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The dress -- part two

Posted by kkny (My Page) on
Wed, Oct 7, 09 at 12:26

Shannon,

In response to your post -

"Finally, kkny, when your advice to the OP was to
"tell her DD to "stall if Dad wants to "help" her with shopping" and "not to tell Dad about any parties",

you did not reply to my question. Is this something you tell your DD to do with her her own Dad? Can anyone else answer this question for me in their own situation, does anyone do this? "


I havent had that situation, becuase dad would not have bought a dress for a dance without DD being there or EXPLICITY agreeing to. He has too much common sense. But if Dad and SM are going to get angry if they buy clothes and SD wont wear them, I dont see what else to do.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: The dress -- part two

KKNY - Do you really believe DD gasp - had no idea! StepMom was going to buy the dress DD had pointed out to her? I'll agree up front that this is sort of what she told her mother. Here's the quote from Mom:

I asked DD how SM came to order the dress online, did she ASK her to? because then I could understand them being upset. DD says they had been looking at dress styles online (just as we had done) and SM went ahead and ordered one the next day after she'd come home. DD says she didn't KNOW SM was going to order one.


Now honestly, doesn't this sound just the slightest bit "Spin-Doctored" to all of you parents?

"Sure, she waited until I got home from school. I saw she had the dress pulled up on the screen, and I agreed that yes, this was the dress I wanted -- But honest Mom, I didn't KNOW she was going to press the BUY IT button!"


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RE: The dress -- part two

"I asked DD how SM came to order the dress online, did she ASK her to? because then I could understand them being upset. DD says they had been looking at dress styles online (just as we had done) and SM went ahead and ordered one the next day after she'd come home. DD says she didn't KNOW SM was going to order one.

Now honestly, doesn't this sound just the slightest bit "Spin-Doctored" to all of you parents? "

Yes. And I will tell you why. OP said that she is surprised by Dad and SM's reaction here, that they normally have a good relationship.

THAT indicates to me that dad/SM feel they have reason to be upset.

If there were a pattern of them over-reacting, and blowing their tops over silly things, then I'd be inclined to think otherwise.

But the fact that this has never happened before...and given the fact that my parents divorced when I was a senior in HS, and I knew how to WORK IT to my advantage...YES, I agree with Sweeby that it sounds a bit doctored to me.


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RE: The dress -- part two

"She sent her Dad a pic and he got all upset "
I think Dad may have gotten upset because he and his wife may have spent time looking for dresses (even if they werent in the best taste/size). She may have not communicated clearly with him "dad, I dont like these dresses, thank you for your help" and instead tried to save his feelings/make do. Then when you offered another option, she jumped at the chance (understandably) and dad may have felt a little blindsided (I thought this was taken care of, I had no indication it wasnt). Daughter may have internally realized she didnt handle the situation very well (should have told dad the truth, that the dresses arent going to work) and now dad is mad. Rather than deal with the reality behind the situation, which I feel was probably poor communication between Dad, SM and DD, the focus was shifted to "of course you need to have a pretty dress, you deserve this, we want to do this for you". Which is fine. But doesnt clear up the communication or make it ok, it just puts DD in the middle and probably still feeling guilty.

"she had a horrible weekend. Her Dad yelled at her, her SM wouldn't talk to her, they took away her phone and made her go to bed early...all because she chose a different dress"
I doubt it and postulate that unless this is a recurring pattern of them being over-reactive and ridiculous (in which case you have a bigger problem than dad and SM getting butt-hurt over a dress), there is a lot more to this story. But, DD may not understand the nuances of good communication and may not realize she is pitting her parents against one another. Manipulation is a coping mechanism, and its normal for kids to do it unintentionally. Thats why parents have to have really good communication with one another, so kids dont feel they have to manipulate to make parents happy/proud and for the kid to get what they want.

As for needing/not needing to try on 20 dresses, thats a personal opinion. SM may not be "that kind" of girl that dresses/prom are important. I tend to think, based on info given, that it isnt "more important to them that she wear a dress they acquired as opposed to the one she feels the best in" but a lack of honesty and direct communication. I think theyd probably be really happy for her to wear a dress she was comfortable in. Why didnt she say anything to them about the three dresses? Was it a "these three or none" option? Theres more to this

She doesnt want you two to talk. Not her business. You should have been talking with him about the dance prior to picking out the dress. She doesnt want you two to fight, understandable, but not talking will ensure you will fight all the harder when you do talk, IMHO.

