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What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

Posted by doodleboo (My Page) on
Fri, Oct 24, 08 at 14:10

This topic came up in another thread and I didn't want to highjack so heres my experience with the last name drama.

Jonathan's Ex kept his last name with the excuse that she didn't want her last name to be different than her kids. OK. Fine. I'm married to him now not her so that doesn't bother me. It drives Jonathan INSAINE however for one very specific reason. He doesn't want her to ger pregnant again and then her wind up with another kid that isn't his but has his last name. He thinks people will assume he is still seeing her and they have had another child and that really bugs him. I don't necessarily want her naming other children not related to us after our family name either. Afterall she is NO LONGER A P___________. She divorced out of this family.

As far as not wanting to have a different name than the girls...that semi-baffles me as well. It seems she would be more interested in being involved than keeping the names the same. Her priorities are a little un-balanced there IMHO.

I understand that some people just don't want to go through to red tape of changing their names back over but it really can get complicated when the ex-wife starts having other kids and the man remarries and THEY start having kids and what not.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

Doodle,

I see all of your points (*especially* the one about the rather skewed priorities of it being more important to her to keep the *name* than the actual *connection* to her daughters) but really there's not much that can be done about it. I don't know if that's one of those things that could have been made a part of the divorce agreement or not, but outside of it being a mutually-agreed-on condition of divorce in that context, it's not going to be possible for anyone but her to change it. Of course, you know this. The only thing you can do about it is adjust how you personally deal with it, how you explain it to others and de-invest it with the same meaning she wants it to have. This is what I'm starting to think is the only option REALLY in my control in the case of my Dad and the pictures of me: if *I* don't allow the *removal* of my photos to have the power to negate ME, the person, then the removal of the photos *can't* negate me, no matter how much SM may wish it could. So in your situation, you can choose to not let exW's use of the same last name MEAN one lick more than any other person walking the earth who just so happens to have that last name. That doesn't have to mean that the last name loses its specialness for YOU, but that YOU decide who else to include in that 'specialness' loop regarding the name itself. The phrase "since divorced" or "no longer related by marriage" seems especially useful to add to her last name when/if you ever choose to use her last name to refer to her. It's a bit more cumbersome than if she simply had a different name, but since only she can control that (and she may not change it ever), it's worth the extra syllables just to de-invest it of the same meaning that she may want to think it has.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

Snicker. I know what you're talking about. I changed my name back, but my daughter kept her dad's name. I considered keeping his name but would NEVER give another child I had his name, I really don't understand why someone would do that, especially since someday someone would have to explain to the kid why they got a last name that has nothing to do with them... but whatever. People are freaky weird sometimes.

When my daughter asks about our names I just say that I have my daddy's name, and she has her daddy's name. She accepts that and has no issue.

Is Jonathan's name fairly common? I can understand his feeling weird about the situation.

In my DH's situation, the mother remarried, and as far as we know she kept Dh's name. Bizarre. But we don't know what the new baby is named.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

When I had my kids, I wasn't married. I gave my first son my last name for obvious reasons. But, I feel that kids should have their father's last name, whether the parents are married or not. I can't explain why I believe that, it's something I grew up believing.

My parents divorced 25+ years ago and my mom still has his last name. When he married my SM 20+ years ago, she took his name. I did find it odd that she was using her first husband's last name at the time she married my dad. She had been married once or twice since being married to her first husband. I think my dad was her 3rd or 4th husband. (one was a whirlwind that only lasted a couple months) I suppose she may have gone back to her first husband's name after each divorce because that was the name her children had. My mom says she'll never marry again & will keep his name.

My SD's mom is still married to her first husband & her older daughter has his last name. She went back to using her maiden name (even though legally, her name has never been changed back) and when she had SD, she gave her my DH's last name, so none of them have the same name.

I wonder how the father of a child would feel or what he would do if the mother wanted to give a child of his, another man's (her ex's) surname?

I agree that names are not important except when worrying what OTHERS are going to think... it's kinda like families that are chaotic but have that lovely family portrait done to show the world they are 'harmonious' because they only care about what the rest of the world thinks. The relationship between the family members is much more important than having the same name... in my opinion.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

It is annoying -- My son's StepMom and I are generally on very good terms, but if I'm being completely honest, I have to admit that it does annoy me that when we attend events at DS's school (we go together so we both hear the same 'story' and can make joint decisions), *she* has my son's last name (after marrying Dad) and I don't! So it seems the teacher's logical default premise is that *she* is the mom, not me... Of course, since we attend together, we can clarify "Mom/StepMom" which soothes my ego.

Now Hubby's Ex kept his last name and has held on tight! It made sense when her kids were little, but once they both reached adulthood and she decided to marry again, you think she'd take new Hubby's name? Nope. And it's not because she's got any great career. In fact, a name change might help her dodge a few creditors...


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

I kept my ex's last name( I asked him how he felt about it and he said it was my name for 21 years, so keep it) so I hyphenated my new husbands last name with mine. They were both ok with that.

DH'S ex kept his last name and gave her new baby the same one. he doesnt like it because she acts like its DH's baby to everyone, unless they ask... She talks about people having kids from different dads and she doesnt want people to talk about her..


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

His last name is not at all common which makes it even ickier...hahaha. Plus he is really well known in our surrounding area because of all the band involvement and he is known by everyone (except family) as his last name. His last name IS his name. If I was to refer to him as Jonathan to anyone else the respone would be "Who?" If I said P______, they'd say "OOOHHHH, OK. His names's Jonathan?" HAHAHAHA. I think that's why it bothers him. He hates being associated with her honestly and THAT name will forever associate him to her since he is so "famous" around here...for lack of better words. Notorious is more like it:)

If she were to get pregnant and give the kid his name and put a birth announcement in the paper everyone in the surrounding seven counties would think "Oh look. Jonathan and that crazy girl must of gotten back together. They're having another kid. What happened to Doodle?" No joke. I can't say I'd appreciate that either really to be honest.

Other than that it doesn't bug me. I feel her intentions are lame because obviously she isn't too worried about what's good for the girls but even so the name doesn't lose it's meaning for me. I am still Mrs. P__________, legally and sppiritually so her keeping the name can't change that. I was just wondering if anyone else had the same concerns as far as new kids cropping up.

Let's just hope she has the since to not name future children after her EX....YUCK! LOL.


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More replies

Cat

"DH'S ex kept his last name and gave her new baby the same one. he doesnt like it because she acts like its DH's baby to everyone, unless they ask... She talks about people having kids from different dads and she doesnt want people to talk about her.."

This is one of those situations where the woman is just wrong for keeping the name. You ASKED your EX and everything before deciding to keep his name. You were very considerate and there wasn't any selfish or creepy intentions behind your decision. I think Amanda KNOWS it bugs J and that's part of the reason she's like a pitbull when it comes to changing her name back. Plus it was her 15 seconds of fame since he is well known.

It's like the same reason Ivanka never changed her name from Trump. It's all she's known for...being married to a rich guy but in Amanda's case it's being married to the super talented guitarist who has toured with crazy famous people. Sad and pathetic really.

Sweeby

"Now Hubby's Ex kept his last name and has held on tight! It made sense when her kids were little, but once they both reached adulthood and she decided to marry again, you think she'd take new Hubby's name? Nope. And it's not because she's got any great career. In fact, a name change might help her dodge a few creditors..."

Again this is creepy if not hillarious:) The kids are grown and she's re-married and still kept your husbands name. That's a little strange to me. Dodging creditors would be worth the change alone!!! Those guys are like zombies.

In Amanda's case it might help her to dodge a few warrants...lol. That isn't really funny I guess but laughter is the best medicine and all.


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Ima

"I agree that names are not important except when worrying what OTHERS are going to think... it's kinda like families that are chaotic but have that lovely family portrait done to show the world they are 'harmonious' because they only care about what the rest of the world thinks. The relationship between the family members is much more important than having the same name... in my opinion."

I agree with you on this. She shouldn't be worried about the name but rather worried about being a good mother. That's the important thing. The girls don't give a dang whoes name is whoes but I know they miss their mom.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

Doodle .... let's just hope she has the sense not to HAVE any future children YUCK!!!


