I think you are lucky you are just engaged. It's never going to change. If you marry him and he continues to be their bank you will both end up broke. His children will always come first in his life.

This post was edited by EmmaR on Mon, Nov 18, 13 at 15:40

I would not stop fiancee from seeing the girls when he wanted to...What would be a dealbreaker should be if he continues to attend events where the ex is present and they attend together..No reason he cant have a seperate Birthday dinner with them, or attend Graduation alone and sit apart from Ex...I would try to stop trying to get them to like you, they ve shown you they dont..Tell him its inappropriate for the family togetherness and that you feel disrespected..I would give a time frame for him to have him stop this behavior, and if its doesnt change, I wouldnt marry him...

I agree with both of you. It's like he's living two lives, one with me and my boys and his girls (2 daughters and ex-wife). The ex doesn't have a BF, lives alone and relies on my fiance to help with moving furniture, fixing things around the house etc.. Because he knows it upsets me, he's learned to not tell me. Most times it works then one of his brothers will slip or his kids will post pics of him over there. He'll also take care of her dog on week-ends that she goes to see the girls at school etc... I honestly think that if I demand that he stop doing these things the dishonesty will get worse and I'll end up disappointed. I trust him and don't think that there's anything going on, he just doesn't want to create conflict. If he says that I won't let him do something they will hate me even more.

I guess I need to decide if I want to put up with this for the rest of my life or not. I don't see this ever changing. I am just trying to figure out if I'm over reacting or not.

Going over and helping out and dog watching and moving furniture, that's as bad as socializing with the ex and girls together...He s WAY too enmeshed with the Ex...The girls are both adults..Sounds like they haven't dealt with the divorce..Yes, they may be madder at first if fiancé stops this behavior...But he has to, if he wants to commit to you...Again, tell him your expectations, if he cant change this situation, and you do marry him, you will end up resentful and miserable I think..Would be hard for any woman to tolerate this .Don't want to say all men in general, but a lot do hide behavior when they know they ll get static at home...Withholding is almost like lying....You want a guy that s open and honest.....

He's still married.

Legally or not, he's still married.

As I once learned the hard way, even if the divorce was final years ago, this makes you 'the other woman'.

& you can't overcome it.

I wish y ou the best.

And I guess I feel like "the other woman" at times. Some days it doesn't matter to me and other days I get so irate about the whole situation. I know that he'll always have strong ties to his ex as they were high school sweethearts and have lots of memories. She was the one that wanted the divorce and he reminds her of that when she gets mad at him for not meeting every need of hers or the girls. He does try hard to keep them all happy and if anyone has to be hurt it's always me. What I don't like are the secrets and I feel like I'm impeding his relationship with his girls just by being in his life and I know he probably resents me for it. It sucks because I really do love him.

I'm very independent and have a very busy career so I don't need a lot of attention. But it does suck to be the odd man out and am trying to decide if this is going to work for me long term since I've already invested 6 years into this.

'He does try hard to keep them all happy and if anyone has to be hurt it's always me.'

'I really do love him'

'I don't need a lot of attention.'

'I've already invested 6 years'

Listen to yourself:

You're volunteering to be treated badly & making excuses for the person who's treating you badly.

& you'll never get those 6 years back, they're gone gone gone, as will be every minute you flush down the toilet with this guy.

& love is a decision:
You will get free of this disfunctional mess when you decide that your love is not valued by the recipient & therefore he doesn't deserve it & therefore you're withdrawing your love from him in order to use it where it'll be appreciated.

And I guess I feel like "the other woman" at times. Some days it doesn't matter to me and other days I get so irate about the whole situation. I know that he'll always have strong ties to his ex as they were high school sweethearts and have lots of memories. She was the one that wanted the divorce and he reminds her of that when she gets mad at him for not meeting every need of hers or the girls. He does try hard to keep them all happy and if anyone has to be hurt it's always me. What I don't like are the secrets and I feel like I'm impeding his relationship with his girls just by being in his life and I know he probably resents me for it. It sucks because I really do love him.

I'm very independent and have a very busy career so I don't need a lot of attention. But it does suck to be the odd man out and am trying to decide if this is going to work for me long term since I've already invested 6 years into this.

I am for detachment, not just from the daughters but from your partner. You can't make them like you and you can't make him grow a spine.

Given the daughter's behaviors and lack of respect for their father, not to mention their greed, I can't see that their "liking" you would be of any benefit.

And while your fiance may indeed love you, it appears that love is definitely secondary to his principal commitment to his "first family." If you marry, you will have to be resigned to a place far back in line.

