I think you are underestimating the influence you will have on her in the future. She's still very young. Also, try to remember that we all have very different personalities by NATURE. If she lived with you full time, she probably still wouldn't be as confident as you. But you can be a big influence on her and by your example, she will learn something! Continue to encourage her to step out of her comfort zone a little at a time. You're doing a good job, don't be discouraged. But please don't underestimate the wonderful example you can set for her. Children are always watching us and learning even when we don't realize it.

This seems to me to be more than an immaturity problem. SD sounds like she is fearful of many activities that would be normal for her at her age to tackle. However, her mental age may not be the same as her chronological age. Does she do well in school? Can your husband (and you) speak with one of her teachers? That might give you some insight.

Her mother and her upbringing may have a lot to do with how she is now but being around others who challenge her and let her do new things will help. You may not spend a lot of her time with her but she'll learn things from every person in her life, no matter how small their part. Give her time, she's stil young. I'm sure there are people you knew as a child that acted like your SD and as grown up's run their own corporations. People change and well the years of change are coming for your step daughter.

Just because her mother is like that doesn't mean she doesn't need psychiatric care. Her mother may benefit from it as well. Unreasonable fear of almost everything is categorized as a paranoid mental disorder. I would check into professional help.

Somehow, I can't see my SD ever running her own corporation. I could be wrong and BIG changes could occur, but for now all I see is introvert, follower, fear and no self confidence. For most things such as biking and skating, she won't even TRY. My husband spends hours with her, even bought her a brand new fancy bike. She refuses to have anything to do with it. It sits in the garage gathering dust -- because we don't want to push the issue. We have one of those battery powered kiddie-cars -- our 3 year old rides it all over the yard. SD won't get in it. I bought her a pair of training roller blades, geared for MUCH younger kids. Nope. Wouldn't do it. Again, our 3 year old uses them!

As far as her school, she does pretty well. However, she attends one of the poorest schools in my state. Her school has a very low academic standard -- the custody battle over that issue is a whole different post! My personal observation is that SD "hangs out" with the teachers and camp counselors, seeking their approval and constant attention.

When we approach BM about this, she believes that she is doing an excellent job and there is no problem. I believe that this is because she is raising her daughter in her image. If BM was someone I worked with, I would avoid her like the plague. Whiney, fake, fearful, difficult to communicate with, a skewed sense of reality and low self esteem.

I suppose my fear is that my SD will end up being a victim. I see her personality in two of my SD's aunts. One is in a physically and verbally abusive relationship and can't find the courage to leave this person for good, the other works for a man who is verbally abusive and walks all over her. She doesn't quit because "she couldn't find another job". HUH? This is what I'm afraid my SD's future will look like.

I really need to know if anyone else has been in a situation like this, and how they handled the differences in personality in building a stronger relationship. How do you get past the fact that this person is EVERYTHING that rubs you the wrong way? How do I move from tolerance to love? How can I do a better job of masking my frustrations?

Just from your brief description of her behavior, have you ever had her tested for a psychological disorder? She could have something else going on that is beyond her control and understanding. The characteristics you described almost sound like autism. Many autistic children, as well as those with learning disabilities, etc. thrive on routine. This may be hard for us to accept, since as adults most of us can do everything for ourselves. But some kids need everything planned out for them. Those children with deeper problems can literally have a "meltdown" (as they call it in the psychiatric field) if their routine is even disrupted for an hour or two.

Either that or she's VERY self conscious and self-doubting. Even at nine years old, the self-image problems are already starting earlier and earlier these days. From what you say, she has trouble asserting herself, and I don't see what a couple sessions with a counselor or someone could hurt.

I don't have any advice..just wanted to say that this sounds like a very sad situation and I feel for the girl.

If you can't find patience or love, you might try compassion. It's not her fault she is the way she is and without specialized help things may never change with her.

Just sounds so very sad.

She has been evaluated by a psychologist about a year ago when we tried to get custody due to the school situation. She was found to be "a pleasant, well-adjusted child" according to the counselor. This, I don't believe. How can you know this after talking to a child for just 2 hours? But, BM does believe it. And it's her cooperation we need in order to have any meaningful, ongoing counseling. I don't believe my SD is autistic -- and I don't want to sound like a broken record -- but she's just trying to be like her mother, who does the same thing (BM keeps logs, journals, diaries and to-do lists to help schedule her day). No flexibility here.

I see so much of her mother in her that I just want to shake BM and say "don't you realize what you're doing -- you're screwing her up big-time!!". The poor kid has no chance of learning who SHE is, she's too busy trying to be her mother. In addition to this, she's scared of displeasing her mother and will ALWAYS do as her mother wants, even if she doesn't like it. When these things get back to us, we always coach her into speaking her own mind. But it never happens. For instance, her mother MAKES her call her new step-dad "Daddy". Does she like it? Heck no. Does she do it? Absolutely. We can step in here and speak up for her, which we do, but she needs to do it herself -- and she won't do it.

If she stopped calling her stepdad "daddy," what would happen? She'd probably get in trouble. Or feel like her mother didn't love/like her because she refuses. Some kids automatically don't defy authority, believe it or not. She sounds like she wants to please her mother very much. I know what that's like - as a kid from a divorced family, I wanted to please my dad in the worst way possible - maybe because I thought, in a skewed way, that he would love me more if I were "perfect" - and even at 28, I still feel like I should please him. But there's a difference between standing up for yourself and disrespecting authority. She is in a situation, probably, where she feels like maybe the divorce was something she did. Even if we know it's not true, most of us who were in this situation thought about this at one time or another when we were young.

You haven't mentioned what your other children are like (I'm assuming from your name that you have three of your own?). Are they completely different than your stepdaughter? If so, maybe that's why you're noticing her behavior more. Just be glad that her mother agrees she's well adjusted, and doesn't want to put her on a ton of medication.

Do you not realize that she is her mother's child? Children have characteristics that their parents have. It sounds to me like you do not want her to be like her mother but like you. I was a lot like her when I was child. Guess why? Because my parents were divorced and I wanted them to still love me. A lot of children of divorce are exactly like that. A counselor can tell a lot about a person in 2 hours. She is only 9. Let her grow up before you start harping on her. Some people's personaiities do not mix. Maybe that is the case here. Do not get mad and upset at her because she is not lke you and your children.

Thank you all for the ideas and outlooks! Yes, I have four kids total -- my SD, 9; a son 11; a daughter 17; and WE have a 3 year old daughter.

I do indeed realize that my SD's mother is a powerful influence and a person that my SD looks up to and seeks approval from. Having known BM and dealing with her for 7 years, I also know that she is not a strong person, not successful in many endeavors, cares more about what she perceives others think of her and does not have the confidence or self esteem to stand on her own. She uses her kids as a shield for the world and lives her life thru them, insisting that they do what she wants. Respect and obedience is a good thing, but you also have to teach your kids independence and how to to think, act and feel for themselves. You can't keep doing this for them as they grow up, yet this is what she does.

Sorry, but I want good things for my kids! I want them to be able to function in the world. I want them to be prepared for whatever life throws at them. I want them to face their lives with courage, confidence and poise. I don't want them to cower and cry when things don't go their way, or run and hide, waiting for someone else to "fix" it for them.