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Serenity

We know we can't make her change it. He tried. LOL. The specialness isn't gone from the name but you are right, it does become cumbersome to explain. Around here (the deep deep south) people assume if you share the last name you are married so if he is ever filling out any paperwork that has her name on it he always makes it clear he is no longer married to her for fear that someone will assume.

It bugs him more than me. Where as I look at it as a desperate attempt to keep a tie he looks at it like a possible social/legal issue. He trully doesn't want to be associated with her and there's no way around it if she keeps the name. I guess it would bug me too if I was a guy and an EX I despised refused to surrender my name after made my life hell for three years, cheated on me and dumped my kids by the wayside. Maybe if she was a decent person and her reason were legit it wouldn't bug him as much.


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And how...

Psuedo

You are so so so so right. YUCK YUCK YUCK


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

Cat,

The ironic thing about her giving her baby his last name so people won't know.... sure, strangers won't know because they have the same name, but I would think the people that know her well (family/friends), whose opinions might/should matter more to her, would know it's not his child. Perhaps she hasn't thought of those close to her that know the truth, thinking less of her for giving another child her ex's last name.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

My mom kept her married name when she divorced my dad because it was our (kids') name. 27? 28? years ago. She still has it. But, it's also been her name her entire adult life (she married at 17), which I suspect is also part of the reason she's never changed it. But she refuses to be called Mrs. Lastname. Firstname Lastname, or if absolutely necessary, Ms. Lastname... she's not trying to look like she's still married, just kept the name. I'm sure if she and Dude were to get married, which they occasionally claim they're going to do, she'd take his... sometimes she uses it anyway if it's more convenient for her or easier than explanations... I know the local YMCA already thinks she's Mrs. Dude for their family membership...

My SM on the other hand, kept her maiden name. Which, when I was a teen, led to the opposite of sweeby's problem; I would occasionally have to explain that my mom with the same last name as my dad was NOT his wife and my stepmom with a different last name from my dad WAS his wife. So I don't think it matters *what* people do, at some point, someone's gonna have some explaining to do.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

I don't think it's even that uncommon for people to hang on to the prestige or reputation of an ex...
but I bet everyone sees through it.

& sometimes I think people don't want to admit that it's over, that it was miserable while it lasted, that they really did split up & move on.

When Sonny Bono died, Cher carried on as though she were a grief-stricken widow...
much to the dismay of the actual widow!


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

Ahhh, the last name topic....this has been on my mind a lot lately.

My DD has MY last name. Her bio-father is not in the picture and when she was born it just seemed natural for her to have my last name.

DH and I got married a month ago and I haven't really decided what to do about his name/my name. I want to have his name but---and don't laugh, I know this sounds stupid--it really does just BOTHER ME to think of me suddenly having a different last name than my daughter. We have ALWAYS had the same last name.

BUT--DH and I would like to have a baby and that baby will have DH's last name, and will be different from mine...I don't want that, either.

So for now--I haven't done anything legally. On school stuff, and cards, I hyphenate the two names.

I think we will probably have DH adopt my DD in a year or so and then DD and I will BOTH change our names.

On a sidenote--my parents divorced 10 years ago (after 23 years of marriage) and my mom kept his last name. I can understand that--she had been a _____ for so long that I can see why it felt more like HER name than her maiden name. BUT she remarried two years ago and she STILL hasn't changed it! THAT I think is weird and I always wonder what her NEW husband thinks about her having her EX-HUSBAND'S last name!


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

X wife is entitled to keep his name if she wants. Doenst need excuses. Whether she is known professionally, doesnt want to explain to teachers, doesnt matter. I changed my name back, and X was shocked first time he called me at work and I answered phone (where I work, it is SOP you answer your phone with first name, last name). It would bother me if he remarried, and his SO used his new name, and she didnt make it clear to teachers etc that she was not DDs mother.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

Really dont think its creepy or sinister or trying to try to hang on to prestige to use Exs name..Kept Exs name after remarriage,main reason son has same name(even tho he s grown), no connection to ex whatsoever, had the name for more than half my adult life, was given option to change to maiden in divorce papers, chose not to....Convenient, the tangle with credit , property ,taxes whatever seemed more logical..Do use hypen, and married name informally,however DHs ex does not know I use my former name 95% of the time, and when I was introduced in her earshot as Mrs...her name also, she looked like she was punched in the face..I could see it affected her deeply...But it certainly is exs choice to keep it or go back to maiden, but after a certain age , its seems sort of foolish....


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

Dotz, I think whether it is foolish depends on a lot of issues, including how long someone has been married, actiivity in community, remarriage, etc.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

Not exactly the same, but I DIDN'T take my husband's name when we married. I sometimes hyphenate for simplicity for teachers, doctors, etc, but never legally changed my name. My son would have been the only one with a different name (my maiden name, as I wasn't married to his father), and I didn't want that for him at that time. My SS & SD both have my DH's name, of course, as does our DD5.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

I kept my ex's name, I didn't know I had a choice and I would have opted to keep the name the kids had. If the kids and I had different names it would have been embarrassing for them to be explaining "why".

I think I would have kept the last name even without kids. I hated my maiden name, was glad to get rid of it.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

When DH and his ex divorced ex kept his name as it was 'very important to her' to keep that connection to her daughter. I also took DH's name, which caused come confusion at the school as I'm an active volunteer and mom never has been. Someone once asked her if she was my sister - ouch.

What stuck me as funny was when she re-married she took hub's name. Guess that connection wasn't so 'very important' anymore, huh?


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

When I married X and changed my last name, I wasn't the only one in his family with the same name. His niece has same name as I do. So the name thing was weird already.

When we divorced, he spitefully requested I change my name back to my maiden name. It's even in the papers. But I didn't want to change it because of my DS. So I haven't changed it and don't plan to until I remarry (soon, I hope).

If I were to get pregnant, I would never give a child the last name I still have from X. I would give the child its father's last name. If that isn't an option, I would give the child my maiden last name, if it's possible.

I will, however take FDH's last name when we get married. I CAN'T WAIT to get rid of this last name! It's like a constant reminder of the hell my marriage was.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

When I married my ex, I took his last name. His ex-wife had kept his last name. When she got married, she took her new husband's last name. His ex never seemed to mind that I had the same last name as her before she remarried...she already knew it wasn't that great to be married to him. (I guess I should have interviewed her first.) Anyway, we got along fine, and sometimes I would even go to parent/teacher conferences and stuff with her when ex couldn't attend, and it was never a problem. She was very involved, and everyone knew she was their mother, not I.

When I got divorced, I kept my ex's last name...just easier to have the same last name as your child, although I did constantly correct people who called me Mrs. Ex's Last Name, and often wished I had just changed it back to my maiden.

When I had my second child to my current husband, before we were married, I gave her my husband, her father's, last name. I would NEVER have given her my ex's last name. I even contemplated giving her my maiden name, but her daddy, my current husband, won out, and she has his last name.

When we got married, I really wanted to just keep my ex's name, but DH was adamant that I not do that, and I succombed to his wishes. I didn't want to keep ex's name because it's my older daughter's last name really -- as I had learned that it didn't make anything easier to have the same last name as her, but rather it just irritated me when people would call me Mrs. Ex's Last Name -- but rather because it was such a pain in the butt to change it. When I got married the first time, I was young and had nothing in my name. I think I had one checking account to change my name on. When I married DH, I had insurance policies, bank accounts, investment accounts, loan accounts, the whole nine yards. We've been married two years now, and I still find things where I need to change my name. Had I gone back to my maiden name after my divorce, I certainly would not have changed my name when I got married to DH.

On a side note, when I changed my last name to DH's, my DD with ex asked if she could change hers too. She very rarely sees my ex and just wanted to feel like a full member of our family. Just after we were married a year, we were getting ready to do a step-parent adoption and she could have changed her name, but no, ex shows up and wants to play daddy. Now it looks like he's tired of that, so I guess we'll wait another year for him to be gone and then do the SP adoption. When DD speaks of "dad", she's talking about my husband, not my ex.

