I know two families who are having similar troubles with their teenage sons.

One sent him off to a "boot camp school" which, while hideously expensive, really helped for a while. When he returned, he had learned respect, hard work, and self-esteem -- was a pleasure to be around for a while. Unfortunately, after two years back at home, things regressed almost back to where they were (minus the violence). But by this time, Junior was 18 and they booted him out. He's couch-surfing and working a low-end job that he hates, and talking about going to community college to get his life together. Time will tell...

The other Mom dumped Junior on Grandma (who has minimal Alzheimers), and he comes and goes as he pleases. So long as no one tells him what to do, he's not dangerous; but he's certainly not moving forward in his life. I expect he'll visit jail sometime in the short term future for something petty... But Mom's marriage is surviving and his sister is safe.

In both cases, the boys were diagnosed young with ADHD and possible ODD and were medicated sporadically (rather than not at all or consistently). In both cases, the boys were good-looking, athletic, and appealing to girls looking for a 'bad boy'... Mom's never could manage the boys -- one was very strict and a bit of a yeller; the other was a doormat who tried to 'reason' with him but gave up quickly then wouldn't support StepDad when he tried to enforce limits. BioDad wasn't around in either case -- one travelled for work; the other simply left.

Sadly, at this point, it's probably him or you...

Unfortunately the law has made the choice for her. She's stuck with him until he's of legal age which in South Carolina is 17. I can't wait another six months and live with this. And having him move back with his father right now isn't an option though I believe it's simply a matter of short time before he quits school and if he does, she intends on throwing him out then. I'm just having such a visceral reaction to living with him at this point that I can't stand the sight of him. She feels a responsibility for him until that time at least regardless of what happens. She also feels that removing him from my house will give us a chance at salvaging our relationship, but it's just hard for me to conceive this because I feel she should push the issue with his father now rather than wait. The father doesn't want him though but if he quits schools she won't keep him at home so the kid will either go back to his father's or couch surfing

I also have a colleague who sent his son to one of those military schools and the same thing happened with regard to reverting back to the same BS behaviors. And yes, my partner's son is ADHD; and although not diagnosed with ODD; it certainly seems feasable to me that he should be. He's defiant as hell. He itches to start arguments with adults to no end. He's a little b@st#ge.

Trish -- I dont think anyone should get involved with someone who is a parent unless they are prepared tohave the kids live with them. Circumstances change. I dont know what the answer is, but I wouldnt be prepared to write off any 17YO.

Trish,
I remember very well your initial post last year. It was around the end of June or early July and you must have received close to 100 follow-up posts. I am sorry your relationship didn't work out, but it wasn't for lack of trying. It sounded like a nightmare 12 months ago. Maybe with you being out of the picture, your former partner will have no choice except to make some tough decisions. She is eventually going to hit bottom with her DS. You're also right about the situation being unfair to the the younger sister. If nothing else, and as harsh as it sounds, BM has to put her DD's welfare ahead of her DS's. Good luck, Trish. Who knows, given time things may turn around one day and you two can have another chance.

Trish,
I'm sorry things have come to this. I remember your initial post too. While I didn't agree with the "difficult child will never live here" scenario, because that is never a guarantee, I wholly respect the honesty behind it. You have made the right decision. I hope your (ex) partner can at least give her daughter the love, attention and respect that she deserves. I'm pretty certain that her son will not turn around, which is very sad for everyone.

but I wouldnt be prepared to write off any 17YO.

------------

Well, then I supposed I could conclude that you either didn't read everything I wrote, are a masochist or a saint. I wonder if you'd say that if you were the recipient of police banging on your door at midnight bringing the little darling home. His mother isn't writing him off..yet. But NO ONE and I mean NO ONE should have to put up with it. That's not writing him off, it's stopping the madness of enabling the little ignorant @ss. When I think of my neighbor's stories of counseling at risk kids who live in the projects; kids who who would give their right arm to have a home like ours; who live in run down apartment projects and try so hard to make something of themselves, but poverty and ignorance and then I juxtapose these kids with all the opportunities given to my partner's son and having them tossed aside like garbage? Naa.. He needs a good dose of reality and if that means living in a cardboard box then so be it.

Trish, I stand by what I said. If someone said that to me... It sounds like you are objectifying a person, making their sexuality more important than their nurturing of a child. Maybe I read into it wrong. I do that sometims.

The thing is, I am a mother first and foremost. ANY other relationship has to take second fiddle to my child. Not that my child knows this, of course. But my husband knows that if push came to shove, it's the two of us who would be splitting, not my daughter. But, I would never let my child run amok like your partner did either. That was just wrong. And, for that you have my sympathy. But no parent can reasonably say that there is no chance their child will not be living with them at some point. It's illogical, and I am sorry you didn't realize that it was not a promise a parent could keep.

My mother once gave her partner a similar choice. Your daughter, or me. Her partner choose her. My stepsister moved out of the house and in with family friends. I think that was a horrible thing to ask of a mother. My stepsister was damaged by it, I'm sure. And, my mother and her partner broke up a few years later.

Lovers, husbands, wives, they can come and go. Your children are yours forever. Perhaps there will be a chance for the two of you once he is not under her care? If the trust is not too broken? I wish the best for you.

If you think your wife is the first parent to be woken up at midnight by the police, think again. It doesnt mean you give up. I hope the next woman you find does not have children. NEWSFLASH -- you cant tell the future, you dont know how kids will turn out, you dont know when custody will change.

Best wishes. That is a hard decision to have to make. Some people will never understand what it is to deal with children like this, they only think they know what they would do, but in reality it is a lot harder than they think.