As far as SD being forced to call her step-dad "daddy", I think this is the height of arrogance on BM's part. This child does not WANT to call him that -- and she tells us that she hates it. Yet, she doesn't have the courage to tell her mother this, to talk to her about it. We suggested to her that she tell her mother she's not comfortable with that, that she'd rather not. I don't think that's disrespectful -- I think that's being honest about her feelings. And pity the fact that she doesn't feel she can have a heart-to-heart, honest conversation with her mother!

My following response smacks of social engineering. I'm kind of embarrassed at it myself, but if you don't mind, read on, gentle reader.

There were lots of responses along the lines of "give her time". I agree, but I think it should be expounded:
1) make sure that what you're getting upset about isn't age-appropriate behavior. To wit -- a baby's job is to cry. We shouldn't get too mad at him for crying because, hey, he's just doing his job.
2) Don't take 'give her time' to mean 'wait a bit then try again'. Take it to mean -- keep up what you're doing (as long as what you're doing is appropriate and not too over-the-board-A-type-personality) and don't expect results or gratitude, either one. In my experience, the kid *won't* change for a long time -- or even while s/he's in your company, for many reasons -- not ready yet mentally, gets a kick out of causing you grief, etc. But then a year or two from now, or maybe if she starts living solely with her mom or someone worse, things'll click and she'll change rapidly. This happened with my older SS -- after 8 months of me trying to bash hard-learned lessons of my own into his head, he moves back with his BD, and hey presto he suddenly realizes the validity of some of my prattlings because now he has experience with somebody way different.

It's like school -- constant repetition aids learning.

So, basically, be in it for the long haul, with the goal of her changing a bit for the better and not for the goal of getting a pat on the back.

Which leads me to point 2: don't take it personally. You seem way too a-type-personality. IMHO -- steps are custodians more than parents, unless the bio-folks aren't around too much and if the steps came on the scene when the child/ren were very young (2 or younger). Present all these different ways of being to your SD, but allow the kid to chose her own path as much as you can/is safe for her. If you don't let the kid choose, then you're giving her one more lesson in being the victim. Allow her to be a victim if she wants -- but mimize the dysfunctional rewards she gets from that.

Which leads to....

> For most things such as biking and skating, she won't even TRY

We babysat a child for a couple that wouldn't look anybody in the eye at first, that would talk in a mumble, and who would cry for his dad incessantly -- because his mom is a psycho. (Not to put too fine a point on it.) We basically forced him to look us in the eyes when he was talking to us (snapping our fingers, telling him, etc), put him in a room by himself to cry, etc. Don't give in to these weird sorts of behaviors from your SD -- if she doesn't want to do something, ok fine, but don't let that limit everyone else. Everyone go to the park and skate, and she can sit on the bench feeling miserable.

Obviously, this'll take some extra planning on your part to do stuff that'll be able to be safe for her to be alone for while everyone else is off.

2 items: 1) Constantly offering her stuff to do that she declines is initiating a 'yes, but' game -- she gets to wallow in the attention of other people offering her stuff while at the same time *perpetuating* a situation that generates this attention. 2) If you *force* her to do stuff you're both turning yourself into her mother (forcing her to call her stepdad dad) and also reinforcing the 'I gotta do what people tell me' behavior. If she doesn't want to, that should be okay, but then she should have the real consequences of being left out -- and she should be forced *not* to be left with the babies, because that seems to be where she wants to be, with the babies.

That last bit -- if you overdo it with the only-planning-stuff-she-doesn't-like -- she'll prob start hating coming over to your place. You should also do some stuff she likes -- like maybe arty stuff or reading or whatnot -- but she shouldn't be allowed to only be with the 3 year old at this time. She should be forced to either be alone or be with the older kids, so that she'll have them to emulate.

And, here's a thought -- maybe she's saying she doesn't want to do stuff because *she* doesn't like *you* and doesn't want to spend more time than necessary around someone that keeps forcing her to do stuff she doesn't like, and who she thinks doesn't like her very much. Dunno -- but you're coming off very exasperated with her in your mails -- she prob senses this very easily. I know I wasn't hiding it very well with my older SS towards the end of his stay with us.

>As far as SD being forced to call her step-dad "daddy", I think this is the height of arrogance on BM's part. This child does not WANT to call him that

One of the things that I see with my girlfriend's older children is that they've learned that some people -- specifically their parents -- need to be managed. This can be good in the case of them allowing themselves to love somebody other parental types dispise, but it can be bad in the 'playing people off each other' way. Personally, I find it kind of distasteful, seeing children 'manage' adults, because I don't think families should function that way in a perfect world, but like I said it can be useful when some parties are more dys than functional.

Anyway, in this specific case, I think your SD needs to bone up on how to manage her mother. She has no control over what her Mom says, and she has to bear the brunt of the consequences of living with her mom for another 9 years or so. However, she *does* have control over what goes on in her own head -- although this is perhaps a somewhat sophisticated concept for a 9 year old. Dunno.

So basically, she needs to learn to give her mom lip service at home, call her stepdad whatever she feels like elsewhere, be sure *not* to let mom find out (ie no diary entries and no blabbing) and not let it bother her.

Granted, this is distasteful and shouldn't be necessary, but unless she's going to not be under her mom's roof for one reason or another, her mom sounds f-ing silly and needs to be managed.

Be careful, though -- if you try to encourage this sort of thing directly with her, don't be surprised if she blabs to her BM about "well, my step-mom said I should just tell you what you want to hear". CYA -- if you're going to encourage it, do it sneakily: "Man, I really hate my boss for making me do X, but you know sometimes you just can't fight city hall. But as soon as I get home, I do Y instead."

And finally:
When she gets older, I wouldn't be surprised if she self-cripples herself in some way -- ie gets herself hitched to a controlling SOB to recreate her childhood or invents some weird kind of phobia for herself that limits her behavior -- say, being deathly frightened of squirrels. I think a lowgrade, constant program on your part to change her thinkings is a good thing on your part. Watch yourself though -- temperance, moderation.

Anyway.

Well I agree with you completely, she *IS* your opposite: "I am confident, independent, successful, adventurous. I don't NEED anyone to take care of me. I choose to be with my husband because he is my soulmate. "

She lacks so much of your self described attributes, plus she doesn't get to 'choose,' soul mate or otherwise. But I wonder, being a child...should she really have all those attributes at 9 or 10 or even 14?

I think she might improve (so to speak) if she's allowed to be who she is and offered only compassion, love and understanding...not disapproval, comparison and belittling. She clings to the adults around her looking for something...ask yourself what it is that she's not getting.

Reading your post made me feel so sorry for her. Your attitude could be making it worse. Sorry, that's not going to be very popular, but the truth often does sting.
It seems obvious that she's feeling VERY insecure with the new arrangement that the adults in her life have brought on her. She's probably wondering who she is and where she fits in the new family arrangement.