The question you posed was "How do I encourage her to stand up for herself?" My answer is: Dont rescue her. Tell her that she needs to communicate her likes and dislikes, and if she isnt happy with something to speak up. A wise person once said, you may get disappointed, but if you never ask a girl to dance, youll never get to dance. Basically, if you dont say "I dont prefer that, can we keep looking" you will go to the dance in a dress you dont prefer. I will not rescue you. I love you, and I want you to be pretty, but being able to communicate effectively is more important in the long run. Going to the dance in a pretty dress may make her feel pretty, but will not help her being "socially stunted" issue in the future. Learning to communicate clearly with those who love her best is a good way to enable social ease and confidence.


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RE: The dress -- part two

I dont know what SD thought, but if my D looked at a dress yesterday, no way no how do I buy today without reconfirming.

And I didnt read he "after she'd come home" as coming home from school necessarily, maybe coming back to moms??

I did suggest to mom of 2.5 that she say to dad, not only sorry that SM upset, not our intention, but also that in future, lets you and I coordinate better and no need for SM to pick out special dresses if she is going to get upset. And momof2.5 sounds like she will listen to response.

I would tell D she might either tell SM she will help in returning dress (I would likely be big and pay postage) or will save and wear when she grows more. I would explain to D that the natural consequence of not accepting gifts graciously is that you may not get more gifts from that person. That should not result in dad neglecting his responsibility for clothing, but if it does, mom will deal with.

I would not expect anyone to explain to dad and SM that the natural consequence of overreacting, demanding apology is that people become less open with you (eg, not discussing future events). Thermometer made a big deal that the nerve of SD to discuss dance with them and look for dress with SM and then not wear there dress. I dont see it that way, but it is certainly a way to cut down on problems.


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silver

"The question you posed was "How do I encourage her to stand up for herself?" My answer is: Dont rescue her. Tell her that she needs to communicate her likes and dislikes, and if she isnt happy with something to speak up. A wise person once said, you may get disappointed, but if you never ask a girl to dance, youll never get to dance. Basically, if you dont say "I dont prefer that, can we keep looking" you will go to the dance in a dress you dont prefer. I will not rescue you. I love you, and I want you to be pretty, but being able to communicate effectively is more important in the long run. Going to the dance in a pretty dress may make her feel pretty, but will not help her being "socially stunted" issue in the future. Learning to communicate clearly with those who love her best is a good way to enable social ease and confidence"

well said.


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Going Forward

SS - I agree that Dad and SM over-reacted here, and that is the much bigger issue. Telling a child to stand on her own agaisnt Dad and SM just isnt a fair fight.

Many of the SMs here complain when child doesnt "respect them" But when SM is unfair, then mom has to help.

Love, even if you read the worst you can out of this and even if the girl specifically asked for that dress and understood sizing (of course at that age, I would have reviewed sizing), they over-reacted and acted childishly. If my D asked for something, and then didnt wear it, I would discuss with her how SHE is going to help me return or figure out how to use it. Any way you cut it, dad and SM acted immaturely and overreated. I agree the dress isnt the biggest issue and we've all suggested essentially the same phone call from mom to dad re the dress.

The much bigger issue is dad and SM not acting like adults and how mom has to help D with it.


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RE: Grace

"I did suggest to mom of 2.5 that she say to dad, not only sorry that SM upset, not our intention, but also that in future, lets you and I coordinate better and no need for SM to pick out special dresses if she is going to get upset. "

I don't think mom (of 2.5) should get involved at all. This is for her daughter to deal with with her father. If DD needs help figuring out what happened, or what to say, mom can help with that, but no need to speak for her daughter. And the jab at SM "if she's going to get upset" will just stir the pot more.

I think it was pretty "nervy" (Id call it rude) to discuss dance with them, look for dress, get three dresses and then go to moms house and send a text "look at me, Im shopping for a dress" without being gracious enough to tell them she was going to keep looking. As this kind of grace is learned, not inherent, Id say its been a good lesson for DD in grace and manners.


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RE: The dress -- part two

So I only skimmed through a few posts about this dress issue mentioned in the other thread. Is it possible that SD agreed to dresses dad and sm picked because she felt pressured to let them be involved in the dress picking? Is it possible that she agreed to liking a dress but they ordered it without verifying that she really wanted it??

A few years ago BM decided to send the kids halloween costumes. The girls actually liked theirs and wore them. But ss had already gone shopping with me for a costume and wanted to wear the one he picked. So we returned the one bm sent and got the money. The kids did not want to tell bm for fear that she would be mad.....but as I pointed out bm would probably want to see pics and then it would be obvious. BM acted a little angry when ss told her and tried to guilt ss who was only like 5 at the time. He was saying we should keep the costume and he would wear one to school and one to trick or treat. Me and DH thought it was silly to have two costumes....why not return it and use the money for something he will use more than once.