The thing is, I am a mother first and foremost. ANY other relationship has to take second fiddle to my child. Not that my child knows this, of course. But my husband knows that if push came to shove, it's the two of us who would be splitting, not my daughter. But, I would never let my child run amok like your partner did either. That was just wrong. And, for that you have my sympathy. But no parent can reasonably say that there is no chance their child will not be living with them at some point. It's illogical, and I am sorry you didn't realize that it was not a promise a parent could keep."

Exactly. Very well said.

If you think your wife is the first parent to be woken up at midnight by the police, think again. It doesnt mean you give up. I hope the next woman you find does not have children. NEWSFLASH -- you cant tell the future, you dont know how kids will turn out, you dont know when custody will change.
______

First, if anyone hasn't figured this out, she's not my "wife". We are a same sex couple. Secondly, she wasn't the one woken up by police. She was working. It was me. You don't say that you've ever had to put up with someone else's disrespectful 200 lb male oaf living in your house, eating your food and at the same time screaming obscenities at you when you're the one paying for that house. Have you ever lived like that? Have you ever lived with a kid glares at you from across the room; who dominates the entire environment in your house? Who has hijacked the control of your own home out from underneath you? I seriously doubt by your comments you have any freaking clue what its like to live like this.

Your comments come across as cavelier to a certain extent. I didn't just decide to shag and run upon his arrival like some others would have at first chance. I put offered up a major portion of my life to this kid for three years. I everything that my life experiences and education has to offer. Saying you wouldn't write off a 17YO is minimizing every effort that we; I put forth and all we've had to endure from this little sh!t@ss. Also, yes I realized custody changes and although I didn't like it, I agreed to do it, but it's proven a waste of time. He'll be 17 YO in November. No one is writing him off because he'll legally be an adult, and can live whereever the hell he wants if he doesn't want to live by another adults rules. When I was 17, I was living on my own. There comes a time when one has to learn to take responsibility for themselves and quit sucking the life out of others, including your own parents and ESPECIALLY when you're legally and adult and one who doesn't want to live by the rules of those who are actual PAYING MEMBERS of a household..

I don't care if you're a single sex partnership; my apologies for referring to your partner as your wife, I meant no disrespect.

I only have a daughter not a son, but other than that, the glaring cursing have happened from time to time. And I notice profanity in your writing. Cavalier -- no. I realize how difficult teens can be. If your partner is a nurse, she has had some post HS education. Setting limits and taking away priviledges is fine in my book, rewards have worked better.

I hear a lot of frustation. I don't hear quiet talk as to what mom proposes.

It sounds to me the adults in this situation are to blame and not the kid, but he's the one being blamed. I say that because it seems you are rather self-centered person, who martyred yourself over the kid moving in but for only as long as it took to compose your first complaint, and you have been complaining ever since. How can the kid be blamed when nothing is done - no counseling, no medication, no boot camp, no boarding school, nothing. You and your partner tolerated his behavior, while you complained the whole while. If he is on medication for behavior problems, then clearly he does not receive the proper dosage, or he doesn't take the meds. At any rate, doctors should have been consulted or facilities that are equipped and accustomed to handling youngsters like him. Often times, the patient is hospitalized for a time. You admit he has problems and keep complaining of his behavior. I don't get this. Your solution was and still is to get rid of him, not to get help for him. That's right, just throw him out the window so you can have your peace and your girlfriend back - your girlfriend who was supposed to place you and your relationship over her son.

Hypothetical as the mom is not here asking for advise but I do wonder what your answers would be to a plea from the mom. An almost 17 yr old going to be a freshman in HS, been in court, defies curfews, 6 school suspensions and 12 disciplinary actions etc this year. This is truly a really troubled boy, out of control, not just a teen with a chip on his shoulder and cursing. I also believe your children come first but continuing to live like this isn't helping him and probably causing problems in his sisters life too.

The first step is go to the local HS and ask to see his GC. Ask what the boy's options are. This should have happened a while back. Where I live there are programs for "undercredited" students. They can involve a combination of GED program and trade school. Listen to what GC says as to options. There may be other programs such as Jobcorp. If he doesnt get a diploma, someone has to talk to him re GED -- imho.

"You don't say that you've ever had to put up with someone else's disrespectful 200 lb male oaf living in your house, eating your food and at the same time screaming obscenities at you when you're the one paying for that house."

That actually sounds pretty typical, in the purest sense of the statement. Stepchildren (and children in general) live in a persons house, eat their food and yell at them. If the parents aren't very clear on what the game plan will be in raising the children, whether biological or not, there will be discord.

I understood that you were both women, and IMO, if you are buying a house together and supporting her child, that makes her your wife. Sorry if I misspoke.

The man-child is 16 now, correct? So three years ago he would have been 13? I was 13 in 7th grade. I assume he was too?

"He moved in with us unexpectedly when he was 13 in 2006 because he failed school twice living with his father."

"And, he's failed school. Again. This makes three times. His chance of graduating high school is gone. They will not keep him in 8th grade again. He's too old. They are simply "placing" him in 9th. He'll be 17 in November and in South Carolina considered an adult."

I don't get it. If he were in 7th grade when he came to you, and had failed twice already with dad, (I assume 7th?) then once with you, (I assume 8th?) what was he doing for the other two years?

"He's defiant as hell. He itches to start arguments with adults to no end. He's a little b@st#ge."

Welcome to the teenage years. That's not unusual at all. It may have been hard on him to have been with two women in his formative puberty years too.

