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The homecoming dress

Posted by mom_of_2.5 (My Page) on
Sun, Oct 4, 09 at 22:55

So, my DD is a freshman in HS, and she's excited to go to homecoming with a group of her friends. I've always felt she was a little socially stunted so I'm thrilled she even wants to go. While at her dads she sent me pics from her phone in 3 dresses, that night she brought them home to try on so I could see them in person. She is 5'6" 116 lbs. with a very trim figure. None of the three dresses fit her well at all, 2 were size medium and one was a Large. They'd borrowed 2 from a friend and bought one online. None were stellar, so I offered her to keep looking.

The next weekend, my mom and I took her out to try on dresses. She sent her Dad a pic and he got all upset texting her "why are you trying on dresses, we went out of our way to get you a dress, I'm done your Mom can do it all." Of course she was upset, didn't want to like anything she tried on because she didn't want to upset her dad any further. Grammy finally got her to relax, she tried on 2 dozen dresses between 3 stores, she had a great time, felt pretty and she fell in love with a dress, I bought it for her.

This weekend she goes to her Dads and when I picked her up tonight she burst into tears, she had a horrible weekend. Her Dad yelled at her, her SM wouldn't talk to her, they took away her phone and made her go to bed early...all because she chose a different dress.

Am I crazy or are they missing the point? Her SM says it's her first dance she doesn't need to go try on 20 dresses. I say that's exactly why she deserves the experience of trying on 20 dresses. She should feel pretty, and confident, and comfortable in what she's wearing.

I can't believe they are being so immature about this.
I can't understand why it's more important to them that she wear a dress they acquired as opposed to the one she feels the best in.

I told DD last weekend if her Dad gave her a bad time, I'd be happy to take it up with him. She doesn't want me to talk to him about it because she's afraid he'll get more mad at her, and she doesn't want him and I to fight.

How do I encourage her to stand up for herself? I'm so afraid she'll wear the drab gray dress that's too big just to make him happy. She's so crushed and stunned he yelled at her.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: The homecoming dress

Tell DD not to worry about fights between Dad and you -- thats your preoblem. Can you trade time and get her when the dance is? Frankly, if she is old enough to be going to dances, she should have some say in visitation.

I dont think buying a dress online was a good idea? Whosse was it? Can it be returned?

Obviously X and SM are both jerks.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Assuming that she wasnt absolutely excited about the dresses until mom said they are drab and that there hasnt been ongoing drama where dad and sm are being overrun with nonsense like not liking things simply because dad and sm got it (and I only say that bc I dont remember your situation and for a lot of dad sm duos that is a common problem) .....
Dad and sm are being ridiculous. They are turning something that should be about her into a turf war and that is just unacceptable imo. While you cant actually do much about them feeling like they should punish her (completely ridiculous) you can have a few choice words with ol' daddy. I would also have a nice sit down with dd... and try to guide her towards standing up for herself by asking her questions that help her analyze her own feelings. How did it make you feel? Did you feel like you were wrong in wanting a dress that fit better? Take the focus off dad and mom fighting and onto her feelings. I would emphasize to her if she is really worried about getting into trouble... if that werent an issue what would you want to say. I try to tell my kids to trust their gut... if it feels wrong then it probably is. If it didnt feel wrong then maybe it wasnt and you need to ask yourself why are they upset over something that seemed like nothing. Maybe she could write him a letter (letters seem to work best for teens to express emotion) ... something along the lines of ... I was very grateful for what you did but my wanting a dress that made me feel beautiful for my first dance wasnt about hurting you or sm it was about how I wanted to feel about myself. I am sorry if that is how you took it. I cant understand how wanting to feel good about myself at my first dance would be something that would hurt you or sm or be a reason for punishment. As long as kid is being respectful it is not wrong for them to say I dont think this punishment is fair... I dont think your reaction is fair. Do you think you can explain why it is that you felt this way? Because right now I am hurt and confused by your response. It may get her no where but at least she would be learning that no matter who it is, if you feel like you are right you should stand up for yourself.


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RE: The homecoming dress

I think there are two separate issues -- possibly three going on, and by not separating them, you are "fighting different fights". I'll try to explain:

Issue #1 - The DRESS itself. The prettiest dress that DD loves that fits her well and makes her feel confident and pretty. This is the issue you seem to be focusing on, and it's a valid issue. (Did DD seem to like the dresses she sent you pictures of before you mentioned that you didn't like them?)

Issue #2 - PROVIDING the Dress. Dad and StepMom apparently went to some trouble to provide a dress for DD. How much trouble? I surely can't say -- but some trouble. And for you and DD to "throw away their gift" (even though I know that wasn't your intention) was probably perceived as a slap in the face. As an overt act of 'ingratitude' and rejection...

Issue #3 - The FIT, STYLE and CUT -- This may not actually be an issue in your case, but it often is. Fashions for young girls tend to run so sexy / slutty / revealing that it's rare to be able to find a dress that's modest enough for a parent, yet fashionable enough for a teen. Could be Dad wants her in a Burka and you want her to feel Hot - and that no dress on this earth could make you all happy?

If YOU were the one that thought the dress options Dad provided were not special enough, then I'd suggest you call or email Dad / StepMom and apologize for the "appearance of ingratitude" and just explain that as a Mom, you really wanted to make a special memory with your daughter and that they shouldn't blame her -- that SHE was grateful for their help and is now in tears and caught between a rock and a hard place.

Just my take on it...


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RE: The homecoming dress

I think everything Sweeby said is 100% dead on.

Especially this part:

"If YOU were the one that thought the dress options Dad provided were not special enough, then I'd suggest you call or email Dad / StepMom and apologize for the "appearance of ingratitude" and just explain that as a Mom, you really wanted to make a special memory with your daughter and that they shouldn't blame her -- that SHE was grateful for their help and is now in tears and caught between a rock and a hard place."

I don't recall your particular situation and it very well could be that SM and dad are just jerks.

It also could be like Sweeby said---that they felt they had gotten your DD a dress already. Is it possible she didn't tell them she didn't particularly care for the 3 choices? Is it possible, as well, that your opinion on the dresses changed hers? I don't mean that in a bad way---but is it possible that DD did initially like the 3 dresses they got for her and then her opinion changed when she realized YOU didn't love them?

I don't think they should be angry at her; the bottom line is, it is HER dance and you are right, she should feel beautiful and confident. But I'm wondering if there are some hurt feelings all around here.

I've BTDT with stuff we've bought for SS and, quite frankly, it IS irritating at times. I bought him a coat at Gap last year--actually, I bought the same style for DD, as well, in pink, and SS's was red/navy.

He seemed to like it but I guess BM didn't and then all of a sudden she claimed he hated it. Then a few weeks later he turned up wearing a new winter coat and we never saw the Gap one again. Honestly--I was a little peeved because it was not an inexpensive coat. I wasn't angry at SS, but keep in mind, he was only 6 at the time.

Is it possible your DD asked dad/stepmom to get her a dress? If so, and they did, and then she went on and got a different one, I do think it is kind of rude. Welll--I don't know if RUDE is the right word but I do see how they could be irritated/hurt/annoyed by that.

BUT again--it is about her. The online dress can be returned. I think what is key here is that DD speak up for herself on all accounts.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Oh please, of course fit was an issue.

"She is 5'6" 116 lbs. with a very trim figure. None of the three dresses fit her well at all, 2 were size medium and one was a Large. They'd borrowed 2 from a friend and bought one online"

It seems to me either dad and sm have no common sense or just dont care. Yes, mom groveling to dad is one option. Mom, if I were you, I would start investigating things like in your state, does state mandate NCP pay for college. Because I see dad is trying to create issues.


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RE: The homecoming dress

I also am wondering how your daughter felt about her three dresses to choose from, especially the one that was purchased. Did she pick that one for/by herself, and then you came along and disliked all of them? I expect she's the one that picked it, in which case her dad and sm's efforts end up wasted attention, time, and money and unappreciated to boot. I think she has learned three valuable lessons. One is not to purchase such clothing articles online since you can't try them on. A sweat suit or coat or something where perfect fit is less important would be okay, or be prepared to have a tailor/dressmaker on standby for alterations. Another one is an important lesson in self worth, in that she has learned special occasions should be treated special, and she shouldn't settle for less than a look she absolutely loves. It usually means shopping/looking around a bit. If she turns out anything like me, it means looking quite a bit or even designing the outfit herself (yes, I get on my own nerves LOL). The final lesson is not to take others for granted. That was a hard one for her to come by and brought her to tears and ill feelings from dad and sm, but it kinda looks like you, mom, are the one who started this war. Please help her fix it. I hope she has also learned to speak up for herself. Just as easily as you expected and allowed her to blow off dad and sm's efforts and had to tell them she chose a different dress, she could have thanked you but declined your offer to continue shopping, knowing she already had three to choose from. Most dry cleaners offer tailoring services for adjustments.


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RE: The homecoming dress

It sounds to me just as likely that Dad and SM tried to get the cheapest way out they could, and then didnt want to look like their choices were not really good. It sounds to me that D is inexperienced -- and who should she look to for advice if not her mom? She sought out her mom for advice.

OP, I am certain you will get through this. Groveling to dad is not a bad idea. Better for you to learn more about how dad and SM want to handle things like a dress. I think you should investigate whether your X can be required to contribute to colleg.


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RE: The homecoming dress

I'm confused how this particular topic has anything to do with college?


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Why relevant

Becuase Love, unlike you, here Dad and SM borrowed 2 and bougth 1 dress in wrong size, and it sounds like they tried to get off cheap, and then resent it when it backfires.

Sounds like mom will get through it. But she should be thinking ahead.

Many here base concerns about moms future behaivor based on prior behaiovor. Entirely fair, but it should also apply to Dad and SM. If they show no commen sense or are cheap, mom should plan ahead, and I think college is the biggest issue facing a 16YO child of divorce.


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RE: The homecoming dress

It does sound like Dad & StepMom tried to "cheap out" on the dress --

But comparing their attitudes toward buying a homecoming formal to paying for a college education is like comparing an apple to a dishwasher. They're not the same at all... A homecoming formal for a HS freshman is the ultimate wear-it-once then never see it again expenditure. And in these tough financial times, it's easy to justify trying not to spend a lot on those... But that doesn't necessarily reflect their attitudes toward the value of an education.

However, Mom should also be clear on Dad's responsibilities / plans for DD's college -- not specifically because of 'the dress incident' -- but because it's the right thing to do for her DD.


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RE: The homecoming dress

I don't see where the "cheap" comes from. They bought her a dress. How many dresses do people normally purchase for one homecoming, so how do you jump to conclusions about them cheaping out? There's nothing that indicates the cost of the dress, where it was purchased from, or that dresses purchased online are automatically inexpensive. It seems kind of lazy and unconcerned that they purchased a dress of this kind online, but maybe that's mainly sm/they shop these days. A lot of people don't want to have to mall hop anymore. Plus, we don't know if it was the daughter's idea. It's likely she decided to shop online and found one she liked. They borrowed a couple dresses for her to select among the three, like maybe they weren't thrilled with the one she chose online but got it for her anyway. Mom of 2.5 hasn't returned yet to address who picked the dress that was purchased. I mentioned it because I can't imagine either dad or sm made that kind of decision for her. So, I'm thinking she picked a dress she liked online, they bought it for her, and then still tried to offer some alternatives. How many did they have to buy? Where were they being cheap and how do you know? I don't see anything in the story that indicates they were trying to get off cheap.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Sweeby, I agree. I think the answer is if I didnt have the money for a homecoming dress, I would go hat in hand to X, and ask him to help. Which had Dad done, all would have been fine. And I would have not stood in his way or tried to get "credit".

Thermo, if you bothered to read, you would see that two of the three were borrowed from friends, and ALL were wrong size. I think getting the wrong size is an indication of either cheap or no common sense. I dont mall hop either. I hate to shop. So if wrong size, I'm thinking they went on line and limited to as little money as possible and didnt care about size.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Good lord people!

Cheap out??? Where is there any indicator that dad and stepmom "cheaped out" on the dress? They bought her a dress online. Just because it is the wrong size certainly doesn't mean it was cheap! Maybe the size chart online didn't match up with what they thought. Maybe, since the girl in question is 5'6", dad didn't want her in a super short dress and felt a medium would be a better fit? Maybe they worried a size small would be too tight?

GOODNESS. I have ordered the wrong size PLENTY of times, it certainly does not equate to being "cheap." We don't know how much was spent on the dress or where it was purchased from or any number of other factors that indicate "cheap."

I think EVERYONE is jumping to massive conclusions here, myself included. WE DON'T KNOW. All we are doing is surmising at this point.

I was sitting here thinkng about the borrowing of dresses and wondering how that came about. Maybe it's possible that a friend of SM's said "oh, I have two BEAUTIFUL dresses that my own daughter wore two yrs ago, would you like to see them?" And SM said sure, we'll take a look. WHO KNOWS. It could be something as innocuous as that. We don't know for sure that dad and SM set out on a MISSION to borrow two large dresses. Maybe someone casually offered them and SM or dad said "sure, why not? We can try them."

I didn't hear ANYONE say that SM or dad went STRAIGHT to GOODWILL and purchased the cheapest, biggest dress they could find.

Mom of 2.5, where are you? We definitely need more details here.


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RE: The homecoming dress

So what was the original agreement? Who was first asked to buy an outfit? Dad? Mom? Or not discussed prior to the 'shopping trip' the weekend at Dad's house?

As I know nothing about Dad, I can't say if father was being a cheapo/not caring or if father really tried to provide with what little he may have had to provide with. And yeah, did daughter pick out and agree to and like the online purchase? That would make a big difference in advice/opinion from me.

With money tight for many families around my neck of the woods, I noticed there were far less 'knock em dead' outfits this year. I did not see the usual trying to out do each other. Lots of pretty dresses and pantsuits with much effort put into hair. I also saw more group dates (group of guys or group of girls) going together and just having fun rather than a big date night.

But back to the issue. If Dad really tried his best and daughter was excited and happy, yeah, your rejection, punched the father in the nose pretty soundly. You could have used your money to alter the fit. You could have spent your money to do the great hair, facial and nails and maybe a cool accent piece to sweeten up the outfit. With any taste and a bit of talent one can make a flour sack look great.