I suggest you accept her at her emotional level (whatever "age" that is) and reassure her every single day that she's loved and wonderful and will always have a place in your family. Find ways to show her how important she is Every Day. Putting yourself in her shoes doesn't seem to work for you, but maybe if you try Acceptance you'll discover that you can make a HUGE difference in this little girls life by loving who she is every step of the way.

I can't imagine having to live with 2 different families every other week. How physically and emtionally EXHAUSTING!!!
The court system tries, but I really don't think that's in the child's best interest at all and your SD's behaviour and fears and clinginess proves that it is NOT working for her. Go back to court? Give her up? She needs more stability until she's feeling stronger.
JMHO
V

Whew! Lots of info!

First off, this is not a new situation. We have all been living this same custody arrangement for 5 years. Secondly, my SD has exhibited these same personality traits as long as I've known her, since she was 3 1/2. At age 4, I saw her place her cup of milk on one end of the kitchen table, walk to the other end and sit down -- then proceed to scream at the top of her lungs for someone to bring it to her. Personally, I believe this is because BM's history of coddling and catering. In addition, we do not FORCE her to try new things -- we gently encourage her. I buy her skates -- it's up to her to strap them on. And, I don't believe for a second that she doesn't try new things at our house out of not liking me. She won't do these things at her mother's house, either. Her Dad tries to teach her to ride a bike -- and believe me, he's the most patient and gentle man you could imagine -- and she is just NOT interested.

Joe, are you a closet psychologist? :-) Love your comments!

A few more thoughts. Why is it unreasonable to expect her to be able to befriend kids her age and not constantly hang out with toddlers? Why is it unreasonable to expect her to figure things out (it's cold, so I better wear a jacket)? Why is it unreasonable to think she should be able to do simple tasks unassisted (like make a phone call)? OR to open a car door without being told (instead of staring at it until someone specifically says to open it and get in)?Why is it unreasonable to expect her to use a fork to eat (instead of her fingers)? Why is it unreasonable to expect her not to talk in baby talk? Why is it unreasonable to expect her not to CONSTANTLY interrupt adults when they are talking? Is it so wrong to want her to develop a backbone?

Sorry, but I don't think these things I just mentioned are unreasonable. She is still expecting everyone to think, feel and direct for her. Most of her characteristics are definitely mirroring her BM, and I believe that in this case they are, for the most part, LEARNED behaviors, not genetic. "Accepting her at her emotional level" means viewing her as a 5 year old.

Point taken. If I am indeed being over-the-top and unreasonable, I will stay out of it and let her be, whatever that turns out to be. Difficult, but do-able. And I will be me. What happens when she sports a black eye 10 years from now because her boyfriend whacked her, and she says "but he loves me and he's sorry" ... Or when she's boo-hooing because her boss gave her constructive criticism or an unflattering review and she can't handle it? Will I say "Uh, huh ... told ya so" ... I'll try not to.

Maybe you should have explained her behaviors more in the first post. Some of the things she does are normal and some I would say are not. She should know enough to do things like use a fork or whatever. But there are other things that she may not do because of the rules at her mothers house? Like maybe she isn't allowed to touch or just go ahead and do things (I had a controlling step father who made pretty much most of the house off limits to us and we had to ask before we did just about anything). The fact that she doesn't think to wear a coat, doesn't surprise me either. There are kids of all ages that refuse to wear one, no matter how cold it is and there are even adults that are too stupid to realize it's cold and to grab a coat. It could also be her just trying to rebel against your rules or whatever. Also, I wouldn't blame the mother totally for everything. Your husband is also her parent. How did he raise her or how's he handle things now? Does he agree with you and try to straighten her out when she's with you guys or allow her to behave however? As for her putting her cup down on the table at 3 1/2 and walking to the other side and screaming for it...I think you just described most toddlers and preschool kids (my son is 3 1/2 and does stuff like this occasionally). I know kids that are 4 and 5 and still do that ..it's a test to see how much others will do for them and you have to break it or it continues.

Nobody says you shouldn't try to encourage her to do things on her own and try new stuff...there is nothing wrong with that. It just seems from your posts that you're thinking you can change her into what you want in a week or so. She's going to be her own person no matter what. You may influence her life and she'll decide to change as she grows up but you can't change her. People have to want to change and do it on their own. (Biggest mistake people make is to think they can change a person so they're who they like...reason why many marriages and relationships fail) Just realize that you are her step mother and she probably does hold a grudge or something against you..it happens.

Good luck.

She's really got the spotlight shining on her doesn't she? FWIW I think she does have backbone. She's standing up to you, what you want for/of her and from the sound of your post you're pretty frustrated. So she doesn't want to ride a bike, big deal. This is going to sound cliche perhaps, but how much NEGATIVE attention is she getting for her behaviour!
I said it before and I'll say it again....just let her be and tell her you LOOOOOOOOOVE her every day (even if you don't like her)and show her she's special with some positive attention. Ignore the negative. I really think she'll be a happier kid and her behavior will improve and so will your family life.
Sometimes if we back off a bit things clear up on their own.

As for the future black eye...if she knows her daddy loves AND respects her = chances are she won't end up with an abusive partner.
& maybe she won't get a poor review...maybe she'll do well in a job she chooses and enjoys that you probably wouldn't choose or enjoy.
Do you think your 5 year history with her has made you expect the worst?
In an internet nutshell it seems so obvious to me that she's screaming for attention...but what she needs is POSITIVE attention whenever she does something right. She does do some things right? Right?...

Best to you,
V

> Why is it unreasonable to expect her to be able to befriend kids her age and not constantly hang out with toddlers? ...to figure things out (it's cold, so I better wear a jacket)... be able to make a phone call... to open a car door without being told ...to use a fork to eat (instead of her fingers)...not to talk in baby talk...not to CONSTANTLY interrupt adults ...Is it so wrong to want her to develop a backbone?

My advice -- read a lot of Terry Pratchett. One of his books, Soul Music I think, has a character Susan Death who is a nanny or a teacher at the start of the book. Susan treats her kids as little people as opposed to treating them like what-adults-think-children-are (ie 3-2-1 Contact or Newtons Apple vs Teletubbies) because she figures they already know what children are like -- they need to be taught what adults are like.

So, no, I don't think you're being unreasonable. On the other hand -- she's not a sock puppet, so you don't have ultimate control over her (and I'm talking ability-to-control as opposed to morality-of-control). So basically, because she's young, because she prob has no practice at thinking and lots of practice at not thinking, and possibly because she may enjoy torking you off (even maybe using you as a substitute for torking her mom off because you're safer (ie you're not insane) ) your SD is going to get it constantly wrong. What you *do* have controll over is you -- the energy you put into this, the expectations you have, the anger you both generate and exhibit.

An aside -- ever hear Bill Cosby's "Brain Damage" routine? When he comes home, the house is trashed in ways he specifically told his children not to trash it, he asks his
10 year old "Why?" and she replies "I don't know?" Some of this sounds like that. There's a disconnect between "wanna do" and "consequences".

>But there are other things that she may not do because of the rules at her mothers house?

I agree with nadastimer; a lot of this sounds like your SD is letting "rules in wackyland" slop over in to your house. The problem of course is that rules are very easy to turn into habits or in this case borderline behaviors.