So in the dress situation is it possible to return the dress sd does not want to wear so dad and sm can get their money back??


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RE: The dress -- part two

SS, if you are saying it was nervy to discuss dance, then you are suggesting that going forward SD not discuss dances with them. I agree

If you want to leave it at SD should not partipate in online shopping with SM, that is a good idea too.


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RE: The real issue is not the dress

"Telling a child to stand on her own agaisnt Dad and SM just isnt a fair fight. "

I'm not telling a child to stand on her own. But this is good practice for standing up for herself. If a child cannot communicate with her parents, how can she be expected to communicate with anyone else? I assume there will be boys at the dance. If she can't tell her dad "I don't like this dress" how can a mother expect her to tell a boy "I don't like your hand there"? Yes. This is serious. She is 14? 15? This is not a child anymore. This is a young adult, a young woman. Mom should be supportive, but not fight the fight for her daughter.

"The much bigger issue is dad and SM not acting like adults and how mom has to help D with it."

I disagree. The biggest issue is we have a young woman who does not know how to make her needs/wants known, who fears the displeasure of others and will risk being unhappy herself rather than risk their unhappiness. Scary. I agree mom needs to help dd with clarity, but disagree that mom needs to help dd with father and sm not acting like adults. Newsflash: they are adults, and this is how adults act. Like immature people, a lot of the time. DD needs to learn how to navigate this "adult" world, and mom should definitely help with that, as should dad and SM.


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RE: If it quacks like a duck

KKNY "SS, if you are saying it was nervy to discuss dance, then you are suggesting that going forward SD not discuss dances with them. I agree. If you want to leave it at SD should not partipate in online shopping with SM, that is a good idea too."

Nope, not what I'm saying. I'd not suggest that a daughter shouldn't discuss dances with her father and SM ever again over such a trivial matter that can be so easily resolved (IMHO, with the little info we've been given). This is what I said:

"I think it was pretty "nervy" (Id call it rude) to discuss dance with them, look for dress, get three dresses and then go to moms house and send a text "look at me, Im shopping for a dress" without being gracious enough to tell them she was going to keep looking."

There is nothing wrong with going shopping with SM as long as DD and SM are clear and communicating. BOTH of them. So that neither are wasting their time.


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Getting along

I think we agree that SD has to navigate world including her immature SM and dad who is beholden to her. We just disagree on how to do it. I suggested not telling dad until much closer to dances (preferably when she is at moms, and wont be back at dads till after dance), etc.

This was SDs first dance. Of course she was inexperienced.

OP, I'm certainl she'll do better next time.

Mom2emall, I agree, as I said, if that happened to me, I would be working on returning extra dress. Which is what I think most rational adults would do.


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RE: The dress -- part two

"Love, even if you read the worst you can out of this and even if the girl specifically asked for that dress and understood sizing (of course at that age, I would have reviewed sizing), they over-reacted and acted childishly."

If DD's account of her punishment is 100% accurate and not even the slightest bit exaggerated, and if no 'backtalk' or 'truth-doctoring' factored into it, then yes, I'd say Dad and StepMom over-reacted and were needlessly childish and punitive.


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more on dress

I have to tell you, even with extra shipping costs, at the end of the day my reaction would be

1. I'm happy if D is happy

2. Heah, any day when I get some money back is a good day.

3. I'ld talk to D about hassles of returning stuff, and lets try not to let this happen next time.


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Manipulation is the solution?

KKNY -

The tactics you're suggesting seem manipulative and avoidant to me -- not clear, assertive and considerate.

Granted, assertive and considerate don't work ALL the time, but again, Mom has said Dad and StepMom are generally reasonable.


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Sweeby

I think mom has bent over backwards. Based on the FACTS OP has stated, not her opinion, I dont think SM reasonable. The problem is mom doesnt have to live there, SD does. When SM is not fair (as in needlessly childish and punitive), yet dad demands SD respect her, the only options I see are limit SDs time at dads house, or as you defined it, manipulative and advoidant.

If this were a one-off with SM, then I'ld be more charitable. But adding it to the leg shaving at 9 and lip waxing, I'm a little more cautious. It sounds to me that SM will do anything for SD to like her (and I dont care if 9 or 10 year old bugged her, the word is no), and then overreacts when she is not the favored "mommy"


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RE: Sweeby... and KKNY

Sweeby:

"If DD's account of her punishment is 100% accurate and not even the slightest bit exaggerated, and if no 'backtalk' or 'truth-doctoring' factored into it, then yes, I'd say Dad and StepMom over-reacted and were needlessly childish and punitive."

