Thermometer, I think there are a number of grounds. Guliana got an annulment on the grounds that he unknowlingly married his cousin. Kinda hard for me to beleive, but OK.

The Catholic Church is free to issue annulments as it sees fit, but if I were OP I would not sign anything not true. Which I think is good advice in general.

It really doesnt matter what you sign, or dont sign...This is symbolic, it is a religious matter only.....There are NO legal ramifications....

Well I guess I dont know all the legal ramnifications -- what if there were a custody dispute and this were entered, but only moms, not sms, get critized for giving legal advice here. Ima, any comments??

In any event, I sure wouldnt want anyone showing the statement suggested signed by me to MY daughter.

KKNY, This is NOT legal advice, your divorce is between you and the state..These are religious convictions...If your child is raised in this religion, they will know what we believe on divorce and end of marriage...And really not feel like a poor lil bas%%%D....Personally, I think Sheila Kennedy just didnt want to let go.... I applaud her if in fact these were convictions, but hanging on for ten years to reverse this seems a bit much to me....

Oh come on dotz, how can you say "There are NO legal ramifications" is not legal advice. YOu may be right, but Ima and others critize/threaten me if I say something that is legal advice. Double standard here.

Even if you are correct, I wouldnt want soemone showing my child that statement being proposed. Let Dad figure out on his own how to get annulment.

PS -- my understanding is that Sheila didnt pursue this for 10 years -- she only found out the annulment was reverseed when she read it in the paper.

not to hijack your thread but i have a similar story (minus annulment request)

let me tell you, my exhusband converted to Christianity last year, and married a woman in the same faith, mind you all of a sudden he is religious Christian and talks about G_d and his minister all the time. (he didn't tell me about conversion, I saw my X shortly before his remarriage and saw a huge cross on his neck, I almost fell of the chair and lost my speech)

When we were still married my X was a big supporter of alliyah for all Jews and obtained us papers to move to Israel. Mind you i am a practicing Jew, was even more parcticing than my X, but have no interest to live in Israel, so i said no, he threw a huge fit and that was a huge crack in our marriage that subsequently led to our divorce. So we partially divorced because my devoted Jew husband wanted to live in a homeland but now he wears a huge cross and is a devoted Christian. I find it hillarious.

I mean i understand people convert because they develop connection to a different faith or find somehting important in a different faith, it is prefectly fine, but what a coinsidence, he mets a woman of that faith and now all of a sudden his beliefs change. ha

So your X met Catholic woman, now he is catholic and annuling your marriage, tomorrow he will be Muslim if he meets Muslim woman, and will annul his previous marriages, what a joke.

Now as i am thinking. I and my X were married by a justice (we never had religious wedding because we grew up under regime that didn't allow that or made it too hard to obtain) in eyes on his church he probably was never married before, he probably married his 2nd wife as a single never married man. he certainly would not dare to ask me to sign any annulments, he knows me well, but he probably didn't even need it! ha makes me want to ask him....

bottom line: DO NOT SIGN ANYTHING. this man probably is not even serious about his new faith and might change his mind.

I am catholic and so is my dh. He was married in a courthouse to his first wife. In the eyes of the catholic church they were not married. So when we got married we did it in a catholic church. It was my first marriage and I had waited my whole life for the white dress and big church wedding!

The annulment was just a piece of paper that allowed us to marry in the church. My dh's ex never had to sign it. And we don't consider his children born out of wedlock.

As for who your daughter meets you really have no control of things like that during your ex's parenting time. His time is his time. I was once told by my lawyer that as long as my son was not in danger that my ex could leave our son with his girlfriend for the whole weekend while he was out of town as long as he was the one who picked our child up! You have to accept that your ex is moving on (whether you like his choice or not). Unless this woman proves to be a danger to your daughter there is nothing you can do if he really wants this woman around her.

KKNY, These are religious documents,annulment papers, there are no legal issues because of the seperation of church and state..If you wouldnt feel comfortable signing them, you dont have to..Its not necessary..I got an annulment, my Ex didnt sign , he did not have to..Fine, I dont think its fair to call it a joke when someone converts.. We have many converts to our faith, my brothers wife being one..My sister is in fact married to a Muslim, he did not want to convert, but he made a promise to raise the children in our Faith, which he is doing....