Also, my DH has a daughter, but he was never married to her mother. SD has DH's last name. Her mother is still unmarried and has her maiden name. I know that neither SD or her mom like it when people assume I'm her mother. When SD's BM fills out papers for school and things like that, she just leaves the father line blank, as if he's dead or something. DH always has to go to school or where ever and let them know that he exists and wants to be in the loop and places me on her pickup list in case of emergencies. Occasionally, SD's BM will fill out forms stating that SD's last name is the same as hers, even though legally it's not, which does cause problems when DH goes to set the record straght sometimes.

Now, not related to me personally, and not even really stepfamily related, but I have a friend who was married for nine years. They never had any children. During their marriage, her career really blossomed. When they divorced, she kept his last name. When she remarried, she kept ex's last name. Her DH is very sweet and understanding of the fact that her name is her business and to change it would call for a lot of explaining and sending out notices to clients and such.

So, to answer your question, I don't know if I really have an opinion of last names after divorce, but I guess it's just to each her own. I'm guessing that you can't really control what she does, so you just have to try to not let it bother you.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

My DH's Ex left him & the kids before they finished high school and moved 300 miles away. He tried to get her to change her name back but she refused. We married 5 years later and because she wasn't around it was no big deal. Now that she's old and has nothing she has moved back here for her kids to take care of her (the ones she ran off & left) so now we have the same name in a city where there is only a couple other people with our name. At least she didn't have any more kids and she never re-married. If I should be widowed and decided to re-marry I "think" I wouldn't change my name this time. I've had this name for 24 years and there would be too much stuff to have to change.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

Justnomarthat, you want to talk about confusion. I gave my sons simple names so they would not have people mispronouncing and spelling their names wrong all of their lives. Well, all the names could be first or last names, I was call Mrs Scot or Mrs Alan, both first names and sometime Mrs "correct name". When I married my husband, my first name and middle initial was the same as his ex's and his sister in law and his own sister. He and his son had the same name and initial. We had credit problems because of those names. We used the same pharmacy as she did and he had a prescription fill, he ended up with her premarin. It went on and on. LOL


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

Maybe there is something else going on that I'm missing, but isn't it a stretch to be worried about something that hasn't happened? Is there a reason to think she would get pregnant out of wedlock and then give the child her name and not the father's? Most unmarried women seem to give the baby the father's name.

You say she's nuts. Maybe that is the real source of the stress. That he never really knows what embarrassing thing she will do.

If it bothered your DH that she was going to keep his name he should have negotiated during the divorce to have her change it. Not unheard of.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

I never found any of this to be important. I kept X's name. i am not remarried, so i still have his last name. at first i didn't think of changing it, just didn't occur to me, and now it would be too funny. I had it for so long that i am known everywhere by that name. My art work is known by that name, all of my degrees are on that name etc. I got used to the name and have very litle connection to my maiden name. my maiden name is very long, like 12 letters, hard to spell and impossible to pronounce.

of course if i would remarry, i would have a different name. as about children... i would not have children unless i am married. so of course my kids would not have X's name.lol

X is remarried and his new wife is also Mrs.D. i do not know if it would bother her. X knows i kept his name ofc course. but I do not know if she knows and if she cares. i certainly not changing my name now.


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funny name story

I had a college professor Dr. Zeppelin. she hated her X husband, didn't want to keep his name, but she was married for too long to get back to her maiden name. she was big led Zeppeling fan, so she asked the judge to allow her to change her name after divorce. She was allowed to take name of Zepellin. haha she was very excentric lady.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

FD, I was married for over 25 years, and went back to my maiden name.

Your never too old. As long as you arent chaning you name in an attempt to defraud etc, it will be allowed.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

KKNY, that's what I thought too. You can pay the $50 bucks and change your name to anything you want, including your former last name. Kind of bizarre that a judge would allow Zepellin rather than her actual name...


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

Oh, the name thing can get so difficult. DH's ex remarried a month after they divorced and gave birth to that man's child a few months later. She, her DH and their daughter have her DH's last name, while my 2 DSSs have my DH's last name. DH was looking at DSS's church directory on-line and about blew a gasket when he saw DSSs pictured with BM, her DH and their daughter under the caption, "The [EX's DH's last name] Family," followed by their first names." (I explained to DH that DSSs ARE part of that family, as that is both their mom and step-dad's last name, and he calmed down, but I think it still hurt him because it left the impression that DSSs were BM's DH's sons, which I truly think BM wanted.) Not long before that, BM had put a wooden plaque beside their front door that said "The [new last name]Family" and I thought that was insensitive b/c not all members of the household had that last name. Shortly after that, the younger DS (who was about 5 then) actually referred to himself with BM's new last name, which DH corrected.

In my own divorce, luckily, I had no children with my EX. But I kept his last name because I am a professional and established my career with that name. Also, I was optimistic that I would meet someone else and remarry (which I did!) and I didn't want to have to change it once again!


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

Well everyone seems to agree the name thing can get WHOADIE confusing...hahahaha. A few replies here really fast.

Sylvia-

HAHAHAHA on the Sonny nad Cher thing. I would of been a little more than annoyed had I been Sonny's widow as well.

Sue-

"Maybe there is something else going on that I'm missing, but isn't it a stretch to be worried about something that hasn't happened? Is there a reason to think she would get pregnant out of wedlock and then give the child her name and not the father's? Most unmarried women seem to give the baby the father's name."

Yes. Unfortunatly this is precisely something this nut would do. If you read some earlier posts youll see she is an unstable addict with emotional issues. We are counting down the days till she gets pregnant again and you can bet whoever it's by she won't stay with. It'll be some random junkie she's living with at the moment. Sad I know.

KKNY-

"Dotz, I think whether it is foolish depends on a lot of issues, including how long someone has been married, actiivity in community, remarriage, etc."

I think you are right. In AManda's case it IS TOTALLY FOOLISH. She was only married to J barely three years and her reasoning she gives for not changing it back is she wants the same name as her kids. The funny thing is she is an absent parent so what the hell does she care if she has the same name as her kids? If they had been married for 15+ years and she was involved I could understand.

I'm sorry but I also don't understand women who ger re-married and still keep the ex's name. I can't imagine how the new husband's must feel about that.


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The one exception

"I'm sorry but I also don't understand women who ger re-married and still keep the ex's name. I can't imagine how the new husband's must feel about that."

The case of professional name would over ride this. I understand if you are a career woman changing your name could become very confusing to clients.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

As to Sonny and Cher, my opinion is he was a no-talent who never would have gotten anywhere without Cher and he and his widow should not complain anything re Cher.


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kkny

I agree he was a no-talent hahahaha. But out of respect for teh widow Cher shouldn't haev made such a huge fuss over it. The woman's husband was dead, talented or not, and Cher kindof made a spectacal of her self over it. The sense of intitlment should be put on the back burner in the case of a death.


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kkny

kkny of course it is allowed to change names. It wasn't why i didn't change it. I just never saw a reason for it. It is just a name. Maybe if I would be angry at X i would have some negative connection to a name, but I don't. I honestly would find it funny to change it to maden name now when i was divorced for that long. I also wanted to have the same last name as DD. It is usually much easier for the kids.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

"Not long before that, BM had put a wooden plaque beside their front door that said "The [new last name]Family" and I thought that was insensitive b/c not all members of the household had that last name."

Funny - when BM re-married I had a silver photo album engraved with "The (newlastname)-(oldlastnameSDstillhas) Family, est. 2007" for their gift. I hear through SD that made BM mad as they are just the (newlastname) family . . . except for my SD who has her dad's name, lives with her dad and hates her SF. Made her feel very welcome in her new 'family.'


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

FD, I'm just mom to my DD. Actually I think the only places I use any last name are work and civic stuff. Neither of which my DD has any real contact with.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

kkny, isn't your name on her school file, permission slips, medical records, etc.?


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Sonny & Cher

and I was also DISGUSTED by Cher's throwing herself into the spotlight when Sonny died. She didn't keep his name... it wasn't Cher Bono. She didn't share the spotlight with him when he was alive, from what I remember, she was critical of him and treated him like he was a non talent that rode on her talent/celebrity. In my opinion, she used his death to thrust herself in the spotlight & take advantage of the media coverage for her own benefit. I felt so bad for his widow who had to endure the broadcast and re-broadcast of that pathetic press conference of Cher playing to the camera of how horrible she feels & what a loss she feels & blah blah blah!


