offered my opinion and stated why. Wow can also verify that.

Maybe when pressure equalizing IGU technology is perfected, storm windows will no longer void warranties due to storm window use. Heck, maybe storm window technology with fix the problem first? Who knows?

My first posts were each in direct response to the OPs. I believe they were done quite close to each other and I didn't read other responses before moving on to other forums in GW. This is the first forum that I have ever joined that had manufacturers reps posting in it.....but I only belong to three others - woodworking, vintage motorcycle repair and home built CNC routers.

Just because I would like to live in a perfect world doesn't mean that I believe that it is possible. I don't need the government in my bedroom but I don't think my neighbor should be beating his wife and kids in his, either. So how does that get fixed? Surely not by name calling or sending your money to an offshore bank account. It appears that there is no middle of the road with you, H.S. I'm either a Libertarian or a Liberal and can't possible be anything else for in your mind, just because YOU think it, it MUST be fact and therefore true.

The same could be said regarding the emergence of Energy Star and other government testing/evaluating programs as I said of the alternative energy technology. The government will spent billions on the research while the status quo sits back and waits for the resulting technology to be handed to them. Only then will they perfect it way more efficiently and effectively than the government

More entitlement programs? I NEVER typed such a thing!! There you go again, H.S. Making words up to fit your preconceived idea of who/what you think that I am based on your own flawed analysis. Or maybe you just want others staring at me so that they don't look in your direction. Either way, I'll bet you're a riot after a couple of drinks.

What could be more myopic than to believe that corruption doesn't exist in our government. What planet are you living on, anyway? Our legislators are at the beck and call of lobbyists. I suppose in your eyes Jack Abramoff is just an entrepreneur who likes to make thinks up or is delusional. Wake up and smell the coffee and put down the Kool-aid, H.S.! GEEEZE

Please, let's just put this whole discussion to bed. You can't stop yourself from putting words in my mouth and I end up spending more time clarifying what I posted than staying on topic.

Storm:
1. I never expressed any of my own feelings about government. Only pointed out that yours seem to strongly contradict one another. My political views are completely irrelevant to this discussion.

2. Please review your post (about 9 posts up). You did indeed say "I didn't damn the industry", after previously stating that you are "taking aim at the industry". I quoted you verbatim both times. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but please only do so if I am indeed wrong ;)

3.My entitlement reference was regarding the views that you professed on social security. Again, I was not interjecting my own opinion at all.

4.On wood windows: the point of new vs old growth is certainly valid. That is why I cited NEW/newer wood windows. Improper installation can certainly be an issue, however in the vast majority of cases it is not the cause of wood rot in residential windows. Improper maintenance along with poor design and the inherent properties of an organic material such as wood (particularly the new stuff that is most commonly used in cheaper wood windows like radiata pine) are far more commonly the culprit.

5. UV (as in ultra violet, not u-value) certainly IS the enemy of plastic, just as it is the enemy of EVERY OTHER MATERIAL.

With all of this double-talk and taking of contradictory positions, one would wonder if you yourself are a politician, lol...
Your other comments have already been hashed out and put to rest. Certainly it is time to put this discussion to bed as well.
Cheers

This post was edited by HomeSealed on Wed, Jan 9, 13 at 14:30

H.S.

Please supply a copy of my quote where I "damned" the industry. I have yet to stoop to cussing in any of my posts and don't plan to. I freely admitted (this will be the 2nd time) to saying that I "took aim at" the industry as one would "...set their sights on...".

I took your words as trying to embellish what I said. If I was wrong, I apologize.

Once again, I think I've already explained that I NEVER mentioned "more entitlements" as you stated. Just as I never "damned" the industry. Please reread post and show where this appeared on my post.

wow pointed out where I, indeed, used the phrase "living the lie" and I hope that my explanation was sufficient. I will take the time to defend my own words but find myself wasting time defending those that others invent.