Dotz, I understand that they are religous papers. Excuse me -- how can you say there are not legal issues? Are you a laywer? Would you like to be giving a deposition on a custody matter and have the attorney questioning you about them?? I wouldnt. I would suggest to OP do not sign, but in any event, dont sign unless your lawyer says OK. This has nothing to do about my understanding of the Catholic church, but my belief that some people and some attorneys will twist things to there advantage.

As to the grounds that you got an annullment, don't know. But all you are pointing out is that you got one WITHOUT your x signing, so OPs X should be able to do that and She should not sign.

FD, the GF has shown herself to have no moral character. So has dad, but there's not much that can be done about that. My advice is always -- ROFR.

OP is already divorced...I said if you dont feel comfortable signing it, DONT...But it doesnt matter...He ll get the it, more than likely, 90 per cent of those who apply do get it....What would change of religion have to do with custody? I dont think the state will step in and say Sir, we re giving you custody, we like your religion better than OPs... And Yeah, the girl and her family sound like pieces of work, no doubt about that...

"As for who your daughter meets you really have no control of things like that during your ex's parenting time. His time is his time"

it is not true.

if they are married then yes nothing can be done. but if it is just a dating situation then papers might be obtained that minor children not to be around GF/BF, especially not overnight. My SO's lawyer suggested to put such provision when his DD was minor as her to never be around mom's BF. it is a very common thing. GF or BF has no legal standing. parents absolutelly have control over BF/GF being around their chidlren.

also i find it strange that you think it is OK for your exhusbands previous marriage to be nonexistant. maybe because you weren't married before. But i would not consider my previous marriage nonexistant just because X decides he will practice different faith or want to marry in church. i find it offensive. maybe my X did the same thing in his new church, claimed that our marriage didn't exist, he wouldn't dare to tell me, but I find it offensive.

It is not just a piece of paper. just because you wanted white dress and church wedding you think it is OK to annul somehting between your Ex and someone else. maybe because his exwife is a jerk it is OK. but not every ex wife or previous marriages are crap. some are actually decent.

if i am to marry again and I would have to annul mine or anyone else's previous marriages I would never ever go for that. would you be OK if your DH annul your marriage to marry someone else? i don't think so.

"Fine, I dont think its fair to call it a joke when someone converts.. ...."

of course it is not a joke and plenty of people convert to different relgions based on their beliefs, it is very respectful decision, i never said otherwise. It is a joke if people randomly converting to please their new partners and demand their previous lives to be erased, like all of a sudden previous marriages don't exist. What is next?

That's why some religions are very difficult to convert to, very lengthy process, to ensure it is done out of a serious thought not out of pleasing new GF/BF. I don't get it how can one do it so quick and so easy, suspicious right there.

and no, annulment and divorce is not the same thing. divorce means we were married and had a child in marriage but it didn't work out, annulment means we weren't married and children were born out of wedlock. if everybody things it is OK, fine, you go and annul your marriages. I do not think it is OK. especially if people decide to convert back and forth why do exspouces have to accommodate?

you want to marry again but your church says no, then don't marry in church, but do not erase your past and embarass your exspouces and chidlren.

Dotz, I am not arguing that the X will not get an annulment. I would not want a signed statement by me saying marriage never existed, and child was illegitimate. What if judge said, what type of mother would sign that??? What does it say about ME? I wouldnt care if my X remarried in church or not, that is his problem, but I would not lie or misconstrue facts to help him.

The child is NOT illegitimate!!!!! Please google the annulment process...I cannot explain church doctrine in a post. A judge would NEVER say what type of mother would sign this!!!!!! Its not civil business!!!!

Dotz, how can you say a judge would never say that? Are you an attorney specializng in family law?

And furthermore, what if DAD shows it to child -- for whatever reason.

Dotz, face it, if dad wants an annulment, its on him to get it.

the way this dad sounds (a jerk) he would certainly show it to a child at some point.

and the way his GF sounds (also a jerk) she could tell a child: "your mommy was never married to a daddy and she even signed a paper about that. our marriage is real, but your mom's and dad's wasn't."

