This is a hard one! I wouldn't want my dad marrying someone who seemed to be after his money at the expense of ignoring her own children. On the other hand your father has a right to be happy and if this makes him happy then who are you to stand in the way? From what it sounds like they are polar opposites, so maybe opposites do attract!

I know my dad is about the same age difference with my stepmom that your dad and his gf are. It was hard for me at first. But I think my dad is a lot like yours in the sense that my stepmom had nothing really going on in her life and two children. I think my dad liked the idea of being "needed" by her and the idea of being with someone so much younger (though my stepmom really does not look/seem anywhere near my age!

Maybe your dad is asking your opinion of her when he makes comments about "isn't she wonderful". But then again if you were to say you were not too fond of her it may put a wedge in between you and your father. It is hard to say without really knowing your dad. So good luck to you!!

What a tough situation. But there is a middle ground that you can take, between telling Dad what you really think, and agreeing that she is great. When he starts going on about how wonderful she is, have you tried responding with "I'm glad that she makes you happy"? Dad is obviously bright enough to figure out that you don't really like her, but would hopefully appreciate that you are also recognizing that he is an adult who can make his own decisions. You don't want him to be in a position where he has to "choose sides" but at the same time it's not really fair to him to let him go along thinking that everyone else thinks his girlfriend is spectacular when no one else does.

Why do so many people seem unable to realize that, no matter how nice, kind and loving their BF/GF is to them, it's always a really, really bad sign if they are rude/cold/ill-mannered to others around them? I learned years ago that a good test of someone's character was to see how they treated fast food workers and convenience store clerks. If someone is not polite, kind, courteous and/or civil to people from whom they have nothing to gain by being so, then their "kindness" is all a pretense.

"Why do so many people seem unable to realize that, no matter how nice, kind and loving their BF/GF is to them, it's always a really, really bad sign if they are rude/cold/ill-mannered to others around them?"

That is such an important observation Mattie! And SO TRUE!

So Love, is she observably nasty to 'the little people'?
Because mentioning Mattie's observation, then pointing out that you don't care for the way she treats others is the kind of objective, factual statement that finesses that 'middle ground'...

I agree with ""I'm glad that she makes you happy" statement. It is not putting her down in anyway and you are not lying.

--"My brother and I are always hatching ways to introduce him to someone else!!!!"--

I have a hunch Dad already knows somewhat your feeling whether you've honestly voiced them or not. After seven years I doubt your father is going to quite know where a new objection is coming from. Has she grown worse in her b*itchiness lately? Are there any signs that she may be being unfaithful to your father or obviously playing him for the fool to her own set of friends?

If there are no plans for marriage for at least 7 to 8 years out, I'd think your father has plenty of time to actually meet someone else that screams out maybe he needs to rethink the relationship he is in. Obviously he likes her. He knows she is not the smartest, the prettiest, the best mom, blah blah...he knows these things. Your father is a well educated man with many experiences under his belt. Obviously these things do not bother him or he would not be still with her after seven years.

Is she the same when your father is in the room as she is when he leaves it? Is she saying/doing nastiness only when she thinks your father is not aware? These are things I think you could politely and very carefully point out. Is she included in your father's social life other than in the family? Does his professional friends get along with her and accept her?

Maybe she fills a void in his life that others (his equals so to say) do not fill and therefore he accepts her faults. Surely he sees them. He knows she spends weekends with him. He knows she has denied her children her presence and the possible other stepfathers in their lives. He knows these things and I don't think he really needs you or your brother to point it out...it will hurt his feelings because it it not so much a judgement on the GF as it is him that will be pointed out.

On the other hand, why do you pretend to him that you think she's great too? If she really makes Dad happy and they are happy together, is what is important. If she is a two faced and really mean and nasty to you, you should be able to discuss this (all along) with your father.

Are you afraid that she will rob off his retirement? Not care for him if and when his health slides? If there are real concerns on this type of issues, you do owe it to your father to be honest. If it is only that you think he'd be happier dating and seeking his retirement years with someone else, it really is not a decision for you or your brother to make for him.

I'd love to toss back in my oldest daughter's husband. He's a jerk to put it mildly. But unfortunately I don't get a say in it. She does know how I feel about him, I've been very honest. I tolerate him when I have to, which is seldom. I'm disappointed as it's not the way she was raised, nor what she could have (and deserves in my opinion) but she loves him. Lord knows why. I find myself hoping one day she awakes up and moves on, but in the meantime I have to accept I don't get to make these decisions for her. Do stop pretending, but be extremely careful, honest and tactful.