"One of the things I've learned is that anyone with children who gets involved with another adult either with or without children better **trust** that person you've involved yourself with VERY well because that person should be the priority and the primary relationship and not the children"

Sounds to me like you pre-judged the situation and set everyone, including yourself, up for failure. You let him move in, against your better judgment, and now you're blaming him (not your ex-partner or yourself, the ADULTS) for what happened. I think the blame falls squarely on your shoulders.

I think if anything should be learned from this situation it's that you shouldn't get involved with anyone who has children.

It's awful, and I'm sorry you had to lose your girlfriend. But she's doing the right thing, IMO. A parent has a responsibility to society to make sure their kids leave the house the best they can be. She has a legal responsibility until November. Ethics, morals, humanity is a different story. But legally she is responsible.

Living in a cardboard box may be a good punishment. Hopefully he will not go that far, because you will end up paying for him anyway, through tax dollars. I think it's a far better investment to steer him or drag him to a better future than to give up and kick him to the curb. But you need to do what is best for you as an individual.

A parent needs to do what is best for their children, and if moving out from the love of her life is what is necessary to protect and provide for her offspring, I'd say she's being more of a WOMAN than you give her credit for. It's not just biology, it's what you do with the sum of your parts that makes you a true woman. Same as being a man, anyone with the junk in the trunk can claim to be male, but it takes a real man to be a father.

How can the kid be blamed when nothing is done - no counseling, no medication, no boot camp, no boarding school, nothing.
________

Excuse me???? I suppose this is what happens when one either doesn't bother to read or the comprehension level is medicre at best. To date, there have been:
YEARS OF COUNSELING--MONTHLY TEACHER MEETINGS, AN IEP IS IN PLACE since three years ago, ADDERALL IS BEING ADMINSTERED for the last SEVEN YEARS, no there hasn't been boot camp or boarding school, but to suggest nothing is being done and all I'm doing is complaining shows a complete lack of comprehension to what I wrote.

The man-child is 16 now, correct? So three years ago he would have been 13? I was 13 in 7th grade. I assume he was too?
_________

No. He moved in with us and was repeating 6th grade. He had to repeat 5th grade as well.

Sorry. So he repeated 5th grade with dad, then moved in with you and was in the middle of repeating 6th grade, graduated 7th grade and repeated 8th grade?

Trish, you will find someone who truly deserves your love and attention. I'm surprised you stayed that long. If my son ever showed up iwth the cops in the middle of the night, i would make sure he will NEVER forget the swift kick in his *ss he will get that night and then he will be out of the house within a few weeks if he didn't straighten up. I would rather save teh good daughter i have and accept that he's rotten and cannot be helped.

I agree with the sentiment Maria, but what would you do if the child is underage? That seems to be the issue. You can't legally do that.

I don't think you should stay if this child is unbearable. But you cannot expect his mother shipping him off, he is her son, and she stuck by him. you made the right choice to leave because you are not suitable for this situation. even the nicest kids can be very difficult at times. you don't want to deal wiht it, then you should leave but do not blame mohter for choosing him. she is the mother first. there are women out there who have no children, you can find one. because no matter who these children are and how old, it is always a lot of work.

Organic_maria-- THANK YOU!!

Silversword:
He repeated 5th and 6th grade. He moved in with us his second go round in 6th grade, past 7th grade, and this year in 8th has failed, but-- they are NOT going to make him repeat 8th grade. They are going to "place" him in 9th grade.

Trish-

I'm not gonna argue that the teenage "step son" seems to be a trouble maker. He obviously has some issues. Please keep that statement in mind as you rad the rest of my post.

Unfortunatly though I think you underestimated maternal instinct and the law. You asked your partner to make a choice she can't morally or legally make.
I really feel sorry for your situation.

I feel you went into it with kindof the wrong attitude as well. I think you expected you would be #1 and it just doesn't work that way. I love love love my husband to bits but if it came between him or my kid he'd be history. Not because I don't love him but my kid is my blood. That's just the way it tends to work with all couples. Makes no difference what your sexuality is. By the way, I hope you don't resent this child just because (I assume) your partner has been with men. Does it bother you that she has been with men? Just a possible angle I'm tossing out there.

I feel being motherly is a HUGE part of being a woman. Not just for me as a heterosexual but for many same sex couples as well. There is nothing more powerful and womanly than a woman breastfeeding her child. To give life and nurture it is something only women can do. I felt a little taken aback that you equated her being a mother to being less womanly. Made no sense to me. You can be strong and powerful and be a dedicated mother. In fact I feel they all go hand in hand.

I hope you find a person who is more suited to your ideal in the future. Remember this when you pick a future partner. Kids need to be an absolutely not for you. You have no tolerance. I actually feel if this kid would have been totally normal you would of still found fault. You had already decided you wanted ZERO involvment befor you ever met him.

Find a nice gal with no kids so you can focus on each other with out the chance of ever having to deal with her children. You'll be much happier.

If my son ever showed up iwth the cops in the middle of the night, i would make sure he will NEVER forget the swift kick in his *ss he will get that night and then he will be out of the house within a few weeks if he didn't straighten up. I would rather save teh good daughter i have and accept that he's rotten and cannot be helped.
________

This has been my point all along too. I'm horrified at the level of hideous behavior she's being subjected to by him and all the instability he's causing. I've argued with his mother over and over again that she shouldnt have to pay for his bad behavior by moving to another home and taking her bedroom, her home and her stability away.

She has a legal responsibility until November. Ethics, morals, humanity is a different story. But legally she is responsible.
_________

I know and in all actuality agree with this, but it certainly doesn't mean I have to like it. I still think he should be dealt with by his father where he's less likely to be able to pull this garbage.