May I sugest, you work things out for daughter with Dad--you created the problem by rejecting his effort. So why did you not pick up the phone when the pictures were coming in and discuss with Dad? You could have offered then to take daughter shopping and instead have Dad do another part of the event for daughter? Did daughter realize at the time she could have said 'hey, dad, I'm still looking around, let's hold off a bit'?

But to take daughter's phone away and send her to bed early? Both Dad and Mom need to take this as a lesson learned and get their plans for events lined up to prevent future repeats of this. If Dad can't afford what Mom wants and can let daughter have, then Mom, you announce a head of time you'll do the shopping trip. If Dad has the money and wants to pay but has no taste in style, that would be an issue between Dad and daughter to work out.

If daughter choses to wear the purchase Dad got her, I hope you make the best of it by helping to make the daughter look special and beautiful in it. You have to work with what you got unless you arrange prior to any shopping or borrowing attempts.


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Different standards

Well, gee Love,

They tried 3 dresses, 2 were borrowed and 1 on line. All 3 wrong sized. Get back to us with what you do for your D's first dance. Seems to me like one standard for dad/SMs one for moms.

I have heard many complaints here about mom doing as little as possible for kids clothes with used, etc. I guess lower standards for dad and SM. OK, but mom should deal with it.


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Jump on mom

Dear Mom of 2.5,

Many of these people are SMs who dont hesitate to complain when the mom of their skids buys bargain or inappropriate clothing, so take what they say now as biased and with a grain of salt.

You did not kick your X, he and SM bought inapprapriate attire. The SMs here did offer some good advice, when dealing with a jerk of a spouse and SM, grovel, to get throught the day, and suggest to D that you go shopping with her in future. Also, consult lawyer to make certian you are maxing out on Child support and college.

Good luck!!


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RE: The homecoming dress

Thanks for the sarcasm, KK.

I said we are ALL jumping to conclusions. We don't know the circumstances of how the dresses came to be "borrowed." Did dad and SM say to DD "we're not buying you a dress, you have to borrow from a friend, even if it doesn't fit."

Or did (and I think more likely) someone offer the dresses to them, thinking they were being nice, and SM/Dad said "what the heck, why not."

They BOUGHT HER A DRESS. How do we know they wouldn't have returned it for a different size if she had asked????? Ordering online is always tricky. You never know how things will fit. Quite frankly, a size med. for a girl who is 5'6" doesn't sound THAT off the wall to me. My mom is 5'8" and VERY skinny, she must weigh about 110 lbs, not kidding, but she wears a size medium in all her tops. She just doesn't like things to be tight.

Did DD say "hey, dad, I don't think this fits right, can we exchange it for a small?" WE DON'T KNOW. All we know is mom to 2.5 thought the dress ordered online didn't fit. Maybe for dad's fatherly taste he felt it was fine. And mom to 2.5 thought it wasn't "sexy" enough.

Forget the two borrowed dresses for now. Let's find out how that came about. I offered some of DD's old princess Halloween costumes to my friend the other day---her DD is 6 months younger, and wears a size smaller than my DD. I don't know if she'll take them or not, but even if she does---she is not a "cheap" person.

I'm not even saying that dad/SM should have "made" her wear a borrowed dress.

I'm also assuming that if she didn't like the dress ordered online, she could have a)exchanged it or b) returned it and spent an equal amount at the mall, a boutique, etc.

I ordered a dress for one of my highschool dances from Victoria's Secret and it was NOT cheap.

GOOD GRIEF.


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reply

"Dear Mom of 2.5,
Many of these people are SMs who dont hesitate to complain when the mom of their skids buys bargain or inappropriate clothing, so take what they say now as biased and with a grain of salt.

You did not kick your X, he and SM bought inapprapriate attire. The SMs here did offer some good advice, when dealing with a jerk of a spouse and SM, grovel, to get throught the day, and suggest to D that you go shopping with her in future. Also, consult lawyer to make certian you are maxing out on Child support and college.

Good luck!!"

This is really disgusting, KKNY.


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RE: The homecoming dress

and Love,

If someone offered to loan you a dress for your Ds first dance, I think you would be more discriminating in accepting it. Why should step kids be charity cases? And we dont know if online means Norstroms or craigslist. But that all were the wrong size -- and that one was a large to me indicate either no one was paying attention or someone was only looking at the $$ (oh please, I love the excuses, OP started off her D having a trim figure).

I dont think your daughter will be in this position for her first dance.

Maybe D didnt handle this well -- BUT SHES A KID. Dad and SM are supposed to be adults. They werent. But as always, I forgot the rule here, SM is always right.

My guess is mom will avoid this problem in the future, I'ld like to coach her to avoid the other logical problems with insesnsitive or cheap dad and sm.


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replying

Again, KK, NOBODY said SKs should be charity cases.

We don't KNOW how the borrowed/given dresses came about! We don't KNOW that the DD was opposed to it before they didn't fit. Again, I say, they BOUGHT HER A DRESS. It's not like they came home with two freebies and said these are your only choices. They bought her a dress! How many are they going to be expected to purchase? If it really didn't fit, then they could have returned/exchanged it!

We don't know if the daughter had input in the dress ordered online. Maybe she chose it! Maybe she asked her dad to buy it!

We don't know.

I want to hear more details as to how the dress was ordered; I also want to know how it came to be that dad bought the dress initially. Did his DD ask him to and he obliged? Or did SM do it on her own? (I doubt dad did!)


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RE: The homecoming dress

You can't really buy formal or after-five clothes on-line;
the sizes in formalwear are all over the place.
A "large" could fit a big girl or a tiny one.

& the fact that the dad & stepmom *bought* a dress means less than nothing since they did it in a way almost guaranteed to not work.

How much trouble would it possibly have been to take the girl shopping for a dress to wear to her first dance?

Only thing I would change if I were OP is I'd nip this nonsense with dad right now, not ask daughter to tell me if he acts ugly again this week-end.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Retraction: "Dad & StepMom [may have] tried to "cheap out" on the dress -- "
When I buy online, price is usually one of the major motivators. Vast selection and avoiding the mall are bonuses, but for clothes, not being able to try them on is a big deterrant.
(And FYI, I don't consider 'cheap' to be an insult. To me, it's a challenge!)

A whole lot depends on how the whole first half of the dress buy went down:

- Whose idea it was to buy a dress?
- Who chose the dress online?
- Was it ebay? (Here's the dress)
- Or an online store (which size? And if so, who chose the size?)
- How the borrowed dresses came into the picture (friends volunteered? parents asked their freinds?)
- What are Dad's financial circumstances?
- What are Dad's financial values?
- Did DD like any of the first 3 dresses?

Bottom line -- without knowing all of those, we really can't say what happened.

It's possible that Dad & StepMom put very little time, thought or effort into dress selection -- as evidenced by the wrong sizes, borrowed and online sourcing. And if that's the case, being 'shown up' by Mom's big production might easily have hit a nerve.

OR -- They may have done their very best, offering to buy their daughter the exact dress she chose, which happened to be online. Then in addition to that, their friends kindly volunteered some lovely dresses their daughters had worn once (or never - it happens). And DD was so happy! Until Mom stepped in and criticized, calling the dresses frumpy and ill-fitting... (sending DD's confidence down the toilet) That would certainly hit a nerve also.


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RE: The homecoming dress

The issue here is that a girl needed a dress for a dance. Does it matter WHO bought it? or HOW MUCH it cost? or who gets CREDIT for it?

Isn't the most important thing... whether the girl is happy and has a good time?

My SD got married two weekends ago. Her father and my sister are recently (in the last year) divorced after more than 25 years together. It has been bitter with BOTH being immature and petty. My ex BIL told his daughter that he would walk her down the aisle but if my sister was going to be at the reception, he was not. At the last minute, he relented and agreed to stay but the words/actions were out there and the hurt feelings may never completely heal. My niece was walked down the aisle and cried the entire time. I have never seen a sadder looking bride and it broke my heart...

I am just so SICK of parents that put their own agenda's first and disregarding how it makes the kids feel!


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RE: The homecoming dress

Wow, I was pretty sure the OP was asking for advice on how to advise her daughter to stand up for herself. It seems that we started jumping to some pretty major conclusions... maybe it's just me but I try to assume if the person is coming here for advice they at least somewhere have good intentions... ie my whole preface on my response assuming a few issues were cohesive. I mean we went from OP asking for advice on how to talk to her daughter to dad is cheap blah blah blah

I just want to reiterate that (like Ima said) it isnt about mom dad or sm. The dress issue is really neither here nor there... the problem is now getting dd to feel confident enough about herself to stand up for herself. The reactions from the parents dont seem right and I cant think that they seem right to her no matter what the issue with the dress was (dad being cheap mom being ridiculous..whatever) But, there are ways to stand up for yourself (even to parents...whichever parent that may be)that are respectful and show maturity and there are ways that are just plain unacceptable.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Good grief. This post has gone far into left field. Enough!

Having just done Freshman homecoming with my SD last week I will offer my two cents.

First of all, we - GASP! - bought her dress online. She had a certain style she wanted, so she started Googling it to see what was out there. She came across one she LOVED that her dad and I were comfortable with. Before buying it we went to the mall to make sure she didn't find anything better, and actually found the same dress there in a medium. We assumed she would be a small but tried it on anyway and low and behold - it fit perfectly. So, we went home, ordered the dress online for half the price and called it a day.

That said - if I just said I ordered it online would you have known what lead up to it? No. You are ALL jumping to conclusions on details that, I believe, aren't even at the cruz of the issue.

I'm certain there is more backstory on how these three dresses showed up. Obviously the one ordered didn't show up the next day. So who ordered it? What it a surprise or prompted? Did SD pick it out, get it and dislike it, so they looked for other options from friends? Here it is very custom to swap dresses among friends - if you are on the Homecoming Court FOUR dresses are required. Do you really expect parents to buy all four? If a borrowed dress fits well and makes the girl happy, who gives a rip?

I think, before taking SD out shopping, mom should have had a conversation with dad to get the backstory on the dresses. He obviously went to some effort to provide them, ill fitting or not. He wanted to do something nice for his daughter. To take her shopping and pull the rug out from under him and then send texts to rub his nose in it, was rude, IMO. I think, were the shoe on the other foot, mom would appreciate how that would hurt. Some adult interaction for the good of the child was definitely called for here and would have made all this a non-issue.

That said, dad and SM's reaction was crap. I can understand the hurt, but the punishment seems way out of line. Again though - how do we know SD didn't insist that dress was perfect and they didn't drop $100 on it for nothing? That, I would say, would warrant a consequence.

I think it's time for both of you to parent up and talk. And then, if warranted, SD may owe her dad and SM an apology. Next time, perhaps discussion before the big even would be good?


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RE: The homecoming dress

I assume that mom will deal with BEFORE the next event. She should have also learned to deal with other things before needed too. As to SD owing an apology, Dad and SM already took away her phone and sent her to bed. Gee maybe maybe Dad and SM owe SD an apology. Oh, foolish me, I forgot, SMs never owe apologies here.

As to dad "obviously" making some effort -- how do you know.


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really?

because three dresses ended up with SD, KK. THAT'S how I know. They didn't fall from the freakin' sky. There was at least some thought and effort put forth.

I don't know what crawled up your butt today and why you feel the need to pull your lame old blanket "SM's are always right' BS line with me, but enough of the broken record. I thought you were past that.

If SD somehow played a part in this situation she owes an apology. Yes, dad and SM should owe one as well for their reaction, but we don't know just how far over the top it was because we don't have the whole story.

But how like you to assume the BM is always right.
:-P


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RE: The homecoming dress

Oh that sounds familiar. SO's DD20 needed an outfit for DD27 wedding. BM initially refused to help saying that she needs to buy a suit for her unemployed BF LOL then she bought a cheap dress for DD20, it was short, revealing, tight, not dressy and inappropriate. DD20 is in college and cannot afford buying a dress. What BM bought couldn't possibly be worn to sister's wedding. DD27 lives out of state and couldn't buy DD20 a dress.

So of course my SO went with DD20 and bought her a nice dress (not expensive just nice), I bought her earings and she borrowed my purse to match. DD 20 looked great.

BM was pissed, but who cares. What BM bought was inappropriate and ridiculous.

In this situation if dad and SM bought a dress that looks and fits wrong, then there is nothing wrong with mom buying what looks fine.

they borrowed dresses from a friend and expect SD to wear them even if they don't fit, how does it make any sense...

who needs to apologize and what for? If I buy DD somehting that fits and looks wrong then she is not obligated to wear it. If dad buys something better, i am glad to return what i bought. And who buys dresses online or borrows from friends? Dresses didn't even fit.

By the way one can find inexpensive items that look nice if one puts effort into it. It is not about money.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Bad day KKNY? It's been a while since we heard that tone from you...

It seems like you're very sure that Dad & StepMom's side of the dress-buy was a bare minimum (time, effort & expense) slap-in-the-face "good-enough-for-StepKids" effort. It's possible that's how SM felt. But it's also possible that SD whined, dithered, wavered, pouted and manipulated her way into four different dresses! Or that BioMom couldn't stand the thought of letting her DD wear a dress SM (who has no taste!) had helped choose and had to reassert her rightful place in the universe. Or that DD thinks of herself as 'medium-sized' (because at her age, to her friends, she probably is) and ordered the wrong size.

You've certainly mischaracterized suggestion that Mom should apologize to Dad for undermining him and take responsability for her own role in the new dress purchase suggestion into a "grovel". If BioMom knew Dad had paid for a dress (which she admits she did), then set out to replace it -- whatever her motivations -- then she's taking Dad's efforts --however great or small -- and deliberately throwing them away.

Of course Dad's going to be annoyed at that! Now who should he be annoyed at?

- At DD for instigating the purchase of a new dress? (It would not be unreasonable for him to assume she was the instigator.)

- At BioMom for going around him and behind his back to "look like a hero" and make his efforts "wasted"? (Safe to bet he's mad at her too, I think.)

I think JNM nailed it with her comments that:

"I think, before taking SD out shopping, mom should have had a conversation with dad to get the backstory on the dresses. He obviously went to some effort to provide them, ill fitting or not. He wanted to do something nice for his daughter. To take her shopping and pull the rug out from under him and then send texts to rub his nose in it, was rude, IMO.

I think it's time for both of you to parent up and talk. And then, if warranted, SD may owe her dad and SM an apology. Next time, perhaps discussion before the big even would be good?