I totally understand how you feel. I feel the same about my my SIL. But my opinion is that frankly it is not your business who he loves and who he dates and who he marries. At 62 your dad is capable of making his own decisions no matter what you think.

You don't have to like his GF, you don't have to pretend you like her but you should still be appropriate.

After over 20 years of my brother's marriage we still don't get it why? My brother is as educated and successful and good looking and interesting as they come, like your dad. My SIL has no career, no education, no job, no hobbies, no talents, no intelligence, no looks, bad housekeeper, not a very good mother, not mean all the time but certainly has been mean to us on many occasions, always jealous and possessive (jealous of me, and my parents I mean), she comes from alcoholic drugaddict family etc etc. I think by now my brother knows all that. It would never occur to us to let him know how we feel about his choice. I don't dislike her but certainly my brother deserved better.

But should we say something? Absolutely not unless we want to show disrespect to my brother.

So I suggest you keep it to yourself.

I also think it is inappropriate for you to introduce your father to women knowing that he is in a serious relationship. (Did I understand you correctly?) It is not respectful of him.

I was half-kidding FD!

I get what you are saying, but I also think the difference is that my dad and his GF are not married. I don't think me pretending I think she is "as great" as he does is the answer. Who knows. Maybe my dad really does think I adore her, and that is influencing him with her. I wouldn't want him to marry her thinking that my bro and I just love her.

I like the idea of saying "I'm glad she makes you happy.' My dad is smart enough to read between the lines (if he wants to) but it's also polite and wouldn't make him feel badly or like he has to choose.

Thanks for the opinions everyone. I will be more honest in that I will no longer say "yeah, she is just awesome, dad!" But I won't say how I truly feel, either--which is that I cannot stand her!

If he's good at reading between the lines, maybe have a generic conversation about how times have changed... how you are so glad you had him in your life when you were growing up and how important it is for kids to have involved parents~ how sad it is that today there seems to be so many kids being raised by grandparents or how mothers aren't what they used to be.. choosing men over their kids.

Maybe he will pick up that he has a part in the scenario by being in a relationship with someone that is choosing HIM over her kids....

I still think it is no one's business if he chooses a woman who is a poor mother or is dumb or mean. I wouldn't even have general conversation about it. he is 62, I see maybe giving some hints to 20-year-old who doesn't know what's important. at 62? If she engages in criminal activities then yes he should know, other than that i don't see how is this "general" conversation (passive-aggressive way of telling one's father that his GF is awful) is going to accomplish anything.

unless of course she is doing something illegal or hideous behind his back that he is not aware of, then maybe it is wise to let him know.

Not applying to this situation in particular, but if I had been contemplating marriage to someone who was actively disliked by most of my friends and family, that is something that I would definitely want to know. My circle is pretty understanding and accepting so if most of them had a strong distaste for someone, even over-riding their happiness for me, I'd have to seriously consider whether or not their points were valid. And I would hope that they would still be kind enough to have that awkward conversation with me regardless of my age - there's a reason for the saying "There's no fool like an old fool". (No offense meant to your Dad, LoveHadley - I was speaking in general terms.)

"My circle is pretty understanding and accepting so if most of them had a strong distaste for someone, even over-riding their happiness for me, I'd have to seriously consider whether or not their points were valid"

This is certainly true. My dad actually has this rule he calls the 2/3 rule! He has said on multiple occasions (to me, when talking about people I've dated, or people my friends are dating) that if 2/3 of your friends don't like the person you're with, you should pay attention to that.

one of my good friends recently married this guy that no one likes. We all think he's a user, a manipulator and that he will cheat on her. He seems like a player. I remember talking to my dad about it January when they got married and he shook his head and said "remember the two thirds rule!"

The same kind of applies here.

FD, I disagree that it doesn't matter. Ultimately, what has begun happening is that I am spending less time with my dad because of his girlfriend. We're not estranged or anything, but I certainly don't make plans with him the way I used to and he has lamented to me that he doesn't see my daughter--his only grandchild--enough. :( If he ever did marry his girlfriend, I hate to say it, but it would really strain things for me. Now--maybe my dad is okay with that--but I see it as a DISSERVICE for me to pretend I think she's so great.

I actually do NOt think my dad has a clue. About a year ago, I cautiously approached the topic and told him casually that I didn't think his girlfriend liked ME all that much. He was just flabbergasted and kept saying "she ADORES you, she thinks you're great."

HA. Maybe she pretends to him about me as much as I pretend to HIM about her.

My dad also told me many months ago how he didn't understand why my brother avoids my dad and his girlfriend when he's in town. When my bro visits, he stays with my dad, but if GF comes over, my brother hightails it to his bedroom or makes other plans. My dad was asking ME why that is, and I just shrugged, said I didn't know and he should ask him.