Does it bother you that she has been with men? Just a possible angle I'm tossing out there
________
No. That had no bearing at all. Also, I knew how the boy was before he moved in because he'd visit every other weekend plus four weeks a year with us two years prior. So it's not the I pre-judged him, it's that I knew how it would be to live with him permanently.

OK. I just know for some straight couples it's hard to imagine their signifigants with another sexually so I imagined it could casue problems in all types of relationships.

The kid trully sounds like a pain. I don't know if I could tolerate it. I tolerate alot of dumb behavior from his EX because she is mentally ill and has all kinds of issues. I don't LIVE with her though. I imagine I would not be able to live with a person like my girls mother. I would have to get out as well.

Give yourself some healing time and get back out there. There is someone floating around that will be perfect for you. Cliched I know but it's true. Find a woman who can dedicate herelf to you.

Good Luck!

Trish - I totally admire your honesty in all of this. I think that it takes a lot for a woman to admit she doesn't want kids and doesn't want to take care of someone else's kids. If more women who didn't really want kids in the first place would just admit it and not let someone pressure them into it, we'd have less children in therapy and/or in foster care.

Take Ima's SD. It's plainly obvious to all that the BM doesn't want her kids. So much so that SD has been "dumped" off and has been in counseling. And the older one is living with GM.

Also, it is respectful that you have stayed as long as you have and tried to give things a chance. Especially when you knew it was a situation you didn't want to be involved in. It takes a lot of courage to be as gracious as you say you have been.

And no matter what people's personal opinions are of how you feel about this boy, living in a situation like that is not good for anyone in the house.

I know it's a sad thing to do.....I "cut my losses" from my SO about 1-1/2 years ago. I couldn't continue on the path we were going and truly be happy. It was so hard because he hadn't really done anything wrong. It was more of what he wasn't doing. After a few months, he really proved to me that he wanted to fix things. We're back together now and much healthier.

If he has an IEP, it sure doesn't seem to be working!
What's his classification? (Normally ADHD will only get you a 504)
And how agressively has Mom been following up to see that it's being implemented?

Frankly, I can see why a 200 pound 16 year old would NOT want to go to 8th grade.
How humiliating! And for him to be failing as well? Every day he goes to school has got to have been pure torture. Can you just imagine yourself in his shoes for a few minutes and picture what it would be like to be surrounded by a bunch of barely-pubescent kids who are sailing through the academics and looking at you like a FREAK?

Not to excuse his behavior, but I'm sorry --
He's not just failing school.
His school has been failing HIM.

Is there any chance at all that he will agree to stay in school and go through a high school vocational program?
It'll be SO much better than sitting in an undersized classroom with a bunch of little kids!
With an IEP, Federal law REQUIRES the schools to be doing life-planning with/for him at age 14 anyway.

Trish - I can't blame you for leaving. I just feel sorry for your partner and her son.

sweeby, sometimes ADHD is enough to qualify for OHI certification (or whatever other states may have)if it is severe enough. But this kid sounds like he could have ODD, possibly EI with combination of things. He is possibly depressed or suffers from mood disorder. Sounds way worse than just ADD.

Totally agree that at 16 he has nothing to do at a middle school. If he will be already 17 he actually has no business to be a freshman. I think he will drop out. Why did they retain him that many times. How bizzare.

He either needs to go to alternative ed or get GED. there is no way he will stay in school if he already is almost 17. Thi school district is crazy. and 12 disciplinary actions doesn't sound that shocking actually, I saw worse. ha

I know FD, in my Ds school, the minute a child is "undercredited", the school works with the child AND THE PARENTS for an alternative -- either catching up with summer school, GED plus a trade or something esle. . One of my Ds friends older brother did this, and he has a great job.

I know, we have all kind of academic credit recovery. Our state has new high school graduation requirements that are very high(but the results are not high at all, just requirements are haha) so schools are trying to do everything possible assisting failing students. BUT....this kid is 17 and he is not even in high school yet!!!!

I understand retaining once or maybe twice in extreme cases, but I have never heard of retaining a special ed. student that many times! How could parents allow it? How can school allow 17-year-old to be a freshman? Those students never graduate, they always drop out. I think both school system and parents mess this kid up big time.

I'll be honest and say that this is a situation I could never tolerate with my SO/Husband/Boyfriend whatever. To me, it would have never came down to the son coming to live with me...I would've been apprehensive at just getting involved with someone with a child that has problems as extensive as his. Furthermore, there is no way in heck I could sit by and watch this happen and just be happy that the child is not living in my household. I would want my partner to do everything in his power to help his child, living with him or not. To me, this is a huge character flaw I see when a parent doesn't try their hardest for their child, regardless if the child is living with him or not. And again, these are the type of parents IMO that cannot have a relationship, it isn't fair to their partner or ultimately to the child.

BUT, the step has an obligation as well to understand what they can or cannot handle. I have never understood when a stepparent claims that the child living with them wasn't planned! lol, that is what being a parent is about. And I suspect those types of stepparents have the hardest time, due to themselves and their attitude. It is just not realistic to think that a minor child will never live with the other parent or that the parent will choose the partner over the child. If the partner did, there are massive flaws I would see in that person and I personally could not respect them. But, again that's just me.

This kid sounds like a lot of trouble, and I can see how he would make life close to unbearable. But the simple matter is, he is still someone's kid. Just because he doesn't behave as he should doesn't change that. Part of being a parent is trying, and trying, and trying again to do the best you can for your kids.