In sports parlance, you're the second string, handy to fill in but not good enough for the main squad. Is this what you want for yourself? And yes, you've "invested" six years. Well, it's a sunk investment. Those years are gone. And in six more years you will have invested 12 years and likely will still be experiencing the same frustrations.

I would also be very concerned about your partner's spending, particularly when it means he's not contributing his fair share to your [mutual] household. The spring break trip is especially egregious.

What will happen when your children are a bit older and more money is required for their education and care? Or your own savings and retirement? I see a string of endless expenditures for these young women. They'll get older but the demands will just change.

Wow you ladies can be petty. I think this statement by "dotz" tops them all:

"What would be a dealbreaker should be if he continues to attend events where the ex is present and they attend together"

So, by this rational...if one of his kids was going to graduate college, if the ex was going to be there, he should not attend. Really mature...he should miss a milestone in his child's life to appease your petty jealousies? Grow up ladies, a man can have a cordial, platonic relationship with an ex without it having any ramifications on the relationship.

I am not saying everything the OP's fiance is doing is the wisest choice...but man, the overwhelming opinion that if he helps her out in ANY way means she it putting the fiance on the "second team" is absurd. It has taking me a long time (7+ years) to get past hating my ex for cheating on me and leaving me...but I have grown as a person and am past it. We see each other almost daily (due to custody arrangements) and are friendly with each other, which is obviously the best thing for our kids. So many divorced people I know cannot even be in the same room...I am proud that both of us are mature enough to put the past behind us and move on with our lives, concentrating on raising our kids.

Have I done "household" things for her in the past? Of course...I am at her house almost daily getting/dropping off the kids...if a toilet is running or the sump pump isn't working or something, and her (non live-in) BF is not around, what am I gonna do, tell her to call a plumber and spend 150 bucks for something I could do in 5 minutes? Likewise she has helped me out many times too, things like lending me her SUV when I needed a larger car for camping trips with MY GF and all the kids. You see, even she can look past the fact that I have moved on too.

Get over it ladies, life only goes in one direction, make the best of it and let some of the bitterness go....

mkroopy, nobody has criticized your decisions or your lifestyle, yet you seem to be very (overly) sensitive to threads in which a female poster is advised that her male 'partner' isn't treating her right & never will treat her right.

OP has spent a lot of time & a lot of money on this guy, & in return she gets trivialized & used.

How much more time & money & how much more battering of her ego do you think she should endure before it's okay with you for her to rescue herself from this user?

Uh Kroopy, I have attended 4 Grads and am attending another in a few weeks..We don't SIT with the ex......If seeing an ex daily and running in and rescuing her makes you feel good, super...Its not BITTER, it s a boundary issue...Obviously, you don't have a high conflict, clingy EX..The only thing that works to keep her at bay is No/Low contact...Neither DH or I fix, help,or involve ourselves in our EXs lives....Works for us....

I can see both sides to this as I have a cordial relationship with my ex as well. He has helped me with things around the house when I was single, we've attended events together etc... But since I have been a relationship I no longer ask him to do these things and we attend events in separate vehicles.

The difference is that I respect my fiancé and wouldn't put him in an uncomfortable position and my ex husband also understands does what he can to make it a comfortable encounter - he is not in a relationship.

My fiance's ex wife is not like this and see's me as a barrier between her ex and her and their kids. She will demand that he assist her and if he doesn't she tells the kids how much of an ASS he his and that he once again chooses his "new family over his real family." Yes, those are her words.

He basically does what she says in order to avoid these dramatic outburst that pit his daughters against him and make him feel horrible. He will do this even if he knows that I will be upset because I'm not dramatic and will understand and get over issues more quickly than the others. I'm not making excuses for him just stating the facts.

I can tolerate a cohesive relationship with the ex - I just don't think I can handle she and the girls running the show any longer. My kids aren't perfect but they are respectful and appreciative which are the exact two qualities his girls (ex included) are lacking. I know this embarrasses him but he says that it's too late to expect any different as he allows them to be "expressive". I tend to agree as when he's tried to tell them to stop swearing at him for instance they just yell back and tell him that he's just saying that because of me. They resent the hell out of me for existing as they were like velcro to their Dad before I came into the picture. It was unhealthy as he would confide in them with inappropriate info and the girls ran the household as they saw fit.