Agreed, and well said. But I greatly doubt that's what happened. (and think you probably doubt it too :)

KKNY:
Mom bent over backwards to do what? Go shopping with her DD to buy a dress? hmmm. I disagree, that sounds like normal mommy behavior to me.

I don't know if SM is being "unfair" or if DD is being "unfair" but I think it's "unfair" to assume either way.

Like you said, the first dance for everyone. First dance for daddy experiencing the fickle desires of young women. First dance for young woman navigating the tricky waters of multiple adults, their clothing issues/need issues/want issues/rejection issues/blame issues when preparing her for a "milestone event". They can either learn to communicate better this time, or it will continue to get worse. One way to make it work out just as you said (withdraw troops, bring daughter close to mom, fight off invaders dad and sm, reject, etc.) is to prevent dd from having the skills to work this out and just shutting them out (one strike, you're out!!! no more discussing milestone events with you, dad!)

LOL. I'd prefer for my dd to go up to bat. Sure, the ball may hit her in the head. But I wouldn't pull her out of the game, I'd teach her how to move out of the way. Lifeskills.

Op didn't state any FACTS about what happened when DD went back to other parent's house. It's all conjecture based on what DD said happened. I don't know about you, but most people I meet would not both tell the exact same story, esp. when it's a loaded circumstance like this one. DD is bound to be biased. As are SM and dad. Mom's job here is not to fix this, it's to give DD the SKILLS to fix it herself.


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bent over backwards

No, mom bent over backwards when SM shaved kids legs etc. The lip waxing. The SM signing her name MOMMY. I would have told dad at that point keep SM away from DD.

I think DD will learn to communicate. Learning to deal with diffficult people is a skill.

Its also moms job not to let SM work a guilt trip on DD.


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RE: Whose job is it?

"No, mom bent over backwards when SM shaved kids legs etc. The lip waxing. The SM signing her name MOMMY. I would have told dad at that point keep SM away from DD. "

Gotcha. So you went completely off topic and based your opinion on this topic on something that happened approx. 5 years ago. If someone helped my kid shave, I'd be PO'd too. I work very hard to establish a clear line of communication with my daughter's father, and we discuss milestones, when and how to communicate about the birds and bees, etc. If the parents can't communicate, how can we expect the children to?

"Its also moms job not to let SM work a guilt trip on DD"

Agreed. But I'd shift the focus on this to "It's mom's job to make sure DD has the personal/social skills to not let people work guilt trips". Once a person is a teenager, the focus should shift from fighting battles to arming the teen for the battle. JMO.


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RE: The dress -- part two

As to incidents 5 years ago, I am just saying that SM is not the tower of reason. Of course "gotcha" is not the mark of maturiy either.

Please, as virtually all of the SMs here have noted, SM should be a position of authroity and dad and SM are a team. Mom can help coach her, as I suggested. Teen can not battle SM by herself, that is outrageous to suggest. That is throwing her under the wheels. Mom should call dad, as mom was involved in shopping trip. That will give mom a chance to hear what dad says. Youve all commented that he may have a different side to this.


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RE: The dress -- part two

"Of course "gotcha" is not the mark of maturiy either. '

so now you're going to start taking jabs at silversword, KKNY?


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Oh how silly

Oh please LH, you gloss right by shots at me.

I will go home tonight and pray to my goddess of first wives that YOU get divorced and YOUR precious little girl gets a SM like OPs. JK. How silly


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Dealing with steps

And Love, werent you the one who didnt even want to put your kids own father on the birth certificate becasue you didnt want his influence? You at least picked him out. And yet you have NO sypathy for moms who obviously had no choosing of a SM, and their kids are subject to SMs every whim. Boy I'ld love ot see howyou deal with that.


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disgusted

"Oh please LH, you gloss right by shots at me.
I will go home tonight and pray to my goddess of first wives that YOU get divorced and YOUR precious little girl gets a SM like OPs"

What an AWFUL CRUEL thing to say.


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hyprocrit

Love, as I said, JK

But my point is YOU have no sympathy for people who have to let their precious kids go off to SMs. You who avoided that by not even putting your kids fathers name on a birth certificate.

Talk about a hypocrit


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reply

Really KKNY???

I didn't file a PATERNITY SUIT against him???? To GET his name ON the birth certificate? So that he couldn't DENY his own child?

He didn't sign the birth certificate at birth because he wasn't present. I was advised by my attorney to not have him present.