If he wants to erase his past, he can go ahead, but his exwife should not accommodate him. it would be a big mistake of her to put her signature on something that is not true, it will come back to bite her and her child.

why I told you a judge would never say it...Its out of his scope of the law, to adjudge my religion and not care for my churches policies...You just dont get the concept that this is seperate from a civil divorce. I dont specialize in Family Law, but I have 50 plus years experience with the church....

"A declaration of nullity states that, according to Church law, a given marriage was not valid (and therefore not binding) at the time a couple spoke their marriage vows. A declaration of nullity states that a marriage was invalid from the beginning. The annulment process, in its most simple form, involves any person coming to the Church and asking to be heard. Information is gathered by us and in the end, we answer that person's request: the marriage was invalid or valid according to the laws of the Church"

So this guy asks his exwife to sign that marriage was not valid from the very beginning? this jerk wants to collect such a lie, he can go ahead, he already showed he is a jerk, but how dare he asking his exwife to lie? i hope she is not stupid to do that.

But it is within a judge's scope to judge the character of both parties. And consider how they will treat children. Which is why it is so critical that OP not sign this. I agree, if X gets annulment with no help from OP, no big deal.

And what is your response to what if Dad shows it to child -- put so well by FD. There is no response to that.

If I was annulled from the marriage I had with my childs father, I would in no way be ashamed to show it to him...He was raised in the church and understands what the concept is, and knows it doesnt illegitimze him

maybe judge would say nothing, but this child sure would say something when she sees annulment papers (especially if it is signed by mom). maybe ti doesn't mean she is illegitimate but it sure means mom and dad were never married.

we know this is a lie HOW????

Dotz, that is your perogative. OP's child was not (at least up till now) raised in the church. If you do not see FD's scenario as at least possible, you are blinded by either your support for an immoral SM (and Dad) or your time/difficulty spent in obtaining an annulment.

OP please do not listen to Dotz. YOU have nothing to gain by signing and can lose your child's respect.

My DD would be upset to learn that mom's and dad's marriage is invalid, doesn't matter what faith her dad is practicing now and what his church says. our marriage was valid, so was OP's.

and what is so hypocritical this jerk thinks that cheating on his wife is OK. or it was OK to cheat because his marraige was invalid anyways?

Dotz,

Now you are asking us to assume that marriage did not exist is not a lie. That's a little farfetched. I assume what you are saying is that the marriage did not exist under Catholic law. Which is not for OP to determine in any event.

"we know this is a lie HOW????"

because OP never told us her marriage was invalid or they were married on false pretences etc. their marriage was valid. saying otherwise is a lie.

the only person gaining somehting out of mom signing is dad (less time and difficulty in obtaining annulment). his child gains nothing. so why does mom have to accommodate immoral exhusband's decisions? why? so he can do what he wants? well he can anyways. he cheats, he converts, he negates the past, he marries, he is free to do all that. but why does she have to be an accomplice? i just don't get it.

i hope OP won't get brainwsed and sign this paper. i would not trust immoral ex and GF in one beat. Now it doesn't matter what we think of annulments etc what matters is that mom should not sign anything, there is no reason for her to sign anything.

Erin, I NEVER said for you to sign ANYTHING... This is a situation about a bad acting piece of crap Ex trying to change his religion...You do not have to participate in this in any way...Fine, was DD upset when the state said your marriage was invalid in the divorce? KKNY The Concept is not that the marriage didnt exist, its that the sacremental marriage didnt exist....

"Fine, was DD upset when the state said your marriage was invalid in the divorce?"

Huh? Our divorce papers never said our marriage is invalid, it said it was terminated.

It never said we weren't married in the first place. My divorce papers have two lines in there that says marriage that was consummated on such date was terminated on such date, it never says it didn't exist. More so neither my marriage nor my divorce involves lies.

"A declaration of nullity states that, according to Church law, a given marriage was not valid (and therefore not binding) at the time a couple spoke their marriage vows. A declaration of nullity states that a marriage was invalid from the beginning"

My divorce papers say none of that, so my DD could not possibly be upset over invalidity of our marriage, our marriage was valid.