I'm waiting to see how these holidays go with them home from school. If he allows them to control our holidays and manipulate our plans I'm done. I've always wanted him to stand up to them but he hasn't yet for fear of them getting angry with him. I can't tell you how many times we've made plans with them only for them to tell him last minute they don't want me there. I'm at the point where I don't want to be around them anymore anyway and it seems that by doing that it only gives them more ammunition to bring their Mom and Dad together the way they want it... I don't think I'll ever win.

I can see both sides to this as I have a cordial relationship with my ex as well. He has helped me with things around the house when I was single, we've attended events together etc... But since I have been a relationship I no longer ask him to do these things and we attend events in separate vehicles.

The difference is that I respect my fiancé and wouldn't put him in an uncomfortable position and my ex husband also understands does what he can to make it a comfortable encounter - he is not in a relationship.

My fiance's ex wife is not like this and see's me as a barrier between her ex and her and their kids. She will demand that he assist her and if he doesn't she tells the kids how much of an ASS he his and that he once again chooses his "new family over his real family." Yes, those are her words.

He basically does what she says in order to avoid these dramatic outburst that pit his daughters against him and make him feel horrible. He will do this even if he knows that I will be upset because I'm not dramatic and will understand and get over issues more quickly than the others. I'm not making excuses for him just stating the facts.

I can tolerate a cohesive relationship with the ex - I just don't think I can handle she and the girls running the show any longer. My kids aren't perfect but they are respectful and appreciative which are the exact two qualities his girls (ex included) are lacking. I know this embarrasses him but he says that it's too late to expect any different as he allows them to be "expressive". I tend to agree as when he's tried to tell them to stop swearing at him for instance they just yell back and tell him that he's just saying that because of me. They resent the hell out of me for existing as they were like velcro to their Dad before I came into the picture. It was unhealthy as he would confide in them with inappropriate info and the girls ran the household as they saw fit.

I'm waiting to see how these holidays go with them home from school. If he allows them to control our holidays and manipulate our plans I'm done. I've always wanted him to stand up to them but he hasn't yet for fear of them getting angry with him. I can't tell you how many times we've made plans with them only for them to tell him last minute they don't want me there. I'm at the point where I don't want to be around them anymore anyway and it seems that by doing that it only gives them more ammunition to bring their Mom and Dad together the way they want it... I don't think I'll ever win.

' I don't think I'll ever win.'

No, you won't.

You'll continue to be used until you're used up, & then you'll be tossed out.

You might start a little secret savings account for that day.

I did not read into the OP's comments anything that indicated she expected her partner to devote himself exclusively to her and "abandon" his daughters or avoid his ex at any cost.

I think any reasonable person would agree that a cordial relationship with an ex is the most desirable outcome.

But this does not sound like a relationship in balance. The OP has expressed deep dissatisfaction and frustration with a dynamic that seems essentially to favor the fiancé's original family to the detriment of his current one.

I was especially struck by this comment: He pays their rent and tuition which leaves very little for him to contribute to the household - which I ignore and pay the difference.

It's no surprise that divorce and the establishment of a second household can be a huge financial strain on a family. But when the OP says she is compensating for her fiancé's failure to carry his fair share, to me that is a significant red flag and not a good omen for the future.

I'm not pro-divorce and I don't think walking out is the appropriate response to every problem. I don't have an agenda and I'm not on a mission to vilify men.

But in this case the OP has expressed what seem to me quite rational dissatisfactions and doubts about the intensity of her fiancé's connection to his original family.

And if he's unwilling (or feels utterly unable) to address that issue and work on significant compromise then I don't know where else to go with this.

I stand by the "second string" comment because that's how I see it. Of course, not everyone will agree and that's what forums are for.

The ownership of the second string comment would be argued by his ex and kids as they now claim that they are in second place to me. Which physically may be true. But that has been by their own choice.

His girls will refuse to come over to our house because I own it and it was mine prior to meeting them all. And also of course because I'm there... That leaves their dad having to go visit them at their Mom's when he wants to see them.

They will also set unrealistic demands on his time and money - seemingly as a test of sorts so that if he says "No" they can hold that against him for the next 5-10 yrs and constantly remind him that he's never there when they need him.

"And if he's unwilling (or feels utterly unable) to address that issue and work on significant compromise then I don't know where else to go with this."

That's exactly where I'm at. I either learn to live with it or leave. He won't or can't set realistic boundaries with his kids, ex. He even went over to have coffee with his Ex MIL the other day because his daughter asked him to.

I think he does these things to make his kids happy and show them that he hasn't chosen me and my family over them.