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Dress

JNM, Three dresses, all of which were the wrong size, one way off. If they acquired two mediums, I could somehow understand that, but when you add the large in the picture to this trim girl, it doesnt seem to me that dad and SM made much effort? Seems much more like FDs situation. Oh, but wait that was a mom buying inappropriate clothing, so we certainly cant compare that.

I believe the general rule here is to beleive the poster, unless inconsistent.

OP, a lot of advice here. To summarize, my recco,

1. Call your X and apoligize, blame on you. Dont worry if not true, you and mom can have a few laughs later. And there are an awful lot of SMs here who complain when mom buys inappropriate stuff.

2. Tell D not to let Dad berate her. Call you if problem.

3. In future, tell D to stall if dad wants to "help" her with shopping. Dont tell Dad about any parties til you two can work it out. He is way overly sensitive.

4. Again, check that you are getting max Child support and discuss college with lawyer. Since dad cant handle clothing, make certain you get as much CS as possible. And please, make certain you deal with college as early as possible. If you are going to have to negotatiote with dad and SM you want to know. OTOH, some states will order NCP to pay tuition.

No matter what mom did re dress, dad over-reacted with D and shows no judgement.

And tell your D to have a great time !!


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RE: The homecoming dress

"Bottom line -- without knowing all of those, we really can't say what happened.

It's possible that Dad & StepMom put very little time, thought or effort into dress selection -- as evidenced by the wrong sizes, borrowed and online sourcing. And if that's the case, being 'shown up' by Mom's big production might easily have hit a nerve.

OR -- They may have done their very best, offering to buy their daughter the exact dress she chose, which happened to be online. Then in addition to that, their friends kindly volunteered some lovely dresses their daughters had worn once (or never - it happens). And DD was so happy! Until Mom stepped in and criticized, calling the dresses frumpy and ill-fitting... (sending DD's confidence down the toilet) That would certainly hit a nerve also."

As usual, Sweeby stated everything clearly and concisely. !00% agree.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Wow. Bigs bowls of cream all around to refresh inbetween cat fights ;-0

I do not nor did not ever view this thread about homecoming dresses a biological verses step-parent issue. I saw it what for what , to me, it appears: a disagreement between father and mother of the girl aka, a lack of prior expectations and communication. This could have very while happened between these two parents even if there were no step-parent in the picture.

We could all go wild assuming or imagining what took place and why and how it happened--seems we're all well on that path now.

When my oldest daughter (DD28) went to her first dance in high school it was and still is a common practice to get the girls outfit anyway that best worked and fit the parents budget. Nothing wrong with that. At one time the school she attended even had a 'Dance Sale' about a month prior to events. It was like a co-signment store set up in the Gym where dresses and whatnot could be brought in and sold/traded and they used the locker room to try stuff on. The attitude was not 'here, come and get our castaways'. They spotted having it when a store actually opened full time that could be shopped at fulltime year round.

DD28 is 4 foot 10 and 1/2 inches tall and during highschool weighed in at between 85 and 90 pounds. She was hard to fit. By the time her wedding came around we ended up oredering a gown in that had to be altered down to fit her. Never in my wildest dreams would I have let her dad take her shopping. Her dad hates to shop, has ticket shock when the amount rings up and he decided ages ago that his only duty in dressing daughter besides handing her the cash was to say 'you look beautiful' when all was said and done.


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nice quote

"Her SM says it's her first dance she doesn't need to go try on 20 dresses."

I think it says it all. There was no effort and no doing their best. I think with this attitude dad and SM need to stay away from any future clothes purchases.


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RE: The homecoming dress

I only see one person here who is one-sided, perpetuating an agenda, and deliberately determined to be insulting to the other posters, as everything she has stated is, to me, pure conjecture. The bottom line is mom of 2.5, the mother and OP, was as wrong as wrong can possibly be. Rather than help her daughter "stand up for herself" she can parent by example and fix this problem that she has caused for her daughter. Wherever the dresses came from, however much they cost, whatever sizes they are - frumpy-looking or otherwise, what little effort went into acquiring them, and in whichever way dad and sm overreacted, mom of 2.5 should have handled the situation better. She was the inconsiderate one. Everyone can assume whatever they want and blow every detail out of proportion however they wish. She was wrong, owes dad and/or sm an apology, and needs to explain to her daughter exactly how she (mom) contributed to the situation exploding the way it did, so her daughter can dry her eyes and stop feeling like the guilty party and have fun at homecoming dance. Then, hopefully, her daughter will learn how to "stand up for herself" by preventing volatile situations in the future, as well as preventing herself from being dragged in unwittingly as accessory. I'm not saying mom of 2.5 wasn't supposed to buy the fourth dress. I, for one, am glad she did if the other dresses didn't fit right or at least have one altered for her daughter to wear. I'm happy her daughter is now completely delighted with her dress even though I don't know how she felt about the other ones. As I mentioned before, I expect the daughter chose the purchased one herself. However, I think mom of 2.5 should have spoken with dad and/or sm beforehand. She's the one who blew off their efforts and taught her daughter to do the same, but daughter had to pay the price.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Oh please, the SM (and likely dad) just didnt care. The quote that FD pulled says it all. "Her SM says it's her first dance she doesn't need to go try on 20 dresses."

I dont really care if I am outnumbered here. Time after time I have shown I care about kids. And the way dad treated his own kid was terrible. I stand by my advice to OP. If dad cared, he would not have exploded.


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RE: The homecoming dress

"Her SM says it's her first dance she doesn't need to go try on 20 dresses."

sounds like a jealous step-mother to me, & I do recognize the symptoms-I grew up with a *mother* who was jealous of every gift we got, every achievement we made (unless it reflected glory on her), who bought my brothers' birthday presents from garage sales while she bought expensive things for her friends (because they would praise her for being so generous).

I'm glad this young girl's mom was there to take her shopping & let her try on a bunch of dresses & buy her the one she wanted.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Since this thread has already run rampant with assumptions, I am going to assume that were you not so determined to be totally against dads and stepmoms just to automatically support birth moms no matter what they do, then you would see how everything you have stated in all of your posts are completely beside the point. Now matter how much you attack dad and stepmom and no matter how much you hate them even though you don't know them, you cannot make mom of 2.5 right in this. She was wrong. Everything else is incidental and beside the point. Characterizing the explosion is beside the point. The explosion was direct result of birth mom's actions.


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RE: The homecoming dress

"The explosion was direct result of birth mom's actions."

That logic would mean that, if mom were to take dad to task for smacking daughter & dad were to react angrily, it would be mom's fault for confronting him.

which isn't logical.


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RE: The homecoming dress

"That logic would mean that, if mom were to take dad to task for smacking daughter & dad were to react angrily, it would be mom's fault for confronting him."

Are you really comparing Dad buying DD a dress that mom thinks doesn't fit (because in all honesty we don't know what DD initially felt) to him smacking her?
The latter is someting to get ANGRY over. And of course BM would be angry and call dad on it. But for all we know, Dad thought he was doing something nice for his daughter by buying her a dress.

I don't get the comparison.

Dad/SM may have over-reacted, we don't know. Many people keep saying that. We just don't know until we hear more details about how the dress was purchased, whose idea it was to buy it, did DD like it, if she didn't, did she tell dad? Did dad balk at returning or exchanging the dress? Did he tell her "too bad, this is all you get, like it or not." Or could it be that dad thought DD was perfectly happy with her dress and was caught off guard when she went shopping for a new one?

We don't know.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Uh, well I'm not sure where all the other stuff is coming from OP said "How do I encourage her to stand up for herself?" as well as what SM said about not needing to try on 20 dresses. It seems to me it is an example of OPs daughter not being able to communicate with Dad and SM for some reason. We don't know the reason, but I think it would be obvious to any female interested in buying a girls first homecoming dress that the dresses didn't fit. Which also begs the question WHY did they want to get the dress so desperately if they couldn't be bothered to get one to fit?

To me there are two different issues:
-why can't Daughter communicate with Dad? And I doubt it has anything to do with Biomom, it is a problem for Dads household.
-why did Dad and SM insist on buying or borrowing a dress, when they couldn't be bothered to get it fitted? Wouldn't Mom be better suited if she was willing and could? Someone is having a power struggle here and doesn't sound like Mom to me.


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RE: The homecoming dress

I'm all for standing up for yourself -- but not when your actions have hurt others.

In this case, DD's decision to go along with Mom and buy another dress hurt Dad's feelings -- predictably. So 'standing up for herself' to Dad would have been compounding the problem, not alleviating it. When your inconsiderate actions cause others pain, you don't need to learn how to defend yourself, you need to learn to find the grace to admit some of your actions were wrong and hurtful and to apologize. (Not grovel KKNY -- apologize like a grown-up.)

And then you need to learn to find your own inner compass -- to listen to that little voice that says 'This dress really isn't what I want' and find the guts to tell Dad 'Thanks for the generous offer, but I'm going to keep looking'. Or to tell Mom 'No Mom, Dad already bought me the dress I chose. I'm sorry you don't like it, but buying another one would really hurt Dad's feelings and that wouldn't be right.'

That's standing up for herself in the right way --
and I'm all in favor of that.


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RE: The homecoming dress

But Sweeby, when you've done nothing that wrong, but dad and SM were thoughtless, but exercise a position of power (at least for now) over your child, then groveling may be the best tack. As pointed out, they just didnt care.


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RE: The homecoming dress

While the OP is stating the dresses Dad provided did not fit well, she also is telling us she flat out did not like them. It's in the words "None were stellar, so I offered her to keep looking" and " I'm so afraid she'll wear the drab gray dress ".

Now ask 'if the plain, boring (yawn) dress, had fit like a glove, would Mom still had rejected it'? I suspect she would have. Which takes me back to my original thought that Mom should have stated prior to any purchases by any one that she would like to do the shopping trip with daughter or at the very least assured daughter it'd be okay to hold off if Dad and her were not agreeing or finding something she really liked.

SM gets a tiny benefit of the doubt in her ridiculous comment of not having to try on 20 dresses for a first dance in that she said it after the fact of the rejection and replacement. Now if I thought this was indeed SM's attitude before and during the Dad attempt of providing the dress, I'd be wondering why Mom was leaving it in Dad's hands to start with, but it came after hurt feelings and we have little to go on as to how the context of statements all played out.


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RE: The homecoming dress

We dont know if mom left this in Dad's house, or it got away from her.

We dont know where the stellar remark came from. If something doest fit, it certainly isnt stellar.

But your right, hopefully OP will think about all this, and help her D deal with this better next time.

And OP, we're all hoping your D has a great time !!!


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RE: The homecoming dress

Maybe my brain is working a little slow tonight, but pretending I was OP's daughter in my mind...even as an adult I see nothing to apologize about. It's pretty clear that the dress for Daughter wasn't a huge event at Dad and SM's house. Three dresses where not a one fit. The third bought online (and I thought it was pretty universally thought that buying online was going to have sizing issues, so better be prepared for doing it) and even when that didn't fit, there are no plans for altering it. In that event, I don't see what the issue is going with someone else to try on dresses and actually have the dress finding experience and a dress that fits.

Honestly? Starting to remind me of Cinderella. Here are your scraps you can make a dress out of and be happy about it. How dare Cinderella want a new dress that fits? lol, I can't even believe that some of this is becoming an argument. Next thing you know the next argument is going to be some people have to go to thrift stores to get a dress, implying that OP's daughter is just down right entitled and spoiled since she dared go with her Mother to buy a dress that actually fits her. The shock and horror!

The only thing I can see Daughter changing is to stand up for herself at Dads. SAY she doesn't like the dress if she doesn't. I find it hard to believe that Dad and SM didn't notice the sizing issue, but again, maybe they didn't because it wasn't important. Whatever, however it happened...Daughter needs to be able to voice to Dad these things. Because she didn't leads me to think there is more to just dresses, it is a pattern of not being able to tell Dad and SM things which is way more important than a dress in any event.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Funny, I missed the part where it was said there were no plans for alterations. Or the part where they spent a whole day looking online and SD and chose that dress asked dad to order a large because the dress was short. Or the part where dad and SM just don't care at all, but yet put out unrequired effort to participate in homecoming. Or the part where she liked the dress they borrowed until mom didn't.

YOU KNOW WHY I MISSED THAT? Because NONE OF IT WAS SAID. You have all spun off some wack ass presumptions based off NO fact.

The bottom line is it was crass and immature for mom to belittle what ever effort was put out by dad and not talk to him about the issues she saw with the dresses he provided.

You all know damn well had dad done that to her, or any of you, there would be hell to pay. As there should be.

Be the bigger person. THAT is how you teach your child to stand up for herself. By example.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Hmm...maybe we are reading different things. The impression I got from the original posting was that OP's daughter was given the option of 3 dresses by Dad and SM. She brought them to Moms home to try on and see how they liked it. At this point I'm thinking since Daughter is bringing them to Mom that Dad and SM know that she hasn't picked one out yet or there's a definite dress they got her in the bunch. I mean, what would you take that as? LOL

None fit and none were "stellar." Mom offered to take Daughter shopping and Dad had a hissy fit because Daughter didn't pick from the 3 dresses he scounged up. What am I missing? Why was it ok for Dad to offer 3 dresses, but Mom couldn't offer any? If the point was for Daughter to find a dress she likes (why Dad had 3?) than whats the big deal?


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missing my point

The deal is, how hard would it have been for mom to pick up the phone and say "Dad, D has come home with three dresses you obtained for her, and we appreciate the effort. Sadly though, it appears none of them seem to fit just right. Can you fill me in on these? Did SD as you to order a large in the one purchased online, or was this dress a surprise for her? I'd like to make sure SD has a dress she is comfortable in for her first dance, but I certainly don't want to diminish your efforts. Can you give me the back story?"

As was previously said, we don't know what role SD played in these 3 dresses. Certainly, if mom indicated she didn't like them SD isn't going to jump up saying "I asked dad to order me a large in this." Perhaps dad did pull them up from Goodwill. Maybe he doesn't care. The point is, WE DON'T KNOW. Hell, mom may not even know. That's the point. If you bought a dress and then your daughter's dad went out and bought her a new one without talking to you because he didn't feel it 'right', how would you feel?