Clearing up misunderstandings is a great to avoid future hasty remarks. I think wow and I have done much of that.

I've already identified the post where I quoted you verbatim, 13th line of that post. I've explained my other statements as well and answered your questions. No further explanation is necessary. As we've already agreed, this conversation has run its course.
If you would truly like to get back on topic (I'd argue that you have yet to be "on topic"), you could get off your soap box and address the OP's ACTUAL questions ;)

The best way for me to help the OP is to get you, or anyone else who is qualified, to address my question regarding your assessment of rotted wooden windows in the field.

I asked the question because I wanted to know the answer as well.

Then maybe time2bbq will have some pertinent field information from a window professional as to the viability of using wood replacement windows. I does that sound reasonable to you?

Please see point #4 in my post above (3 posts up). Do you have any specific followup questions to that? I'd be happy to answer them. There are a few other guys including millworkman that are very well-versed in wood window products as well. :)
If you are looking for a more in-depth discussion on the pros and cons of various material choices (ie: wood vs vinyl and so on), that should not be hard to find as it is a very common topic around here.

This post was edited by HomeSealed on Wed, Jan 9, 13 at 16:45

Thank you, H.S.

In your post you said:

"4.On wood windows: the point of new vs old growth is certainly valid. That is why I cited NEW/newer wood windows. Improper installation can certainly be an issue, however in the vast majority of cases it is not the cause of wood rot in residential windows. Improper maintenance along with poor design and the inherent properties of an organic material such as wood (particularly the new stuff that is most commonly used in cheaper wood windows like radiata pine) are far more commonly the culprit."

Can you rate the order of wood rot from 1 to 3 to the causes as you have witnessed in the field with 1 being the most prevalent?

Improper maintenance
Poor window design
Inherent properties of the wood, itself

There are quite a few wood window mfrs. listed on the internet. Based on any professional's field experience, which ones have inferior designs I'm not asking for names - just design identifiers of construction methods that are "hot" words to look for in the manufacturer's description?

Also, if radiata pine is an inferior wood, is there a different name that a window manufacturer could use to identify the same radiata pine without calling it radiata pine?

One other thing.....do you ever advocate the use of rain drips above window replacements where massive wood rot has occurred in the previously installed windows? Or is there another installation technique that the installer can perform to reduce the chances of rot?

I will chime in here.

Most of what I see is as follows:

Poor design (and materials selection, i.e. cheap stock)
Inherent properties
Poor maintenance

We see windows that have great paint on them and are rotting from the back side.

The inherent properties of wood are going to be universal, as a synthetic material that does not rot will generally not fall apart due to improper maintenance, etc. That is not a total indictment of wood products in general, as they do have redeeming qualities, however it is what it is.
Between improper maintenance and poor design/quality, overall I'd say it is 50/50. Some rot from the inside-out when the exterior cladding fails causing moisture infiltration, others rot to the interior when people leave their blinds closed for 10 years only to open them one day and find that condensation has rotted their sash. A well designed, quality product will be more likely to see rot from poor maintenance than anything else.
In terms of common "design flaws", roll formed exterior cladding CAN be done properly, but often is not, and is a frequent culprit behind rot.
Most manufacturers just call their pine windows "pine". Ponderosa is a superior option which takes longer to grow, and is used on higher end products like Marvin. It is incumbent upon the consumer to research that, as the manufacturers that use inferior materials certainly do not want to highlight that. Other wood species are available as well but pine is most common.
Every window should be properly flashed whether it is original or replacement. More often than not, that includes metal head flashing (drip cap). Most installations, especially when dealing with a nailing fin have several layers of protection from back-caulking the nailing flange, flashing tape, metal flashing, wrb properly lapped, to the siding.
If these questions are genuine and not just some "window skills knowledge test", you might consider staring a new thread of your own.

Thanks wow and H.S.,

Interior condensation aside, on 2 story homes, do any of you find higher, lower or equal occurrences of rot on the ground floor windows as 2nd floor?