This child obviously has severe issues. I can't image what his self esteem must be like, being the only kid in middle school old enough to drive. Add that to being pushed back and forth between his parents because they can't or won't deal with him and you have a recipe for disaster. It's reached the breaking point now because this wan't handled years ago, and now it may be past the point of no return.

Bottom line, if you can't deal with the kid you shouldn't deal with the parent. Their first priority is to be there for their child, not their new partner or spouse.

What exactly do some of you woman think is going to change with this kid in just a few months when he is considered an adult? The writing is on the wall and has been on the wall, and he is resistant to any type of therapy, medication, and help that is being offered. All his mother can do is kiss her relationship goodbye, and cow tow to her son till he is of age and is still walking all over her @ss, cuz she just can't send him packing to dad's house, cuz he is also too much of a pu*sy to deal with his own son also. Oh and lets not forget what jeopardy she is putting her daughter in too.
"Is it the parents fault"...not always, sometimes the kids have some real issues that never get discovered until adulthood and they have exhausted all avenues of people who will put up with their behaviors, and they are forced to figure out what the hell the problem is.
I always hear about how it is never the "kids" fault..blah blah blah....then they turn 18 and some of these kids do some horrible sh*t, and get in trouble with the law, and where is all your damn sympathy then? No what you hear then, is oh they got what they deserved for breaking the law...but what happened to all the opinions of it not being their fault...or do you blame Jeffery Dahmer's parents for his reign of terror as well? At what point do kids start to be responsible for the sh*t they do and say??? At 18? Magic number? They are magically given some key to adulthood then? What of these kids who don't listen to anything and terrorize everyone around them? Blame the parents who do what they can? When they are 18 and trying to live on their own, and have a job, no one will put up with their glaring eyes, shi*ty attitude, laziness and troublesome ways. They will either get their a@@ kicked on a regular basis by someone, they will be living on the streets, or they will be in jail, or all three.
Acting like no rules apply to you gets no one far real fast. Too bad this kids mom is putting up with such behavior and like so many here, calling it "teen behavior". There is nothing "regular" or normal about this kids behavior. If some of you think so then you have never had the pleasure of meeting a child like this and having to deal with them, so count yourselves lucky. Like I said, some people like to imagine and think that they know exactly what they would do and how they would act, but they have no freakin' clue, and that is so pitifully obvious.

Wild_thing-- thank you for acknowledging what some other's here are NOT. This is NOT garden variety teenage problems-- this kid is a terrorist. He is CHOOSING against all advice to the contrary, to do what he wants to do.

To the person who commented on his being humiliated at being 16 in the 8th grade; I would have thought the same exact thing, but the fact is that he isn't humiliated. His maturity level in some respects is right in line with kids at about 14 years of age. You put a dog in with cats and the dog will act like a cat. So it is in this instance. Also, the stats I gave regarding the suspensions has been since MARCH. He's been suspended 10 times the ENTIRE YEAR. In addition he's had 7 all day detentions; and numerous unexecused tardies. His behavior record includes 13 violations; anything from simple assault, the disrespect, to disobeying to innappropriate physical contact.

I honestly have to say that just because I'm a non parent and doubted my ability to put up with this for however long; I challenge ANY adult, parent or non to live with this. My dog literally starts shaking anytime a voice is raised and I know I've got PTSD. I am so angry at having had this happen to me and anyone who thinks this is simply just routine teenage stuff, has no CLUE.

What would i do if the child is underage??? I'LD KICK HIM OUT!. Its called boarding residence. Get him psych eval to see if he's all there and save the children under my roof who deserve a peaceful home.
I love my kids...but if one got out of line so bad that it affects the entire family, and he knowly at his age does it. He decides this...he's out!
There if mother love and then there is enabling....this woman who is nurse is enabling her son. You would think with all the thinks she sees in the hospital , she would take control and whip this kids butt! But no...she turns a blind eye and her own daughter is suffering for it?
Come on!!! the magic number 17...ooooooohhhhoooooo...like that is gonna make a difference? When is he going to change? when is mommy dear going to opne her eyes? when her son punches the daylights out of his own sister because she didn't do what he said???
Trish, you did the right thing to leave but i would call child services for the sake of your sd. Something to protect her if her mother is so stupid not to do anythign about this.
I'm soryr i'm calling your ex partner stupid but from my perspective this young man has been given plenty of time to change and shape up. He chooses to do this. He needs no counciling because it obviously doen' t help. He needs someone above him, to really scare his eyes open. He needs a life lesson.
You can by law kick out an underage child if there is proof of his instability, violence, and unstable environment he is causing for other kids and people who reside in that very home. My neighbour kicked out her own daughter when she was 14 years old. She smoked pot, got in trouble, sex you name it! she chose not to listen to counciling..got in trouble in school, suspended and yah the cops showed up numerous times...so for the sake of the other kids..and adopted as well...she booted her *ss out!
Another friend legally abandonned her daughter . Gave up rights. SHe was clinically classed as a psychopath adn placed in the douglas hospital. Both parents were beside themselves....they did nothign wrong..they weren't divorced. It was a happy family, until the daughter almost killed their baby son...three attempt....sorry...some people cannot be saved.

"and maybe one day you'll see that perhaps you should done more to remind me less that you're a mom and more that you're a woman."

Honestly Trish, this sentence sums up my issue with you, and what I focus on so much more than the kid's terroristic behavior. You went into the relationship not wanting him around and asking for promises that he wouldn't be around, and you leave resenting he is still around when you are not. What you lack is the understanding of what it feels like to be a mother, even to a 'bad apple'.