Mistake? I don't know. I did what I thought was best at the time and then 8 or so months later I filed the suit to get EVERYTHING documented. I FILED THE SUIT.

That aside---JK or not, I am sorry, but there is NOTHING FUNNY about what you said. Just kidding???? That implies a joke and I don't see anything remotely humorous about your comment.

I've never said anything so nasty to you or to anyone on this board. And I just never would.


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RE: Wait, what are we talking about?

Well, I never claimed to be mature ;) or more mature than those involved. I'm saying I would have dealt with this differently than you, KKNY. Of course, you are taking many things out of context, bringing up the past, and bringing other situations encountered by other mothers here into this situation so you can bash them, so it's easy to see how you could lose track of the subject at hand.

I didn't suggest that the teen "battle sm by herself". (and why did this become teen vs sm instead of teen vs dad/sm?) I see this as a miscommunication that could either be tamped down or exacerbated, depending on how the mother chooses to play. Which, because we all know young women tend after their mothers more than their SM's; is a model for DD's future behavior with difficult people and situations. So the mother would be wise in choosing carefully just how she wants to go about resolving this issue.

I think the issue here is not the dress at all. It's how this whole situation was handled. And unless we were right there with DD, Dad and SM from the beginning it would be difficult to judiciously form an opinion on what instigated this issue. So, IMO, the thing to do is work on having the DD fix this issue herself. With assistance, of course, but not doing it for her.

Remember KKNY, I have a SM. I am one as well, but a "long-distance, get to be a friend not a mommy, let dad handle everything, very little drama, no SM/BM issues" SM. I am also a mother. If anything, I will take the BM's side more often because I know what it's like to deal with an "evil SM". My SM and I STILL have issues that I'm working on. One thing though... my mom hurt the relationship more than helped it, and a lot of it was with, I think, good intentions. So I am VERY careful not to let my prejudices color her relationships with other people in her life. I was very torn, loyalty-wise, between mom and dad, but not between mom and SM. I knew clearly my loyalty was with BM. But I manipulated them against one another, and the older I get the more I can see the role I played as a young adult in the dramas that played out in our family. Not then, but I wish my mom had been clear enough to not jump on my SM's back every time she and I had a disagreement and I went to mommy to fix it. Very easy to pin the tail on the SM. Not so easy to spin around blindfolded and take it off again and put it where it really belongs.


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RE: The dress -- part two

Even if DD actually chose that dress, it doesn't mean it fit right when it was delivered. Dress didn't fit so DD ended up not wearing it.

On plenty of occcassion I bought my DD somehting that didn't fit right, guess what, i returned it.

Even if original idea was DD's, so what? she is a child. SM in as an adult, she could expect that dresses on a computer screen do look different. and dresses borrowed from a friend who is of a different size won't fit right.

what to be offended about? If i buy myself a dress online, i guarantee it won't fit right. It is just common sense!


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what?

I missed that! whose SM shaved whose child's legs and waxed her lips. who was that? SD was 9? you kidding right. I would be beyond furious if somebody shaved my child's legs at 9, how inappropriate, how wrong on every level. is that the same woman with dress for a dance? oh my. lip waxing? at what age? this is so very wrong.


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RE: The dress -- part two

"He didn't sign the birth certificate at birth because he wasn't present. I was advised by my attorney to not have him present."

And why did your attorney advise you not to have them there. And did you leave the jurisdcition when you were pregnant. Did you and your family just not want him there? Is it with your family's money they bought you out of step problems (along with your paid for college and condo)? Then please dont feel like you can give advice to people who didnt buy there way out.


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RE: Posted on the first thread

* Posted by mom_of_2.5 (My Page) on
Tue, Oct 6, 09 at 10:16

Wow, I was busy yesterday and didn't get back to read the responses. Only having a few minutes before work this morning I'll try to shed a little more light. When she brought the 3 dresses home, I was careful not to insult any of them incase she loved one, I only made the suggestion that she might find a better fit by trying them on in a store. They didn't have zippers, just elastic around the back that was loose and saggy.
NORMALLY her Dad and I get along very well.
Some of you may remember her SM is the one with no boundries, she had my DD shaving her legs at 9, had her lip waxed at 12, has felt free to cut my DD's hair. I don't like that she doesn't respect that DD has a mom (literally she makes her CD's and writes "for little girl, love, mommy" all over them) but I don't really make a big deal of any of it. I kind of suspect that might be what their problem is with this situation that I, her actual mom, handled a milestone before SM could take it away. It's the only explanation that makes even a little sense to me.
I really don't understand how they thought it would be ok to bring home 3 dresses and say chose A,B, or C. I just think it's SO WEIRD! Doesn't every HS girl go to the mall and try on their own dress?