If my X decides to say otherwise, I cannot prevent him, but I sure wouldn't be an accomplice.

There is a difference between saying the sacremental marriage did not exist and saying it ended. We all understand that we are only talking about Church law. We understand that trust me. While I think most children are upset when marriage is over, THE STATE DOES NOT GENERALLY SAY IT WAS INVALID. The state says it is terminated, it is ended. The state does not treat it as invalid, but valid during the period the parties were married.

Dotz, I am truly sorry for honorably people who have spent their lives as Catholic and who can not remarry in the Church without an annulment -- but that doesn't make this OP's problem. As you said, many people obtain annulmnets, without the assistance of a former spouse. So what -- that doesnt mean OP should sign anything.

OP, please come back. I am also curious what you meant by you "have to sign" the paper and X is "pressuring you" to let his GF meet D? How is this happening? Is he threatening not to pay CS or take child?

It seems to me that a lot of this discussion is based on mistaken beliefs about what exactly the OP was asked to sign and what it means, both in terms of what it says about the marriage and what it means about the child's legitimacy.

The link below is to a FAQ about annulment within the Catholic church. What it says seems pretty clear to me.

Speaking as someone whose parents got divorced and had their marriage annulled within the Catholic church, I don't think I ever cared two cents about the paperwork or what the technical details of the process said about my parents' marriage. What mattered to me, and I suspect what matters most to most kids, was the way that the divorce affected my day-to-day life. When the adults get into power struggles and start playing games, the kids inevitably pay for it in one way or another. If the child's best interests are truly what matters, it seems to me that it would be a good idea to think honestly about what's likely to matter the most to the kid.

I don't know how toxic the GF or the ex really are. But I do think it's pretty toxic between the divorced parents if their relationship is such that Mom is mad at Dad and the GF, so she withholds paperwork that allowed him to marry in his GF's church, which then makes Dad and the GF mad. Or more mad, as the case may be. Don't kid yourself that the Mom's role in contributing to that situation is any more child-neutral than any of the other options.

Here is a link that might be useful: FAQs about Annullment in Catholic Church

I strongly disagree with you. First of, mom "withholding paperwork" is paperwork where she is asked to lie. Second, did you read the original post -- would you not be mad at a man who cheated on you and TOW. Is the type of behaivor the Catholic church supprots. You are calling out the wrong person.

Wow, this is even more profound than I thought. People will believe anything because that link is a bunch of hogwash. It speaks only of the legal aspect of annulment. That only means there is no term for the moral and sentimental value that means the same thing as "legitimate" and "illegitimate." That's the issue here, not whether there are any actual legal ramifications. No one thinks there are, but that is all the article in the link addresses. This OP, Sheila Rausch Kennedy, and others in their same shoes have every reason and right to feel their children are degraded by annulment.

The link is to a site maintained by persons who make their money obtaining annulments. I wonder if they might be biased??? Hmmm.

"so she withholds paperwork"

she does not withhold anything, she is asked to sign something that isn't true. big difference.

so he cheated on his 1st wife, and now he asks his 1st wife to lie so he can remarry. ouch. does his church know about him cheating? or he "withheld' that information?

Thank you Sovra, for speaking what I ve been saying YOU DIDNT CARE TWO CENTS about the paperwork..Degrading your children is in the eye of the beholder...Not Catholic behavior by any means of OPs Ex, but I believe the church also Still practices forgiveness of sins...I would NOT feel I have devalued or degraded MY child if I got an anullment with out lies or being a hypocrite, there are VALID REASONS...Hogwash is also in the eyes of the beholder....Nobodys going to force you into something you dont feel comfortable doing OP or Thermometer

"I would NOT feel I have devalued or degraded MY child if I got an anullment with out lies or being a hypocrite, there are VALID REASONS"

well maybe there are valid reasons for invalidity of your marriage but OP never said that her marriage was invalid in any sense or that she believes her ex has grounds to declare their marriage never existed. it is not what she says.

and once again, you are catholic, your child is catholic, it is OK for you, that's what you were taught. But OP and her daughter are not catholics so it is not Ok for them.

how hard is it to understand that noncatholics do not live by your church law and do not feel that way you do. it is funny how you keep saying what is OK and what is not by a catholic church.