Were it me, I would have kicked you to the curb when you asked me to promise that my own flesh and blood would never live with me, regardless of their behavior. The mere fact she agreed to this shows a lack of strength and character, and I personally think that may have something to do with the boy she helped raise. It's her kid, not a dog. If the writing was on the wall then you should have made your exit and spared yourself the last 5 years. To hear you complain about it now leaves me without a lot of sympathy, sorry. You asked for the unimaginable. Go figure that it didn't work out.

Honestly Trish, this sentence sums up my issue with you, and what I focus on so much more than the kid's terroristic behavior. You went into the relationship not wanting him around and asking for promises that he wouldn't be around, and you leave resenting he is still around when you are not. What you lack is the understanding of what it feels like to be a mother, even to a 'bad apple'.
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Apparently this comment touched some people here. What I mean by this comment is not to diminish a person's role as mother, or any other role, but when that role dominates everything else at the expense of other roles in your life, then I think that's a problem. When 95% of our conversations for years now have centered around her children and nothing to do with just the two of us; then that's a problem. When romance and intimacy leave the relationship because everything in the home environment is stressed and exhausting, then that is a problem.

Our relationship has evolved into never ending conversations about ways to stratagize over ways to solve the problems we had with her son. We put these kids above each other, and everything else. My point is that if a woman doesn't learn that she must be able to separate motherhood from womanhood, this can end up being an endless source of frustration for your partner whether they are straight or gay, man or woman; it doesn't matter. This is what happened in my relationship and this lopsidedness was never good for the relationship and its certainly not good for anyone as an individual. If you think this is selfish then so be it-- kick me to curb, but I contend that you're not relationship material if the only role you purport for yourself is that of a 'mother' and you've forgotten what its like to an individual with individual needs.

"At what point do kids start to be responsible for the sh*t they do and say??? "

As soon as they can move around on their own two feet. You start at around age 2. That's the "no-no" and "be nice" stage. It continues from there. My dd is 7 and she knows that school is her job and I expect her to do well. She expects me to go to work and make money to provide for her, I expect her to behave in school and learn so that I am not called out of work, etc. She knows her responsibilities.

Trish, it was mentioned that the father should be the one caring for the son. I wonder about the background in this situation. If you've been with the mother for five years, he's been with you for three, and that leaves two years. That means he was 11 when you got together? What happened for those 11 years? How was his academic set-up prior? What was his mother's relationship with him? How long prior to five years ago did his parents divorce/split up? It sounds to me that he started failing his fifth year right around the time you two got together. (this is not blaming you)

I understand the separation you are trying to make re: woman/mother. I don't know if you remember the day/moment you realized your parents were not just large appendages of yours. I remember. For the longest time I did not realize my parents were "people" too. Children are by nature self-centered. Boys mature much later than girls.

I try to stress to my dd that I have feelings, hopes, needs as well as she does. I point out those needs pretty consistently. Last night it was "Mom, come play with me". I had made her dinner while she showered, then she ate while I cleaned up, then I ate (a grilled cheese, and pretty much standing up-one of those crazy get home late days) I had just finished, and I was ready for a shower. I asked her what we had just done. Well, she said, you drove me to activity, got home, made dinner, cleaned up... and I looked at her and said, yes, and I love doing things for you and with you, and now I need some "Mommy time". When I get out of the shower we can play. She understood, and we continued. Same with bedtime. She has a set bedtime so that "mommy can go to bed" at a certain time, and it's set up that way so that DH and I have time alone in the evenings.

My point is that I understand. A mother has to have "personal time" as well as "spouse/lover time" and has to balance those times with "mommy time". A mother wears many hats and it is really difficult (for me, anyway) to know where to draw the line between me as an individual woman, me as a love interest and me as a provider. Ideally they would merge, but more often than not it's robbing Peter to pay Paul. Every time I take "me time" is time I could spend with one or another of my loved ones. Every time I relax with my spouse as a lover is time I could be with my child, and v.v. This conflict is painful at times, and the mother is the monkey in the middle. It's nice to be popular but sometimes I feel everyone wants a piece of me.

On an airplane, the instructions are to place the mask on your face before helping your loved ones. If you have no oxygen, you will be of no help to others. I get the feeling that's what's going on right now. Your lover/wife/girlfriend/mate/partner has placed the mask on her son first and asphyxiated the relationship.

A mothers instinct. To save her child first.

There are all sorts of ways we could blame you and blame her and blame him and blame his father.

Where do you want to go from here? Do you foresee a future with this woman once her son is no longer in the house?

As soon as they can move around on their own two feet. You start at around age 2. That's the "no-no" and "be nice" stage. It continues from there. My dd is 7 and she knows that school is her job and I expect her to do well. She expects me to go to work and make money to provide for her, I expect her to behave in school and learn so that I am not called out of work, etc. She knows her responsibilities.

silverword, I was actually referring to the child being discussed and other kids like him. While most of us know that parenting children starts from birth, there are those that have not had children, or come into some children's lives much later when all the "early years" parenting and groundwork has already been done...or even are witness to the poor parenting right before their eyes.
The question was at what point do some people quit blaming the parent and make the kids responsible for their own behavior? If this is an ongoing process then what of those kids who don't get proper parenting...just always blame the parent? At some point a person is able to understand right from wrong.