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

Ima, yes my name is on school records -- but I doubt any one cares except school officials -- I cant believe my DD cares. My signature is virtually eligible. Why would DD care -- all she cares is whether she is going on trip or not.

I didnt see the press conference you are referring to -- but if it bothered the widow -- guess what -- she didnt have to watch. And my guess is Sonny and his widow are better off financially because of Cher.


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kkny

"I didnt see the press conference you are referring to -- but if it bothered the widow -- guess what -- she didnt have to watch. And my guess is Sonny and his widow are better off financially because of Cher."

This is surprisingly insensitive coming from you. So you mean to tell me that the widow was expected to NOT notice the huge celebrity acting as if she was still married to her deceased husband? It was all over the news, how could this poor woman have missed it? This was her HUSBAND who was DEAD. It had to have been horrible for her. I guess since Cher married him first she had more first in line "rights" to milk the situation for all it was worth, right? Sick.

I'm not even commenting on the money comments other than to say just because someone gives someone money/celebrity doesn't make it OK to disrespect the family when they become deceased. Money, believe it or not, is not the be all end all in life. By that theory if I was to give my ex husband money it would be OK for me to shame his new wife when he passed away? I don't think so...only a bitter desperate person would act that way.

This woman was his current wife....Cher was nothing more than the dreaded EX. She should of bowed out graciously and left the family to mourn in peace. Any decent human would of done that.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

The reason the press gave coverage was because it was CHER. If it had been Mrs X nobody, the press woldnt have shown up. No one had "rights" to a press coverage, the press come to where they want. I didnt see the coverage -- how did Cher disrespect anyone? Did she dis the widow? Or did she just say nice things about Sonny.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

From Wikipedia:
"Bono married his first wife, Donna Rankin, on Nov. 3, 1954 and they had a daughter, Christine ("Christy"), born on June 24, 1958, before divorcing in 1962. Following that, Bono married Cher; Bono and Cher had a daughter, Chastity Bono, on March 4, 1969. Six years later, in 1975, the couple divorced. Bono then married Susie Coelho, but divorced her in 1984. He married again in 1986 to Mary Whitaker. They had two children, Chesare Elan Bono (a son, born 1988) and Chianna Marie Bono (a daughter, born 1991)."

Well, Cher wasn't even the first wife... she was the second wife. He had children from three of his wives and when he died, if it wasn't bad enough that Cher disrespected his current wife, imagine how all his children must have felt... the ones with his current wife AND his first child... DISGUSTING!!!!


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Disrespect

Again, I didnt see the press conference -- what did Cher do to disrespect these people.


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the grieving widow

The press coverage was because of his fame (in his own right as well as with Cher) and he was a politician at the time. Cher tearfully spoke of what Sonny meant to her & her life. She spoke like SHE was the grieving widow. His wife at the time, the true grieving widow, ended up taking over his political role until the next election.


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lack of respect???

So she spoke (I assume nicely) what he meant to her. I dont see that as disrespect. Ima, yes he was famous. Would he have been without Cher? We will never know. A lot of people do credit his success to her. And would he had been successful in politics unless he had been well known in the entertainment field? We willnever know.

X wifes dont have to disappear. Many will be more respected by family, business associates, and yes -- less frequently -- the press -- than current wife.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

Yes and Cher certainly deserved everyones respect what with her assless chaps, fishnets, mediocre music and enough plastic surgery to kill a baby elephant and all...hahahaha. She was milking a media moment for all it was worth. Period. Celebrity marriages are a freaking joke anyway...do you truly think they LOVED each other. LOL.

Meanwhile the current wife took over a politicacl role which actually requires nuerons and fills her deceased husbands shoes untill his term was up. She also carried herself with dignity during her grieving paeriod and never told Cher to sit down and shut up. HHHHMMMM....who sounds more respectable.

I think the assless chaps proves my point......


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

Doodle, I have no reason to think they didnt love each other when they got married. I see no reason to attack a woman for making what I assume to be nice statement about an X. But if that is your idea of the height of disrpect by an earlier wife, I think you are being one-sided.


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Furthermore

There are times when the EX wife (if she has any self respect) SHOULD dissapear. Death is one of those times. You should speak your grievance, say whay you have to say, offer condolences to family and then SHUT UP! Go grieve in silence if you are still not over the man but don't turn the death into a freak show.

Other times Ex wife should dissapear:

Wedding, honey moon period of EX.

Birth of new babies between Ex and new spouse/girlfriend.

Family traditions that have been started up between Ex and new spouse.

Basically anything that doesn't involve his/her CHILDREN he/she had with EX since trully that is the only reason they have left to converse at all. If the person is remarried with a new family (which of course would include children from former marriage)this goes triple.

Anything more would be intrusive. Once the Ex moves on and starts a new life the other party should do the same thing. Just stick to issues directly concerning the kids. If everyone did that alot of step family drama would not exist.


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Furthermore I must add

There are times when the EX wife (if she has any self respect) SHOULD dissapear. Death is one of those times. You should speak your grievance, say whay you have to say, offer condolences to family and then SHUT UP! Go grieve in silence if you are still not over the man but don't turn the death into a freak show.

Other times Ex wife should dissapear:

Wedding, honey moon period of EX.

Birth of new babies between Ex and new spouse/girlfriend.

Family traditions that have been started up between Ex and new spouse.

Basically anything that doesn't involve his/her CHILDREN he/she had with EX since trully that is the only reason they have left to converse at all. If the person is remarried with a new family (which of course would include children from former marriage)this goes triple.

Anything more would be intrusive. Once the Ex moves on and starts a new life the other party should do the same thing. Just stick to issues directly concerning the kids. If everyone did that alot of step family drama would not exist.


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also from wilki

also from Wilki -- it seems as if Sonny might have wanted this.

His ex-wife, Cher, gave a eulogy at Bono's funeral, after which the attendees sang the song "The Beat Goes On". His final resting place is Desert Memorial Park in Cathedral City, California. The epitaph on Bono's headstone reads: "And The Beat Goes On."[


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What is your point?

It was a reference to a song he sang. What's your point? I'm sure his current wife is the one who APPROVED the epitaph not Cher.


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Eulogies/Tombstone

My point was that either the deceased or his legal representative or his widow chooses who does eulogies. Are you suggesting that Cher crashed the funeral. And yes the widow approved the tombstone, with a reference to a song, he sang WITH THE EARLIER WIFE. So it does not appear that the widow felt dispected. You and Ima want the X to disappear, but it does not appear the widow (who according to wilkie, has remarried twice since Sony's death, but still supports his causes) had this resentment.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

haha doodle, assless chaps!!! and all her 'boy toys'!!!

Sonny wrote some of the songs that made her famous. He actually helped her get her career started. I'd think KKNY would appreciate that, even though he didn't have the 'looks', he had the brains. Oh wait... maybe looks ARE more important. (maybe she looked better in assless chaps and fishnets, straddling a missle than he did, lol) So, her star took off and she dumped him for all her younger boy toys while he went off & did his own thing. And he found a career that was fulfilling to him & a wife that shared that with him. He wasn't a flashy person and didn't run around referring to himself as "Cher's ex" to cash in on her fame. He was out doing his own thing, with his own family.


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Ima and Doodle

So Ima and Doodle, nothwithstanding that you think Cher disprected the widow, and other children, how do you explain the Eulogy other than Sonny and or the widow wanted Cher involved?


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more follow up

KKNY-

Cher carried on like she was the grieving widow. Had she offered her respect and condolences to the CURRENT wife it would of been different. The way it was played out just looked like a desperate attempt to be in the spot light.

The current wife DID have to approve all funeral proceedings, tombstones and the like. She was GENEROUS to let Cher take part at all. It just seems that if a person who watched any of the press coverage of Bono's death who didn't KNOW who Sonny and Cher were or any of the details of their relationship...that person would assume by the way Cher carried herself throughout the ordeal that SHE was the grieving widow. To me that is a little disrespectful.