I didn't feel it was MY place to say my brother doesn't particularly like her.

Sigh. I am going with the not-quite-honest statment here: I'm glad you're happy, I'm glad she makes you happy etc.

I think it is wrong of me to pretend. When my dH and I first got engaged, my dad had many reservations and spoke to me of them--not as a FATHER but as an adult. He wanted my DH to take care of some custody/legal issues, etc. and suggested I consider not marrying him until that was addressed. Ultimqtely, I did listen to my dad and we waited a year before even planning our wedding.

It's kind of the same thing here. I would'nt go so far as to say "I don't like her" but I don't feel I should pretend anymore, and agree about how wonderful she is.

So if you were to poll your Dad's friends, do you think 2/3's would say she's wrong for him?

Love, I understand how you feel and don't mean that your feelings no matter, of course it matters. I just don't think you will accomplish much here by saying anything.

If she is mean to you behind dad's back, then he needs to know. But if it is general dislike or feel that she is inferior to your father, then I don't see the point.

If you do have specific example of her mistreating you (not you disliking her) then yes let your dad know, like she called you names, or spoke poorly of your family, or reveal nasty agenda of stealing dad's retirement, yes tell him.

Her not being a good match for him is not a good reason to tell him. I think after 7 years he got to know her and is OK with her. I don't believe he is that clueless after 7 years.

Well, it is just my opinion based on life experience. i am not saying your opinion is wrong, it is just I know it accomplishes nothing.

Of course if she truly is mean to you, do tell your father.

It is so hard to articulate how she is. No, she is not outwardly mean or rude or malicious. She is probably one of the fakest people I've ever met, at least to me.
You know how women have an uncanny way of showing their true colors in a more subtle manner? That's how she is.

I honestly liked her at first. It wasn't until about three years ago that we all went on a family vaca to MI. My dad had rented a house for them, her two kids, me and my DH, and our two kids. They were there for 10 days, us for 7. So we arrived. Two bedroom house with a loft area with two beds. She had put her two kids in the loft area--one in each bed. Obviously, she and my dad had taken the master bedroom.

That left 1 bedroom for the four of us--1 bdrm, 2 double beds. Ok, DH & I were not thrilled but what could we do? We didn't say a word or even let on that this was kind of close-quarters.

THEN we get into the bedroom--and discover that 3 of the 6 dresser drawers are filled with her son's clothes, leaving US with 3 drawers for FOUR people. For a week. Hmmmm.

I asked her--NICELY, I am not an idiot--if there was any way her son could put his clothes in the dresser in HIS room, and she said no, her daughter had too many clothes, and was using the whole dresser.

UMMMM, tough, lady! Kids can keep their clothes in a friggin' suitcase if they have to!

I was floored that she said no. And believe me, she was rude about it, too--well, not RUDE, but just put-out acting.

So THEN--at dinner--my dad asks us if we are settled in our room and he was apologetic about the sleeping arrangements and asked if we had enough space. HA. My DH spoke up and said "it's great, thanks, but if you guys have any extra drawer space, that would be great. "Tyler" is using some of our space in our room."

My dad's GF's eyes got all huge and she acted all innocent, like this was the first she had heard about any of this. His clothes were moved out of there that night; he ended up using some of the drawer space in the master.

Ok-that was my first inkling as to how she could be. I think right then and there she decided she didn't like me or my DH, either.

That whole trip--she was just very subtly rude to me and to DH; she would undermine us in front of our kids all the time. We'd tell them no snack before dinner; next thing we knew, she was whipping out chips and dip and offering our kids some, when it was CLEAR she had heard us say no. Stuff like that the whole time.

Ok, then I went to Florida with my daughter, GF, her daughter, and my dad not quite two yrs ago. My dad met us down there---flew from somewhere else--but we drove. She bickered with me the whole time--I'd ask if we could stop to go to the bathroom, she'd argue, say she wanted to keep driving, get all huffy, etc. It was THE most uncomfortable two days.

DH & I were on an extraordinarily tight budget at the time-this was at the height of court stuff with BM and we were literally shelling out thousands of dollars for court, GAL fees, attorney fees, etc. THAT was the reason my DH and SS didn't go on the trip-DH had to stay home and WORK. Anyway, my dad knew how tight money was, and so did his GF. I made the mistake of spilling details to her of what a tight budget we were going to be on for the trip, etc. Literally, I had about $300 to spend for the week, which seemed like plenty to me at the start.

Ok, so my dad is very generous and when we go on a vaca, he always pays; I don't know if that is spolied of me or not, but it's just how it is, and my dad would not DREAM of taking money from me. Sure, if there are extras--jet skiing or buying souvenirs--I pay for that kind of stuff, but for eating out, or hotel, etc. my dad always pays.

