We think SS needs to see that it was his actions that led to a disappointing holiday for all of us while we scrambled to catch up on his schoolwork and how we couldn't reward the lies, and we need to let our kids "let it out" to him if they want to tell him how frustrated it's made them to deal with the consequences me and dad had to hand down to him.

Why in the world are you punishing your other children for SS's behavior???!!! This is a terrible idea, and it's not going to work for ANY of you. In addition to the unfairness to your other children, it's going to backfire in ways you aren't considering.

What has your SS lied about?

May I ask why you are planning to punish the whole set of children and then use them to attack the kid? Your method of supposedly trying to teach this SS responsiblity and the need to study/prepare for school so he can be productive as an adult and not lie, to me is nothing more than setting up long term resentment between siblings and simply setting up a whole different set of problems/issues as a form of consequences.

Is your goal here really to teach the child not to lie? I guess I'm sensing more a wanting to divide and pollute the kids relationships due to different lifestyles and economic choices of the two families (you put way too much emphasis on money for this to only be about lying). By making the holidays miserable between siblings and the entire household and acknowledging SS won't want to again come back for additional visits, it appears you see this as a solution to intereaction between the kids. All it will do is remove the child from your (DH, you and siblings) lifes. Which I guess may actually be the original goal from your given statement of "we're trying to plan how to start protecting our other kids from him before he starts doing too much more that could really hurt them".

A talk with Dad about lying to school and to Dad, but I would not punish the household, I really don't think that's a solution to one child lying. And I'm sorry I have no real advice to give on the lying child because I see this as more than a lying stepson going on.

If it really is all about Character and Values --
then keep it all about Character and Values.

I faced a similar issue with my older son when he was a little younger than this. His father was actively encouraging him to lie to me and sneak around about certain things, and I found out about it. I was furious at Dad, furious at DS (but had to acknowledge the mixed/bad message he was getting), and really, really disappointed in him for making the choice he made.) I focused on the disappointment and waited until the anger abated before talking to DS, and planned my talk in advance to communicate the message.

You've only got 60-120 seconds before he tunes you out -- so PLAN your talk. Rehearse in your head even -- it's that important.

As you've pointed out, your opportunity to influence him is limited. He lives with his BioMom in a very different setting and lifestyle, and apparently, also with a very different set of values. Acknowledge this, because it's reality.

Also, your SS will need to make his own choices. No one can really police him -- as you and he also both know. Acknowledge that. Put the responsibility and accountability squarely back on him. Don't blame Mom (his defenses will go right up), and really, it's SS's choices you're focused on.

Acknowledge that sometimes lying and cheating (taking the easy way out) is *much* easier than being honest and admitting when you've made a bad decision or done something wrong. But stress that Character is forged through standing up to adversity, through withstanding pressure and resisting temptation.

Stress the importance of Character and Integrity. There are few things (maybe nothing) more important in a human being than that. THIS was the message I emphasized to my son. That Character was paramount, and that Character was the result of his choices -- the little ones he made everyday that only he knew about, even more than the bigger ones that were visible. That his Character would be his Destiny -- so he should think about it and choose very carefully what he wanted that to be. Again -- stress that his Character is the direct result of his choices.

Keep it Short, Serious, and Quiet. (No Yelling.) The more quiet (and low-pitched) your voice is, the more he will have to listen to hear you. Ask him if he understands when you're done, and if possible, have him explain it back to you. Then wish him well and ask him to take an hour in a quiet place to think about his choices and his direction. (Basically a time out, but don't use those words. Contemplation and meditation are good -- punishment is bad.)

For the rest of the vacation, I wouldn't pamper him, OR punish him all the time either. If he has substantial make-up work to do for school, I'd set aside time to do it and spin it as 'making reparations' -- If he gets it done, praise him for doing well and ask him "Doesn't it feel good to do the right thing?"

And LOOK for things he does right -- acts of kindness, of generosity, of honor. Point them out when you can find them (at 12, could be tough...), and encourage those tiny glimmers of good in him. Recognize the good, and you may well see more of them.

Me again. I'm sure this will be long. So, if anyone's up to reading and posting, I appreciate your input. Telling me if we're being stupid and there's a better way is appreciated.

I think I was just tired last night and not posting this really well. But, I couldn't sleep cause I'm so upset about SS "calling Dad's bluff" about lying having consequences.

We're not wanting to divide the kids against each other.