I still really want to call and take it up with him. DD asked me not to, I just really want to ask him what he's thinking!


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RE: KKNY, please stop, you're just being mean.

KKNY, now you're totally off-topic, slam-bashing, etc. Please stop. It's a public forum, everyone is entitled to their opinion regardless of how they conduct their personal life. Even if it were true, OP did not ask for advice only from those who didn't "...buy there (sic) way out".


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Bashing -- ONLY One Way allowed

Gee SS, I've been bashed beyond beleif, but for someone who used an attorney to keep dad and/or any potential steps away from her kid -- maybe OP should know.


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Attorneys -- only for Hadley

When I suggest to OP she discuss with attorney CS and college, I get a barage, of oh dont get attorney involved. I guess only for Hadley.


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RE: The dress -- part two

Is something wrong KK?
You've been so angry on this post, lashing out in a lot of different directions. The last six months have been so mild...


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RE: The dress -- part two

Well I resent this jump on a child and mom. If facts arent clear assume the worst. Even when SM has been shown to lack judgement (the lips and legs were physical evidenc) -- but still assume the kid is loved by the rational SM.

And for people who would use every legal way to avoid step situation, but want to give the benefit of doubt to SMs, its just hypocritcal.

I strongly advise OP.

1. Call dad, say sorry about situation. Please tell me your read on it.

2. OP sounds like a mom who will listen. SM doesnt.

3. OP should say sorry again, but lets try to communicate better. Feel out gently if dad will get SM to back off. Unlikely.

4. D call SM. Say sorry. LHAO.

5. Mom needs to talk to lawyer. Even if dad has been reasonable, teen years are rough on many parents. If SM continues to be unreasonable and dad treats DD poorly, mom should be maxing out CS and see what is deal for college in her state.


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kkny

" for someone who used an attorney to keep dad and/or any potential steps away from her kid"

You know, KK, I think you're hitting way below the belt. I don't know why you are attacking me so personally here.

I didn't "use money" to keep him out. You really think it made a difference?

I had sex with the wrong guy, KK. I was young, immature, in college, having a fun summer off from classes, drinking & floating the river a lot, and being 20 years old. Hooked up with the wrong guy, got pregnant and found myself not sure what to do.

We tried to make a relationship out of what had really been nothing other than a fling. It didn't work. Fall started and I was back to taking 12 credits a semester while being pregnant. He was 24 and loafing around, living with his parents and then moving into my apartment and not doing much of anything except drinking, going out, and being a 24 yr old guy.

It got worse and worse. I felt more and more alone and scared.

We broke up the month before she was born because he was staying out till all hours, not contributing anything financially, smoking pot and then I found a condom in his pocket. That was it for me.

I asked him to move out, he did, and that was that.

So, no, you know what? I really didn't want him present at the birth. I had enough stress and worry without throwing that onto the plate.

Is that fair? I don't know. He certainly hadn't stepped up to the plate at that point and given that I was the one who was pregnant and actually LOOKING FORWARD TO THE BIRTH OF MY BABY GIRL, I wanted to have a special and happy birth experience. I remember my dad telling me to relax---because I was SO upset over what a mess everything was. He said to me "if you don't relax, you are going to miss the joy of your child being born."

I moved back to my home state because I knew it was best for my daughter and myself. I knew it would alter the course of things but I thought it best at the time and I STILL do. Her dad has been in jail, he has an interlock device on his car b/c of multiple DUIs, he's never shown a bit of interest or even paid his MEASLY child support.

So yeah--I think I did the right thing by my child.

And let's face it---I couldn't keep him away if he WANTED to be involved.

I didn't hire some fancy-schmancy team of attorneys. I hired a family friend who is an attorney and filed a simply paternity suit. I asked that DAD's name be put on the birth cert.

He asked for NOTHING. He didn't want anything. It even says it in the plan. "Respondent acknowledges he has little interest in relatinship with child." Or something along those lines. In our plan, he has reasonable visitation if he gives 3 weeks notice, and he has access to her via phone, letters, etc. He's done NOTHING. What does that have to do with money?

I don't know why you're so angry at me all of a sudden.

Or what this thread has to do with me. Good grief.


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quote

"And for people who would use every legal way to avoid step situation"
Hey KK, want to talk about being hypocrites? I remember a specific thread where YOU defended me and said that BD could have been involved if he wanted to.

I inted to go find that and quote you directly.