So my dad had rented a van for us to drive down in. GF tels me that "she" had filled it up before we left, and informs me that it's my turn to pay for gas when we next stop. I said sure. We drove halfway and had arranged to spend the night on the road---I was somewhat surprised when we got to the hotel, checked in and she tells me my half is $45. I was surprised b/c my dad had told me he had booked the room in advance and he had not said anything about me paying. So it was with some hesitation that Igave her the $45---we hadn't even gotten to FL and I'd just spent almost $100 already. UGH.

Well, GF and I arrive in Florida, and she wants to go to the grocery store to stock up. No problem. Again, ok, fine. My dad was flying in that evening and it made total sense for us to go to the store first.

So we decide to take two carts and get what we think our kids will eat, what we want, etc. Like--I do not eat cold deli meat or cheese, neither does my daughter; GF wanted to get tomatoes, mozarella, etc--again, stuff I do not eat nor does DD.

So we decided to get what we each needed and wanted.

Well--she gets all this expensive lunch meat (like $10/lb), specialty ground coffee, a beach float for the pool, sunblock etc.

I got basics---yogurts, cereal, baqels, peanut butter, some fruits, raw veggies etc. I bet my total would have been $40, if that. And I kid you not---we get up there and she says "let's split it." With her whole cart full of expensive stuff---and really, who buys sunblock at the GROCERY store?

The whole total was over $200. GRRRRR. But I am too passive/unassertive to say anything, so I forked over $100. I was TICKED OFF to no end and really upset b/c, like I said, I was on a super tight budget for the trip and I was down to about $100! The icing on the cake was when I see that SHE is using my dad's credit card!! I wanted to DECK her.

Then my dad arrives in town and a few days later it's really windy/chilly (not beach weather!) so GF asks me if DD and I want to go to the outlet mall while my dad is golfing. I hesitate, and say I just really don't have the extra money to be spending like that. GF assures me she is not going to spend much, or shop all afternoon---"just a few things."

Well, we get to a kids' clothing store and she tells her DD "let's have a spree, girl!" I will never forget her squeaky voice saying that. I kid you not--we were in the store for over an hour while her DD tried on this and that, and my DD and I just hung around waiting. UGHHHHHH. I bought my DD a couple shirts and GF bought $170 worth of clothes. So my DD is kind of disappointed, and I am friggin' irritated that I let myself get sucked into this. Then we leave and she says "how about we go get pedicures, girls?" And the girls go "yay!!!!" I about lost it! I just said---"I really DON'T have the money to spend on that!" And she gives me this look and is like "really? That's too bad."

UGHHHHH.

So the next day it all about blew up. We all (me, my dad, GF, and two girls) go out to eat and there was this little gift shop. And GF says "hey, let's go buy something in the gift shop."

I am embarrassed to admit---I started to cry. My dad whisked me away from the table and was super nice, as I was blubbering about how strapped DH & I were for cash, this court stuff was killing us, and I had come down on this trip with only a few hundred dollars to spend, and then I'd spent $50 on gas, and $45 for the hotel and another $100 at the grocery store....and how awful I'd felt when I couldn't buy my DD much at the outlet mall or take her to get a pedi, or even buy her a stupid t-shirt!" I just sobbed and sobbed.

my dad was shocked!!! He was like "but GF has my credit card! Why are you splitting things with her?!!! I know things are tight for you right now, I don't want you to be spending money on this stuff. I gave her my credit card so neither one of you would be spending money!"

So we go back to the table and he asks her what the deal is--in kind of an irritated way--- and she gets this innocent look again and is like "oh WOW, I didn't realize you gave me the card to use for both of us; that's not how my dad is, so I just didn't know that's what you intended. That is SO nice of you. My family is a little different so I am just not used to that." She apologized to me then.

But you just cannot tell me that it wasn't all intentional! I could just TELL. She enjoyed feeling superior to me, enjoyed seeing me uncomfortable, etc.

Anyway, I can tell--she does not like me any more than I like her. I think that trip about sealed it for both of us.

Anyway, ever since---it's just been uncomfortable.

IE--Father's Day, I asked my dad the week before what he wanted to do. I offered to have him over for dinner at our house--same thing we did last year. He suggested going out to dinner at his club, and I said great, if that was what he wanted to do. The prob is--we live pretty far apart (about 30-40 mins) so we do often meet at a middle point, rather than going to each other's houses. I specifically asked about his GF and he said she was going to be with her dad and her kids were going to be with their paternal grandparents.