I would pop Amanda in the jaw if something happened to J and she acted that way. The emotions would already be extreme without her going around blabbing about how wonderful he was and how he was the love of her life and she would never ever got over him. I'm sure no one wants to here of another woman's undying love for her deceased husband 24 hours after the man passes away...not good timing to be pouring your guts out if you are the EX.


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To answer your question

KKNY-

I would assume the widow was nice enough to include Cher considering Sonny was a grease spot on a tree. I don't think he had too much say in hos funeral proceedings.

I'm not saying Cher had no right to spaek out on behalf of SOnny...I'm just saying she might could of toned it down a little. Maybe she could of mentioned the fact he had a current wife and children outside of her own daughter whom were left husbandless/fatherless. That's all I'm saying.


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Disrespect

Doodle, I know nothing of the relationship between Sonny, Cher, his widow, etc. But for you and Ima to assume this was disresptful (which you now say a "little" disrespectful, after hearing more facts), is just showing your bias agaisnt Xs. You dont know if the widow got along with Cher. Your relationship with your DHs X is not everyone elses.


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I'll give you that

You are right there. Jonathan hates his EX to put it mildly. I still think that she could of at least MENTIONED his current wife and other children in one of her out pours.


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Funerals

Many people of a certain age have with their will instructions re their funeral. I certainly assume Sonny had a will and adequate legal respresentation. You and Ima have done a hatchet job on Cher, when in fact, she may have been doing exactly what Sonny and/or his widow wanted. Maybe widow wanted privacy. YOU DONT KNOW. Yet you and Ima hack hack hack at any and all Xs.


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You are wrong there KKNY

I know some peole who have fabulous EX's. They don't start drama. They are polite. They do right by their children. They act like adults. They are always pleasant with the current spouse...etc. etc. I have heard of women who get along fine with the husband's EX.

All the Ex's I have heard that are like this have one thing in common. They all have moved on with their lives and have new families of their own and are trully HAPPY with their new life.

I'm not saying Cher hadn't moved on...I just think she saw a chance to be in the spotlight for awhile. But as far as hating all EX's...that's not true at all. That's not to say that pain in the rear Ex's don't piss me off though.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

Cher had moved on. Read her bio on Willkie, although her career had ups and downs, it was up after she and Sonny divorced.

and from her bio

Cher was in London in January 1998 when a call from daughter Chastity brought news of Sonny Bono's death in a skiing accident.[34] He was 62. At the time of his death, Sonny Bono, by then a popular California Congressman, was married to his fourth wife, Mary Bono.[35] Although they had been divorced for nearly 23 years and Sonny was remarried with two more children, Cher accepted an invitation to deliver the eulogy. The funeral, unbeknownst to Cher, was broadcast live on CNN. In front of millions, she tearfully and effusively praised Bono, calling him "the most unforgettable character I've ever met."[36] Cher paid tribute to Bono in the CBS special Sonny and Me: Cher Remembers (1998), calling her grief "something I never plan to get over."[37] In 1998, Sonny & Cher received a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame for Television. Cher appeared at the event with Mary Bono, who accepted the award on behalf of her late husband.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

This is too funny. I have to laugh, and put in my two cents. KKNY, I'm inclined to agree with you. If we're talking insensitive, let's go with the movie that Sonny's last wife put together after he died that made Cher look bad. Do you think Sonny would have approved that movie? For goodness sake, Cher met Sonny when she was 16! He was a formative part of her life. He only became famous after they became a duet. They "made" each other. Then they divorced and Sonny began his own show, as did Cher. His was a flop. Hers was acclaimed. They then got back together professionally before finally splitting ways.

Do you think he would have become a congressman without her? Do you think she would have been as famous as she is without him?

They had history together! She met him when she was a child and he was nearly twice as old as her! Any second (third, fourth...) wife should be appreciative of that history, and if she really didn't want Cher to speak she shouldn't have had a memorial with A) Cher speaking and B) on national tv.

I hardly think she needed the spotlight. Her career was going well.

While I don't prefer her outfits, that's a part of the image that was created for her, both with Sonny and post Sonny. No worse than Madonna. It's show-biz, and has nothing to do with character. And, as for "boy-toys"... by the way, Sonny was boinking his secretary while Cher was pregnant. Oops.


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Clarification

I realize Cher had moved on. I feel her over reaction was more a need to be in the spot light not because she was hung up. The Ex who refuses to move comment on was in reference to this comment:

"Yet you and Ima hack hack hack at any and all Xs."

I don't have a problem with all Ex'x....just the ones who won't move on or who do not do right by their children because they are bitter over the failed relationship. I wasn't meaning to suggest Cher was "hung up". I was just correcting your above quote.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

I'm just scanning today's posts re Sonny, Cher and The Widow Bono, so I haven't yet read ALL the details, but at a glance I can see the debate is basically whether or not it's disrespectful or wrong for an ex-wife to be present and/or part of funeral events/memorial/mourning activities after a man dies. Right now my thoughts are that ---like most things--- it really depends on the people involved and that EXTREMES are really the main things that should be deemed disrespectful. I think the dangers in a blanket rule that it's ALWAYS the right thing for the ex-wife to disappear from the mourning can be:

-it puts the deceased children from that marriage in a very uncomfortable position and may even, by association, make them feel vaguely like they are not welcome there either.

-it may even cause these children a lot of unnecessary aggravation and a feeling of isolation if their other parent is banned from events and they have to go there solo. Depending on circumstances, and especially if other members of the deceased's family, past etc. are excluded, the man's children may feel incredibly alone at their father's funeral.

-such a blanket rule seems to establish an automatically adversarial relationship between the ex-wife and the deceased and any of his relations. A rule that would state that the ex-wife's presence is automatically "disrespectful" implies that she is always inherently an adversary, as opposed to simply one among many individuals who have genuine concern and regard for the deceased, who have shared an important part of his life with him and who want to pay their respects. When the relationship between the ex-spouse and the deceased has been basically harmonious and worakable, it seems wrong and unfounded to exclude the ex-spouse.

Now, if the relationship has truly been extremely adversarial and the ex-wife has made inappropriate public scenes before, her presence would certainly RISK BECOMING disrespectful at the funeral, and some family members may more legitimately fear what she might pull. Whether or not they do the gracious thing and include her would have to be weighed against the risks of a base, ugly scene being caused at an occasion for honoring a person's life. I think it's safe to say that ANY person's real enemies, people who would be much more likely to speak ill of the person, would be a big risk at a funeral, etc. My feeling would be invite folks, but if any one of them starts to cause a scene, you have the right to kick them out WHEN & IF that happens.

Hopefully everyone is an adult and can modulate reasonably enough ---given the emotional circumstances--- an appropriate amount of time "in the spotlight" and not run roughshod over others' being able to express their own grief. No one can control anyone else's feelings, and there should be room for everyone who cared for the deceased to be able to express them, as long as it doesn't deprive others of the same right. In general, I feel that a lot of conflicts can be eliminated by all parties practicing inclusion and a philosophy of "there's room for everyone". One's presence doesn't have to take away from anyone else's presence unless a person allows it to make them feel smaller, or if one believes that there always has to be an either-or choice. If one widow feels "upstaged" by the other, the upstaged widow has choices: make an even bigger scene, complain about being upstaged but do nothing about it, plan a separate memorial that does not include the other widow, or just not worry about what the other widow is doing or how much attention she's getting in the first place and go on grieving as she naturally would.

Okay, those are my initial thoughts... now I'm going to go back and read all the details b/c I don't know yet what exactly the circumstances were or what Cher did or didn't do.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

"Hopefully everyone is an adult and can modulate reasonably enough ---given the emotional circumstances--- an appropriate amount of time "in the spotlight" and not run roughshod over others' being able to express their own grief."

I think this is what I was saying all along. You just said it better. I don't think Ex shouldn't go to an Ex's funeral. On the contrary, they should go if nothing else to support the children in their grief of the loss of a parent.

However, I don't think it's right to be so loud and boustorous with your grievances that you cause a scene. I feel this is disrespectful to the current wife and the deceased's other family members. I think emotions are raw enough without the three ring circus act.