Sooo...make sure the rules in your house are the rules in your house. ie "In my house, children wait for adults to stop talking." Three strikes and you're out -- interrupt 3 times, and off to your room. Be consistent, and be sure to be flexibile if flexibility is warranted. (Sounds like a contradiction, but only because life is gray, not binary.)

Also sounds like your SD has probs differentiating between herself and the world -- consequences, empathy, self centeredness. Although I personally thing therapy is a bunch of expensive hoohah, this sort of thing you might want to ask a real psych-type about since this sounds like she's frozen at a toddler/preschool stage of dev.

Compartimentalization. What's a possible outcome is that, okay, in two years or so, you get her to accelerate her emotional dev -- but only *in your house*. When she goes back to her BM, she reverts, and in the transition stages of your custody times -- comings and goings -- she's reverted too. I think this is okay -- if she realizes that her mom's place is 'wackyland' -- ie the abberant-behaviors-place-because-I-need-to-do-this-stuff-there-to-get-by -- and not your place, and especially not the inside of her own head. If *your* place is 'wackyland' to her, *then* she's setting herself up for a life of real-fake problems. (My term for real problems caused by people and therefore avoidable -- lawsuits, beatings from boyfriends, etc.)

Ask somebody else about this, though -- I don't want to be really screwing up a kid through pet theories. Think about Karl Marx... :)

Gear your efforts towards getting her to see that use rules to help us live, not live as supplicants to a system of rules.

Obviously, this is a lot for a nine year old.

Basically, I think the only way changes for her could be made easier if for the BM and you to synch up your parenting plans. I don't see this happening though.

> Joe, are you a closet psychologist?

No, but I do think I know it all, so it's almost the same. :) Thanks.

Joe,
I can't see why you disagreed with me saying that she might do things at her father's house because of rules at her mothers...cause what you're saying can also fall under that. Maybe she wasn't taught at home that it isn't okay to interrupt adults? That may just be perfectly fine in her mother's household. You can apply that to other things that are going on, also. If she's truly sheltered from the world when she's with her mother, you can't expect her to be completely different when she goes to her father's house. That's expecting too much from the kid and if she did that. Parents don't all raise their kids the same way...not even parents to the same kid.

I still wonder how much of this goes on just out of spite. Any step child can tell you that they caused problems at their non-custodial parents house. Not many kids accept the step parents and like being told what to do by them and do stuff just to upset them. There's a lot of emotional stuff that goes on when parents divorce and re-marry (especially when there are other kids involved) and it seems parents think kids can just accept it and be fine. Ever try staying with someone you know for awhile (like go to live with them while something is going on) after being on your own or living your own way for so long...how do you feel in their house? It's hard to feel comfortable because you're constantly trying to do things their way and they don't do things like you do..even simple things. Imagine being a little kid that goes from one house to another all the time and is supposed to just accept it and function and not cause any problems. Adults can't do that and be happy so why do we expect kids to? I think sometimes parents and steps have a hard time understanding that kids often feel left out and like a visitor at the non-custodial parent's house. So we can't expect them to always join in and act like things are perfectly fine. I bet you that over the next how many years the rebelling and stuff will get worse. She may then become an adult and realize she was wrong for how she treated you or she'll just have nothing to do with you. Either way, you have no control over the situation. All you can do is try to get her to join in and make sure she follows the rules but you can't make her be who you want her to be and you can't make her be like your kids.

Again, thanks to all of you! For the record, we (her Dad and I) have visited a psychologist on this issue. Two, in fact. So, they not only got my input (which I agree could very well be biased), but her Dad's as well. They both agree that her behavior and level of maturity is lagging, and that BM is doing this child a disservice in her mental development. Their advice: keep plugging away to try to raise her awareness of the real world, don't think for her, set consequences, etc. As I said before, this is difficult to do every other weekend and four holiday weeks a year!

As far as "wackyland" ... I am sure she considers OUR house that because SD's norm is her mother's house. When we approach BM about all of this, she thinks she's doing a great job in raising her daughter. And yes, BM's rules, phobias and craziness is brought to our house by SD.

For example, shopping one day we saw these cute little funky corkscrew shoe strings, which SD just loved. She didn't want to buy them because "her MOTHER wouldn't like them" ... not HER, but her mother! This is what we are up against. Well, we did buy them. She wore them, happily showing them off the entire visit (a week). Next time she came, they were gone. Mom didn't like them.

Another example: we had a function to attend that fell on BM's weekend and SD desperately wanted to come with us. She gushed for an hour about how she'd love to go, didn't care what her mother thought, she'd have so much fun, etc., etc. We talked to BM and explained the request, who then wanted to speak to SD. What do we hear? After a few minutes of SD listening to BM, we hear SD telling her that no, she didn't really want to go! How's that for being afraid of your mother? Very, very sad.

We do everything we can to make the two rotating kids (SD and my son) feel like this is THEIR home. Each kid has their own room, their own things ... which are not disturbed when they are gone. They are constantly told that they are lucky -- they have two homes, two bedrooms, (in my son's case, more friends), etc., etc. -- just like the experts say.

Do I need to lower my expectations? Probably. Do I feel this is in SD's best interest? Im not totally convinced of that. I still believe she needs exposure to "NORMAL", not just wacky and insecure. I also think that catering to her every whim is not a good thing, Martha. Telling her that I love her when she barks like a dog when I am on the phone with a client is not my idea of positive reinforcement. Yet, any scolding, even in a situation like that, sends her into sulking and tears. My original post was asking for suggestions on the situation and ideas on how to deal with my frustration. And yes, I AM frustrated. I guess the bottom line is that it is unavoidable, you canÂt fight city hall! . Is she Âtorqueing me ? Most likely.

OK  I will try very, very hard and search DEEPLY to find the silver lining, the positive  and reinforce that. I will also try to lower my expectations, even if that means viewing her as a 5 year old to preserve my own sanity.

PS for Joe -- you sound like a very together, wise man.

> Joe, I can't see why you disagreed with me saying that she might do things at her father's house because of rules at her mothers

I was agreeing with you, I think? Here:

> >But there are other things that she may not do because of the rules at her mothers house?
> I agree with nadastimer; a lot of this sounds like your SD is letting "rules in wackyland" slop over in to your house

Did I mispeak? If so, I apologize. :( Sorry.

> She gushed for an hour about how she'd love to go, didn't care what her mother thought...After a few minutes of SD listening to BM, we hear SD telling her that no, she didn't really want to go!

All sorts of reasons for this I guess -- fear of an actual physical/emotional threat; child wanting approval even from a damaged parent, because the damaged party is the main source of "love" and attention; wants/needs/thinking turned off through years of disuse and discouragement.

> Telling her that I love her when she barks like a dog when I am on the phone with a client is not my idea of positive reinforcement.

Heh-heh-heh. Would it help at all for you and the SD to exchange 'these are the things that, if you do them, are really going to make me mad' letters? (Mostly for your benefit, but she gets to write one to to mitigate her feeling dumped on.) I've been thinking that maybe if I had made a list of about 5 or ten things and given it to my oldest SS, things would have gone easier -- at least he would have known, hey, this is on the list, if I do this, I know I'm buying into some yelling down the road. Stuff (for me) like lying, being overly babyish, that sort of generic thing -- not granular stuff like 'holding your fork weird'. So anyway, if she has this list, she'll have been warned ahead of time and -- here's the cool thing -- when she does these weird things, she'll know she's CHOOSING to be punished, instead of it happening out of the blue.