Two days before, he calls me and says never mind, his GF wants to host a dinner at HER house. I was kind of taken off guard and felt kind of guilty/irritated. He is my dad and if anyone should host it, it should be ME. And I had orginially offered that! But whatever--he seemed happy about it, so I figured if her plans had changed and that's what he wanted to do, then fine. I called her and asked what I could bring--she said nothing, I insisted and she finally said a dessert would be good.

Ok, so we get out there--me, DH, our two kids, and it is my dad, GF, and HER two kids. And at the end of the meal, she gives him this big smooch and says "see, this was so much better and cheaper than eating out. You take these guys out to eat too much!" Heehee.

DH and I about choked! But see---she says all this stuff in this sickeningly sweet voice, and she makes it all about how great my dad is and I guess he likes that...

I was really hurt by that, though. It is true---often, when we see my dad, we meet at a restaurant in the middle, but it's not like it's ME calling all the time suggesting it. HE is almost always the one to suggest we go out for dinner! And if DH ever does try to pay, my dad shoes his hand away. That's just how he is! We meet him after church for breakfast every couple weeks and THAT is the one thing my dad will sometimes relent and let DH pay---I'd say we pay for that every few times.

But I don't see anything that odd about it...I know for certain my dad doesn't MIND at all. I just kind of see that (maybe I'm wrong?) as how parents are, if they have the means. For example---my mom's parents ALWAYS pick up the tab if we are all out to dinner or whatever---and my mom is 60 yrs old!

I don't know. I guess for some reason she thinks I am a spoiled brat, she doesn't like my DH, she is jealous of me...I don't know...

It's hard to explain, but I am sure I have rambled long enough.

It's sad because after that last awful trip--DH and I made the promise to each other we would no longer go on a vacation with my dad and GF. It is just too uncomfortable. It makes me sad---because it is always my dad who plans these things--I think he genuinely wants to get us all together, spend time with everyone.

But the last two experiences have not been good, and I don't want to do it again.

No wonder you don't like her! What a gold-digging *$*&. I agree, no one in their right mind would really think that Dad gave her the credit card to use for her and her daughter (who your father has made clear he is not raising), but not for his own daughter and granddaughter. It sounds like she's already viewing his money as hers.

That kind of behavior is so awful because it's sometimes hard to tell whether it's deliberate or not. I had a roommate who was like that; she'd "forget" to give me phone messages from dates, do the exact same "let's split the groceries" thing, "misunderstand" something I'd said, and when confronted, apologize and/or cry.

It is possible that your Dad is seeing the warning signs too, but is honestly not sure whether he's imagining things or not. He needs to know that you do not think she's fabulous - like before, you don't have to tell him that she's a nasty piece of work, but certainly don't agree that she's wonderful either.

I can see why you'd dislike and mistrust her...

But if she were writing to this board, I imagine her posts would sound like something in between Lamom's and Thurman's...

DH is kind and generous, but just won't say no to spoiled, over-entitled adult kids... Can you believe he's still shelling out cash? They always want him to take them out to dinner and they never pay -- always DH. She's even got Daddy paying for her family vacations! How can I get 'Daddy's Little Princess' to grow up?!

Please know that's NOT MY opinion -- probably just what she'd say. And also that I completely understand your Dad's position on paying for dinners and vacations -- My parents were the same way. (And when we offered to pay, they said something to the effect that they had more moneyl than they would ever spend, so they could spend it on us now or leave it to us in their wills, and spending it now gave them more pleasure. Hard to argue with that logic...)

Anyway -- She sounds dreadful, and I bet it wouldn't be too hard to arrange for her to expose herself if you were willing to stoop that low. A private detective? Or a setup 'handsome stranger' to chat her up in the bar where she works?

Or try the direct approach, and tell Dad you used to really like her, but the more you've gotten to know her, the more concerns you have about her true character. But be very prepared on that one, because you'll need objective facts and lots of 'em. And not Thurman-sized facts either ;-)

oh my, thanks for clarifications, what an obnoxious person she is! I am impressed you even go on vacations with her, it would be the last time for me, no more. But how sad! Sounds like you get along with your dad and it would hurt not being able to spend as much time together.

Yes, it is not unusual to take adult children out or on vacations and pay, that what plenty of dads do if they can afford it. My dad is retired and certainly can't afford as much as he used to, but he still insists on paying!

In any case it is not her business what your dad spends money on, he isn't married to her. If he wants to, he could buy you stuff everyday, they don't even live together, his finances aren't her business!

Even if she thought that card was only for her, what did she do with your money? paid with the card then pocketed your money? What???