Trish, it was mentioned that the father should be the one caring for the son. I wonder about the background in this situation. If you've been with the mother for five years, he's been with you for three, and that leaves two years. That means he was 11 when you got together? What happened for those 11 years? How was his academic set-up prior? What was his mother's relationship with him? How long prior to five years ago did his parents divorce/split up? It sounds to me that he started failing his fifth year right around the time you two got together. (this is not blaming you)

Yes. You nailed the timeframe. She and his father divorced when the boy was 2. When we met, it was revealed to me that he had just failed 5th grade and he was living with his father. He had moved in with him, at age 8 mid way through 3rd grade. From what I was told, though I wasn't in his life to witness to any of it, he had issues with school right from the very beginning and they only proceeded to get worse. In third grade he really began showing signs of defiant behavior; throwing books at his mother, knocking over a dresser, hitting her and running away. At that point she took him to see a doctor who diagnosed him with ADHD. The boy apparently begged her to go live with his father and given her frustration level of not being able to control him, she discussed it with the father, who at the time had just remarried and the new wife, who both thought couldn't get pregnant thought it was a grand idea to "have a son" come live with them. Now, they live in a rural area of South Carolina; mostly woods and not much to do. His behavior calmed down for about 6 months. Then, the wife got pregnant and at the same time, this boys behavior began to reveal itself at his father's, the same way it had at his mothers. Someone else here mentioned ODD. I think that's entirely possible too, though when I mentioned it to his mother, she reminded me that his behaviors had only been toward her at the time. Now these behaviors have "evolved" to include all adults, most of the time.

I understand the separation you are trying to make re: woman/mother.

Good, because that's all I meant by saying that I hope one day she'll realize that she should have done more to remind me less that she's a mom and more like a woman. I don't think that was too much to expect.

Children are by nature self-centered. Boys mature much later than girls.

I try to stress to my dd that I have feelings, hopes, needs as well as she does. I point out those needs pretty consistently. Last night it was "Mom, come play with me". I had made her dinner while she showered, then she ate while I cleaned up, then I ate (a grilled cheese, and pretty much standing up-one of those crazy get home late days) I had just finished, and I was ready for a shower. I asked her what we had just done. Well, she said, you drove me to activity, got home, made dinner, cleaned up... and I looked at her and said, yes, and I love doing things for you and with you, and now I need some "Mommy time". When I get out of the shower we can play. She understood, and we continued. Same with bedtime. She has a set bedtime so that "mommy can go to bed" at a certain time, and it's set up that way so that DH and I have time alone in the evenings.My point is that I understand. A mother has to have "personal time" as well as "spouse/lover time" and has to balance those times with "mommy time". A mother wears many hats and it is really difficult (for me, anyway) to know where to draw the line between me as an individual woman, me as a love interest and me as a provider. Ideally they would merge, but more often than not it's robbing Peter to pay Paul. Every time I take "me time" is time I could spend with one or another of my loved ones. Every time I relax with my spouse as a lover is time I could be with my child, and v.v. This conflict is painful at times, and the mother is the monkey in the middle. It's nice to be popular but sometimes I feel everyone wants a piece of me.

Our therapist kept trying to tell my partner from the beginning that our relationship needed "adult time" and that it was encumbent upon her to provide it. Her daughter was 8 when we met and she didn't do a whole lot to get a babysitter just so we could go out once a week. I should have known then that this was an issue but I tried to ignore it. My partner's personality is very introverted and isolated. She has no friends to speak of. I'm it. She does'nt like being around people and she has extreme body image issues. I don't understand it because she's a very attractive, very pretty woman. She looks like Julia Roberts with blond hair. She's gained weight since we met, but that's never bothered me and I've tried to tell her that it's not a big deal. It bothers her tremendously but rather than do something about it ( I bought her a gym membership) she doesn't do anything. It was revealed in therapy that she has Adult Attention Deficit, inattentive type. If any of you have this, it reveals itself in ways that are frustrating to normal adults. There's an inconsistency that is enormously overwhelming. There's no organization to people who have this and they tend to be incredibly forgetful. I remember when we met and she burned dinner a few times, and paid a bill to the wrong account, but I didn't really think twice about it. These people get really overwhelmed by things we don't. This is why her son runs circles around her and gets his way. Because she can't deal with it. When the police brought him home another time, he went to the refrigerator and rather than tell him to get his @ss to bed at 1AM, she told him what she cooked earlier; "I cooked porkchops earlier". I found that to be an absolutely absurd response to the situation, and she knew it; but she told me that she has placed a wall up to him so that what he does, doesn't effect her. She can't do the same with me, so when he acts out, I have a visceral response to it, and she can't put an emotional wall up to me and she's told me that she feels pulled between the two of us.

On an airplane, the instructions are to place the mask on your face before helping your loved ones. If you have no oxygen, you will be of no help to others. I get the feeling that's what's going on right now. Your lover/wife/girlfriend/mate/partner has placed the mask on her son first and asphyxiated the relationship.

This is a fantastic metaphor. I think we both asphysixated the relationship, but I kept telling her that she was neglecting it with her inconsistent attempts. We could never get the time we needed and all conversations evolved around children. She doesn't have any friends or hobbies nor does she do anything other than work so she really doesn't have a whole lot to talk about. She loves techno gadgets though. I like politics and discuss current events quite a bit. I also worked on and completed my Master's degree while we were together despite the escalating problems in order to try to shield myself from the behavior but eventually nothing could help this. So now I'm sitting here in a rather empty house.

Where do you want to go from here? Do you foresee a future with this woman once her son is no longer in the house?

She does, but I'm not sure. She told me over and over, that she wanted to save the relationship and the only thing she could do was to remove him from my house and that this was the last chance to save what we have. She simply disagreed about sending him back to his father except if he quit school; which I see coming.