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Perfect SMs

But you made it as difficult as you could for him to see child. Presumably becuse you were concerned as a mother. I dont blame you, I would ask for you to have more compassion and understanding for those who have to send off their precious children to stepmothers. You may have a SS whose mother is appreciably less than perfect and has brought you much ansk. This mom doesnt appear to be the same. And yet no compassion for her. Just blame for child Blame for mom. Perfect SM.


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replying

I don't think I made it as difficult as I could have, that's for sure.

I purchased two plane tickets for him to come to my state to see her! Once when she was about 6 months, one at about 7 months.

The distance made it more difficult, but you really think, given the way he is, it would have made a diff? A deadbeat is a deadbeat, whether 2000 miles away or 2 mins away. JMO.

I certainly didn't make it as hard as I could have. Remember, I FILED the suit. I opened the door for him! I could have changed my phone number, not been in contact with him and hidden.

I didn't do anything like that.

I've called him the couple times I've been back to his state to visit, asking if he wanted to see her.

So while I agree that my moving home made it MORE difficult for him, I certainly didn't make it "as difficult as I could."

And I don't see anywhere in these posts where I've been less than compassionate? I told OP I agreed with her and could understand the special mother/daughter shopping expeirence. I told her I felt SM had overstepped her bounds in many ways.

What do you want me to say? That SM is a psycho, immature jerk like you did? I won't say that because I don't think it's true and I don't think OP thinks so either!


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SM -- one of those who love her best???

Hadley,

You said

"Posted by lovehadley (My Page) on Wed, Oct 7, 09 at 13:49

"The question you posed was "How do I encourage her to stand up for herself?" My answer is: Dont rescue her. Tell her that she needs to communicate her likes and dislikes, and if she isnt happy with something to speak up. A wise person once said, you may get disappointed, but if you never ask a girl to dance, youll never get to dance. Basically, if you dont say "I dont prefer that, can we keep looking" you will go to the dance in a dress you dont prefer. I will not rescue you. I love you, and I want you to be pretty, but being able to communicate effectively is more important in the long run. Going to the dance in a pretty dress may make her feel pretty, but will not help her being "socially stunted" issue in the future. Learning to communicate clearly with those who love her best is a good way to enable social ease and confidence"

well said.
indicating that SM was one of those who love her best.

I'ld question that.


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Lets assume SD is just another Spin Doctor

And hadley, you want to assume SD is just spin doctoring this.

How about assuming what we're told. Oh know -- that would put a SM in a bad light, and we cant do that.


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RE: The dress -- part two

"I would ask for you to have more compassion and understanding for those who have to send off their precious children to stepmothers."

I had to do that.
We had our turf battles.
She called his doctors and wrote to his teachers disagreeing with my decisions (which later proved to be right)
She allowed Ex to stand uncorrected when he introduced her to DS's teachers as DS's Mom.
And she STILL signs stuff 'Love, Mom'

But I did what was best for my son and made peace with her.
And now he loves her like a second mother and benefits from the love and guidance of two mothers who both love him like their own.
Does it hurt sometimes? Yeah.
Especially having had to witness Ex's destruction of DS's bond with his StepFather.
They were so close until Ex decided DS could have TWO Mommies but only ONE Dad - him.

As BioMoms, I think we have enormous power when it comes to the relationships our children have with their StepParents. It is generally easily within our power to destroy those relationships. To shatter the fragile trust our children place in these other adults with an oh-so-casual remark... To safeguard their loyalty to us by making it hard for them to love another.

But what's the result? A child who sasses, manipulates, lies to, ignores or disrespects the StepParent. Which predictably produces a StepParent who resents this bratty child and is unable to form genuine bonds of love. Which the children sense, making them feel unlovable and angry. Causing them to act worse and worse and making them less and less lovable. What a vicious circle!

Yes, maybe my child's love has been divided --
But it's also been multiplied.


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RE: The dress -- part two

Dotz,

Everyone assumes the kid is manipulative, etc. Why is it so wrong for mom to call dad and get his side of story?

You and I will have to agree to disagree, I think having facts is best. But the facts so far dont point to treating SM as a loving one.


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I m just sayin

Maybe she was trying to be nice...I do my best...Facts sure, I didnt say kids manipulative, but I m thinking that is an option....Lots of BM and BD dont speak at all, hard to get back story....


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RE: The dress -- part two

Why do I suddenly feel like I'm in high school again?

All this situation needed was communication - between D and dad/SM, mom and dad/SM, and mom and D. As OP stated, they typically do this well. Kudos to them all. If each party had reached out to the other before taking action, there would be no issue.