Mom didn't stand up for herself, and she didn't stand up for her daughter. She went out quietly and undid what dad did without teaching D to address her problems head on. Yet she wants her to be strong and stand up to dad? Why should D, if mom won't??


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RE: The homecoming dress

I'm still not seeing it. Sounds like sour grapes to me. Dad wouldn't have cared if Daughter picked one of the friends dresses, so obviously buying one for her wasn't the deal. It was because she didn't pick one of his dresses lol.

If my daughter went to her Dads house with three dresses to try on and pick one out but then came home with one he bought her, I dont see the big deal at all. In fact, I think the whole thing would be pretty silly.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Sylviatexas, my last response was to KKNY. I didn't realize until afterward that it followed directly behind your response, or I would have addressed her specifically. However, your response to me makes absolutely no sense and is not at all analogical of my statement. Really weird to me because I normally clap at your responses and completely agree. I have no idea where that one came from. You're right, there's nothing logical about your example, but clearly what I stated is what happened. It's in the story that reads, to summarize, dad and stepmom bought DD a dress and borrowed two others. Mom went out and bought DD a dress, thereby blowing off dad's investment and efforts. Dad became angry and felt disrespected, so he punished DD for dismissing his efforts not knowing that mom is the one who did it and dragged his daughter into it too, instead of teaching her daughter a more considerate and respectful way of dealing with sticky situations like this one. Where did I dream any of that for you to compare the actual events to dad smacking DD, mom taking him to task for it, him getting angry, and mom being the one at fault? Why do you suggest dad trying to accommodate his daughter's needs for the dance that he some way insulted and assaulted her?


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RE: The homecoming dress

No, thermo, the point was it was wrong of Dad to take it out on it D if he was mad at what mom did. You chose to ignore that basic principal just as you chose to ignore the extremely high liklihood that dad and sm just dont care -- or think that a minimal effort is the endall and beall.


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RE: The homecoming dress

"you chose to ignore the extremely high liklihood that dad and sm just dont care"

There is certainly some evidence to support this belief -- but to strongly insist that this is Obviously the case? When there's also evidence (3 different dresses!) to support the opposite belief? But even if Dad and StepMom did almost nothing, it's still polite to acknowledge their efforts before trashing them.

If DD had really hated any of the three dresses, do you think she'd have even brought it to Mom's to model? Not to mention "fit well" is a pretty subjective standard also. Sure, a strapless dress that's too big is clearly too big! But if it has straps to hold it up, does the bust really need to be tight to be right? If the style is more trim and tailored, does it be close-fitting to be stellar since DD's figure is trim? There's a lot of room between close-fitting and 'potato sack.'


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RE: The homecoming dress

And do you know that SD didnt say anything along those lines, sweeby, no you dont. In fact DD did show pics to mom, so she did bring the situation to mom's attention. We dont know what was going on in her mind. Was it -- OH god help me, or these dresses look great. Or was it somewhere in the middle, as in Oh god I dont know what I'm doing.

Theres no reason to assume the worst about SD and mom. Dad and SM are supposed to be adults, and the fact that they clearly overreacted shows me they're not. And looking at the time line, this wasnt dad and sm find out and react quickly -- they had all week to think about and calm down. I have found in situations where I have time to figure out a course of action it goes better -- sometimes you dont have that luxury.

At most dad should have said, we took a lot of time on them (right), and next time, just go with your mom.

Again, I constantly see SMs here complaining about when mom puts kid in appropriate clothing.


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type

oops meant when mom puts kid in inappropriate clothing. I forgot, SMs perogative.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Wow, I was busy yesterday and didn't get back to read the responses. Only having a few minutes before work this morning I'll try to shed a little more light. When she brought the 3 dresses home, I was careful not to insult any of them incase she loved one, I only made the suggestion that she might find a better fit by trying them on in a store. They didn't have zippers, just elastic around the back that was loose and saggy.
NORMALLY her Dad and I get along very well.
Some of you may remember her SM is the one with no boundries, she had my DD shaving her legs at 9, had her lip waxed at 12, has felt free to cut my DD's hair. I don't like that she doesn't respect that DD has a mom (literally she makes her CD's and writes "for little girl, love, mommy" all over them) but I don't really make a big deal of any of it. I kind of suspect that might be what their problem is with this situation that I, her actual mom, handled a milestone before SM could take it away. It's the only explanation that makes even a little sense to me.
I really don't understand how they thought it would be ok to bring home 3 dresses and say chose A,B, or C. I just think it's SO WEIRD! Doesn't every HS girl go to the mall and try on their own dress?

I still really want to call and take it up with him. DD asked me not to, I just really want to ask him what he's thinking!


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RE: The homecoming dress

Mom of 2.5, can you clarify who chose the online dress?

Did dad or SM find it and order it without consulting DD?

Or did DD help pick it out?


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Overstepping SM

No, I didnt remember. I can only speculate they bought the dresses because they wanted to beat you to the punch. There are much more serious issues here. My guess is they will get worse with pyshco SM. Try to communicate with Dad but I can not reiterate strong enough to start investigating rules for college and child support. I would not be shocked if at some point Dad and SM decide SD is ingrate and wont pay for a thing. Good luck.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Mom of 2.5, I really think you should call your ex. If you two have always gotten along ok, then talk to him and see what is really going on here. Also, not to "disbelieve" your DD, but my own kids sometimes "exagerrate" about what went on at a friend's house or at school and only when I ask them "oh really, is that how it really happened?!" then they will come out with the "real" story. If your ex took away her phone and sent her to bed early, I think it's entirely possible that there was more going on with that. (ie.backtalk, did not do homework, etc..etc..we all know how our kids can be, at least I know how mine can be, they are great but they know how to "push the buttons!!") Also, if they DID send her to bed early and take away her phone because she didn't like the dresses they picked and chose a different one, I would have a dialogue with your ex asking him to think more about the "punishment fitting the crime" !! I also think that it's a bit "weird" that your DD asked you not to call and take it up with your ex. Does she not want you two to talk and clear the air and get rid of any misunderstandings? Usually, kids WANT their parents to get along, even if they are divorced unless it suits their purpose to have the parents at odds...food for thought I guess...!!


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SM a problem

Shannon and LH,

Did you two just choose not to read about SM shaving kids legs at 9 etc etc? Things that are physical evidence of?? That SM has no concept of appropriate behaivor. If mom did these things, wouldnt this group be all over her.

Momof2.5 -- there are some people here who evidently think being a SM is a license to do whatever. I really really think you should see document all, and see a lawyer.


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boundaries

I started shaving my legs when I was 10. I started my period at the end of 3rd grade, when I was 9.

I agree, 9-10 is VERY early, and I TOTALLY think it is a mom/dad decision. SM obviously has boundary issues and maybe doesn't respect OP as "mom." It was wrong of her to allow her SD to shave, etc. without bio-parent's express permission.

BUT I think it's evident she does care about her SD. She wouldn't be making her CDs, etc. if she didn't. At leadt I don't think so.

Again, this is not to say that she hasn't crossed the line in allowing her SD to do things that really should be a bio-parent's call.

But this is neither here nor there. I just want to know how it came about that dad or SM ordered this particular dress.

Did DD ask them to? And they obliged, thinking she loved it? And then they were shocked/hurt when she discarded it and went shopping for a new one?

Or did they order this online dress without consulting her and said "tough, this is what you're wearing."

THAT is a key factor here IMO.


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RE: The homecoming dress

KKNY, an example that you are the one who keeps missing things. I stated in response to your "cheap" allegation "It seems kind of lazy and unconcerned that they purchased a dress of this kind online . . ." That's just one example and there are numerous others. The things you keep harping on are background factors. They are not the point of the story and have nothing to do with what mom of 2.5 asked of us. You point out that dad overreacted. Yes he did. But you don't seem to understand he mistakenly took it out on DD, not realizing mom was the one behind it, so he did not "take it out on it D if he was mad at what mom did". He wasn't angry with mom. He didn't know to be angry with mom. All he could see is what youngsters normally do, which is to play one parent against the other. He had every reason to think that is what she did and was, thereby, being extremely inconsiderate and taking him and his wife for granted. He had every reason to think the fourth dress was of DD's prompting. That is what I and a couple others keep trying to express to mom of 2.5, that she is the one who caused the ill feelings and explosion. She is the one who got DD in trouble, instead of making the occasion an opportunity to teach DD how to handle herself, be considerate of others, and be proactive in delicate situations. All it took was a phone call to dad in advance.

Something else is that dad needed to understand the full brevity and that sometimes more effort, if not full and direct attention need be applied to the occasion. As I said before, one of the lessons DD has learned is to treat special occasions as special. She has also learned some of the excitement and preparation that goes into them. She has learned her *firsts* are milestones that do and should mean a lot to a girl. Mom of 2.5 just taught her daughter all those valuable lessons. That's the reason I'm glad she took DD shopping. But Mom of 2.5 missed an opportunity to teach those lessons to dad. A man in a situation like this will believe what he's told. In this case, he considered it nothing more than stepmom indicated to him with the "trying on 20 dresses" remark. He took his lead from that kind of attitude. Mom of 2.5 could have shown him it means more to a girl. It means more to his daughter. It only took a phone call.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Mom2.5, I'm with you lol. I think the goal should be for Daughter to find a dress she loves. I don't even really buy the online thing because they wouldn't be mad if she had picked one of the borrowed dresses, one they hadn't bought but provided. Its clearly a power struggle, I wouldn't sweat it.

This is one of those times that I see the outcome being very minor in importance to the parent and of high importance to the child.


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huh?

I still really want to call and take it up with him. DD asked me not to, I just really want to ask him what he's thinking!

You're still not getting it.


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RE: The homecoming dress

kkny, I am truly sorry to hear that you are having a bad week.


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RE: The homecoming dress

LH, I dont see the CDs as evidence of love. The SM is so perverted, not just the shaving, but the waxing etc. The CDs with that label, love mom are ALL ABOUT ME.

Thermometer - Ok, we've all told mom to apologize or grovel. Could you try to look at the whole picture with phsyco/controlling SM and Dad.

And OP, I am not kidding physco SM and dad will very likely decide your D is an ingrate. They are control freaks. TALK TO A LAYWER. D IS AT AN AGE WHERE SHE CAN HAVE SOME SAY ON VISITATION, AND THIS SITUATION IS LIKELY TO GET WORSE. You may want to get D counseling in how to deal with physco SM.


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RE: The homecoming dress

"Mom2.5, I'm with you lol. I think the goal should be for Daughter to find a dress she loves"

Nivea, I totally agree. I think EVERYONE agrees with that fact.

I think the question is did dad not realize that DD didn't love the dresses? Did DD tell dad she wasn't thrilled w/the dress? In fact, one of my original questions was DD's opinion swayed by her MOM'S opinion? OP refered to one of the dresses as "drab and gray." That may be the case, but did DD think so? Or was she happy with the purchased dress UNTIL she realized her mom wasn't thrilled?

I am wondering--and please do not take offense to this OP b/c I don't mean it in a bad way--if OP was upset/threatened that SM had had a hand in helping pick out a special dress for DD's first dance. Maybe OP unknowingly/subconsciously didn't want to like the dress b/c SHE (understandably!) wanted to share the experience of dress shopping w/her DD. I could totally understand if that were the case, of course, but if so, I think OP should have called Dad herself and said "hey, I appreciate you guys buying her a dress, but you know, this is a mother/daughter experience and I hope you don't mind that I am going to take DD shopping for one."


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RE: The homecoming dress

Thermometer, thats kind of a strange way to approach it to me. They are divorced, Stepmom is his wife. Mom is his exwife. Why should she have to do something so marriage like? If he didn't care enough in the first place, why is it her responsibility to enlighten him? They got divorced for a reason. Wouldnt that be SM's responsibility? We hear all the time about how Mom still calls Dads house complaining about stuff.

As OP explained, there are boundary issues with Stepmom. I'd say so when you have an actively involved Mom that wants (and has the money, shock and horror!) to go dress shopping for the first dance and Dad/SM try to get it in first and then complain that Daughter didn't like the potato sack dresses without actually taking her shopping. What's funny to me that even after OP's update is that no one can believe that a SM can actually have boundary issues.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Well, no, not every HS girl gets to go to the Mall and try on dresses, but if we could wave a magic wand and make child/teen years perfect and equal for all girls from all situations and walks of life, yeah, I wish all girls could have the chance. But that's besides the point, as obvivously your daughter does and did have that chance and I'm glad she got it.

Bet Dad did not really have much to do with the 3 dresses at all now that you've explained a bit more. My guess is SM did most the 'effort' (know nothing about SM's taste, lifestyle so SM really might have thought what she provided was just dandy). But it's just common sense to me that Dad and Mom could have picked up the phone and communicated 'hey, big night for the daughter, how are we going to handle it'?

Pfft. Fix it with Dad. Your daughter while appreciating all their efforts and time spent chose to continue searching for additional options, her big special first in HS. Surely Dad can/will understand and remind him that any future events that require such special attention will be discussed first between Mom and Dad so hurt feelings don't happen again and chance ruining what should be a special and happy night out for daughter.

I hope she has a great time and if by chance she does decide to wear the 'drab gray', help her to absolutely sparkle and glow in it and turn the plain into spectacular.



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More on the dress

Love, -- if mom did this feel this way, the physcho SM brough it on herself. And dad deserves blame too for this situation. But if all mom wanted to do was replace dad and phycho SM dress, she wouldnt have had to go shopping all day, would she now?

Shannon, I am having a great day. Its OP's D I feel sorry for.

I stand by my advice, grovel (LHs words are fine), see if you can sit down and talk to DH without pyscho SM there, and then see an attorney.


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RE:more

Love, the way I read it was that Daughter hadn't picked out one dress yet. She was still deciding between the 3, thats why she brought them home to Mom. I'd say it would be different had Daughter picked one dress to buy and then brought it home to Mom and changed her mind...then yes, Mom owes Dad a courtesy call then. The way this went down, nah.Sounds like everyone was being lazy but still wanted kudos. Its one of the main stepkid themes I read, I did x,y,z and they don't appreciate it! Especially when x,y,z wasn't so great to begin with...but shhh, you're not supposed to say that! Then stepkid is an entitled brat.