I know not everyone has the same relationship but in my case I would not have the tolerance for Amanda if something were to happen to J. I would devestated to say the very least. I would be over whelmed with grief and the near site of her would probably send me right over the edge. It would be so not a good idea on her part to bawling and throwing herself at the foot of his grave for sure. Maybe I am seeing it a little too much from my own perspective. In our situation the Ex wouldn't be welcomed by anyone in Jonathan's family so maybe it's hard for me to NOT view a very public mourning as an intrusion. Who knows.

More importantly why do we care...this is Sonny and Cher and we've managed to make it a huge moral debate. LOL!


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

okay, I see now that the question wasn't so much about attending funerals but the question of excessive displays, esp. regarding Cher.

I agree with you about excessive displays, but again, because it's so hard to fully control or predict emotional reactions, I'd find it disrespectful directly related to how much it actually truly *prevents* others from expressing *their* feelings freely. That is, if it becomes "all about them" at the expense of others. And also it's disrespectful (and just gross) if it's phony. That, I think, goes without saying.

Cher seems kind of an unusual and extreme case, mainly because of the mega-celebrity factor and the issue of media ratings. The fact is, Sonny & Cher were famous as a couple for years, and a viewing audience will be just as curious to hear Cher's response to his death (because they "know" Cher, as a celebrity) as they would be curious to hear about his wife at the time. Maybe even a bit more curious, not b/c Cher is any more important or legitimate, but just because they know The Widow Bono will be straight-up sad, whereas b/c they were divorced, Cher's reaction might have been more complicated, and therefore interesting to viewers. Celebrity also makes it a more extreme scenario emotionally because on top of it being the death (the SUDDEN death) of her first husband, it is the death of a person who shared with her the circumstances (their show) and years which made them both the most famous, so their relationship was really life-changing for them both in a very extreme way. And then of course we can't forget that Cher is a *performer*, in show business... I don't mean this in a necessarily derogatory way, but they are pretty much all Drama Queens. So I guess for Cher it makes more sense to be over-the-top with it than it would for the Drama Queens in our lives... (I know I am going to have to deal with one ---and already do--- in a major way in those circumstances, and even though she has every right ---as my Dad's wife and just as a person who was close to him--- to behave over-the-top, it IS still nauseating. It will be ---and already is--- "all about her". Not even all about her AND MY DAD, but HER.)


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

My guess -- just a guess -- is Sonny wanted his funeral to be a media circus. Someone invited her to do a eulogy. The fact is -- none of us know -- who wanted this -- but certainly either Sonny or his widow wanted Cher to do the euology, and likely had the song planned, and invited CNN, and the headstone. lets not put this on Cher. Unless you know more than I do.

What this is about to me, is some 2nd or 3rd wifes, thinking X should change name, get our of town, etc etc. That is overstepping boundaries.


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Serenity

(I know I am going to have to deal with one ---and already do--- in a major way in those circumstances, and even though she has every right ---as my Dad's wife and just as a person who was close to him--- to behave over-the-top, it IS still nauseating. It will be ---and already is--- "all about her". Not even all about her AND MY DAD, but HER.)

Death is such a hard and emotional thing in itself without the drama you mention in your above statement. I probably couldn't deal. I'll be the first to admit that if I had a nightmare SM I wouldn't want her at my father's funeral or at the very least I would want her to NOT be within hitting distance of me during the services.

I feel the same way about Jonathans EX. I would already be way too emotional and not in my right mind to deal with her. God willing J will live to be an old crabby man so this won't be an issue anytime soon.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

My husband was married once before me & had no kids with her. If she wanted to come to his funeral, she's welcome. She was a part of his life and has every right to be there, even if they didn't have kids. However, as his wife... if she were to get up in front of all his family & friends and carry on about how he was the love of her life & that he made her the person she is today and she'll never get over it, etc., it would not be fine. If she feels that way, she's entitled to feel that way, but the time to share it is not at his funeral, in front of his wife, kids, family & friends. (and she is remarried, but who is to say my husband wasn't the love of her life?)

It's one thing to go to an ex's funeral and say nice things.. he was a wonderful father, he was a generous, kind & giving person... etc. but to turn it into 'he meant the world to me & I'll never get over him' puts a different spin on things.

I understand why Cher was involved and that his widow invited her, of course she would invite her stepchild's mother to the funeral. I believe she agreed for Cher to give her eulogy, but I doubt very much if she knew what Cher would say or how emotionally charged it would be. Cher is an actress and probably has more self control over showing emotion than the rest of us, yet her performance that day was flawless. You'd think she was the grieving widow and that is what I think was shameful. Who knows what the real widow felt or thought about it? But, I can remember thinking "this isn't about you!" in regard to Cher. That is just my perspective and I was only giving my opinion on that, not looking for a debate. I was certainly not saying ALL EX's fit in one category.


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Not known

Ima, Sonny was to Cher the man she fell in love with at 16 (oops some of the crowd here thinks there was no love). I dont know who invited her to the funeral, but my guess is it more likely Sonny left this in his final instructions. My guess -- if Sonny was looking down at the funeral it was exactly what he wanted.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

One must take anything and everything written on Wikipedia (or ANY Wiki) with a grain of salt. Anyone of us could write and article on there and say whatever we would like to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_writes_Wikipedia

All of these baseless assumptions about Sonny and Cher and Wikipedia quotes. Ayi yi yi..


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

Yes, but in the meantime some people feel free to dump all over her. And I have trouble belieivng she didnt give the eulogy and it isnt on his tombstone. I dont know why some people want to hack away at a former wife they diddnt know. Maybe they hate all former wives.


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Alright, try about

You can look on about.com also

Congressman Sonny Bono's funeral was broadcast live to millions of people on CNN, including Cher's emotional eulogy speech. The first part of the eulogy runs 4:49 minutes, the second 1:07 minutes.

and has the eulogy -- including --

"I want to close, but I wanted to tell Mary and Chesare and Chianna how proud I am of what he made himself after we were separated and his accomplishments. And I know that a person just doesn't decide to become a Congressman in the middle of their life and then be one. But it's just so typical of Sonny to do something so crazy like that. And also it puts my mind at peace to know that in the end of his days that he had such a wonderful family life. And I know how much he loved Mary and Chesare and Chianna. And I know how much they loved him. And also I know how much he loved his friends. He was the greatest friend. If you'd seen our house for the last five days--Mary's house for the last five days--we can't get rid of everybody. Everybody's just there, you know. And it's the way you would have wanted it. He would have been in the middle cooking--not eating, just tasting. And making everybody else eat. "

Cleary, this was an unusual relationship.

It also appears to me that this "press conference" that people kept talking about was the eulogy. Ima and Doodle -- you two talk about a press confrence -- was there one?


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

about.com pays pretty well. The more people look at those pages, the more the "guides" are compensated. It's quite the business for pretty much anyone that is a good writer.

http://beaguide.about.com/index.htm

I don't know Cher personally so I don't know what her motive may or may not have been. I've also not read her book "The First Time" but from a quick check on Amazon it appears she addressed Sonny's Eulogy. I personally would find her book more credible over any web page out there.

http://www.amazon.com/FIRST-TIME-Cher/dp/0684809001

I have fond memories of watching The Sonny and Cher Shows in my younger days.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

So both about and wilki say the speach was an eulogy -- if you want to comment from the book, feel free.

When Ima quotes from Wilki, no one questions it. But if somehting might be regarded as favorable to an earlier wife, it is less beleivable. What I am saying is that if people are so anxious to attach earlier wife, it is a bias issue.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

kk, I can't believe you are still commenting on this. Did you really spend ALL day researching Sonny & Cher? Lose the chip that's on your shoulder, why don't you? If I call ONE ex wife an idiot, it does not mean ALL ex wives are idiots. Thought we were past the blanket statements.