OP and her daughter are not catholics. it is so simple to understand!!!! are you pretending not to get it?

I told her dont sign it!!!!! A church she doesnt belong to holds NO sway over her!!!!!If my ex remarried into a church and they said my son and I were now devilworshippers what would I care????Reality of HER situation is is that her EX can do this, with or without her...One of my points was that children dont have to feel damaged by this process, the adults in their lives may make them feel so.....Are there any self help books out there... Children of Anullment, How to Cope???? Support Groups? Specialists in grieving anullment children?Telethons for their mental health???GEEZ Again, you are critcizing a religious practice, just go on doing what YOU RE comfortable doing...I m OK with it

Erin - Regarding your original question --

You asked about allowing your Ex to introduce your child to his GF / possible future wife.
The simple fact is that you can't prevent it.
But what you can do (possibly) is influence your Ex's decision.

What factors might influence him?
The most powerful factor will be what is best for his daughter -- assuming he cares about that.

Given that you two are now divorced, the 'best' for your daughter will be either that he remain single and devote himself to being a great dad, or that some day, he marry a warm, loving, ethical and emotionally stable woman who will become either a 'second mother' or 'caring adult friend' to your daughter. And in the best case scenario, you and this possible future SM will work together and support one another to do what is best for your precious little girl. This type of cooperation IS possible, if all of the adults involved are mature and agree to put the child's best interests above their own selfish wants and petty differences.

I imagine if you put it to him that way, he will agree with you. (How could he not?)

OK - Now you have some legitimate concerns about this particular young woman. And I'd phrase it in just that way. That you're willing to support his efforts to find a future wife and partner -- but you both need to put your daughter's best interests ahead of anything else. And that you have some concerns...

First, about her character -- to keep company with a married man and develop a relationship with him that undermines his marriage. Without spewing poison on her character (however tempting that may be), this does raise questions about her ethical fiber that your Ex should consider carefully. Are these really the kinds of values he wants passed along to his daughter? And does he always want the shadow of his past infidelity hanging over his marriage?

Second, there's her family of origin. It's unfortunate for her that her father was abusive -- but the simple fact is that parenting behaviors are learned from our own parents. She has learned to be volatile and possibly abusive. Is that what's best for your daughter to experience?

Third, the issue of the annulment. It's as big or as small as you want to make it. I can see how it might make the girl feel illegitimate later on, or how it might be utterly trivial and meaningless to her. Though I'd have some concerns about a woman who would 'undo' a child's parents' marriage just so she can have a fancy church wedding. But don't exaggerate your own honest feelings.

The calmer you can be when expressing your concerns and asking for his honest thoughts, the more your Ex will have to think and come to his own conclusions. Don't TELL him what to do -- He'll get defensive and argue with you. But if you can present the facts in such a light as to bring him to the conclusion ON HIS OWN that this GF is not the best one -- well then, the problem will be solved.

My point--and maybe I should just let it go--is that when the bio-parents are fighting with each other after the divorce is final, it can have a negative impact on the child. And I think that's something worth thinking about when you're about to do something that's likely to contribute to the fighting.

I am not saying that the OP or any other person who has been cheated on doesn't have a right to be angry. My parents divorced because my father cheated on my mother and married the other woman. I saw how it devastated my mother, and I saw how that devastation turned into anger. I would never, ever feel that it is okay to cheat on a spouse, under any circumstances. And I do believe that it says a lot about a person's character when they are willing to cheat on a marriage or with someone who is married.

But.

I think that how a person chooses to act on their justifiable anger is within their control. I also think that a parent who is angry with an ex can say and even believe that they are acting in the child's best interests when in fact, they're really using the child as a way to justify something that is an expression of their own anger. I think that in such situations, it is very easy for "the child's best interests" to turn into something that really isn't very good for the child at all.