(That's the thing I try to explain to my 3 year old -- even though he's way young for it -- when he starts doing bad things. "If you're throwing a fit, you're *choosing* to be sent to your room." Of course, it can be taken way too far, along the lines of convincing someone that they're to blame for all the bad things that happen to them. On the other hand, what I'm after is to reinforce at a very early age personal responsibility for actions, and ownership of consequences.)

Again, if the BM finds out about the list, might cause problems along the line of 'this person tells *me* I'm a bad mother, and here she is giving my child lists of rules' etc. Just an idea, anyway.

Joe,
I guess maybe I read it wrong..lol. I was having one of those crazy days yesterday so it's more than likely. I just read you have a 3 year old, so you know how fun some days can be!

Mom_2_4,
Again, maybe you should have added in your posts before about the psychologists. That might have proved something more to us than just reading what you had to say and maybe thinking you were being a knitpicky step parent. I'm sure some of her behavior isn't normal but again...not all that you have to say sounds weird. She's a kid. As for things like the shoe strings, honestly that was something that maybe would have happened in my household as a kid and I probably do it with my 3 year old. My mother was worried about our apperance and there were certain things she would not allow because it didn't look right or match or whatever. I also will tell my fiance' he can't wear such and such on our son because it doesn't match or they're his old clothes and we're going out somehwere nice. It's also hard to say, maybe your SD actually removed the strings herself or broke them... And honestly, I believe there isn't anything wrong with your SD being "afraid" of her mother as you call it. She's listening to her mother and doing what she says...would you rather have a kid that back talked and never listend? Then you'd be on here posting for a different reason. Most kids "fear" their parents to a point and when they don't...you've got a rebellious pain in the rear to deal with who does whatever they please.

Hey, you aren't her mother, she isn't your daughter, and you have other children who need you. My boyfriend's daughter loved me like crazy at first, but we ended up realizing we ARE NOT mother and daughter. My own daughter comes first, and I refuse to feel guilty about that any more. All kids of divorce need therapy but what good it does, I can't say, if they don't want to work at it. You would do better to get therapy for yourself than expect it to help a weird kid who has a knack for getting your attention. I sort of gave up on the "stepdaughter" (we live together) relationship and now I focus on my own daughter's needs because I am all she has. I don't ignore the other one but I don't give her equal treatment, which I tried to do for a year. Enough was never, ever, ever enough for her. You always hear people say "She's just like her mother" (or father) when the kid acts like a jerk...but maybe that's just who she is right now. She's going to grow up someday. Let her try to please you for a change, cater to you a little--even if that means no whining and screaming. And remember, you were brought into her life for a reason...other than torturing yourself. Be yourself. That's all anyone can ask of you. That's why you're in her life.
Good luck.

Hello again! Nadistimer, I try to give all our kids a certain amount of autonomy, the freedom to make decisions (as long as it isn't hurtful, obscene, or in some way destructive) such as picking clothes, haircuts, etc. My 17 year old once dyed her hair pink during the summer. It didn't hurt anyone, but she got a kick out of it. Now it's out of her system, and she had the freedom to practice her decision making and independence skills. I choose my battles wisely, for there will be many!

That's what the shoestrings were about -- autonomy. No, I don't think it was SD that decided to remove them. She LOVED them. It was definitely her mother's doing. And a glaring example of SD's lack of ability to stand up to her mother -- and by that, I don't mean disrespect, but the backbone to say what she wants and likes. And no, I wouldn't prefer backtalk, but I do think that being able to honestly communicate what you think, feel and want to those that profess to love us is highly desirable. It doesn't mean we always have to agree, but we have the freedom to express ourselves while respecting each other's opinion.

Why would a parent deny their kid the chance to assert a bit of indivuality and independence in such a harmless way? Would BM prefer that SD choose to abuse drugs or alcohol in a few years as an act of rebellion? We all know that this happens all the time. And I fear this with my SD. Her lack of ability to openly communicate with her mother will contribute to this likelihood.

Quahog, you are right. I'm not her mother. Nor am I technically responsible for her, legally or otherwise. But, I care how she turns out. I really do. And I absolutely adore her Dad, who loves her. I don't want to see him face some heartbreak in the future, either!

Mom 2 4
My ex-husband couldn't stand up for himself with his father so to compensate for being made to feel like he was unworthy, he began to drink and smoke marijuana. After we married, he father still treated him like a child and ridiculed him even in front of me. Still my ex could not stand up to his father. I tried and tried to tell him he was not the terrible person his father made him out to be, but he continued to drink, smoke and then he tried crack cocaine. All these substances made him feel like a bigger person, but of course you always come down and it never got better. Once all the substance abuse was out in the open, his father chose to blame all my ex's problems on me. My ex never stood up for me in front of his father either, hence, we are now divorced for this along with many other problems. So you have every right to be concerned about the habits your SD may pick up in order to feel better about herself because her mother seems like such a bully who can't see that she is enabling and encouraging her daughter to not be able to stand up for herself when it may really count. Keep encouraging your SD to be independent and hopefully one day she will realize that that is how she wants to be. Also keep telling her and showing her that you love her and will always be there for her. I know this is not an easy task, but she needs someone on her side.

Good luck and take care. Carol

MIStepmom, your ex sounds a bit like mine! While he was never a substance abuser, he continues to this day to be afraid of speaking his mind with his parents. And believe me, they did some horrendously obnoxious things over the years! He was always too afraid to speak up for himself, for me or for our kids. He never made anything of himself and, at age 42, lives with his mother and works a minimum wage job selling appliances. He never figured out how to show love or affection. Wonder why I left him? :-)

Perhaps that's why I'm so anal about how my SD acts -- I was married to the product of that kind of child rearing!

Good luck with your kids. Maybe your theories are working with young kids but I believe it will back fire on you when they become teens. I can't believe you are saying that it would be okay for your step daughter to stand up to her mother and fight her on a issue such as wearing different shoe strings! Maybe she likes to pick her battles wisely, too and knows something so little didn't matter? It sounds like you're expecting your SD to do stuff to her mother that you wouldn't really permit in your house. How would you like her to stand up to you on an issue she truly believes in but you don't like?

I honestly think you're knit picking your step daughter to death. All kids are different and grow up differently with parents who raise them differently. If you're so for being your own self...quit trying to change this child. Maybe this is just who she's supposed to be. You can't change a person and you aren't going to save her from the cruel world just because she now does things the way you do... some may think your behavior is wrong in the world, too. Lighten up.

Nadastimer, I guarantee you that if my kid expressed an opinion as an individual regarding something so mundane as a pair of shoestrings, I would let them have their way! I'm not advocating DISOBEDIENCE -- I'm advocating the ability to express yourself and figure out ON YOUR OWN who you are! How can anyone do that if they're constantly told what to do and how to do it? By being afraid to speak up and have youself be heard?