I'm not sure if this will help or not. Sure, I'll finally get some peace and some perspective. The problem with this is that I'm not sure it will help. It may, but you know, we never got a chance to adjust to each other after we moved in here. The boy came a year later and that was entirely too soon IMO. I'm just not sure what other problems his behaviors overwhelmed to the point where we never got to deal with anything else. We've discussed moving back in once he's gone, but now, were both so overwhelmed at what just happened. It's an amicable separation though. We're not fighting and I didn't scrutenize what she took out of here as she's told me she does intend to come back once she's done with him and is keeping a lot of her things here. Our yard is a gardner's paradise. She rented a place with no yard so that she could take care of this one. We're very much trying to heal and doing alot of talking and she and I and her daughter went to dinner last night. I am just so relieved he's out of my house though. So relieved...

when is mommy dear going to opne her eyes? when her son punches the daylights out of his own sister because she didn't do what he said???
Trish, you did the right thing to leave but i would call child services for the sake of your sd. Something to protect her if her mother is so stupid not to do anythign about this.
I'm soryr i'm calling your ex partner stupid but from my perspective this young man has been given plenty of time to change and shape up. He chooses to do this. He needs no counciling because it obviously doen' t help. He needs someone above him, to really scare his eyes open. He needs a life lesson.

I wanted to address this. The one thing that I can say is that he hasn't hit his sister or either of us or any of our pets. This was a concern of ours and was addressed at the beginning with him given his size compared to the three of us girls... He was warned that if he ever laid a hand on any of us, that he would immediately be removed. No, if's ands or buts... There are boundaries he understands at this point he shouldn't attempt to cross, physical violence being one of them. Should that ever occur, I am convinced that she won't put up with it. Two things I know she'll not put up with. Violence and quitting school. She's very emphatic on both of these and has said over and over, if either occur, he's gone.
That was a fear of mine when he moved in though because he is verbally aggressive, but to this point he hasn't exhibited any physically aggressive behaviors.

"When do you stop blaming the parent and make the kid responsible for their own behavior?"

Well, you can blame the parent for the kid's inability/unwillingness to be responsible for their own behavior ;)

I don't know. It seems like there is a lack of responsibility for this child. He was struggling, the dad and SM made a new baby and he struggled more, went to live with mom after failing school (hmmmm, there are some school/emotional issues here) he got branded with ADD/ADHD type behavioral issues (of which I am not convinced exist as commonly as they are diagnosed). OP states that mom just built a wall so she wouldn't have to deal with it. It seems to me that the parents in this situation are very responsible for how this child turned out. The sad thing is that there probably isn't anything that can or will be done at this point. I can understand not wanting this child in the house. But I also can't comprehend wanting to be with a woman who neglected her child in that way. Not acknowledging a police officer bringing the child home except to offer pork chops is some serious denial. If she'll do it with her kid, she'll probably do it with her lover too.

I'm sorry Trish. I would look really hard at how much you want to be the rescuer/strong one in the relationship and how equal it really is. It seems she doesn't want to better herself, has self esteem issues, doesn't face reality and is unwilling to accept the responsibility for her child. Is she really the best person for you?

But who are any of us to judge what is best for someone else? There are a thousand and one little details that could never be possibly explained to someone who is not there in the relationship. I'm glad you aren't fighting and there is some stability for her daughter (you being there for her is probably very stabilizing). I hope she can get it together for her daughter's sake and does not avert her eyes when this one becomes a teenager.

He does need a wakeup call.. that's why his mother was told by the peer jury program director to call the police each and every time he defies curfew. That recommendation came last month. At the time, he was breaking into the house in the middle of the night and it was so unnerving to me as a woman sleeping alone that I began locking him out completely at night when his mother wasn't here. And before you ask, he's lost several house keys and I won't give him any others. The idea of house keys being lost outside of this house for anyone to use, is a very insecure feeling. So, when he defied curfew I began to lock him out at night as I wasn't going to stay awake to let him in. I thought I could live with locking him out but it was far too anxiety inducing. So far, in a month's time she's had to call twice and he's been picked up twice and brought home. Mind you, the other two weekend's he's been to his father's and doesn't pull this sh!t there. Each weekend he spends here, he pulls this crap. He's been warned that once he turns 17, he's going to jail or his mother can kick him out.

I agree to some extent Silversword. I don't like her responses and I feel that if she's not in denial, as she denies, she's *acting* like she is. But I was also told by our therapist that her way of dealing with this may not be my way, but it doesn't mean that it's the wrong way. We have completely different styles of dealing with situations. Now, of course this comment was before all this police crap started happening so I'm not sure the therapist would agree to what's been happening for the last three months. We'd been using this counselor for a few years and she left her practice back in February to begin working with a defense contractor who provides therapy services for Iraq war veterans. I'm now looking for someone else to help me deal with the aftermath of this and to help me put this back into perspective. I know my partner wants to get individual professional help with this as well. Her style with her daughter works well though and we do not have any conflict with each other where she is concerned. We both monitor her like a hawk. She's simply not a difficult child to deal with and she's now the same age as he was when he moved in with us. She doesn't at all exhibit the same defiance he did at 13.

Interesting, "He was warned that if he ever laid a hand on any of us, that he would immediately be removed. No, if's ands or buts... There are boundaries he understands at this point he shouldn't attempt to cross, physical violence being one of them." "The one thing that I can say is that he hasn't hit his sister or either of us or any of our pets". So if boundaries are forced he will listen and obey. To bad more boundaries were not put into effect earlier by his bio parents.

I'm not worried about the girl being defiant in the same way. I'm saying when she starts dragging home idiot boyfriends who steal from the house, etc. I hope her mother's response is not to offer them pork chops.