I gave my opinion on what I saw & from what I remember from watching it ten years ago. You didn't even watch it, according to you, so I don't even see why you would argue about it. You're right, it was the eulogy but it was broadcast repeatedly on the news & celebrity talk shows. The part that was repeatedly played seemed to be Cher, crying about how Sonny impacted her life, like it was all about her. Now, ten years ago when I watched it, I was in my 20's and remember thinking that she was stealing the spotlight and focusing on her, not Sonny. Perhaps it's just how I remember it. But, now that you post the actual words she used, I found it a bit, ummm, condescending??? that she said "I wanted to tell Mary and Chesare and Chianna how proud I am of what he made himself after we were separated and his accomplishments." and it may not have been meant that way, but it does come across that way. I'm sure Mary was quite proud of her husband, she didn't need Cher's stamp of approval. (but I may be reading too much into that)

When I quoted wiki, I was only quoting his marriage facts. If they are wrong, then correct me. I admit when I am wrong. In it's entirety, it might not have painted such a poor picture of Cher, but the clips that the media played over & over made her look like she was stealing the spotlight and playing the grieving widow. It wasn't an attack on all ex wives, it is MY perception of one event with ONE ex wife.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

Ima, you suggested where to look for research -- and telling me I have a chip on my shoulder because I looked where you did? And you attack on one Xwife who seemed to have a good relatioinship with current wife. I guess there is no X wife who lives up to your standards.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

I tell you, you have a chip on your shoulder because you think saying one thing about one person means a whole group of people are being 'attacked'. I gave my opinion on one person's behavior based on one incident, which I thought was a disgusting display of inappropriateness. It doesn't mean Sonny's wife would agree, she knows Cher better than I do. Cher doesn't need to live up to my standards & I'm glad if she has a good relationship with Sonny's widow.

and no, there ARE ex wives that live up to my standards. My husbands ex wife lives up to my standards... she doesn't butt into my marriage or bother my husband. She's moved on and is happily remarried, not at all worried about what my husband is doing. That's a good ex!


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

No, I said your and Doodle's attack of Cher was indicative of bias. And you two did attack her. So I disagree, I dont think I have a chip on my shoulder. I think thats just another way you have of going after people who dont agree with you.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

and my mom thinks she was a wonderful mom! We can agree to disagree. Lots of people don't agree with me, they're entitled to. I'm not 'going after' anybody. I am just sharing my opinion. It's my opinion that you have a chip on your shoulder. It's your opinion I'm wrong.

If you think our 'attack' of Cher is indicative of bias, why is it seen as bias against a former wife, rather than bias against person that cashed in on a tragedy? My opinion has very little to do with her status as his ex wife.. but rather, I watched their show as a kid & the routine was for her to make fun of, criticize & basically use Sonny as her punch line. It worked, she was young & pretty and he made a good punch line. It was probably his idea and it made her famous. He wrote the songs that made them popular & when her fame took off, she divorced him. There may have been other reasons, but publicly, that is what happened. Privately, they may have been best friends, who knows? She didn't always talk nice about him and she flaunted around with all her much younger men, hanging on to youth every which way. He quietly lived his life & used what 'celebrity' he had to get into politics. Before he died, I don't recall that they had any sort of 'good' relationship and when he died, I was surprised at how emotional she got. It's my opinion that she may have felt guilty for the way she treated him. I may be wrong, they might have had a wonderful relationship/friendship, but as with many celebrity situations, the public only knows what publicists & the media want us to. But, just to be clear, my opinion of Cher has nothing to do with her being his ex wife, I haven't thought much of her throughout her career... for years before Sonny died. You don't have to agree, but I'm entitled to my opinion & it doesn't make it an attack.. and certainly doesn't make it an attack on all ex wives.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

LOL - I'll be sure to tell my SM (who is an exW) and my divorced friends that they are bad people because Cher did something that was in bad taste.
Because that totally makes sense and is entirely what Ima and Doodle meant.

(please note sarcasm)


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

Back to the topic of names...

My Dad and SM used her grocery store club membership... But it was in her name from her previous marriage, we'll pretend it's Clark.
So when my dad used the card, they said "Have a nice day Mr. Clark" and it made my SM bonkers! She hated hearing him get called by her exH's name (though Dad didn't much care). So she threw out their card and got a new membership.
I thought it was cute that she was so worked up she got a new card to not hear her ex's name associated with her new life.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

Ima, What evidence do you have that Cher "cashed in" on this? For all you know Mary Bono wanted the publicity to launch her brief political career, but I am not making any accusation like that. Its even possible Sonny wanted a dramatic funeral, and left instructions for such. Chers career was going great then. Yes, she and Sonny had a career togethor at one point. They broke up (with a few "reunion" events). After she went on to other writers, etc, her career, was going great - both acting and musical. . It appears she was asked to come to the funeral. First you complain you ignore widow. When I find text of speach, you then complain it was condescending. Is nothing other than Xwife dissapperaing from her Xs life going to make you happy? Is that what you mean by moving on? Becuase that apparently didnt work for the Bonos


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

If the person dies how mourning can be an intrusion? everyone has right to mourn over whomever they fell like. I think it is ridiclous for a wife to feel insecure at her DH's funeral. Especially if there are children involved or other family members.

Ima when children are involved, you cannot expect exes to completely dissapear. so there must be a different standard for exspouses who share children. at least for those who stay in children's lives.


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finedreams

FD, the standard is the same. Ex wives need to stay out of the ex husband's business and that of his new wife. PERIOD. They share a child/children. That it! They are not supposed to 'disappear', they are supposed to be involved in their child's life. **but there is also a limit to that involvement**

Mom has no more right to tell dad to give their daughter dessert, than dad has to tell mom not to take their daughter out to eat fast food every night. Those things DO affect their child, but those are lifestyle choices that each get to decide in their own house. When the parents have different lifestyles and/or values, then which parent has the overruling authority? Joint legal custody means it's equal, regardless of who has more physical custody. If they don't agree on those things, then it's best for them to stay out of each other's lifestyle and do their own thing, in their own homes and not worry what the other parent is doing unless they believe it's harmful to the child. And even then, if a court doesn't agree, there's not much they can do about it. But, when one parent uses the child to control what the other parent does in their own home, then they are overstepping and need to back off. (I'm talking about house rules, meals, vacations, etc.)

If one parent has the right to make the other parent change their lifestyle because it affects THEIR child, I'd love to know where that could/would be enforced. My husband would love it if his ex didn't feed THEIR daughter nothing but fast/junk food, my husband would love it if his ex would stop dressing THEIR daughter in what he thinks is inappropriate clothes for a 8 or 9 year old, My husband would love it if his ex didn't let THEIR daughter listen to nasty *unedited* rap songs that she loaded onto an MP3 player for THEIR daughter to listen to whenever she wants. My husband would love it if his ex didn't let THEIR daughter stay up all night, after mom goes to bed, watching TV (who knows what she's watching) or playing video games with mom's BF's preteen (hormonal?) sons. There's a lot of things my husband 'has a problem with' but he also knows that BM is going to do what SHE wants in her house. The few times he did bring up things like her letting her daughter sleep on the bed with his sons, she told him to mind his own F***ing business. But, then tells him what she thinks is 'unacceptable' in OUR house. Things like not giving THEIR daughter dessert or soda. So, to answer your question finedreams, I think that ex's should mind their own business and focus on their child, not what the other parent is doing all the time. Other things my SD's mom has concerned herself with: How much my wedding ring cost? What I do for a living? (and it wasn't a safety concern, it was how much money I make) What kind of music MY 18 year old daughter listens to. What time MY 19 year old son goes to sleep. What I cook for dinner. What I pack in SD's lunch. What I make for breakfast. Where we go on vacation. (and what we did) She's also sabotaged & tried to sabotage two trips we planned by making SD unavailable at the last minute. Never calls her daughter but if we are on a trip/vacation or doing something fun, she'll call several times to ask her daughter what we are doing? SOME ex's need to GET A LIFE. NOT ALL ex's, Just SOME!