This latest lying problem was several emails between Dad and SS teachers this week about school projects and normal homework. DH was being specific when on videoconference with SS 3 times this week asking if things were done or what was left to do, etc. SS kept insisting all parts of work were done AND work was turned in on time. Teacher was emailing DH meanwhile saying "NO the project was NOT turned in til 5 days later, and SS was giving her and DH doubletalk. And, she said the other social studies stuff was incomplete because according to SS he didn't have crayons, etc supplies. DH sent him stuff for school (crayons, etc.) and regardless, if he "ran out" of something he should have to DH "I can't, don't have crayons, calculator, etc." NOT "yeah, Dad everything's totally complete and ready to turn in Friday."

As far a punishing the kids, here's why we're so upset. DH wants the consequence for lying to SS to be that we're not going to go out and do the extra stuff "besides xmas eve and day stuff" (ex. going to the movies once or twice this week, hanging out at the 4h center for the christmas lights, going out with friends and cousins to skate or chuck e. cheese type stuff, kids museum in town etc. (cause they're all off public school this week.) I agree because it's similar to what we give all the kids. But, this time it's going to be the worst timing we've had and it's the worst one I think for SS and the other kids cause it's basically all Christmas week and they're all looking forward to stuff.

In the past, we've really kept cancelling stuff to an absolute minimum and some of our kids were so little that with naps and stuff we just generally didn't go out a lot of "all day" fun. Most activities were a couple hours here or there.

Our youngest now is almost three and SS is the oldest 12, so more recently we've been able to do A LOT more stuff. EX. this summer we got a poolpass for the park and could go because enough of the kids could swim without help for me to handle alone when DH was at work.

The money thing comes into play because we don't always have enough to go do stuff both when SS is here and not here. The kids all love doing stuff together. For example when they all want to see a movie together, our kids will wait to see it until he's here. He usually sees the movies already with BM, but it's fun to wait and see how much a kick they all get out of doing something together.

So this past Thanksgiving when he was here, we all had a blast, because we had so much stuff they all wanted to do together and we'd saved the money for it. We did 2-3 special things together everyday. (ate at favorite restaurants, santa pictures, saw movies they all picked, went to circus, etc.).

Right before he left, we got a big packet in the mail from his teachers. It was filled with copies of a bunch of failed tests and examples of incomplete school/homework that was contradicting SS saying he'd only failed one test and had kept up with all his assignments, etc. His Dad sat him down and had a big talk about honesty and asking if he needed more school supplies (said no, but we sent extras home anyway). And, we both had him explain to us "how" he was studying for all subjects, so we could make suggestions about other ways to study math, spelling, etc, that he could try to see if they helped him learn more.

Then, he went home. For the last month, DH has made a point (more than before) of asking him about test scores, assgnments teacher tells us are coming up due, etc, to see where SS at with school.

Last night, we got the last email, and the teacher was flaming mad at SS for the lack of effort and the double-talk lying he's now been caught in --again. She says it's all absolutely unacceptable and he's the only kid doing this and it's happening almost constantly in class and for homework. She says he not rude, he just doesn't care or try.

So, DH says for now we're stuck because we can't force stuff like "from now on everyday after school do your homework right away, and show Dad all the papers each night and the tests you bring home, etc" because he doesn't live with us and we're in another state. Even his teachers are so fed up with him that they've said since they have so many students and SS won't try or be honest, they'll just "do what they can" to tell us assignments and test scores. (It means we been getting spotty info but not everyday updates and they're to busy to offer more.)

So, DH says that at least he's going to show SS there's a consequence for lying to him. And, that's what not doing extra stuff this week is supposed to be about. The reason it's going to affect ALL the kids is because, I'm not going to leave SS alone at home to take the other kids out. They're going to have to miss some stuff (playdates) and do other stuff later (movies after SS goes), etc. And, I told DH that I can't just have SS sit in his room "grounded" all week. DH said fine, but we should take away TV and stuff, and that will affect all of us. And, the teacher told us SS needs to learn some specific math stuff and catch up on reading, so DH said to just keep homeschooling all of them so it's quiet. Can't send the others outside for hours a day in this weather, and our immediate family is two hours away, so the visits are all day events, I can't just drop off the others and go home with SS. So, the kids are not getting this week off school. DH said maybe we'll take next week off for them.

Normally, our other kids don't feel slighted when one of them is busted and we lose TV or something for a few days. But, they're getting older now, and this is a special holiday week. And, in the past we've talked with them a lot to not "take it out on each other" if they get mad that family plans have changed because of a consequence. But, this time the older ones are more upset than before. DH and I said sorry, but we didn't know what else to do. And, our older kids said they'd feel more slighted if they saw we just did nothing about the lying than if they had to miss/delay stuff due to SS punishment, because they know they'd totally be busted if it were them.