Again, I highly doubt he will be changing any of these behaviors, and I think if I gave him an ultimatum, he may resent me for it. The worse part of this is that my mother was "the other woman" for many years and now that his wife has passed - he still treats her, and us, like second class citizens. And now I've noticed my 29 y/o daughter also settling for a man that thinks only of himself.

Thats what is motivating me to change my situation. I don't want my daughter to ever settle and that's exactly what I'm doing right now. I just needed to hear from people not close to the situation for an unbiased opinion.

Yes, you are settling.

What's most troubling about your post is that your husband pays the rent and tuition for two GROWN A$$ women and you are left picking up the slack.

So you have been with him for six years. Ever hear of the sunk cost fallacy? Basically you don't want to end a relationship because of the years of emotional investment you've put into it. But the past investment is "sunk" into the relationship and cannot be recouped. It is gone. Continuing with the relationship will not resuscitate what is gone when the investment is a bad one.

Thanking about what has already been will only prevent you from deciding what you want your life to be.

good explanation amber!

I work in real estate, & that's a good way to explain what happens when you install a swimming pool:
if you want a pool, go ahead & install one, but it won't add to your equity:
you are *not* 'investing' in your home, you are spending money.

Once you spend it, it's gone.

OP, you might want to see what would happen if you stop 'taking up the slack'.

Take away your usefulness & see if he still wants you around.

Sunk cost is not a fallacy. It's real, and yes, that's what you need to acknowledge and move on.

Based on your postings, here are what I see -

You take up financial slack, provide the home you own, endure the drama created by his 3 wives (ex. and 2 daughters) and accept emotional left over by rationalizing "I'm very independent and have a very busy career so I don't need a lot of attention. " In the mean time, you are showing your daughter and sons that this is acceptable for a woman being a second string, as well as for a man to take advantage of a woman.

And you do all of these for a man who is not your legally married husband. Are you in his will or living trust if something happens to him?

Since you are a career woman, if there are job description and expectation for a job of " relationship partner"; are you happy with this man's performance of his role? Will you keep him or fire him?

That's a good one azmom.. In my job I'm responsible for the hiring and firing so this hit home.

Yesterday when they insisted he take the 3 of them (ex & 2 daughters)out for breakfast if he wanted to see them. He refused and it turned into a huge fight where they insisted I was ruining there lives by preventing him from seeing his kids. They called him a dick and old him to f off. He went to his ex's house anyway and waited for them to get back and spent 10 min with them before they left for school.

I really want to say something to them about the hell they are putting their dad through. But I know it wont help.

The hell they're putting dad through is between them & dad.

"Saying something" to them (why not to him?) will only give them something else to gleefully pounce on, because they love to castigate you & they love conflict.

This is one sick family, & you're just getting deeper & deeper into it-
*engaging* in their co-dependency & making yourself a part of it.

Their conflict is not your fault,
it's not your responsibility,
it's not something that will ever be any better than it is now (it'll deteriorate until you're so exhausted & confused & enmeshed that you can't escape),
& the only way for you to 'win' is to wash your hands of them & their nightmare family life & start living a healthy life of your own.

None of them will ever thank you for trying to negotiate them into a better life;
the role you play in their melodrama is titled 'scapegoat', which means that they'll all hate you, always, no matter what you do.

which doesn't mean that they actually want you gone;
you serve a very important purpose:
Your presence enables them to go on with their very negative & destructive pattern without the stress of actually living together-or paying their own bills.

& so what do you get for this?
You're an outsider, you'll always be an outsider, you'll always be at fault, you'll never get "attention", you'll always pay this guy's bills (what kind of guy lets a woman subsidize his responsibilities?), you'll never be the primary woman in his life, & at some point, he'll get tired of you or you'll cease to fill the bill, & out you go.

broke & shattered.

Until you see yourself as a separate human being, entitled to basic respect & appreciation, & until you position yourself so that no one gets to use you, your life will just be re-runs of the stories you've posted.

Would you give an important assignment that has incredible impact to your company to an employee who behaves like your partner?

Sunk cost is water under the bridge. You may want to consider if it is worthwhile to "throw good money after bad", as well as your "opportunity cost".

Sounds to me you are a strong, competent and smart woman. I bet you know you are the only one who could take care of yourself, no one else would.

You are a winner, you are too good to waste your time on losers.

I know that I'm at fault for allowing all of this to go on. I've told him I wasn't happy with the way that he spoils his girls and the fact that I'm secondary in his life.

But, I don't do anything more than talk about it, then get over it until the next incident.