And yep, this is one of those things I went through as a teenager. My Mom was far too sick by the time first dances came around, so I was either stuck with borrowed dresses (never fit) or anything cheap *I* could afford. I know this mentality, they offered her three so she should just be grateful. And then Dad/SM's overreaction for the punishment is what sealed the deal for me. All along this was less about getting Daughter a dress that she loved, it was making sure she wore one they provided. Pretty sick parenting if you ask me.


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reply

"All along this was less about getting Daughter a dress that she loved, it was making sure she wore one they provided. Pretty sick parenting if you ask me."

But again, I reiterate, we don't know that DD expressed to dad that she wasn't happy with any of the choices. Maybe HE thought she loved them. If that's the case, and he was totally caught off guard when he heard that mom took her shopping, I can understand he'd be hurt and irritated.

Did DD say to dad "you know what, I don't really LOVE any of these dresses" and he said "too bad, you get what you get." ????

Or did DD say "thank you so much, Dad, this dress I picked out online is gorgeous" and then went to mom and changed her mind.

Two different scenarios that affect my opinion on this whole matter.


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assumptions

"Dad/SM try to get it in first"

Now, now. We don't know that!

Maybe DD ASKED her dad or SM to buy her a dress.


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RE: The homecoming dress

"NORMALLY her Dad and I get along very well."

- That's good. So in the interests of keeping that good relationship, I'd suggest you call him to clear the air. Admit that getting DD another dress was your idea and explain why -- fit and milestone. If DD was a reluctant participant, get her off the hook.

"Some of you may remember her SM is the one with no boundries, she had my DD shaving her legs at 9, had her lip waxed at 12, has felt free to cut my DD's hair."

- Again, since you and Dad generally get along, I'd suggest you clarify your position on boundary issues. Use male examples, like coaching son's Little League, teaching son how to throw a football, etc. State your boundaries explicitly, and ask him to speak to his wife about respecting those boundaries. It's a fair and reasonable request that, if she honors it, will ensure a more harmonious relationship between you and her. (I had to have that conversation with my son's StepMom, and am pleased to say that once we resolved that issue, we have been able to become friends and work together well for DS's benefit.)

"I don't like that she doesn't respect that DD has a mom(literally she makes her CD's and writes "for little girl, love, mommy" all over them)"

- Try not to read intent into her actions. It could be she is just expressing love in a way you're not comfortable with. Inferring her intent as disrespecting you is bound to make you angry and resentful, when that may not be her intentions at all.

"I kind of suspect that might be what their problem is with this situation that I, her actual mom, handled a milestone before SM could take it away."

- I don't mean this argumentatively, but from your original post, it sounded more like they handled this milestone first, then you went to some lengths to take it back.

It sounds to me like you perceive a Turf War. Having gone through one and come out the other side, let me strongly urge a 'negotiated truce' rather than an escalation. (KKNY - I'm NOT suggesting a grovel.) Your position as Mom is strong and valid. If you're an involved Mom (and I've seen no indication otherwise), then those special 'mother-daughter' moments are rightfully yours, just as those special 'father-daughter' moments are rightfully his. You've indicated he's a reasonable guy -- He should be able to understand and respect your position. Ask him to do just that.


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sweeby

"If you're an involved Mom (and I've seen no indication otherwise), then those special 'mother-daughter' moments are rightfully yours, just as those special 'father-daughter' moments are rightfully his. You've indicated he's a reasonable guy -- He should be able to understand and respect your position. Ask him to do just that. "

Applause!


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RE: love

Love, honestly maybe a bit of my sexism is coming out...but when Dad/SM do the dress thing first (and apparently sloppy, signaling to me it was a rush job) they are trying to get it in first. What Mom isn't going to want to do this with their own Daughter? Wouldn't it be pretty obvious that the Mom is going to want to have a hand in it? And with OP's update about the CD's....I'm going to think SM's a pretty weird person.

Yeah, I could see the online dress being a bit sticky IF that was the one Daughter took home to Mom already picked out. Dad/SM knew when she took the 3 that there wasn't a clear winner in there. Not that big of a deal imo, until Mom provided the dress shopping experience then they hit the roof.

Sweeby's last post of advice was pretty good. Although I don't think OP was considering this a turf war, she was doing what any Mom would do for their girls first dance.


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Negotiated truce not likely with nutjob

Love, the problem is apparently SM is unreasonable. And give me a break, any SM who signs "mom" to a SD with an involved mom is clearly overstepping. Not to mention dereanged with the shaving, waxing etc.

Which is why I emphasize, a negotated truce is not too likely with a nutjob. So of course try. But OP, cover your backside. Document the shaving, waxing etc. Talk to dad. Dcoument conversation. See lawyer.


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RE: The homecoming dress

psst, kkny, I've gotta ask. Do you really think that it's perverted/deranged for a 9 to 10 year old to have shaved legs? Or is your objection because in this case SM took it upon herself to do it?

I ran into my own bitty one age 9 1/2 this summer asking me about shaving her legs. She is blonde and in the summer with her natural olive skin tones she tans super well even with tons of skincare lotions. She swam lots this year and in the sun her little leg hair really 'popped' in the light. She thought nothing of it until another little girl who she does not get along well with started teasing her. Now daughter is convinced her legs look like a huge pimple blemish on the tip of her nose would to a HS girl on Prom Night.

While I agree I'd be livid if another woman took it upon herself to shave my daughter's legs--really I can't imagine a SM taking it upon herself to do such a thing--I'm not getting what appears to be your strong anti-anti against the idea that some girls might shave at that age period.

Sorry, I know it's off topic, but you've mentioned it rather 'loudly' several times. And no, I have no intentions of letting bitty one take a razor to herself, but I am toying with shave gel wash away. I find it a personal issue between bitty and me and not an attempt of perversion/derangement.


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RE: The homecoming dress

If he didn't care enough in the first place, why is it her responsibility to enlighten him? They got divorced for a reason.

Yes, your sexism is showing LOL. It's her responsibility because these kinds of thing go right over most men's heads. Most men have no idea of a girl's milestones. If it isn't graduation or wedding, it doesn't mean much to them. Why? Because he's not a girl. It's not her first wet dream. It's not her first suped up car. If he can at all relate to and understand the importance of a girl's experiences and how she feels about them, he first has to know what they are. This is prime example that he didn't know and took his cues from sm. He had no idea the fuss that should be made - the big deal that mom made by taking her daughter shopping. You reduce his intentions and lack of knowledge to not giving a darn, but he only needed to be enlightened.

As OP explained, there are boundary issues with Stepmom. I'd say so when you have an actively involved Mom that wants (and has the money, shock and horror!) to go dress shopping for the first dance and Dad/SM try to get it in first and then complain that Daughter didn't like the potato sack dresses without actually taking her shopping. What's funny to me that even after OP's update is that no one can believe that a SM can actually have boundary issues.

Why do you make that (and so many other) assumptions? They didn't wake up one morning from a dream that homecoming was approaching. DD was at their house and told them it was coming up and that she needed a dress. Even if they asked if she needed a dress, she did confirm and did so without consulting mom about it. Would they, either of them, have gotten DD a dress, much less three, had they not known homecoming was approaching? Had they no reason to think she needed a dress for the occasion? I'm wondering why mom of 2.5 didn't answer about the purchased dress that she was asked so many times. You are suggesting they tried to be beat mom to it, but that's not what happened. DD told them. By your standard, mom of 2.5 can expect DD to arrive home with her wedding dress next week. You place way too much blame on them. Yes, there are boundary issues. I don't disagree. But that also is still just background factors. Mom caused the problem and got DD into trouble.


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RE: The homecoming dress

JMT, it is combination of age and SM and invovled mom. If no mom involved, and SD hasnt been taking care of hygiene (no evidence of that here) and Dad feels uncomfortable talking to SD about hygenie matters, then it may not be inapprorpiate for SM to talk to SD. It is the entire situation that is inappropriate. Everyone here DEMANDS that stepkids show respect to SM. It is difficult for a child to manage respect with saying no leave me alone. That is why dad has to get more invovled and tell SM you must let the mom deal with these things.

Thermometer, OP said she had a few minutes before she went to work and must have been overwhelmed about with. She may not have known whether or to what extent D was invovled in the one dress puchase. Yes I assume D told her dad and/or SM re homecoming, and I assume mom will coach her going forward not to tell Dad first. Sad state of affairs.


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RE: The homecoming dress

In trying to figure out why they are SO angry, I asked DD how SM came to order the dress online, did she ASK her to? because then I could understand them being upset. DD says they had been looking at dress styles online (just as we had done) and SM went ahead and ordered one the next day after she'd come home. DD says she didn't KNOW SM was going to order one. I really don't have a problem with them buying her a dress at all, or even having borrowed one. I just wasn't comfortable watching her squirm in it and tug at it, constantly pulling it up. Dad and SM buy her clothes often, honestly, probably more often than I do. She's allowed to wear them between both homes freely, clothing isn't usually an issue. DD claims to not understand at all why they are making such a big fuss about this beside the fact that when I bought her the purple dress she didn't TELL them (by phone or text) she'd gotten a different dress. Friday was the first time she'd been with them, and when it came up they were really angry.

I guess SM has some other stressers in her life right now that could be contributing to this reaction. Yesterday afternoon her Dad called her afterschool, and basically said "you broke it you fix it" he expects her to apologize to her SM. DD doesn't really know what for, or what to say.


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RE: The homecoming dress

The SM is so perverted, not just the shaving, but the waxing etc."

I agree that it's way over the boundary line, but I wouldn't go so far as to consider it perverted. Out of bounds? Absolutely! But - let's consider why SM may have taken it upon herself to do / help with the hair issues:

- DD thought she had hairy legs and asked SM to let her shave them. Either the idea just happened while at Dad's house, or DD knew Mom would say 'No' so went around her. Sounds kinds likely...

- SM thought DD had hairy legs. It's unusual at 9, but certainly not unheard of. Many girls are teased mercilessly about their hairy legs until they begin shaving, and if this happened to SM or SM thought it might happen to DD, then offering to help her shave (while out of bounds) would have been an act of kindness.

- DD asked and SM thought it would be 'harmless' and a kind of 'bonding' thing. Something along the lines of a manicure. She's trying to forge a motherly bond with DD, and genuinely believes doing motherly things with her will help that develop.

- OR, the 'evil plot' theory. SM set out to deliberately undermine, disrespect and antagonize Mom by 'stealing her firsts'. Possible? Sure. Likely? I'm inclined to believe not.


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RE: The homecoming dress

"Yes, your sexism is showing LOL. It's her responsibility because these kinds of thing go right over most men's heads. Most men have no idea of a girl's milestones. If it isn't graduation or wedding, it doesn't mean much to them. Why? Because he's not a girl. It's not her first wet dream. It's not her first suped up car. If he can at all relate to and understand the importance of a girl's experiences and how she feels about them, he first has to know what they are. This is prime example that he didn't know and took his cues from sm. He had no idea the fuss that should be made - the big deal that mom made by taking her daughter shopping. You reduce his intentions and lack of knowledge to not giving a darn, but he only needed to be enlightened."

Haha, I knew it was peeking out from some where :) I'll *try* to shove it back in, no promises lol.

Eh, see the problem I have with that is that it is now SMs job. I dont see anyone welcoming Mom's input into everything a Dad should be enlightened upon concerning teenage girls when there is a divorce. In fact, I think SM's here would call that ~control~.

"Why do you make that (and so many other) assumptions? They didn't wake up one morning from a dream that homecoming was approaching. DD was at their house and told them it was coming up and that she needed a dress. Even if they asked if she needed a dress, she did confirm and did so without consulting mom about it. Would they, either of them, have gotten DD a dress, much less three, had they not known homecoming was approaching? Had they no reason to think she needed a dress for the occasion? I'm wondering why mom of 2.5 didn't answer about the purchased dress that she was asked so many times. You are suggesting they tried to be beat mom to it, but that's not what happened. DD told them. By your standard, mom of 2.5 can expect DD to arrive home with her wedding dress next week. You place way too much blame on them. Yes, there are boundary issues. I don't disagree. But that also is still just background factors. Mom caused the problem and got DD into trouble."

I already explained why I assumed that, maybe OP will enlighten us. I think it is pretty clear when someone does a rush job, they don't care and just trying to get it done. And they are not going to care if someone fixes it for them, unless they are trying to control the situation.

Again if Dad/SM didn't care what dress she picked out from the 3 dresses, but are going to get their panties in a wad about more options....it's pretty clear they just want one of their dresses worn. Less to do with Daughter, more to do with them. BAD parenting in my book.


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More on dress and psycho SM

Sweeby, then SM is just an idiot. Can't you tell the differnce between a manicure and shaving, etc? If some girl not yours asked you, wouldnt you say ASK YOUR MOM. Oh wait, pyscho SM insists she is the mom.

Momof2.5 -- what other stresses does imbelice SM have? She obviously doesnt care about others.

Also, I think you should speak to dad as others have suggested. As to you broke it, you fix it. Dad has poor communication skills. I feel so sorry for your D.

And now we see that D had no input in SM buying dress. What lunatic does what she did, buys dress for kid, without kid sitting right beside her and double checking everyhting.


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SM overstepping

And gee, so thermometer, now we know about the dress buying and SM did it on her own. Gee any liklihood that if she said to D lets sit down on computer and actually BUY the dress, D would have said I want to talk to my mom (of course SM would have thought she was talking to her). OK they did look at dresses -- but from what OP says, no committment to buy dress.

Would you care to revise your statements. Here we have it. Imbelic/overstepping SM buys daughter dress on her own.

My rule on gifts is yes, be pleasant and accept, but you are under NO obligation to wear, eat drink what someone gives you. I think MOM needs to talk to dad and explain this to him.


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RE: The homecoming dress

---"when I bought her the purple dress she didn't TELL them (by phone or text) she'd gotten a different dress"---

But they knew she was looking --"The next weekend, my mom and I took her out to try on dresses. She sent her Dad a pic and he got all upset texting her "why are you trying on dresses, we went out of our way to get you a dress, I'm done your Mom can do it all." --- and Dad clearly told her 'your Mom can do it all'. Yet when Mom did ,girl is punished (SM won't talk to her, Dad sends her to bed early and takes phone away).

Talk about double messages.

SM had no place in ordering dress online without agreement that this was the dress girl actually wanted. Then gets mad when Mom takes girl shopping. Then Dad gets mad when shopping pics arrive via text and tells daughter to let Mom 'take care of it all'. Then daughter gets punished and now daughter is suppose to say 'I'm sorry' to SM?