Regarding older kids, my 17 year old knows who SHE is, what SHE wants, and how to get there. She gets very good grades in school, has had the same part time job for 2 years now, and plans on joining the Air Force after graduation. Her own father told her that joining the military was for "trashy people" and she had the guts to tell him that this was what she wanted to do and what her goals and aspirations were. Still not being able to sway his opinion, she simply told him that this was what she wanted to do with her life. Personally, I was quite proud of her!

I don't know about you, but I'd prefer she be true to herself then buckle under to what someone else wants. She has set high goals for herself and is well on her way to achieving them. I offer her assistance and guidance, but I don't do it for her. And yes, she DOES come to me for advice and answers. We have openly discussed subjects most mothers wouldn't even touch. Why? Because we can! She feels comfortable talking to me, asking me anything that comes to mind.

If my SD expressed an opinion that was different from mine, would I be upset? Absolutely not! I'd be so thrilled that she was able to form an independent judgment!

I could be wrong here, but isn't it part of our job as parents to teach your children to become adults who can function on their own????

How would you like it if some woman came in and started saying how you were raising your children wrong and they were going to change everything about them? That is exactly what yu are doing. You do know that personality traits are genetic right? You do not seem to understand that. Quit trying to make her in your image because she is not nor will she ever be.

Oh man! Believe me, I don't want to turn her into my image! My 17 yr old has her own likes, dislikes, thoughts and feelings. We don't always agree, and that's fine with me!

I would definitely like to see my SD more independent and have the ability to think on her own, without waiting for someone else to do it for her. Is that so evil and wrong? I don't think so! I believe that the ability to stand on one's own two feet is a learned skill, and in the case of my SD, she isn't being given the opportunity to learn this skill from her BM. Our job as parents is to give our kids the chance to practice these independence skills, not hinder them by doing their thinking for them. Sorry, but Mom won't always be around to act as her brain for her, and I won't serve as surrogate-brain when she's here. I will no longer play that game. Also, two psychologists agree with me! And this is with LOTS of input from my husband, her Dad!

I get the impression that you guys think that raising kids who are unable to take care of themselves is an admirable thing! sheesh!

> I get the impression that you guys think that raising kids who are unable to take care of themselves is an admirable thing!

I don't think so -- or at least doubt that if it were true anyone would admit to it here ;). I think it's just a) the readership has built in buttons to be pushed vis a vis domineering (in their opinion) parental-types. Recreating childhood traumas and all that jazz. And b) I get the feeling (although I could be wrong) that some folks' responses are based on sort of skipping over the bit that your SD is 9. They see the bit about 'acting like three' but miss the bit about 'actually being 9' and thus the disconnect.

Again, I could be wrong.

My partner has a 10-ish daughter that lives with her dad. My partner reports the father encouraging infantile behaviors as well, although not to the extent that you're talking about. Baby talk, the girl not being allowed to socialize with boys at all even though she loves to play soccer, all sorts of shenanigans. Although she's only lived with us about 3 months of the 2 years I've been around, I saw my SD doing a bit of that when she first came, and then slowly getting rid of it when we didn't reward her for it.

The problem with thinking for yourself (one of them anyway :) ) is that it requires a whole new gestalt, a wholly different way of looking at the world, and thinking about it inside your own head. To wit -- maybe your SD will change her ways of being around you...*in order to please you*. Which is *not* qualitatively different than what she's doing now, only slightly different in the superficial observed behaviors. What you're after, and what I agree is a good thing, is for her to be able to determine what to do is *regardless of the opinions of others*. (Which is somewhat of a sticky assertion, because obviously the opinions of other people matter -- either from a 'this person knows more about this than I do' viewpoint, or a 'my actions affect others, therefore' viewpoint, or a miriad of others.)

One of the problems inherent in this (at least one I've encountered myself) is perception of reality. If the person in question doesn't *really, really* accept the reality of a situation -- ie is insulating herself in unreality to protect herself from an unbearable situation -- then personal choice doesn't matter. And changing a world view like that is hard, hard, and can only be done by the person themselves. It's the sort of things that eastern philosophies and western religions are all about.

In fact, here's something that might be of use for your SD:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385472579/qid=1035453356/

It's basically a book of zen philosophy in comic book form. Obviously, I'm not trying to foist any sort of specific philosophy or religion on anybody, least of all a 9 year old I've never met. However, I find this sort of thing both very good for think-for-your-selfishness, and also, hey, cartoons.

Everyone likes cartoons.

At the very least, I'm going to whip on you a mantra I used to say tomyself all the time. Might be useful to pass on to your SD: "Be who you want to be *all the time*." (Granted, the gotcha with this staement is 'make sure you want to be a nice person in the first place.' I'd rather *not* have sociopaths be who they wanted to be all the time.) The thing with that is it encourages continuity of soul, or of psyche. Instead of her personality being blown on the winds of other folks' demands, ie ever-changing or ever-pleasing, she should choose who she wants to be, and be that person all the time -- even inside her own head.

And also, it encourages ownership of all action and thought. You can't very well say to yourself 'I'm a nice person -- except for that bit over there, but that doesn't count because nobody I hang out with on a regular basis knows about it.' Works in reverse, too -- if you do nice things some of the time, or if you're brave some of the time, then you can't be *completely* worthless, can you?

All this may sound like a bunch of middle class no-real-problems hoohah, but it's the sort of weird convoluted stuff that sometimes goes on in people's heads. Mine, anyway. :)

Ah Joe! The voice of reason in the cold wilderness! I was beginning to think I'd just disappear into the sunset and never visit this site again for fear of being clubbed by the "evil stepmom hammer"! :-)

Your SD is lucky to have you. I am not an evil stepmom, just concerned and frustrated. Some people (our courts included!) believe that bio-moms are God, deserving of our undying respect and deference no matter what kind of a job they are doing! Just makes me want to barf. Not all parents are good, not all are doing a good job. Some are actually dysfunctional! Wow, can you imagine that??? The act of giving birth does not make us a good parent! Any woman with good plumbing can give birth.

You know, I actually have a good track record with my kids! I am very proud of my 17 year old, my 12 year old is successful in a tough private school, has a great sense of humor, tons of friends and is so much fun to be around. My 3 year old is definitely her own person with a huge vocabulary and a burgeoning sense of adventure. Am I dysfunctional? If you study those three kids I don't think so. Then along comes SD. Afraid, weepy, dependent, needing direction for everythng she does.

Joe, when you say your SD was doing the same kinds of things, then stopped after that behavior was NOT rewarded ... therein lies our problem. She does not live with us. She is here every other weekend + two weeks each quarter. Clearly, not enough time to make a huge difference. I checked out the book you suggested. I'm afraid it might be a bit over my SD's head, she would likely not get the nuances, but I still may get it for her. Couldn't hurt. Thanks for the tip.

What I think I hear you saying is that kids need to have the wisdom to know when it's OK to be an individual and when to listen to adults. That's part of our job, isn't it? To impart that wisdom -- by guiding them while letting them be themselves!

> Not all parents are good, not all are doing a good job.