DH and I are so stressed about the mess SS is in at school, that we just didn't put a lot of effort into "smoothing things over between the kids". We figured that they're getting older now, so maybe we should be letting them tell SS his actions aren't fair for how they affect everyone else. Our kids already do that to each other. (Ex. if the kids make a huge mess right before we're going out to the drive-in, I've been known to cancel it, because the movies started before they were done helping clean it up. We let our kids tell each other they're disappointed with the kid that skipped picking up and made a bigger mess instead.) But, this is really the first time something big has happened with SS consequence affecting plans like this. Maybe seeing how lying doesn't accomplish fixing school problems because it messes up more than his relationship with his Dad will get through to him? I don't know.

I was an only child so sometimes what's best with the sibling stuff is a mystery to me. But, DH and I are good about really working together for parenting. And, I do really feel lost about what are the long term consequences. Maybe this is a really bad idea, or maybe I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill.

But, we really do want the kids to all grow up loving each other and not even feeling like half-siblings. I wrote on here last night, because DH and I are questioning where the line is in watching SS lie repeatedly about the self-destructive thing he has going on with his schoolwork especially now that he's about to go on to middle school. We want to do the best thing to help him succeed, and to keep the family happy, and to be a good-fair example for the younger kids (no double standard stuff if we can help it). But, that's a fine line for us always, because he has BM and his dad at different households, and they have very different parenting styles. They're two totally different people.

And, I truly feel lost at this point. We've done a good job so far I think. They're ALL good kids, but we want to do our best to help them learn so they become good, happy adults. But, being the step-mom and an only child and knowing SS actions are now leading to more serious consequences for himself at school and that it's all rapidly erasing the trust he has from us, is why I posted to you all.

I've got to go pick SS up now. I hope this makes sense to some of you, so you can tell me what you think. I didn't sleep at all last night because I was so wound up trying to think of what else we could do and hoping that SS and DH can actually have a really good talk and accomplish something this week and not just argue or have a big talk like the one at Thanksgiving produce ZERO better results. I'll check back here later.

And, thanks you guys, even for the stuff you were critical of me for. I appreciate you being honest with me, cause I'd rather have another adult parent tell me there ideas or what they see, so I can see other perspectives than what's rattling around in my head. I'd rather do the best things for all the kids---even when I'm not clever enough to think fast and have all the answers about what will really help them all with family problems.

Merry Christmas.

PS. You guys are totally right that the money thing is an issue for us. But, it's because it really does affect for my SS his expectaions in life and his perspective on things. And, it's affected our ability for ten years to stop useless painful lawsuits involving him. It is what it is. We don't try and hold it again him. That's dumb. There's nothing wrong with them having more money than us, EXCEPT for the ways that we've seen it affect how he treats people. It's affected his friendships, etc. when other kids feel he's spoiled and he's needed help to learn how to get along with friends at different points in growing up when other kids have felt intimidated by not having "cool stuff" or declining to go places with him because their parents couldn't afford to participate. He's learned a lot from us not having a lot, because I can see how he's grown more sensitive to other kids and learned that he doesn't need to "go someplace" to impress or have friends. I think DH deseres a lot of credit for helping SS see that other kids will love hanging with him doing cheap free stuff, because SS is a blast to be with WITHOUT needing Disneylands, or the latest videogame machines and stuff. I truly think that's stuff he learned from us NOT his BM.

Has SS been tested for learning disabilites?

Because what he's doing is 100% consistent with what most kids with learning disabilities do. Of course, LDs aren't the only explanation for his behavior. But it's a possibility that should be investigated thoroughly, and ruled out if possible.

And has your husband talked with BioMom about SS's schoolwork and lying? She has to be concerned also, even if she's not setting a good example.

Lying about the homework etc could well be a self-esteem/shame issue,so you need to look at the underlying issues too. I am not saying give him a free pass, but don't just leave it at punishment.

Mom really ought to be involved too.

He can go to his room (where there is no TeeVee- or remove it?)and the rest can watch teevee without him! You can hire a sitter to watch him and the money you would have spent on his entertainment, will cover the sitter. I most emphatically do not think the other kids should have to have school because of him, when they were already told that they wouldn't. It also sets education up as sort of a punishment, and that is not a good impression to give them.

We have pretty drastically different ideas/ values than BM and I can already see the kids leaning this way or that.