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

Cher
Eulogy for Sonny Bono
delivered 9 January 1998 in Palm Springs, California
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/chereulogytosonnybono.htm
Please excuse my papers, but I've been writing this stupid eulogy for the last 48 hours. And,
of course, I know that this would make Sonny really happy. It's like Den said: "He got the last laugh on you."
So because I've had to write some of it down doesn't mean that I'm unprepared. It just means that I'm over prepared in that this is probably the most important thing I've ever done in my life. Don't pay any attention [weeping].
This is probably going to happen from time to time. And I also know that he is some place loving this.... Also, I have to wear the glasses that I made so much fun of him. I called him Mr. Magoo. I said, "You know, you've got to get some better glasses. You know, I don't care if you're Republican or not, you've got to look cooler than this." So now I have to wear the glasses that I make fun of him for saying. There are a couple of things -- I want to tell some stories -- but there are a couple of things I really want to get perfect for him. So I have to read....
Some people were under the misconception that Son was a short man, but he was heads and tails taller than anyone else. He could see above the tallest people. He had a vision of the future and just how he was going to build it. And his enthusiasm was so great that he just swept everybody along with him. Not that we knew where he was going, but we just wanted to be there. He was also successful at anything he ever tried. Not the first time he tried maybe, but he just -- he kept going. If he was really -- But if he really wanted something, he kept going until he achieved it....Once he told me that, when he was a teenager, he got his nose broken six times because he used to get into fights with guys that were much bigger than him. And he said that they would just be beating the crap out of him and would just be keep going back and going back and going back. I said, "Well, why?" And he said, "Because eventually I would just wear them down." And if you know him, we all got worn down.
Some people thought that Son wasn't very bright, but he was smart enough to take an introverted 16-year-old girl and a scrappy little Italian guy with a bad voice and turn them into the most successful and beloved couple of this generation. And some people thought that Son wasn't to be taken seriously because he allowed himself to be the butt of the jokes on the Sonny and Cher show. What people don't realize is that he created Sonny and Cher. And -- And he knew what was right for us, you know? He just always knew the right thing. And he wanted to make people laugh so much that he had the confidence to be the butt of the joke because he created the joke.
When I was 16 years old, I met Sonny -- Salvatore Philip Bono. And the first time I ever saw him, he walked in this room. And I had never seen anything like him before in my life. Because he was Sonny way before we were Sonny and Cher. He had this thing about him. He walked into this room, and I swear to God I saw him and like everybody else in the room was just washed away in this soft kind of focus filter -- kind of like when Maria saw Tony at the dance. And -- And I looked at him, and he had like this weird hair-do between Caesar and Napoleon. As a matter of fact, one of the first things that he ever told me was that he was a descendent of Napoleon, and that his father had shortened the name of Bonaparte to Bono when they came to this country. But that he didn't want to make too big of a deal out of this. Now you have to realize, at this time, he was talking to a girl who thought that Mount Rushmore was a natural phenomenon. So we were definitely a marriage made in heaven....
I lied to him about how old I was. I've told this story, but somehow it always keeps coming back. I told him that I was 18, and of course I wasn't. I was the most bizarre 16-year-old that you probably would come across. I had all kinds of phobias and all kinds of insecurities and all kinds of energies that just couldn't be harnessed. Except Son saw something. And I didn't have a place to stay and he said, "You know, you can come and live with me because I have twin beds and really I don't find you attractive." I didn't really know how to take it, but I was really glad to have a place to stay.
And when people would call or come over and say, "Who's that girl?" "Oh, that's just Cher." We spent this whole time together and I was just Cher. I was this kid and he kind of took care of me. I told my mom I was living with a stewardess. And every time that my mom would call, I always said, "Mom, call me before you come over." Every time my mom would call, I'd grab all of Sonny's clothes and run down the street and throw all his clothes into my girlfriend's living room window. And I lost most of his clothes that year. One time he came into the house and he had his jockey shorts in his hand and he said, "Cher, you've just got to stop doing this. I found these on the street."
So nothing happened with us romantically until my mom made me move out. When I was packing my things, we both just looked at each other and we started crying and I didn't even know why. And then I just realized once I was there that I just missed him so much -- I was so used to him being a part of my life. And I also had to tell him at that time that I wasn't 18. That I was 17, but I was about to turn 18. And when we were crying -- he actually cried too -- I said, "Well, I'm not 17 about to turn 18. I'm 16 about to turn 17, but I can't go through the rest of my life without you. So if my mother threatens to put you in jail, could you just do it anyway." So my mother kept threatening him all that year. But then I turned 18 and everything was all right.
I want to close...but I wanted to tell Mary and Chesare and Chianna how proud I am of what he made himself after we were separated and his accomplishments. And I know that a person just doesn't decide to become a Congressman in the middle of their life and then be one. But it's so typical of Sonny to do something so crazy like that. And also it puts my mind at peace to know that in the end of his days that he had such a wonderful family life. And I know how much he loved Mary and Chesare and Chianna. And I know how much they loved him. And also I know how much he loved his friends. He was the greatest friend. And if you'd seen our house for the last five days -- Mary's house for the last five days -- we can't get rid of everybody. Everybody's just there, you know. And it's the way he would have wanted it. He would have been in the middle cooking -- not eating, just tasting. And making everybody else eat.
So the last thing I want to say is, when I was young, there was this section in the Reader's Digest. And it was called "The Most Unforgettable Character I've Ever Met." And for me that person is Sonny Bono. And no matter how long I live or who I meet in my life, that person will always be "Son" for me.
Thank you.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

If anyone doesnt think it WILDLY inappropriate for Ex wife sharing when she became ROMANTICLY INVOLVED WITH SONNY while giving her EX HUSBANDS EULOGY in front of HIS PRESENT wife and 2 children Yikes!!!! Also remember seeing the eulogy (and still being married, no EX bias at that time,) felt Cher was WAY over the line with Sonnys poor widow..Also noted OUR house.... um Marys house(at least she corrected herself)Also Ex is free to mourn in her own way, geez, send a donation to charity in his name, do not trespass on my grief in the name of your children...You would be an unrelated party that I would not wish to see at that time.....In my case only, of course..All civilized gracious Exs should be able to attend otherwise...


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

ima, I don't know what you are talking about. I don't know about everyday things like packing lunches. I never cared about minor things, neither did X. Both you and BM are very involved in each other family' lives. She wants her X (your Dh) to attend her wedding, and you bake her cakes. You call and talk to her BF's exwife and you know what she buys or what kind of sexual preferences she has (swinging or what you said). I would consider all of this to be overly involved and overly interested in each other's lives by my standards. This kind of involvement is extreme. But there are ways of involvement that i consider not extreme. Everybody decides what is appropriate.

I think it is appropriate for my X to call me and discuss what I think of DD's college grades and if they are good enough in my opinion because he is unsure. DD tells him they are fine but he is not clear on that(she attends college wiht a different grading system). I don't think I should hang up the phone just because we are divorced or DD does not live at home. If however X's wife called a third party and asked about my whereabouts I would be angry. Complete dissaparance is extreme but too much involvement is extreme tooshould remain in each other lives in some balanced appropriate way.


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correction

oops, my post got cut up. ending should say that people who share children should remain in each other lives in balanced appropriate way.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

Hi Finedreams:
"people who share children should remain in each other lives in balanced appropriate way"

I agree completely. It's really hard to find the balance, but I try, every day!! My DD calls her dad nearly everyday and I try to fill him in for a few minutes if there is something going on. Otherwise, I try to email because it's less volitile. I also help her and encourage her to call his parents, and his sister, and arrange to meet them whenever they have the free time (which is not very often, otherwise I'd have to probably set some sort of boundaries).

We attempt to be friendly (not friends!) but civil and considerate of the fact that the other is also our child's parent.

The only thing I would consider asking him to cook for or him asking me to cook for would be our DD's party/event. I'd never ask him for anything personal like that, although I may ask him for a recipe or vice versa.


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RE: What is your opinion on last names and divorce?

"people who share children should remain in each other lives in balanced appropriate way."

anybody ever read the books of Pearl S Buck?

She was born to missionary parents in China, & she wrote wonderfully sensitive & enlightening novels about China.

I think it was in Pavillion of Women that the main character & her husband always addressed each other with great respect as "mother of my children" & "father of my children"...
even after she retired from sexual activity due to the dangers of pregnancy at her age & he took a younger wife.

Even when they disagreed, they *always* reminded themselves & each other that the other person was the reason they had their children.

I thought that was civilized.


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