H.S. If I do a search for "wood replacement window installations" will I be able to find the procedure as you have described it that will show nailing fins, wrb and other terms that I am not familiar with? It would help if there was somewhere that has a diagram so I can better comprehend.

If I understand you correctly, it sounds like maybe I should steer clear of cladded wood designs unless they are from a reputable manufacturer. Is plain wood with a high quality paint a better choice? Or am I inviting a maintenance nightmare with repainting and re-caulking every 5-10 years? Or should I be scheduling the p/m sooner than that?

I know that standard aluminum windows have a reputation for transferring heat, but I used to work for a company that manufactured aluminum framed skylights. We marketed a thermally broken line. Are there good aluminum thermally broken windows on the market? Are there inferior designs to be wary of? Not looking for brand names, necessarily.

There are good thermally broken aluminum products, however they are only recommended in warmer climates. In my experience, the "thermal break" does not work as designed in colder climates.
On the wood products, there is nothing wrong with cladding in general, just the application/design of some methods. Extruded aluminum exteriors generally offer a better option, as do fiberglass exteriors. Wood exterior is fine, but as you mentioned the paint and maintenance required is typically undesirable to people that are spending thousands on new windows.
I don't necessarily see more rotted units on first or second floors, however the external conditions such as side of the home, landscaping, etc can certainly play a role.
You can very easily find proper window flashing procedures by google search. Diagrams, videos, etc.

Well, I'm back from the grill & am quite amused. :) BUUUUTTTT ... I have a few questions ...

WOW ... What is considered to be the "Upper End Brands" by Soft-lite?

Also, I have contacted OKNA for a quote and they were out last night. Also, after an unscheduled visit from another company that is a bit pushy and has the "used car salesman" approach, I think we are DONE!!!! Done asking for quotes that is. We are still waiting on a few quotes (we have asked for changes to the original quote in most cases) before we make our final decision. We are going with a double or triple pane & probably Argon filled. However, we do not want the 'metal' inside after all of the research we have found ... please correct me if I'm reading the wrong stuff on line though. I know there's a TON of 'wrong' information on line too. Also, we decided to go with the grids on the front only to stick with the look of the window over the garage as well as the 'curb appeal.'

Another question though ... How long is the typical 'wait' for windows to come in? How long SHOULD the typical install for 23 windows take (or 25 depending on the installer - Back Kitchen window is 3 side by side; casements on the outside & 'picture' on the inside) ... if it's being done RIGHT? Time isn't an issue with work as long as I have enough advanced notice, but I don't want this to DRAG ON or FLY BY ... both result in POOR installation which account for a HUGE portion of loss of energy efficiency etc. The window can be great, but if it's not installed correctly it only results in MORE damage and problems ... as well as energy loss.

As for the warranty, I have been reading a LOT of the fine print & details for the top 3 (I wasn't about to waste my time on EVERY window out there). I have also found out that VA's 'definition' of LIFETIME is 7 years (so I have 'been told' - I still need to do research on this) ... can any of the professional window installers here that work in VA confirm this? I think someone said "WOW" is based in VA, but I don't know where (haven't researched this either).

Stormtrooper ... just a note, our wood 'rot' is on the 2nd floor. But it's on the 'shaded' side (front) and by a tree. I don't know if this helps your research any. As for the window fogging, I only have one & I'm 'thinking' this is due to the location ... on the South side of the house, in the kitchen ... over the sink/dishwasher (frequent heat/moisture changes etc). I'm NOT a window professional by any means, just assuming here. I THINK the 2 picture windows have 'lost their gas' as well. The window that has the 'rot' doesn't fog at all surprisingly.

And finally ... if you don't mind ... what are some of the 'things to watch out for' that a newbie like me wouldn't know or realize or put together? During the sale, install, additional charges, warranty gimmicks, and repairs should I need to call on the warranty?

Thanks again everyone!