Tell me about it. If I wasn't somewhat paranoid, I'd go into a big long rant about the shenanigans my doofus-in-law gets up to. (My partner's ex.) On the plus side, he means well, at least for his son. On the minus side he's a dunderhead, and his dunderheadishness tends to leak all over everything in nasty, monetarily expensive ways.

> Then along comes SD. Afraid, weepy, dependent, needing direction for everythng she does.

Is there anything she has unmitigated success at that you can encourage and foster a sense of competance? My oldest stepson, for instance, tends towards helplessness -- but he's very very good artistically with his hands -- sculpture, etc. When he was able to sell some of his small clay figurines for cash money, you could almost see the lightbulb go on in his head. Plus -- with that particular example -- it brings in all sorts of other things to be competent with -- business plans, deadlines, customer relations, advertising, accounting, etc and so forth. Competence breeding further competence. Have either you or your husband observed her being competent, or gifted, or even just happy doing anything in particular?

If you do encourage it, you might need to be sneaky about it so she doesn't *know* you're encouraging it. If she knows you are, it might trip the automatic 'I can't' button in her head. Dunno.

I know you said playing with the smaller kids she was happy, but that's not quite it unless you can turn it around somehow, like teaching her how to babsit or something along those lines. You said she craves attention -- is she interested in acting at all? Or dance?

Actually, here's something you could teach her how to do in 2 weeks that is kind of silly, and yet is mega-confidence building -- juggling. You can learn a simple 3-ball cascade in way less than 2 weeks. There are several tricks to learning -- practice 1 ball for a while, to get used to looking out of the corners of your eyes, and the height and distance of the arc; practice 2 balls as if there was a phantom 3rd ball you were juggling; practice 3 balls right next to a wall so that you have a built in limit to throwing away from your body. Juggling works wonders -- it was basically how I got through being a nerd during, oh, practically all my life. I may have gotten the crap beat out of me for the third afternoon in a row, but by god, I was going to learn how to juggle 5 balls tonight! And the cool thing is -- it's a way to learn how to work with others (passing, practicing, learning), it's a way to impress others (her need for attention), and, when she's older, it's a way to meet other people -- clubs and so on.

That sort of thing. Any kind of circusy skill is a good confidence builder -- walking on your hands, riding a unicycle, walkingon stilts, that sort of thing. Juggling, I think, is the easiest. You could give her a set of bean bags to practice with at her mothers -- with the stipulation of only doing it outside, of course. Asking the mother first would prob be politic, as well. :)

The problem with being helpless is that it has it's own rewards so there's not necessarily a motive to change. Like the old joke about the grandmother and the lightbulb -- "No, it's ok, leave me alone in the dark, I don't care." The goal of helplessness -- where it's artificial, as opposed to the Timmy's-got-a-broken-leg-at-the-bottom-of-the-well real variety -- is to create a situation where you have a captive group of folks to play court to you.

> What I think I hear you saying is that kids need to have the wisdom to know when it's OK to be an individual and when to listen to adults.

Yeah -- and also to learn to recognize the times when they need to tell the little voice in their heads telling them to do or not to do something to go stuff it. Or more to the point, developing self control and being able to accurately evaluate problems (is this a serious or a not serious problem), and their responses to the problems (does this problem warrant my reaction to it, both the specific reaction and the severity of my reaction).

But that's what adolescence is all about, I guess.

I mentioned in an earlier post about not getting mad
at babies when they cry because, hey, they're just doing their job? Well, one of the jobs of older kids is to try to get away with things, and *our* job, ironically, is to keep them from doing *their* job. :) (I didn't come up with that one; that's my partner's. :)

Kind of like middle management.

>The voice of reason in the cold wilderness!
Don't pass it around. Voices in the wilderness tend to get rewarded with locust buffets, or beheadings.

Joe, we've got to stop meeting like this! :-)

About the only thing my SD shows any interest in is watching old Disney movies and coloring. We try to get her interested in other things (sometimes by taking her along when we bring the other kids to classes or practice). We've tried dancing, gymnastics, sports, all kinds of things. In another post, I recounted the story of my 3 year old's dance class, how SD insisted that she was not interested, but she proceeded to shout out and draw attention to herself while the class was in session. On the one hand, she's not interested -- on the other, she appeared to be jealous of the 3 year old's enthusiasm and participation in the class. She tried everything she could divert attention from the tap-dancing tykes to herself. What a dichotomy!

About the only thing I think she'd take an interest in is crafts, given her love of solitary activities and coloring. Maybe we'll do something along those lines this weekend, aside from the obligatory pumpkin carving. And this would definitely be a GIVE on my part, because Im not a crafty person and prefer more active, participatory , fast-paced activities.

A question. One of my issues has always been that when you do things with her, she then becomes attached to you at the hip. Literally. Follows you around every minute (cant even go to the bathroom in peace!) and expects more and more, constant attention. Gets bent out of shape if you hold a conversation with someone other than her. Doesnt understand the concept of doing some things together and some things by yourself. Cant grasp the fact that there are others in the household who need time and attention as well, and sometimes these things dont or cant include her. How do I make her understand that when someone isnt paying attention to her, it doesnt mean they DONT care? That when someone DOES care about her, it doesnt mean they need or should spend 24/7 with them?

OK guru what do you think?

How does she do with lets-make-a-deal activities? You can have an hour of my time doing X, but then I need a couple hours doing Y? I think you said she doesn't handle that very well, though...

A bit of it can be understood if your house falls under 'vacation' in her head, sort of...

Can you talk to her bio-mom at all? Regarding your SD's interests?

I'm not quite sure how to turn this specifically to your situation (I'm thinking, I'm thinking...) but we've taught -- or rather, pseudo taught; it hasn't come up in a while so I think he's forgotten about it -- the three year old a concept called "playing tao". For a while he was really into destroying things; the worst was he ripped apart the lace under curtain in his room. I went a little bit around the bend as you can imagine, but there's only so much blue in the face screaming you can do if that tactic isn't working. So I thought to myself -- he wants to destroy things; let's let him destroy things in a controlled environment. So I told him the next time he wants to do something like that, tell mommy he wants to 'play tao' and we'll let him run around in the back yard pouring water everywhere, or tearing up paper, or something. Comes from the idea of avoiding floods not by building higher levees, but by dredging the river bed. Controlling somebody by encouraging & channelling what they wanted in the first place..

I'd say it worked 75% of the time. :)

Like I said though, can't think of a way to apply that to your specific case..... You could ask her to write 'what comes next' stories for Disney characters, and tell her she needs to spend at least 20 minutes on each picture or chapter or whatever. Then, after each one, you could spend 10 minutes giving her ideas on the next thing to do.

Still a time sink, but maybe a more controlled one.

How about helping with chores, fixing tasks or cooking? This has 2 possible benefits -- either she's making herself useful and at the same time feeling good about being competent, or she's turned off by the whole thing (shades of me 'helping' my dad grease the points on the car) and goes away for a while. I advise either physical labor, or drain cleaning. :)

In an aside, the lightbulb in my ceiling light just fell out of its socket. What kind of a light lets the bulb fall out of its socket? Sheesh.