I'm not saying the OP is necessarily using the anullment as an way to strike out at her ex or his GF. I really don't know enough about her situation from an unbiased point of view. Her marriage may not be appropriate for anullment and her ex and the GF may be horrible people who should never be allowed around a child. Or maybe her marriage could legitimately be anulled within the Catholic church and her ex and the GF aren't monsters, but are rather people with flawed characters. I don't know. I'm just saying that not signing, whatever else may be true, is likely to escalate the struggle between her and her ex. This may be worth it and in the child's best interests. But there is a possibility that it isn't. I think that it's something to think about when making this sort of decision.

Dear OP, please dont listen to that. No one but your X will know you wont sign this untruthful peice of paper. If he choses to tell your child, its on him. He can marry if he wants. H*ll he can even get married in the Lady Chapel of St. Patricks, but not by a priest, if he or the brides family will write a big enough check.

OP, you dont know who anyone is on the internet. Listen to yourself, or your own lawyer. Don't sign things that aren't true. It is never a good idea. You don't know how they can come back to haunt you. This is not about holding up paperwork -- its about telling the truth. Isnt that what we tell kids to do? Or is only stepchildren that get crtiized for lying?

I was replying to Sovra, not sweeby.

I agree with most of what Sweeby said, but I would also talk to lawyer re ROFR.

My dh's first marriage was annuled in the church. In the eyes of the catholic church they were never married because they were never married at a catholic church by a priest. They were married in a courthouse. My dh's ex was not even catholic.....so why would she care what the catholic church says about her marriage?? According to the state they were married and divorced....the annulment does not change that!

As for parenting time your correct about those provisions being added into a parenting agreement. My dh's agreement had those provisions and his ex broke them and had her bf around the kids from the get go. My parenting agreement did not have such provisions. At the time it was not standard and neither of us even thought of such terms. Now I know that things like that are added in a lot, but I did not get the impression that they were in op's agreement.

thermometer.. this is what i based my earlier statement on:

"Please keep your daughter far away from that woman. It's bad enough she wants herself, your ex, and you to lie to the church, but she obviously has no respect for your ex and doesn't think much at all of his daughter - all for her own selfish, lying, cheating purposes. Why would even he want them to meet? Grant either of these two requests, and you will regret it for a very, very long time."

Sounds like a lot of blaming TOW... How is she disrespecting OP's ex? and how do you know what she thinks of his daughter? It just sounded like you are placing a lot on TOW, not the ex that cheated and is the one pushing for his daughter to meet TOW.

Ima, they are both to blame, but it is much more difficult to keep the child away from the dad. Also the violence is the GFs family.

So the parent who cheats should never see their child again is that what you are saying?

Good plan

"Though I'd have some concerns about a woman who would 'undo' a child's parents' marriage just so she can have a fancy church wedding."

exactly

"Now I know that things like that are added in a lot, but I did not get the impression that they were in op's agreement."

It could be added there later if parents learn some details such as violent behaviors in the family. i am not saying this girl should not meet GF, she could eventually meet her especially if it is a serious relationship with the future (highly doubt but oh well), but I am saying that parents do have a say so in this situation. maybe mom has no control over her marriage being annuled, but she sure has some control who her child associate with

" "Though I'd have some concerns about a woman who would 'undo' a child's parents' marriage just so she can have a fancy church wedding."
exactly "

Well I think that my hubby's ex undid their marriage when she decided she wanted a boyfriend instead of her husband and kids. So in comparison an annulment so we could have a church wedding isn't really such a big deal.

i didn't mean you whatsoever. if your DH's ex is no good, it doesn't mean every marriage is this way. i wasn't talking about your situation, my point is about OP, not you. OP never said that she cheated and left her husband, it was the other way around. she also never said that she abandoned her children the way your DH's ex did. so if you had a serious reason to annul their marriage it doesn't mean everyone has that reason. her leaving and abandoning might as well be good enough reason, i don't know what reasons church is looking for.

I personally never abandoned my child, never cheated and would be hurt if my X annuled our marriage and more so asked me to sign for it. i would be hurt so is OP. it is not about you. your situation is different, his ex sucked big time, you weren't married before, and you were raised in that tradition. but i understand how OP feels.