This is entirely my own fault for being in this situation. So do I request that changes be made and that I be put first? Or walk away?

I tell him all the time that it's his fault for allowing the girls to treat him so poorly - looking in the mirror, I'm no better for allowing him to do the same to me...

From what you have already posted, it sounds like you have already requested changes and they haven't happened. If you think this relationship is worth salvaging/salvageable, then I guess as a last-ditch effort you could sit your fiance down and have a heart to heart: "I'm considering leaving this relationship and this is why." If he is willing to make an effort, make a time limit, say, six months, and say, "We'll reassess things in --------- and see how it's going." If he isn't willing to make any changes well then you have your answer.
Use lots of "I" statements: "I feel unvalued when..." "I feel like a cash cow because..."I feel hurt when...", try to avoid too many "You" statements: "You ------------ and it makes me angry". And totally avoid "always" and "never" because then the other side only has to find one instance when it didn't happen that way to blow your argument out of the water.

' I don't do anything more than talk about it, then get over it until the next incident.'

It sounds like you just don't know how to be an effective advocate for yourself;
a lot of women & girls have this problem.

A smart person once told me,
"Women believe words, men believe actions."

& Lewis Grizzard, one of my favorite authors, said something like:

'Men think life is a game & it's all about winning.
What we don't realize is that women aren't playing a game; with a woman, if you win...you lose.'

He also said that guys will break up & make up with their girlfriends or wives time & time again, they'll declare "it's OVER!" & let themselves be talked into one more try or they'll bring flowers & act remorseful & ask for one more try, but when a woman says she's had it...she's had it.

It isn't just another strategy in the game;
the game is over.

My perspective is that a man who wants to 'win' over his partner/wife/girlfriend isn't worth the paper he's printed on:
if he doesn't have enough sense to recognize the difference between opposing football teams & family life, why spend your life begging him to stop tackling you?

You've tried talking, & it doesn't work, because it's just another inning in the game, & there aren't any consequences;
all he has to do is wait until you stop talking, & then he can go back to being the winner.

Treat yourself as though you were your own agent/advocate/lawyer.

State your terms, inform him of the consequences of his non-compliant behavior, & then *take action*.

& be prepared:
Once you actually take up for yourself & move (which is what you'll have to do to keep from continuing to have someone's shoes wiped on your face), you'll hear remorse, promises, pleas, heartrending begging.

It isn't lasting, it's just the next strategy in the gameplan, & once you're back where he wants you, nothing will have changed.

I am so sorry that you're in such a situation, but you just need to become your own best friend & take some action.

I wish you the best.

I took the advise of many of you and had the sit down with him last night. Surprisingly he said that he is also sick of the girls shenanigans and at his wits end too. He admitted to giving in to them just to shut them and their mother up so they would staff off his back. He realized that the whole thing has backfired and not only are they all unhappy with him, but so am I - and so is he.

I told him that if he wants a relationship with me, our relationship needs to come first. That means, no more sneaking around and hoping I don't find out, and discussing issues with me regardless of my reaction.

It also means that any significant expenditures will be discussed prior to promising anybody anything. This will be a partnership. He is free to see the girls whenever he wants - sans the ex. When it comes to life events, b-days, holidays, weddings, funerals etc... I will be there and they will be civil. They will not ban me from any event that there father is invited to. PERIOD.

If he can't do that, he can pack his bags and be on his merry way. I'm done being the Door Matt. He will also be paying 50% of all household bills regardless of his personal bills. The household bills will be paid FIRST.

He agreed to it all as he knows that what he's doing is not working for him or anyone else.

Let's see what happens, but I'm prepared to go it alone if he fails to hold his end of the bargain.

This feels so much better than just complaining about it!

Notsure, I'm glad you had this talk with your DH.

Slyvia - great post. The line that "women believe words, men believe actions" is so true!

I agree that you are going to have to take action. If you're not able to move out of the home maybe it's just moving to a spare bedroom - SOMETHING to show him that you are serious and aren't just "talk."

I think the ground rules the two of you have agreed on are reasonable and fair. Now you have to see if he follows them.

Good luck!

Good for you, girl!

got my fingers crossed!

Not Sure, Way to go! Stick to the financial agreement. If he won't do that, he won't do anything else you agreed to. Good for you for making it clear to him what you want. All the studies show if parents keep spending on adult children, they don't learn how to earn their own way, but only demand more. Time for them to grow up. Past time for him to contribute properly to your relationship... Financially, emotionally, and with his time.
I wish you a happy, peaceful, relationship!