What happens if you tell her you need privacy for whatever , give her a 3 strikes rule, and then send her to her room? Does she throw fits, etc?

Ah, here we go. I probably owe Richard Simmons some sort of royalty fee on this -- ever hear of Deal-a-Meal? Set of cards, 'buy' meal components over the course of a day or a week, or whatever? Ok, how about something of that sort -- activity vouchers. (Might have to bring the whole fam in on this.) That way she could get, say, 4 hours of vouchers gratis over the weekend to redeem for folks' time, and then the ability to earn more for trying out new things -- really trying that is. And of course the ability to lose them for punishment.

Actually, this is kind of fun -- it'd be like having a family currency. You could get your SD to design and color them in. You could call them JoeBucks. :)

Of course, this is very involved, and requires her to buy into it, otherwise it won't work. But, in reality, it's basically just creating a plausible justification for ignoring her sometimes, and a reward system for good behavior. It's the plausibility that's the key -- if you can think of easier ways to credibly establish plausibility, then go for that. (Engineering term -- KISS -- Keep It Simple, Stupid.)

The accompanying you into the bathroom thing is slightly odd, unless she's used to open house bathrooms in her mom's house. I know ours can get to be grand central station at times. Does her BioMom pay *no* attention to her at home?

You know, it all sounds like my 3 year old. Which harkens back to the retarded development thing we were talking about before. Have you brought up the needing-constant-attention issue with the therapist(s) you saw? Might be some useful stuff on this on the web, particularly if you look up info on toddlers or preschoolers.

So you said before that you talk to clients at home...do you run a business out of your house? If so, are there any low-end jobs you could get her to do? Some relatives of mine run a flower shop; when I spent vacations there, they always gave me jobs like filling the little tubes with water, and stuffing bills into envelopes, sticking stamps on, dumping trash, processing checks, sort of thing, up to low-level bookkeeping when i was older. Anything like that possible?

Ah ha. how about this -- if you can afford it and find one, find an old clunker computer that somebody's throwing away and maybe teach her or give her a book about beginning programming. Basic, or something -- even perl. My partner did that for her older son and man he liked that. That way you could buy in to checking over her programming if she buys in to trying to learn.

Can you combine the crafts plus the fast-paced stuff so you wouldn't go out of your mind with Femo clay? ie, She could design a set of playing cards that the fam could then play with. Or -- if this isn 't more trouble than it's worth -- she could paint a kite that you'd then fly. Or something like that -- she could do artwork on something that would then be put into practical use by the fam. Might make her feel more part of the group -- which would make your job easier as she might be more willing to play ball. Metaphorically speaking.

And lastly, and man you're going to hate this I bet, you could get her into War Hammer or something similar. She could start out painting the miniatures and making the little model battlefields and such, which leads inexhorably to hanging out in the shops and playing with other kids, which is what you're after. On the plus side, the stores often have painting workshops in house; on the minus side, it's a ^$&$&(&^ expensive hobby. Not quite as bad as model trains but right up there.

Any of that help?

Maybe also -- are there any neighborhood activity centers for kids, or reading clubs at the library, or any way to encourage her to create friendships with other kids her age in your area? I figure she's not a friends kind of person, although you didn't explicitly say so?

She may simply be a person with those traits. I have known several very similar to what you describe and they are extremely successful. It may not be that she does not know how to be spontaneous as much as she doesn't like it. I have a friend that makes a list each morning with time slots for each and follows that list come hell or high water. She is an executive for a major corporation and a very successful woman. Too rigid for "fly by the seat of my pants" me, but that is what has made her a success. When I read your post where you said she enjoyed crafts (or did someone else say that?) I thought of the Girl Scouts. Her basic personality will not change because she visits you for 4 days a month, however, you can explain to her what behavior is not acceptable. The rules in our local elementary school were that you could not engage in behavior that was : disturbing, disruptive or disrespectful. The behavior you described about the dance class was all three. You could sit her down and explain how it was disturbing to ALL the children in the class as well as the instructor to have their class time interrupted and that they were in the process of doing something that she disrupted with her behavior and how it showed disrespect to the instructor as well as all the children and their parents that paid money for them to have this lesson and how it will not be tolerated and so "WE" must punish you to show you how seriously unacceptable this behavior was. You don't have to lock her in the basement without supper, but you can take away Disney or any other favorite activity. Be diligent in following with disciplinary action after every such incident and S L O W L Y , you will see that this behavior will decrease. As for those personality traits that you don't like ... sorry, its too bad. That's her personality. Not everyone should have to ride a bike or be adventurous if they don't want to. Sometimes it takes more independence of thought and self assertion to say no to an activity than to go along with it like you do. She will never be like you. Support who she is when her behavior is not hurtful to others. If she likes crafts .. there are tons of things to do - especially this time of the year. Plan things with her if she likes structure. Maybe a little structure will even help an adventurous, confident, independent girl such as yourself. You can learn from each other instead of being adversaries. You're the adult. You can set the mood. Maybe your attitude toward her is more obvious than you think and that is why she strikes back.

Hello all, again!

Joe, part of the problem is that her BM gives my SD ALL her attention. When SD interrupts a conversation, all stops so SD can speak. BM picks out her clothes and her activities for her. Tells her what to do every minute of the day.

As far as me giving her small tasks in my company, that would be difficult in that my business is consultant-oriented. My database is a sophisticated software program. So, no can do.

And Rosie, you are right in that I just have to be more accepting of differing personality traits in her. But know that when it comes to things like riding a bike, my SD is just TOO AFRAID TO EVEN TRY. This is a common element in her personality on many levels.

I can see that you may know someone so rigid who has made it in the biz world, but since I have been in the "people" side of business for 20 years now, I have also seen many people like this fail because they can't adapt to change, they alienate others with their lack of flexibility, and often can't see all alternatives available to them in managing people and projects. I also know that people like this are generally not very popular with their staffs (and typically have a very high turnover rate in their departments).

And you are also right, Rosie, when you say that perhaps we can learn from each other. To that end, I have made a promise to myself to make a Herculean effort to do this.

I think you two will do fine in the long run when each of you embrace each others differences. As for staff, jobs, etc ... there are many jobs that require different skills and traits. Not all jobs are focused in an office environment. I work out of the home and have only phone contact with prospective tenants. I am not a team worker. It drives me nuts when everyone isn't putting in the same 150% that I am!!! LOL!!! It is also very surprising to me to see people that I knew from childhood now that they are grown and see what they have become. One little guy in our class who was afraid of his shadow and stammerred and choked when he had to recite - became a city Council Member. Our valedictorian is a bank teller. My little sister, (wild thing)is an RN and I shudder at the thought of her at my bedside if I was ill, but she is doing beautifully and loves her job in intensive care. If anyone had ever told me she would be a nurse, I would have bet all I had against those odds. I would have suspected that instead, she would be the next Evil Knievel!!! The experiences SD gains from both of her Moms may make her a most successful adult. Time will tell. Differences are good. It would be one boring world if everyone was alike. You seem to be a very intelligent woman and I know that you will do well by her. Life is long and when all is said and done, you will probably find that she is a treasure in your life because of all the effort and affection you gave.