What a circus. Poor girl can't win for losing and can't lose for winning. SM caused her own upset here and Dad is not helping the situation by sending double messages to the girl.


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So now that everyone has had their questions answered

Ok, so now that I think everyone has had their questions ansered re what actually happened, can we recap advice. I'ld particularly like to hear from Thermometer.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Posted by mom_of_2.5 (My Page) on Fri, Jan 30, 09 at 23:40

"In my case, my ex husbands wife was a child when him and I were ruining our marriage. I blame her for nothing. I get upset when she oversteps her boundaries as a SM, but really 98% of the time she's like celery to me. Nothing stands out about celery, it's just there."

---------------------------------------------------------

Mom_of_2.5, I found this post that you made way back when :) Sounds like the SM is very young/immature. Did she maybe think she was going to "surprise" your DD with a dress she ordered online? That doesn't make it right, but maybe that's what she was thinking...Sorry your DD is being told to "apologize", that's not right at all and it sounds like a big misunderstanding that just needs some help from you to rectify. I know that with my Skids, I often have had to do this with their BM, to "smooth things" over for them, because we are the adults and they are the kids.

The focus needs to be brought back to the Dance and all the Fun your DD is going to have, there is way too much drama for that poor young girl in all of this!! Maybe if you sit down with your ex and discuss and then bring the SM into the discussion, they will understand what this is doing to your poor DD and where this is all going. This is SUPPOSED to be a happy, fun, exciting time for your DD, and instead it's turning into a "drama-rama" and it really doesn't need to be...:)


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RE: The homecoming dress

"The focus needs to be brought back to the Dance and all the Fun your DD is going to have, there is way too much drama for that poor young girl in all of this!! Maybe if you sit down with your ex and discuss and then bring the SM into the discussion, they will understand what this is doing to your poor DD and where this is all going. This is SUPPOSED to be a happy, fun, exciting time for your DD, and instead it's turning into a "drama-rama" and it really doesn't need to be...:)"

That is so true. It sounds like mom just wants her D to have a good time. I think mom should call dad and try to recap this. Sounds to me that dad is only concerned with SMs feelings. D may not be able to express herself. Of course it is difficult thing to do with an overbearing SM.


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RE: The homecoming dress

You wouldn't have had to ask, KKNY, had I not washed my hands and given up. Mom of 2.5 is in the dark and allowing DD to make her think that she also is in the dark. But she's not. If not out and out lying, DD is deliberately misleading her mother. Perhaps to spare her feelings. Perhaps to keep her mother from knowing she shares and enjoys a relationship with her stepmother. DD told them everything. DD picked out a dress. It is convenient for her to say she had no idea sm was going to purchase the dress. Maybe because there is a little truth in it, like she didn't know sm would buy it that particular day, that DD thinks she can get away with claiming ignorance. I didn't want to say any of this because it's all pure conjecture, but it's true. Since you ask, there it is. If DD were asked in front of dad and sm, you'd find out it is all true. Mom of 2.5 is in the dark. DD surely is not. She gave them every indication the dance was coming up. She gave them every indication she wanted a dress for the occasion. She gave them every indication she wanted the dress she saw online. She knows exactly why sm is upset with her and why dad told her to fix it. The reason is that she picked out that dress. Still, it's all background factors. Mom of 2.5 can let her daughter get away with this if she wants to. Nothing she has written makes me believe she really understands what is going on here or her own role in making it all worse, which is the reason I gave up. Again, you asked so there it is. Makes no difference at all though. Mom was the one in the wrong, the results of which she could have prevented with a phone call. She still can still make that call to get a better understanding, smooth things over, and make her daughter understand you don't treat people this way.


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RE: The homecoming dress

SM's grandfather is terminally ill, and probably won't last a couple more weeks. I understand that's a diffcult time, I just think she needs to get a grip on how much of her emotion is REALLY aimed at my daughter.

Knowing how upset my DD is, I told her if she wanted to smooth things over, she could apologize without really accepting blame. I told her, if I were in her shoes, I'd probably say something like "I'm really sorry you're so upset about the dress, it wasn't my intention to make you angry" and that SM would have the choice to continue being angry or to let it go. If she continues to be angry, it's her own choice. Either way, I would expect this issue to resolve itself once the dance has come and gone.


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Thermometer

Thermometer -- Do you know these people IRL? My D tells me plenty of times she is invited to a dance. We may even shop. But knowing teenage girls, I would never never buy something without her sitting right beside me, if online. I would double check size chart and probably google to see if sizes run big or small. Would you rather daughter just not tell dad about any social events -- that is what is likely to happen.

Any other opinions?

Full disclaimer -- I do not know OP in real life. But I think she is sane and SM nuts and thermometer off base.


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Mom

Mom - that would be big of you and your DD. I would still talk to dad later, and say the truth, that this wasnt DDs fault, but to avoid these things in the future, you and DH should coordinate, and since these things just tend to upset SM, she should not be put in the middle.

As DD gets older, she will be spending more time at school and activities. Make certain school understands you are the mom and SM is not the mom. Make certain teachers know. SM does not have the stability or maturity to be mom of teen.

Good luck!!!


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RE: The homecoming dress

Yes, she is nuts and I'm off base if you insist. Why haven't you wondered why on earth mom of 2.5 has not called dad by now to get to the bottom of this? Based on her last post, she's throwing daughter under the bus and teaching her to take responsibility for having done nothing. DD is perfectly innocent but is to apologize because sm is nuts and I am off base.

????????????????????????????????


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RE: The homecoming dress

Thermometer, its Wednesday, sounds like she picked her D up Sunday night and thats when she found about ruckus. Sounds like she actully wanted advice. D is with her this week. Sounds to me that mom wants to deal with this in careful and fair way, unlike jump off the handle dad and SM.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Open and honest communication between all of the parents (and I'm including StepMom in here) is the key toward resolving this issue and preventing future ones. If the adults don't communicate, the kids will manipulate or twist things, or sometimes (like this time) get caught in the middle.

If StepMom truly is 'celery' (love that Mom of 2.5) and all that young, then she's more likely to be clueless, inept or misguided than malicious. Not pleasant, but not evil or psycho either.

I'm inclined to go along with Thermometer's interpretations of events. DD indicated 'this' dress online was the one she liked and SM ordered it "the next day after she'd come home." Why wait to order until 'after she got home' if not to confirm with DD "This is the one, right?" That would have been DD's chance to say -- "Wait - I'm not sure." or "I'd like to go to the mall with Mom."

So yeah, I suspect NONE of the adults involved have all of the facts here...

Bottom line, my advice doesn't really change:

- Call Dad (and StepMom?) to clear the air. Admit that getting DD another dress was your idea and explain why -- fit and milestone. If you can bring yourself to admit it, acknowledge your 'turf' issues and use it to segue into:

- State your boundaries explicitly (write them down?), and ask that they be respected. If you think StepMom can be civilized, talk to them both at once. Give her a few 'bonding moments' with DD so they can develop a good relationship - it's best for DD.

- Pledge to try to always give them the benefit of the doubt and ask them to do the same for you. Try not to read intent into his/her/your actions.

- And always ask for the backstory, because with kids, there always is one...


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RE: The homecoming dress

"In trying to figure out why they are SO angry"

They are so angry because when you are dealing with an emotional vampire, *everyone* and *everything* is supposed to be about them. Daughter took the dress option away from SM. Dad (who apparently didn't care one way or the other) now has to deal with SM at home. He is MAD because SM is MAD and when an emotional vampire gets MAD, everyone pays. Dad is MAD that Daughter put him in this position.

BTDT and I can give your daughter the t-shirt. Living with this type of person is not easy, whether they are a Mom/Dad/Stepmom/Stepdad/Brother/Sister.....everyone around them walks on eggshells. Family starts communicating passive-aggressively because they have no other options. Afterall, the only problems in the family are problems the vampire can see.

I think its time you start teaching Daughter how to deal with difficult people. Show her how to smooth the waters but not enable bad behavior. Show her healthy boundaries and ways to preserve hers. It will come in handy later in life but really stinks for her having to learn now.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Uh, no, Thermometer. My DD asked me NOT to talk to her Dad because she doesn't want the backlash of
"why did you tell your mom blah blah blah" And she doesn't want her Dad and I to fight. I'm not throwing her under the bus, I am keeping her trust. I'm not telling her to say she's sorry for doing anything, I'm telling her it's okay to say she's sorry the situation exists, and she is. She feels badly and doesn't want to hurt her SM's feelings. I don't see anything wrong with saying "I'm sorry you feel that way".


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RE: The homecoming dress

--"SM went ahead and ordered one the next day after she'd come home. DD says she didn't KNOW SM was going to order one".---

I took this to say SM ordered the dress she and SD had been viewing AFTER SD had left for Mom's house. Otherwise, next sentence "didn't know SM was going to order one" would make no sense. If SD was at SM's and 'home' while order being placed, SD would know it was being immediately ordered.


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Watch your back

Sweeby, your advice would be right on with rational people, but the problem is SM is not entirely rationale and Dad caves in to her. So momof 2.5, I think you can go with Sweebys advice AS TO WHAT TO SAY, but WATCH YOUR BACK AND YOUR D'S BACK. You can say whatever you want, but do not trust these people. SMs problems may be started by her youth and her inexperience and exacerbated by her GF illness, but that doesnt make her any less dangerous. Nivea has had to live with a younger narcisstic SM, and it only got worse as she got older.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Mom of 2.5, I hardly know anything else to say here, so I'll leave you and KKNY to keep demonizing sm as if it has anything to do with anything because it doesn't. You even acknowledge that they buy lots of DD's clothes, even more than you do. That confirms everything I have said about why that dress was purchased and others were acquired. She was not overstepping her bounds, whether she has in the past had boundary issues or not. They were doing what they normally do and what DD asked of them as she normally does. You confirm everything I have said about DD and the wool she is pulling over your eyes. As with so much concerning this story, you are wrong to think you're not throwing her under the bus. You absolutely are. You'd be obliged to keep DD's confidence were you not involved, as I can see this happened at dad's house and should stay there. But you ARE involved. Not only are you involved, but you don't know what transpired and are trying to advise your daughter through it, while not bothering to find out. You caused your daughter to get in trouble with her dad and sm and are now telling her to simply apologize so it all goes away, and you don't have to accept any responsibility and don't have to explain anything, not to her and not to her dad. You refuse to acknowledge me and others saying this is your fault so many times that I won't bother to count. Just keep ignoring that fact and villifying sm at KKNY's promotion since apparently that is what makes you feel better. She has boundary issues. Her grandfather is ill. She cannot control her emotions. She got her period. She can't find her keys and whatever else you can come up with. She is overreacting and taking everything out on my daughter. Does anyone else see mom's pattern of behavior in here? Or is stepmom the only ball of mess?


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RE: The homecoming dress

Thermometer, what are you trying to say -- both parents buy clothes for kids. Since when does mom not have the right to buy clothes for kid.

Almost everyone else here thinks buying dress for first dance is a mother/daughter thing. Mom did investigate and found out:

D was not part of purchasing, only looking. D did not say please buy me dress. D was offered dress after acquisition.

Sound to me that mom has bent over backwards to try and accomodate psychoSM and all she got was pushed over.


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RE: The homecoming dress

kkny, yeah it got much worse as I got older. I dont know if she was narcissistic, some of the description fits but some doesn't. And of course I'm not a professional. I do know that she was prescribed meds she refused to take and had a rough childhood. I do think she told me the diagnosis but I was much younger and plain didnt care at that point, I had had enough of her issues for a lifetime lol.

But yeah, this is reminding me of looney tune time. The key thing to remember and what I was taught, was that when an event is about YOU....it is about YOU, not other people's feelings. Its ok to have your own thoughts and own feelings about your own events. It's kind of a mind game because looking at the vampires world you subconsiously try to stay away from being what appears to be selfish. You are hyper aware of what selfish is, even when it is a good time to be selfish you try to minimize it to make the vampire comfortable. And that was the problem here, the vampire became uncomfortable.....so everyone else is scrambling or is supposed to scramble to make her comfortable again.....all over an event that is not about her! ta-da! vampire wins again.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Well Therm says that "others" agree with her. Gee LoveHadley and "others", now that we've heard SM bought dress when SD wasnt even there (oh right, Thermo thinks mom still to blame) -- please come back with your opinion.


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RE: The homecoming dress

I read your post and found it too amusing to make a decision. I keep trying to type but end up laughing too hard to compose my thoughts. I guess I've finally made a decision to respond to you since here I am uselessly typing....again. You keep twisting my words to give them your own meaning and strip them of what I say so they conform to your agenda. You accuse I say things I never said. You inform me of things as if I didn't already acknowledge them. You confuse the issues so the point of the matter is as lost on others as it is on you. Why do you keep asking people to give you more of those same opportunities? Why have you nothing better to do? And who else besides idiot me wants their contributions to the discussion to be switched around like some kind of con game? I wouldn't doubt people feel as I do that this subject is exhausted, and you and mom of 2.5 are never going to get it.


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RE: The homecoming dress

sorry, used a bad example.

What I was trying to get across is that mom's behavior didn't cause the "explosion".

The explosion was caused by stepmom & by dad...exploding.

I reiterate, though, that daughter needs to *not* be asked if she wants mom to intervene;

this nonsense is adult stuff, & mom should have called dad & said, I'm buying/I've bought the dress, don't take if out on our daughter, this is her first dance, don't ruin it for her, get yourself & your wife back in bounds & under control, get a life & get over it.

in a smiling, friendly way.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Yes, Sylvia that is good advice, D needs "not" to be asked. I might tell Dad, frankly D asked that I not speak to you, but really this is between us not her. And then say we're both sorry if SM got upset, that was not anyone's intention. Next time, why dont you just let me do dress stuff, it just upsets SM. You'll always get to the father/dad stuff.


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RE: The homecoming dress

I agree with Thermometer when she said....."If not out and out lying, DD is deliberately misleading her mother. Perhaps to spare her feelings. Perhaps to keep her mother from knowing she shares and enjoys a relationship with her stepmother. DD told them everything. DD picked out a dress. It is convenient for her to say she had no idea sm was going to purchase the dress."