Upper end softlite units would be the Elements and Imperial LS. They are comparable to the okna 500 and 800.
It should not be unreasonable to expect a lead time of 4-6 weeks, and the install could be completed somewhere between 1-4 days depending upon the size and proficiency of the crew, as well as the install details. Full tearouts could go longer.
I can't comment on the VA definition of "lifetime", but I imagine that would really only apply to the labor warranty as the manufacturer warranty is what it is regardless of where the windows are shipped.
On what to look for, it can be hard to point to specific things in terms of installation other than that it looks good, is installed square, operates and locks smoothly, etc. The opening should be thoroughly insulated, preferably with low expansion, closed cell foam, and you should feel no draft in or around the unit when locked shut. As far as the sales process, don't deal with anyone that you don't feel comfortable with. You should be able to trust your contractor inasmuch as one can trust someone that you don't really know. If a guy is blowing smoke during the sales process, that is likely to continue after the sale. Lastly, look for a high level of professionalism throughout the process, including printed, detailed estimates and contract. The sales guy can promise you the world, but if it is not in the contract, you may not get it.

time2bbq,

I'm not a window guy, but it sure sounds like you have done some homework during our bantering session. If you keep searching, you never know what pertinent information you might stumble upon to help yourself.

I would probably arrive at the same conclusions as you regarding the cause of the failed window by the dryer. I like your deductive thinking, your common sense and realistic approach to this whole project. I think you'll do just fine.

I am impressed with wow's thoroughness and record keeping so if he's in your area, you should at least give him a shot. But take that for what it's worth - I've only known the guy for 2 days on here! LOL

According to my daughter, I am such a bad judge of people that she insists that I have a dog because dogs are a better at it than I am! LOL

I wish you the best of luck on all phases of your project.

wow,

Is it possible that the same tree which caused the rotted wood provided a shading effect that saved the IGU? How poetic/ironic is that?

I think you are on the right track.

The windows, inside the Soft-Lite line, that HomeSealed mentioned are the ones that I would personally use as where the Okna ones that he mentioned.

My understanding is that VA "definition" of lifetime is 7 years. That being said, I have replaced sashes for people that were not even our client but window consumers, that were 20 years old and the companies honored the warranty.

Rule of thumb there being, deal with a solid company and they will hopefully protect you.

We are running about 8 weeks right now from start to finish. The install would be about 1-2 days depending on crew size.

Shading from a tree will definitely speed rot because of the openings inability to get fresh air, sunlight, and ultimately dry out completely.

The tree also puts out a good bit of humidity that can supply the dreaded moisture. Same with the dryer.

Things to watch out for would mostly be getting a poor product in my opinion and cheesy sales tactics. Sounds like you are familiar with the latter already with the door to door stuff. You are way ahead of the curve as it pertains to research so you are doing much better than most to start.

Don't listed to anyone that quotes COG R-values or demos a big heat lamp display. Those are usually the folks that prefer the circus/theatrical displays.

Stormstopper,

Dogs are better than people in most cases. Nothing to be ashamed of there. My pups are both better creatures and judges of character. Go figure.

+1 on everyone's above postings. You bbq you seem to have a good handle on what your doing and sound like your following the sound advice given above. SS, quality wood window discussion from my end will have to wait until I have more time and a different thread but suffice it to say 95% of the wood window companies make crap, Radiata pine by any name is a horrible wood for windows and can and is often disquised as other "types" but I cannot think of them at the moment and I am not certain of any companies that even use Radiata as most use Ponderosa Pine. And while I do not have the scientific data behind me on IGU's that some of my window breathern have I will go to the grave promoting IGU's over single strength and storms all things being equal, but that is for another day again. BBQ good luck, check references and detail, detail and detail what you expect in your installation and you will be fine. The people who get taken for a ride are the people who trust the used car salesmen and do not research what they are buying .