Not to make anything worse, but people who lie compulsively can not be trusted- period.

I wish you the best of luck and you h ave my sympathy.

I think I understand better after your 2nd post, tough situation though still.

Hmmm. What would I do?

I like DH trying hard to show his son that life, fun and happiness is not all about money--kudus on that part. But I don't think I'd punish all for the misdeeds of the one.

I think I'd do the dad/son talk (liked sweeby's advice above on that) and I'd do one of the planned events tomorrow with the other kids and have one of the parent/step staying home with a studying SS. It might also be a good time for the talk and child will know he missed out on this outing because of the lying to his father.

Then I think I'd plan on Monday to have some practice sheets printed out for ss so you can see how he does and maybe see where any learning improvements might be required. I'd set up a temp study/work area in his room or another room but removed from the other kids. I'd let the others maybe a have a bit of a relaxed school day, some reading then maybe some quiet board games or homemade play dough with art lesson or something fun along those lines.

Monday evening I think I'd do no tv for the ss (he can study or read or quietly play in his room) while the other kids do whatever they normally do.

By Tuesday I'd then see if I thought Sunday's 'punishment' for lying had sunk in and how Monday 'school' went and decide if it were now time to let everybody go do another event this time including ss.

There might be something to a LD (reason for suggesting doing the practice sheets and see if you think he needs to be tested)

Anyway, just what I think I would try and see how it goes. Really one day punishment can be just as efficent as several days or the whole week. I think most important would be not to build resentment between siblings and not making the other kids miss much they were looking forawrd to. I don't think the other kids should pay the price when one of the children blows it, to me it sets up unnecessary hard feelings and resentment between the kids.

Hope things work out for you and that you all have a good Christmas

I have to agree with the other posters about not penalizing your kids for the misdeeds of their stepbrother.

Please note that I'm not criticizing your general strategy of having the others guide a wayward sibling back into line.
As long as one sib isn't consistently 'the black sheep' it could be both effective and constructive.
But really - How much 'peer pressure' will your younger children ones be able to apply to an older stepbrother they rarely see?
You're setting them up as 'Goody Two-Shoes' and it wouldn't be much of a stretch to expect big brother to extract some revenge.

My stepson lives in another state because me and DH and our kids moved out of his state about 1 1/2 ago.

This very well could be playing a large part in your SS's behavior. It's got to be extremely hard on a child to essentially lose a parent, perhaps harder for a boy to "lose" his dad. There seems to be a lot of communication, but it's not the same as living close together and seeing each other a lot.

Me again. Just got home with SS. I don't know if DH is going to talk to SS tonight. Just going to get the little ones ready for bed and wait and see.

Thanks for all the suggestions from everyone.

About the LD. Yes, he was already tested for a whole bunch including dyslexia stuff/ ADD stuff, etc.

I do think that moving had to have an impact, although the lying didn't start after the move it just got worse.

Okay gotta go. DH wants to open the teacher's emails.

My SD10 lies about EVERYTHING. Her mom LIES PATHOLOGICALLY. We have been dealing with this for 3.5 years. She has lived with us full time for the past three years and before that, her parents had 50/50, so I don't think it matters who the child spends most time with as much as it matters who they model their behavior from. Boys usually model their fathers and girls model their mothers but I would agree that a child can CHOOSE to model others if they want... it's all a part of them deciding who THEY are going to be as they get older. I certainly tried to find better female role models than my own mother, who is an alcoholic and does not know how to have a close relationship with her children. I work at NOT being like her. It does become a choice.

In my opinion, you should not treat him any differently than you would for this visit. If he doesn't get to spend much time with his father, it could be his way of trying to get attention. My SD10 lies constantly to get her mom to pay attention to her because she doesn't get to see her much and her mom is more involved in her boyfriends' kids lives than her own child. I would also not punish your other children... it's a vacation & should be enjoyed, even by your SS. He should be called out on his lie and his father needs to make it clear that he doesn't appreciate the lying and if he continues to lie, he just won't be believed about ANYTHING. We no longer give ANY attention to SD's lying... we give attention when she does the right thing. and it's a long road... my SD will say something and we don't 'react' so she begs us to believe her... and we have to remind her that it takes time to rebuild the trust and be able to believe her. With your SS living with his mom, you have less opportunity to discuss this with him but his dad needs to be consistent in telling him that it's unacceptable to lie in his house and as long as he lies at school or anywhere else, it will be hard to believe anything he says... not trusting a liar is the natural consequence of lying.