This is a child that knows how to play both ends against the middle and is now a skilled teenager doing the very same thing. She has known from the age of 9 that SM would do anything BM wouldn't allow. I could totally see a 9 year old girl asking SM to help her shave her legs because BM wouldn't allow it. I think SM should have talked to BM or told DD to talk to BM before doing it, but I could see a young inexperienced SM eager to bond with her SD and wanting to help her out with a perceived embarassing problem. Same thing with lip waxing.

My sister has been shaving my 10yo neice's legs for a few years now. She was a preemie and has dark hair. Anyone who knows about preemies knows they are excessively hairy. My neice is even very self-concious of the hair on her back, but my sister said she won't mess with that until she is older.

Sweeby - remember how you were saying your DS was a completely different person when he was at BD's house than he was at your house? My DS is. When he's at dad's house, he likes Nascar, cuts the grass, eats stuff he doesn't eat at my place, works on cars, and even dresses different. Of course he's the same person, but he lives 2 completely separate lives. Even when we are all at the same place. If it's his dad's weekend, he goes to X's GF for things. If it's my weekend, he comes to me for things.

Maybe SD in this post is like that. Maybe she likes different things when she's at Dad's house. Maybe she saw the awful dress online while with BM but actually liked it and showed it to SM when she got there?

You all need to remember that this girl is a teen. Teens are manipulative. Period. And when OP said "How do I encourage her to stand up for herself?", maybe the DD needs to learn how to stand up for herself from BM too.

Mom of 2.5 - I believe (from all of your previous posts and this one) that you are a great mom. I'm not trying to say anything otherwise. Sometimes we don't even know that reactions we don't remember can cause our kids to not want to talk to us about certain things. Is it possible that your reactions to either the pictures or dresses in person caused her to change her mind about what she wanted? If it were me, I would be thankful that dad helped out at all. I would probably fall down dead if my X got a tuxedo or suit for DS, whether borrowed or bought.

All of this being said, I believe Dad's reactions were totally out of line. He shouldn't have said what he did to her on text or punished her that way.


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Where do you see manipulation?

If the dress was such a big deal, dad should have given mom a heads up re dress BEFORE they bought it. I see no evidence that DD is the lying schemer that you think, BUT when the parents (and yes by that I mean the bioparents) communicate, it makes playing one against the other tougher. SM is supposedly an adult. She should have known better than to go along with any leg shaving and lip waxing. Would any responsible SM here have done that or just said call your mom. If SM participates in things with SD that mom thinks are age inappropriate, it is a recipe for disaster. SM is trying to "buy" freindship and that never works. There is no evidence I see that says manipulation. You are just speculating. Maybe it is happening with your skids, or maybe you see it behind every rock.


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KKNY said....

"What lunatic does what she did, buys dress for kid, without kid sitting right beside her and double checking everyhting."

Well....I guess I'm a lunatic, then. When I bought SD's dress for the wedding, I could get NO cooperation from BM or SD on sizes. I and DH asked SD and BM several times to send us measurements (she had just been fitted for her cheer uniform so I knew they had measurements). Every time it was the same answer "okay I'll find out when my mom gets home" or from BM "I'll have to find the paper it's on". We asked if BM could take her to the store in their city to try it on. They never had time.

Finally, we were within 2 weeks of the wedding and I was running out of time to get a dress altered because SD didn't like the length of the one in the picture but she liked everything else about it. We tried calling and texting both her and BM once more, but no answer. SD and I are the same height so I put different sizes of dresses on and tried to gauge how much more weight I had on me than she did the last time I had seen her. DH helped, too, and we bought a dress. The thing was that we weren't going to see her until the day before we left town to get married. So there was no time to wait until she got here.

We bought a dress and I took it to my seamstress to get it shortened. The thing everybody neglected to tell me (and maybe they didn't know just how drastic it was) was that since SD had last visited 6 weeks before, she had been cheering a lot and had gained some serious muscles.

The dress didn't fit. We tried to stuff her into it and she was nearly in tears thinking she would have nothing to wear at the wedding. She actually could've barely fit into it (with a little back-butt) except for the zipper broke in half the day of the wedding.

Thank God we got so blessed to be able to find a dress in that town that would work.

But it just goes to show how important communication is. If she'd have given me any sort of sizes or measurements, we weouldn't have bought 2 dresses and had one altered so it couldn't be returned.

So I guess you can just stick me in the lunatic bin since I loved my SD and wanted her to be happy so much that I went through all that trouble for her to have a dress she loved when she couldn't be bothered to help out.


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Not the same at all

Ashley, your comparing outfitting your SD for YOUR wedding, something important to YOU and centered around YOU (as it should be, you were the bride) with outfitting a girl for her first dance, something important to her. You are comparing your situtation withe one where the mom was reading willing and able to help. Two entirely different situations. Asking your DHs X to help wiht anything related to your wedding is a little iffy. Not the present situation.

And comparing picking out a tux for a boy with a dress for a girl isnt exactly the same either.

If you cant see the differnce between these situations, then I question how accurate you are about describing your own situations.


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RE: The homecoming dress

The likelihood, in my experience & from whatever observations that I've been able to make, is that kids usually tell one parent "don't tell other parent", not for manipulation but because they flinch at the thought of what'll be in store for them from the "other parent".

which sounds like a well-grounded fear here;
the guy grounded her for picking a dress she liked better than...whatever.


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Behind Every Rock

"Maybe it is happening with your skids, or maybe you see it behind every rock."

Just like you seem to think that every SM is TOW? Sorry, KKNY, but you don't have SK so you don't know how they play both ends against the middle. I know my SD and DS do it occasionally. And I bet you can ask every parent here, both BP and SP, and they'll tell you it's a fact of divorced life.

BUT, you are right, if the BP communicate, it is much harder for that to happen. That's why DS doesn't get away with it half as much as SD. I communicate with my X. BM won't communicate with DH UNLESS it's something she wants. Other than that she avoids answering any of his questions.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Therometers insistance here made me wonder what backstory I had missed as I've not been here long. So I went back and read some older posts.

While I've not changed my opinion that this whole dress flare-up could have been easily avoided with a bit of communication between Dad and Mom long prior to purchase of any dresses occured, I can see a bit better where some of Therometers strong thoughts and insistance in them may come from. While I'm not saying I agree or disagree entirely with all stated, one quick example shines some light.

I'm not willing to totally let Mom off the hook of maybe being partially responsible in what has happened and why SM might get the impression sometimes it's okay yet other times 'don't you dare'.

Stated above was "You even acknowledge that they buy lots of DD's clothes, even more than you do. That confirms everything I have said about why that dress was purchased and others were acquired. She was not overstepping her bounds, whether she has in the past had boundary issues or not. They were doing what they normally do and what DD asked of them as she normally does"---

Looking back a quote of OR from March of this year:

"I bet my kids' SM's say similar things about me. I have snapped at them a few times, I have denied the rights to my children from time to time, and reminded my two ex's that "I didn't make babies or bills with her, my business is with you, and she can butt out!" Sometimes, I'm sure, my mood at the time making me a bit irrational. I have allowed SM to transport kids when it is convenient for me, and denied her the very next weekend because she sprung it on DD at the last minute. It wouldn't have hurt anything to let her pick her up. That was just me making sure everyone knew I'm in charge!

Because this moment of clarity is not likely to extend beyond this post and I'm not likely to apologize to my own SM's...I will apologize to all you SM's here.

Us BM's can be irrational, inconsistent, and sometimes just plain B#thchy."-----

I stated earlier Dad was sending double messages, but I think there's also a bit of reason to think Mom also sends double messages to Dad and also maybe especially SM.

Maybe some clear and consistent communication needs worked on by all adults who are raising this child. She's 14 and just entering HS, the adults and child are likely to all be 'basketcases' by the time the girl reaches 18 and I think it's a toss up as to who and which time who is to blame.


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Some people evaluate themselves more critically

It sounds to me that OP is more than willing to evaluate herself fairly (or possibly even negatively), and for that she is chastised. I doubt the SM sees things that way. As to getting upset with last minute changes in plans, many of the SMs do here to. As to the language that OP uses - "I didn't make babies or bills with her, my business is with you, and she can butt out!" -- its a little salty for my taste, but I agree with the sentiment.

How many SMs complain that mom wont do a thing, yet if she does they compalin also.

So what if both parents buy clothes -- the flip side of this is D wears what she wants and neither parent says wear only my stuff. Oh except now, with SM.


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Apples to diswashers

KKNY - It doesn't matter what the situation is, buying a dress for a girl without her sizes and measurements never turns out well and that was the only comparison I was making. Plain and simple.

But it doesn't make someone a lunatic. It may equal a bad decision. But it doesn't make them stupid or whatever. And since NONE of us (even OP) know what really went on when SM ordered that dress, we can't speculate on SM's level of sanity, can we?

I CAN see the difference. As I recall you were told in this very post that you were comparing apples to....what was it again? Oh yeah.....a dishwasher. You're pretty good at comparing apples to diswashers but calling them apples.

I could really care less if you deem my situations valid or accurate or not. For all we know any of us could just be making all this crap up.


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RE: The homecoming dress

My point in posting that, kkny, was not to smack hands, it was to point out that I think a bit of consistancy and lots of communication could make life of co-parenting in this situation a whole lot easier and less drama filled.

The only person I have to co-parent with is my husband and even in that situation husband and I both have to work on communication and making sure we at least appear in agreement on issues and events in front of daughter. If we're not, the issues are worked out behind the scene between each other. Sometimes I have to work extra hard to be on the same wavelength as DH, but if I let my daughter know that, she'd run right over us.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Honestly it really isn't a SM vs BM event. I don't hate her SM, most of the time I don't even mind her. I honestly would not have cared if SM had taken her to the mall and tried on 20 dresses, and either bought it herself or put it on hold for me to go pick up. Most of the time we all work very well together with my daughters best interest at heart. That's kinda why this whole thing being such a big deal caught me so off guard.


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RE: The homecoming dress

". . . Nothing she has written makes me believe she really understands what is going on here or her own role in making it all worse, which is the reason I gave up . . ."

Most of the time we all work very well together with my daughters best interest at heart. That's kinda why this whole thing being such a big deal caught me so off guard.

Bingo again.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Thermometer, all OP is showing is how fair she tries to be. Its not working well when pyscho SM gets her daugther a raxor and wax job. And it doesnt matter if D wanted it. D was 9. SM was susposedly an adult. It seems to me that OP has the patience of a saint, and SM has taken advantage of her. Therm, do you have a D? How would you feel if SM were doing these things?


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Poke me with a fork

I am done with you, KKNY.


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Fairness ??

Ok, well I think the rest of us know how we would feel about a SM doing these things. It just shows how OP has tried to be fair.

OP, some people when you try to be fair, view it as weekness.


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RE: The homecoming dress

welcome to the club therm :)


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RE: The homecoming dress

"OP, some people when you try to be fair, view it as weekness."

Not at all! I simply think that when a BioMom says a StepMom is not bad, then StepMom is NOT bad. And when a StepMom says BioMom's really a pretty reasonable person, then BioMom is REALLY a pretty reasonable person. Think about it -- if ever there were two people set up to dislike each other -- it's got to be a BioMom and StepMom. Sure, there's an incentive to get along -- It's best for the children. But SO MANY ways for them to antagonize each other!

Sure - OP is trying to be fair to StepMom. OP has acknowledged there have been boundary issues and turf wars. Yep - And every one of us has sided with BioMom on those issues, agreeing that StepMom overstepped her proper bounds! I did defend SM's probable motives to a certain extent, arguing probable cluelessness or desire-to-bond over malicious intent -- But that's about the extent to which anyone is siding with StepMom.

So KKNY -- Why do you insist on calling her Psycho? When even BioMom says she's 'OK'? If BioMom says she's generally OK, I'm gonna believe her, because if she wasn't, you can bet BioMom would be saying so! That's just how it works.


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RE: The homecoming dress

LOL Thanks for the welcome, Pseudo Mom. Pass the cookies, please.....and the psychotropics.


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RE: The homecoming dress

KK is on another bio-mom bender Sweeby. I wouldn't waste my words.

I stand behind my original assessment even after the additional information learned. All it would have taken to prevent this entire mess was a call from mom to dad after D came home with the dresses asking for the back story and letting him know D wasn't thrilled with the options and would like the chance to keep looking. Then the texts and the new dress wouldn't have been such a shock. It really doesn't matter who bought the dresses, the sizes, the amount of effort, any of it. A simple call would have made all the difference, and kept D from this uncomfortable situation.

For people who get along well, it sounds like there needs to be more preemptive conversation in the future.


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Thanks Guys

I couldn't sleep and it was 2am when I started reading this. It's now 2:30 - thanks for the read. It wore me out!


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RE: The homecoming dress

Gee maybe the leg shaving at 9, the lip waxing, the "lov mommy" indicates a SM who is a way overstepping. Oh right, SMs can do no wrong.

What would people here, who have daughters, think of a SM "responsilbe" for this? And I dont care if 9 year old asked for it.


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RE: The homecoming dress

My SD9 shaves and waxes per mom...

we all agreed she overstepped her bounds but mom 2.5 dealt with it .... no reason to carry a grudge for years after it happened she got over it (hint!)


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RE: The homecoming dress

I guess I'm wondering why that even matters for OP's actual issue, KK? The concern was not if the SM was responsible. You are harping on that to try and bring some validation to your SM bash. I think you know everyone's opinion on shaving et all, but your acknowledgement of my perfection as a SM is a nice way to start my day.

Back to the real issue, please?


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RE: The homecoming dress

No, the issue is were Dad and SM unreasonable about the dress and what should mom do. I believe past behaivor is a good predictor of future. SM is overstepping, SM and dad exploded unnecessarily. Mom seems concerned about daughter. Dad seems more concerned about his much younger wife, and her atititude. Its not uncommon for men to be concerned about how to keep their younger wives happy. We've all advised mom to try and smooth it over. My point is when you're dealing with unreasonable people, dont expect them to change. That is the definition of insanity -- keeping doing the same thing and expecting change.

I've seem many SMs here harping about irresponsible moms, and the message includes watch your back. Why should it be any different for a mom?