She is using his credit card for shopping sprees? How is it even possible, they aren't married and don't live together. Don't they ask for ID in stores? Don't they see male name on the card? Or he made a card on her name??? Oh my.

I agree with mattie it is hard to prove that it is deliberate. i dated a guy who "forgot" his wallet every time we went out, and "forgot" all his credit cards when we when on vacation. But of course it was not deliberate, yeah right.

Are you sure they are getting married? Could it be he would just keep dating? And is there any chance he could go on vacation or out with your family once in awhile without GF? I don't even know her but want to smack her. LOL I see how you feel.

I don't know how to bring it to dad though without hurting him and spoiling relationship with him. Tough one...

--"DH is kind and generous, but just won't say no to spoiled, over-entitled adult kids... Can you believe he's still shelling out cash? They always want him to take them out to dinner and they never pay -- always DH. She's even got Daddy paying for her family vacations! How can I get 'Daddy's Little Princess' to grow up?!"--

LOL.

I'd first try to tactfully tell this poster that Sugar Daddy has plenty of money to spread around and she need not be so greedy... it his money and a live-in GF every weekend does not get a say in how her BF spends his money or treats his adult children when and if they are adult acting children. I'd point out that Daddy likes and wants to spend money on his children and as long as the adult children did not ask for the special vacations but were invited honored guest...this OP could choke on it.

There's a huge difference between an adult child sponging off their parent/s having to ask Daddy to pay their bills because they are dysfunctional hanger-ons and an adult child who has a parent that truly enjoys and desires the company of their adult child and who wishes to share his wealth, time and attention with said adult children.

I'd also inform this OP that in my world the first time Daddy gave her a credit card to freely use on herself and my adult children during my hostessed get-away and she instead hoarded the card, took advantage of my child and made her cry at the dinner table that she could find a new sugar daddy and not to let the door hit ya in...

Love is a well adjusted functioning adult with her own home, raising her own children, paying her own household bills who just happens to have a father who invites her and her family to dinners and get-aways at his expense.

I'd tell OP to get use to it or move on. I'd also tell this OP that I seriously hope her BF has a pre-nup drawn up to sign if he ever does decide to marry her.

My 2 cents.

sweeby has a point ...it could be that GF feels this way and maybe she complains to her mom or even posts somewhere on the Internet. It is fine.

BUT I don't think the issue is with how GF feels but rather how she acts on those feelings. It is OK privately vent with your own mom or sister that adult kids act entitled or always there on vacations, but it is not OK to be rude to your BF's kids because you think they are this or that.

She is rude, that's the issue.

I suspect she's a lot more than just rude...

And I'm in total agreement with JMT about a core difference between "Join us on vacation" and chronic "Daddy can you pay my rent / phone bill / car note?"

So where should 'the lines' be between:
- A - pretending you like her,
- B - staying completely silent on, dodging and evading,
- C - admitting you dislike her (and why) if asked,
- D - volunteering a negative opinion even if unasked, and
- E - taking an active role in 'dethroning' the GF (detective, background searches)

If she's 'just' rude and obnoxious, I'd be inclined to go with options B or C.
But since she's added manipulative and deceitful, I think it's fair to go to option D.
But if you have reason to believe she's mainly after his money and won't be kind and faithful to him for long, I think that's justification for option E.

I agree with sweeby's options and justifications for them. I would have gone with "C", being careful not to overdo the "why" part, until your last post. That's just... wow. How does she treat your brother? Same? So now she has both his kids avoiding spending time with him? And puts on the innocent puppy-dog "Who, ME?" eyes when busted in her antics? Sounds to me like a very good chance she is actively and intentionally trying to drive a wedge between him and his children. And succeeding. Slowly, but she's got time.

Is your dad able to hear criticism without being defensive? Does he trust your intentions and judgement? Basically, I'm asking if you think he would hear you out with an open mind. It won't do you any good to tell him how you feel if his reaction will be anger toward you. (My mother and grandmother didn't speak for several months a couple years ago because my grandmother voiced her opinion about my mom's long-term live-in boyfriend. This accomplished exactly nothing.) But if you think he will listen, I think you are certainly justified in telling. Maybe next time he mentions wanting to spend more time with you and your daughter, you could try to breach the subject of why you don't come around more?

what would background search or private detective find that could be used against her? just wondering...

I totally know she would say I am spoiled/entitled/whatever. I think she is jealous and resentful of that. I'm NOT, really, but my dad certainly does help out in many ways----he pays my DD's tution (HIS choice), and he invites us on vacations, etc.

But he doesn't pay my bills or support me/DH in any way! I am a married mother of two and DH and I do fine on our own. His "help" now is more extra stuff---occasionally, he will offer to pay for DD's swim team fees or baseball lesson for SS, but those are grandfatherly things, not anything that is spoiling me. IMO.