We don't know enough 'facts' to determine how or why the dress was ordered. It really doesn't matter. As Silver put it so well, a little grace after it arrived would have diffused the entire issue. Regardless of whether SM should have ordered the dress, it was done. There were then two choices - address it head on, or dance around it. If one strives to teach their kids 'real life' they would encourage them to deal with it. This did not happen.

IMO, dad and SM had every right to be hurt by D's actions and lack of grace. Did they overreact in their punishment? Very likely so. But I think OP missed a big step here - teaching D to stand up to them after the damage is done is not the best lesson. Teaching D to prevent the damage seems the best choice, and this is done through clear communication.


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RE: KKNY, please get your quotes straight

KKNY, please go back and look again. Love wasn't the one who wrote what you attributed to her below, I was. And I stand by what I said. Here it is again:

* Posted by kkny (My Page) on Wed, Oct 7, 09 at 17:53

Hadley,
"Posted by lovehadley (My Page) on Wed, Oct 7, 09 at 13:49

That's incorrect. I wrote the below paragraph.

SILVER: "The question you posed was "How do I encourage her to stand up for herself?" My answer is: Dont rescue her. Tell her that she needs to communicate her likes and dislikes, and if she isnt happy with something to speak up. A wise person once said, you may get disappointed, but if you never ask a girl to dance, youll never get to dance. Basically, if you dont say "I dont prefer that, can we keep looking" you will go to the dance in a dress you dont prefer. I will not rescue you. I love you, and I want you to be pretty, but being able to communicate effectively is more important in the long run. Going to the dance in a pretty dress may make her feel pretty, but will not help her being "socially stunted" issue in the future. Learning to communicate clearly with those who love her best is a good way to enable social ease and confidence" (end quote silver)

KKNY: "well said.indicating that SM was one of those who love her best. I'ld question that."

If you have something to say about it, please talk to me. Get off Love's back already!!!


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RE: The dress -- part two

@kkny and anyone else on this issue,

My neighbor's daughter turned 16 during the last school year and was offered some "handmedown" dresses for her prom as money is tight at their house right now.

One of the dresses came from a childhood friend who is now a New York runway model. I saw the dresses myself. None were tacky, all worn once and the one from the model was SPECTACULAR. Couture all the way and gorgeous. The daughter did not want it because it was a "handmedown" although she too looked like a runway model with it on. Her mother chose not to force the issue although I'll tell you that my mother sure would have done!! I went to her going to prom party and her dress was nice but nothing special vs. the couture dress worn ONCE by an old friend. Did I mention that the dad of the model is a friend of the ex-husband? That clearly had something to do with my neighbor's reaction to the "used" couture dress. In a word, STUPID. If I could have fit it, it would be in my closet right now! The dress was offered as a gift, FREE, and to keep as the childhood friend wears many such dresses.

Kids, including young ladies of 16, don't always make the best decisions on fashion, money or family relationships. I am so glad that I only have a boy! This whole thing sounds like a crazy turf battle to me. I'm not saying she should have accepted any of these dresses but she will barely remember what she wore without photos in two years. And you are right, online might mean Nordstroms, might mean Wal-Mart, might mean off of the Paris runway. Online doesn't mean cheap at all.

The OP, in my view, should counsel her daughter to learn to talk directly to her Dad and SM about such things before they erupt like this. Cheap, like the free couture dress, is not necessarily the worst. And what a prom dress has to do with college savings is a mystery to me.


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lamom

"Online doesn't mean cheap at all. "
it didn't fit. no matter how expensive. mom took her shopping to buy what fits and spent time trying clothes. SM said: it is juts a dance she doesn't need to try 20 dresses. that's where the issue is.


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RE: The dress -- part two

LH you don't need to explain or defend yourself. You've done everything you can for your DD in regards to her biological father, simple as that. No need to try and convince KKNY who is always going to keep the discussion going and who will go as low as she has been.

When I read KKNY's replies it is clear to me that she has issues, don't indulge it. You've got enough going on in your real life, this is only the internet. Take the good and leave the bad.

On the topic of SM's calling themselves 'Mommy' , that is insane to me. I'm not a BM. only an SM but I would never say anything like that to my skids. I can't believe that Mom of 2.5 and Sweeby handled it as well as they did, you guys have A LOT of patience. If I was a BM (but I'm not planning on that) I would be concerned and also annoyed, to say the least. To want to call other people's kids your own; if that makes you feel better then you have issues.

When we go places sometimes people will mistake me for their mom (shop assistants etc) so I point out that I'm their SM, and a very lucky one, or something along those lines. How embarrassing for the skids if SM calls herself 'mommy'.


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