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RE: The homecoming dress

kkny, have you ever heard the term "displacement"? http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/displacement.htm

Because sometimes, I don't think that you do it on purpose, but I think that because you are still angry about your own situation, you "displace" that onto others and every SM who makes a "bad" decision is "Imbelic" (I think you meant IMBECILE btw) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imbecile),"cheap", "insensitive", a "jerk", "physco" (I think you meant "psycho"), a "control freak", "overbearing", an "idiot", a "nutjob" or a "lunatic". You also say things like this to the OP:

kkny said:
"And OP, I am not kidding physco SM and dad will very likely decide your D is an ingrate. They are control freaks. TALK TO A LAYWER. D IS AT AN AGE WHERE SHE CAN HAVE SOME SAY ON VISITATION, AND THIS SITUATION IS LIKELY TO GET WORSE. You may want to get D counseling in how to deal with physco SM."

That seems to me to be displacing your anger that you have at your ex and at his GF and throwing it at the SM of mom_of_2.5's DD because something about this post probably triggered something in you, perhaps an unhappy or upsetting memory.


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RE: The homecoming dress

No, I am merely trying to advise someone. Just because you dont agree with me, no need to attack. There are many SMs here who will make every excuse to attack a child's mother, yet will make every excuse to stick up for inappropriate behavior of a SM. Perhaps they have been treated unfairly, as a SM.

I offer advise becuase I see a woman who sincerely wants to help her D, and a father who evidently beleives in the "marriage first" school advocated by many SMs here, even when SM explodes unnecessarily at his own daughter.


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RE: The homecoming dress

" My point is when you're dealing with unreasonable people, dont expect them to change
"

But KKNY this is not the case here. Mom_of_2.5 has said repeatedly that she usually maintains a good relationship with her ex, that this particular fiasco is unusual and surprising.

That, to me, makes it all the more likely that there IS a reason they are so upset. I tend to agree with Therm and Ashley, and whoever else said it, that it's very possible DD gave the impression that she did want to buy that dress.

I just don't see a reason why, in a situation where things are usually on a pretty even keel, dad/SM would get SO upset---unless they felt it was warranted. Did they overreact? I think in this case, probably. But it doesn't like there is a pattern of them overreacting.

Totally agree that a call from OP could have/would have smoothed the situation over before it blew up.


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reaction

"a father who evidently beleives in the "marriage first" school advocated by many SMs here, even when SM explodes unnecessarily at his own daughter."

Way to shift all the blame onto the SM, KK. As usual.

DAD is the one that exploded/yelled at his DD here. Apparently SM was angry, but even OP said that DD was hurt by DAD'S reaction.


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RE: The homecoming dress

KKNY, you're reading things that do not exist in the postings from OP.

--"even when SM explodes unnecessarily at his own daughter."---

SM was not even talking to SD, Dad did the yelling. OP writes "Her Dad yelled at her, her SM wouldn't talk to her, they took away her phone and made her go to bed early", but you turn it into "even when SM explodes unnecessarily at his own daughter".

You seem bent on hating all SMs everywhere no matter what the actual poster is saying or telling us.


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Hadley

LH,

Dad is the one demanding D apologize to SM. SM was clearly angry.

I am NOT putting all blame on SM, I am clearly putting some on dad. I dont know why you choose to ignore that.

Dads and SMs reaction went way overboard. If a teen "gives you the impresssion" she wants something, I think all of us know to take that with a grain of salt. SM has shown she does not operate on a level keel. It seems to me that mom has been overaccomodating and gets her D bit for it. Which is why I strongly advise OP to see a lawyer.

OP, in some states, not all, courts can order CS till 21 and order college tuitition. You really should start college planning.

LH, I recall you have a girl. Statistics say it is not unlikely you will get divorced. So I guess it wouldnt bother you everything SM has done, including the shaving, waxing and buying first dance dress, without conculting you.


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kkny

"So I guess it wouldnt bother you everything SM has done, including the shaving, waxing and buying first dance dress, without conculting you."

So the truth comes out! What really touched a nerve with you, KK, is the fact that SM bought the dress first!

I stated in one of my previous posts that I DID feel SM had overstepped her bounds in many areas. But IMO that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.


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Love

No Love, its a pattern of SM not appreciating her role, and then over-reacting when she doesnt get to be the mom. And the fact that Dad is demanding that D fix things with SM to me (not apologize to HIM) is indicative that he is not that upset, other than how to keep his young wife happy. Gee, maybe that started the yelling -- Dad has to put marriage first, his wife, right or wrong. If SM could understand that she is not the mom and act accordingly none of this would have happened.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Young wife seems to have surfaced several times suddenly. Shannon, I think you made a very astute observation.

Moving on. . . the horse is dead, but being drug around and around . . .


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RE: The homecoming dress

JNM,

I have always tried to be fair, and supportive of CHILDREN. Not Sms, not moms, children. You know I sympathized when your SD was being used excessivly as a babysitter by her own mother, etc.

This has nothing to do with resenting a younger second wife, only that she has been given too much rope, and abused it.

I have agreed mom should try and make peace. BUT, OP, some of the SMs here think a SM can do no wrong. All I am saying is DAD is demanding apology for SM, not for him. That speaks volumes.

OP I must again strongly advise you to see a lawyer and get college funding on track and CS to the maximum. Dont put this off. In states which do not order college tuition, you can stockpile any CS you dont need now and save for college. The problem as I see it is unless SM gets her way, it can easily become my way or the highway, and your D will get left by the road.

Good luck!


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RE: The homecoming dress

SM can do no wrong....Sigh, SM can do no right either...Having bought SS clothing so he would have some nice ones for school, they were summarily rejected by BM too,just for the fact they were from me..Wonder if he were starving and I offered food, would that have been rejected too...If I were this SM, and was just trying to do something nice(and maybe she is childless, or doesnt know better) clueless that BM is wanting to buy HC dress for her first dance, where is the malice, or overstepping...My DH would want his DS to apolgize to me if he hurt my feelings, over a misunderstanding.......Shannon, yes I agree you were very insightful, but I m feeling full tilt empty nest syndrome.....Been there, done that, very painful, but dont worry KKNY, it ll will get better by Christmas, I promise you :)


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RE: The homecoming dress

it is too funny.

all the time people post here how BMs buy inappropriate, ill fitting, cheap, ugly clothes to their kids, send kids to dads house in clothes that cannot be worn to nice events etc so dads and SMs have to fix it by buying more appropriate items.

now all of a sudden when dad and SM buy wrong clothing and mom has to fix it, it is all mom's fault and she needs to apologize. too funny and very double standard.


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RE: The homecoming dress

Dotz, I am willing to assume no malice in buying the dress. But to over-react when mom went out and bought is the problem. This is NOT one of the uninvolved moms.

If both parents want to buy a kid clothes, why yell at kid. Or demand apology. If your DH would demand his kid apologize to you for wearing clothes mom bought, I would feel sorry for him. But I dont think your DH would demand apology for that, would he?

And dotz, with an involved mom, do you think the SM handling the 9 YO leg shaving and lip waxing? OK.


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more

it has to be about a child. not about how not to upset SM. it is ridiculous.

if somebody buys me a gift of something that doesn't fit, i am not going to wear it. why is this girl have to wear it, just so not to upset SM? doesn't make any sense. dad and SM can put their marriage first between them two as much as they want. but it is not about their marriage, it is about a child. and that's where the problem comes from.


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Fine

Personal note Fine, Not accusing my BM of buying inappropriate cheap, ill fitting clothes..She buys no clothes...Cigs are expensive, and with no job, she has to cut the budget somewhere :)


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RE: The homecoming dress

kkny, first of all, I did not attack you, I was just making an observation about your behaviour and asking you if you had ever heard the term "displacement" because you seem to have displaced anger.

You say that you " offer advise becuase I see a woman who sincerely wants to help her D, and a father who evidently beleives in the "marriage first" school advocated by many SMs here, even when SM explodes unnecessarily at his own daughter."

This was your "advice": (see it below in quotes)
- for the OP to apologize and "put the blame on herself".

What does this teach the OP's DD, about relationships, about how to deal with other people in the world? You also tell the OP to "Grovel if she must" at some point in your posts. OMG, you are telling a woman to grovel? What century is this...?? No one, man or woman or child should be told to grovel to anyone...!!

-you tell the OP to tell her DD to "stall if Dad wants to "help" her with shopping" and "not to tell Dad about any parties"

Is the DD now not supposed to shop with her own father?? Is she supposed to keep it a "Secret" if she has a dance to go to or a party? The OP's DD is now supposed to not be honest with her Dad, to lie to him, to omit information? Is this the advice you give to your OWN DD??

Finally, you tell the OP to "check that you are getting the max child support and discuss with lawyer. Since dad cant handle clothing, make certain you get as much CS as possible. And please, make certain you deal with college as early as possible. If you are going to have to negotatiote with dad and SM you want to know. OTOH, some states will order NCP to pay tuition."
The OP states repeatedly that she usually gets along well with her ex. Why would you try to have her start a firestorm and bring attorneys into it,which will cost her lots of $$ and bring emotional havoc on her, on her DD, and on her ex?? Why would you take what the OP has said is a fairly good relationship between ex's and turn it into a possible hell-on-earth scenario? The only reason I can see that you would give this advice is that this is the sort of thing that you have experienced, and that's why I mentioned the term "displacement" to you.

Finally, you said to LoveHadley that you are all about supporting and helping CHILDREN. Teaching a child to lie or withold things from her Dad (or to do this to anyone for that matter), and to have her Mom "take blame and apologize" when she hasn't done anything wrong is not supporting or helping anyone.

-----------------------------------------------------------Here is your post kkny:
Posted by kkny (My Page) on Mon, Oct 5, 09 at 16:52

"OP, a lot of advice here. To summarize, my recco,

1. Call your X and apoligize, blame on you. Dont worry if not true, you and mom can have a few laughs later. And there are an awful lot of SMs here who complain when mom buys inappropriate stuff.

2. Tell D not to let Dad berate her. Call you if problem.

3. In future, tell D to stall if dad wants to "help" her with shopping. Dont tell Dad about any parties til you two can work it out. He is way overly sensitive.

4. Again, check that you are getting max Child support and discuss college with lawyer. Since dad cant handle clothing, make certain you get as much CS as possible. And please, make certain you deal with college as early as possible. If you are going to have to negotatiote with dad and SM you want to know. OTOH, some states will order NCP to pay tuition."

-----------------------------------------------------

PS: JNM, I guess you are right about the horse...:D

PPS: LoveHadley, you are right. The OP never said that the "SM explodes unnecessarily at his own daughter" as quoted by kkny.


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More on dress

Your right, I stand corrected. Dad exploded. But now wants apolgy for SM. For what, for SD wearing another dress? Give me a break.

As to getting atttorneys involved, that is what is necessary to protect children at times. College is just around the corner for the girl and OP should be preparing for it.

As to groveling, that is what one may have to do in the world when someone else has power. Especially over your child.

So you say dont grovel and dont get attorneys involved -- OK.


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RE: The homecoming dress

" College is just around the corner for the girl and OP should be preparing for it. "

I just LOVE how a discussion about a DRESS turned into the automatic assumption that dad and SM are jerks, think the kid is an ingrate and that dad will refuse to help pay for college.

It just makes NO sense.

Mom_of_2.5 can you clarify here? Are you at all concerned that Dad won't contribute to college expenses?


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enough attacks

when people are losing argument, they start personal attacks on posters with whom they disagree. makes me wonder if that's how they argue in real life...probably not. and talking about displaced anger...could it be that some posters are actually angry about something in their own lives but choose to attack KKNY because it is easier.


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Dress

At the end of the day, all SD did was wear a dress her mom picked out, after SM bought her dress without SDs explicit involvement. Doesnt anyone else go shopping and looking and not necessarily buy?

Dad explodes, SM (who has previously demanded the mom title, and overstepped) is angry and dad demands apology.

Mom has been advised by all to try to smooth over, as in Im sorry we did not mean to upset SM.

A lot of the SMs here have uninvolved, drug using, etc mothers of their Stepkids. Entirely different situation. Its hard to be overstepping when mom is missing in action. There are many types of SMs, SMs where dad has full custody etc. Advice doesnt work the same in different situations. Some have been hurt badly and have had lots thrust on them. While some of them acuse me of being against every SM, I would suggest they have been understandly hurt by their situtions.

College is just around the corner. Dad has shown he overreacts to SMs feelings. It is scary.


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RE: The homecoming dress

finedreams, I do not consider this an "argument", more of a "discussion". I don't argue, and I find that this is an interesting discussion, and it's interesting to see how others think...I always learn something by reading our discussions here, that's why I come back. :D

Also, what do you consider an "attack" because I simply asked kkny with much respect if she had ever heard of the term "displacement". I did not accuse her of having it, I simply brought it into the discussion very nicely and I reiterated all of the adjectives that kkny used to describe the OP's DD's SM. (see below)

shannon2356 said:
"Because sometimes, I don't think that you do it on purpose, but I think that because you are still angry about your own situation, you "displace" that onto others and every SM who makes a "bad" decision is "Imbelic" (I think you meant IMBECILE btw) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imbecile),"cheap", "insensitive", a "jerk", "physco" (I think you meant "psycho"), a "control freak", "overbearing", an "idiot", a "nutjob" or a "lunatic". "

And kkny, sorry, but I humbly cannot agree that grovelling works in any of the situations that I can ever recall seeing on this forum. To be honest, I was really under the impression that by the way you present yourself on here, that grovelling would not be something that you would ever do. I would discuss, yes, but grovel, NEVER. An example of the only reason that "Grovelling" would be acceptable to me is the following:
if someone is trying to murder you or rape you or is violent with you or someone you love, you grovel and beg and plead for your life. That's the ONLY situation I would ever accept someone grovelling for anything. See the definition below:

grov⋅el  /ˈgrʌvəl, ˈgrɒv-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [gruhv-uhl, grov-] Show IPA
Use grovel in a Sentence
See web results for grovel
See images of grovel
verb (used without object), -eled, -el⋅ing or (especially British) -elled, -el⋅ling. 1. to humble oneself or act in an abject manner, as in great fear or utter servility.
2. to lie or crawl with the face downward and the body prostrate, esp. in abject humility, fear, etc.
3. to take pleasure in mean or base things.

Finally, kkny, when your advice to the OP was to
"tell her DD to "stall if Dad wants to "help" her with shopping" and "not to tell Dad about any parties",

you did not reply to my question. Is this something you tell your DD to do with her her own Dad? Can anyone else answer this question for me in their own situation, does anyone do this?


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