But I totally can see how GF would have issues with it. I am sure it was hard for her to watch me and my dad plan my big wedding. I won't even go into all that drama! LOL. I personally think it stuck a nerve with her b/c here she is seven years into her relationship with him, and marriage is just not on the table. It's my dad---she would get married tomorrow if he asked, no doubt. HE is the one who has made it clear he doesn't want to even live together while her kids are young.

Anyway, my dad gave me a beautiful wedding and I think--could tell--she was jealous in some aspect. She does not seem particularly close to HER own father, so maybe there is some of that going on, too.

I think I am inclined to just keep it between levels B & C. I am not going to pretend anymore how great I think she is but I don't want to just be obnixious about it and say I hate her. Really, if she makes my dad happy, I would NEVER want to take that away from him or tarnish that happiness. It would make me sad if he married her, but ultimately, it's his choice.

I do think that I can walk a fine line between pretending and shouting my disdain from the rooftop.

My brother lives in China! He works for the British gov't. and is only home a couple times a year---he is actually coming home tomorrow! When he does come for a visit, he stays for at least 10 days at a time, sometimes up to 3-4 weeks depending on his schedule.

My dad knows my brother acts odd around his GF but he thinks it's because bro is shy, NOT that he doesn't like her.

(((hugs)))

Not to divert, but your WBSM sounds like my SM. Same deal with the finances, same deal with the jealousy, same deal with buying like crazy and rubbing my face in it.

I was honest. That was 8 years ago, and again 6 years ago. My dad defended her. And we stopped talking for a few years, and had to rebuild our relationship slowly. We're just now back to our pre-SM relationship.

BECAUSE.... he finally saw her for who she really is. AND... because I shut up and sucked up and made "nice" for four years. Once I became extremely sweet and rolled over (but, at the same time, absolutely did not put myself in any situation in which I would be in her control) the tension went away, she was free to be herself, and WHAM. Dad got it straight in the face.

She still drives me crazy. But at least I know I'm not crazy, and Dad backs me up.

The vacation story really hit home with me. I had a hellish vacation with her while I was pregnant, and she didn't want to stop for bathroom breaks :) Um... lady... my bladder is as big as a peanut. Stop or it's all over!

I don't have advice, just what eventually happened in my life. But I do have empathy.

Oh your brother is so far away, it certainly isn't helpful in the situation.

I wonder how about you casually ask your dad if he plans on getting married, he might not even plan that.

Not to hijack but share the pain...When my brother was getting married, my dad told him (not in a subtle way) that he makes wrong decision, and my brother still got married and his relationship with our dad went down right there, it took awhile to rebuild it. I remember when my brother brought future SIL home the first time. My mother is the mildest nicest person ever, she said she wants to make coffee for everyone. She wasn't coming back from the kitchen for too long, I went there and she was crying (and not from happiness) and hitting her head on the wall. My mother never cries, the only other times she cried when DD went to college far away, and when grandparents died.....And my SIL is not even a bad person like this lady you described. It is devastating...

Be careful how you say it to your dad. Just be careful, you don't want to have difficulty with dad over this woman.

I think it is perfectly normal for parents/grandparents to pay for the "extras" for their kids/grandkids if they want to. And I could understand feelings of jealousy from someone whose parents didn't do those things - it would be understandable (if a bit petty) to think "My father didn't pay for anything for me and I survived doing it on my own, so Love will be fine going without too". BUT, it doesn't sound like this woman has been going without - it sounds like Love's Dad has been paying for extras for her since she was 26 or 27. More importantly, Dad has been paying for extras for her kids.

I don't see any logical way to justify in one's mind why it is acceptable for him to pay for kids that don't live with him, and whom he does not regard in a fatherly way, yet it is completely inappropriate for him to pay for his own daughter and granddaughter? Honestly I suspect that, in her mind, she has "earned" the right to have her kids paid for - and as soon as someone starts thinking that they are entitled to someone else's money because they are in a relationship with them, well, IMO they are a prostitute.

Love, you had said somewhere that your Dad's friends didn't like the GF either. Are you close enough with any of them that you could talk about this? If something is to be said might it be better coming from a peer than a child? Regardless, if Dad ever asked you to clarify your feelings or you and/or bro feel the need to sit him down for a chat, I'd start it off with asking that Dad not respond at that time, but rather think about what you've said and discuss later if he wants to. His initial reaction might well be defensiveness, which makes it more difficult for some people to backtrack from (as in, if he's already verbally defended her than he might have a harder time coming back in a week saying "You might have a point".)