As for Soft-Lite models ... what about the Bainbridge with Ultimate Glass? It's a triple pane with the "Super Spacer" ... not the metal "Intercept Spacer" that is in the other 2 versions of the Bainbridge (Low-E Plus and Ultra Glass). The "Super Spacer" is the same spacer that is used in the Essence models.

Another question about the doors. Granted, this is coming from the one 'salesman' I REALLY didn't like ... especially his quote ... but, he quoted us a Provia door at $14K. It is a double door entry, but he couldn't be serious right!??? I have quotes for $3K-5K for both doors & then this guy comes in with a quote for $14K!! He claims it's b/c it's a Provia door. I have done some research on this & I THINK I want a Provia door, but I'm not about to blow $14K on just the front door! But, I thought I would ask 'the pro's' for some advice since I am new at this and this is NOT my 'specialty' in life. :)

Thanks again!

Bainbridge is not on the same level as the other two mentioned, but a very solid choice nonetheless, especially with that glass/spacer package.
On doors, provia makes an excellent product, but your assessment of the price sounds about right. Certainly there are options, installation circumstances, etc that can drive the price up, but that does indeed sound extreme. Is it a double door with sidelites? Even then, $14k sounds extremely high... The best way to compare is to get additional quotes. The fact that the other prices are what they are speaks for itself.

+1

The Bainbridge is a solid window but in the position of what Soft-Lite considers their upper end unit offerings.

I guess you could make a $14,000 door but that would have to be one large, complex, and decked out piece.

Get some more quotes and I am sure you will have more questions as well as answer some in the process.

Here's another question ... how do I figure out what the 'ratings' are for my current windows? Several 'salesmen' have said I currently have Andersen 200's (Double hung, casement, and picture). But they are not the tilt/clean, they are original to the house (built in 1996), all wood (int & ext), double pane with a metal spacer that reads "CARADCO #" where the # is either 12, 14, or 916 OR just a grey caulking between the panes (that's what it looks like anyhow). I'm sure the ratings are nothing like windows we are considering, but I wanted to get some idea/ref to try & compare things with the one's we are considering.

WOW ... question for you since you are here in VA too ... In your opinion, what ranges should I be looking at for U-Factor & SHGC. I understand that we are in 2 different areas of VA, but is it really THAT different for someone like me near the coast (Portsmouth area)?

Thanks again!

Are you sure you have Andersen windows to begin with? I was not aware of any situations where Caradco (now Jeld-Wen) was making anything for Andersen.

It is likely that you just have the Caradco window.

In terms of what you have in aggregate efficiency, it is probably about a R-Value of 1 - 1.25.

If your existing windows where properly sealed, relatively airtight, and not rotting, there would be zero rationale from the standpoint of energy savings to replace them with new insulated unit.

Just improving the R-value/U-Factor in that window from and R-1/1.5 to an R-4/5 would take decades to payback and any benefits for solar control could more cheaply be supplied via applied films.

In terms of what we want for this region, you want the lowest U-Factor you can get in any application. Whether you are a triple pane candidate depends largely on whether or not you are okay with the slightly darker window.

If you were wanting to take advantage of the passive solar, you could go with a standard 2-coat low-e on the South facing windows and leave the triple pane to the other elevations.

In a coastal application, the larger impact on efficiency (if you are comparing two similarly outfitted windows with Low-e) is going to be on air-tightness.

That applies to how the window was both installed and how tight the window is.

When we talk to clients about windows, we usually stick to the 4 aspects of:
- Thermal resistance (U-factor)
- Air Tightness (Air infiltration)
- Visible light (VT numbers and profile thickness)
- Warranty

Feel free to ping me with any other questions.

+1, I was thinking the same thing on the Caradco/Andersen reference. Is it possible that you have different products in different areas of the home?
I agree with WoW's logic on the replacement as well, although if they are indeed 1996 Caradcos, I suspect that they are not in the greatest shape.

LOL, 1996 Caradaco's brand new were never very good to start with!!!