I forgot about the whole bathroom stop thing! That is just ridiculous. I have a family member who used to do that when younger; we'd be driving and pass the "Rest stop 2 miles. Next stop 378 miles" sign. I'd ask if we could stop, and every single time they'd say "There's another stop in 378 miles - can you wait until then?" Um, I can read the sign too - if I could wait I would have waited! Do these people think that we just enjoy stopping for the bathroom for the fun of it or something?

"and as soon as someone starts thinking that they are entitled to someone else's money because they are in a relationship with them, well, IMO they are a prostitute."

so true...

Well, i complained that my SO's DD demands lavish gifts and extravagant vacations..But i complained not because of money, not my business, but because he is miserable about it, because he cannot afford it, plus does not want to spend every vacation with adult kids, but was afraid to say 'no". Every time he said "no", his DD threw a fit. So he complained to ME 24/7 and was upset over it. I was the one who was effected by all this, emotionally, not financially. So I complained here.

But I think it is different from love's. She does not demand anything, dad is not miserable and does not (hope not) complains to GF.

Something just occurred to me...Lovehadley, what if you try to ask GF in a subtle way what's the problem here...Would that be too much?

"I wonder how about you casually ask your dad if he plans on getting married, he might not even plan that."

Haha. This is actually funny. As far as their marriage plans....this is what I've heard from my dad:

"she would marry me tomorrow if I asked but I just do not want to do that at this point."

(ok, so I am beginning to think my dad gets his ego fed by being with her...part of the attraction is she "needs" him, etc.)

THIS is what I have heard directly from GF's mouth:

"We're going to move in together and get married once K (her DD, youngest child) graduates from highschool."

I got the impression that this was something they have discussed/planned for. I mean, I can see my dad's point---he just does not want to be raising kids again, and that is his perogative.

As far as GF not having "help," this is what is so crazy to me:

A.) She has her Bachelor's in Elementary Education! She could TEACH and have a "real" job with benefits, summers off, etc. She claims she makes more money bartending (and she may be right b/c she works a FRi night shift and says she averages about $400-500 just in that one night.) But still.

B.) She has lots of help---in different ways than I have--but help nonethless.

1.) Ever since her first child was born, she has rented a nice townhouse--not luxurious or extravagant but NICE--townhouse. It has 3 levels, 3 bedrooms (plus 1 more in basement, technically not considered a bdrm but it is used as one) 2 bathrooms, walk out basement,full deck, etc. I know the area and a normal rent for this place would probably be about $1200-1400/month. Well--her brother owns this townhome and she rents it for $650 a month! That's a pretty sweet deal IMO.

2.)Her ex-inlaws (her kids' paternal grandparents) have always leased a van for her---nothing fancy, just normal Dodge Caravans, etc but she has no car payment AND she gets a new car every 3 years.

3.) Her MOM moved in with her about three years ago to "help" with the kids (my take is that means babysit while she is working or with my dad.) I have heard from my dad that GF and her mom split the utilities. Otherwise, Mom lives for free b/c she does so much babysitting. Who do you think watches the kiddos when GF is out of town with my dad? Who watches the kids when she is bartending or waitressing? Who watches the kids when she is out to dinner, sleeping at my dad's for the weekend, etc? BINGO.

4.) THIS was a sore point for her for awhile, I believe. My DD goes to a private school and my dad pays for it. Well--not sure if I forgot this little gem, but on that same FL trip two years ago, GF and I were on the beach, getting some sun, and we started talking about schools. I kid you not--she actually said to me "have you ever thought about finding something cheaper but just as good?" I about died. I was so appalled/shocked and didn't know what to say, so I just blew it off/changed the subject. But talk about audacity! My DAD adores my DD's school--he is super involved, was the chairman of the golf tournament last year, helps with financial advising, etc. Anyway--my point is, this was straight up some issue of HERS. Anyway, at the time---I can see how maybe she felt upset b/c she had just pulled her kids from public and was struggling to pay a nominal tuition at HER kids' school--like $300/month or something for both kids. (My DD's school is about 15-16K a year. NOT bragging in the least, good heaven's, I certainly couldn't do that! BUT my point is, I can totally see how GF would feel incredibly jealous or even angry that there she is struggling to pay $300 a month and there I sit enjoying my DD's expensive paid for school. I DO feel a little bad for her.

SO--here is what happened. Apparently, my DAD encouraged her to go to her kids' paternal grandparents. They are well-off and it is THEIR son who is a deadbeat/loser who's been in and out of jail, bailed on his kids, and hasn't done squat to help out financially. My dad encourged GF to ask them if they would help pay for the school and I think he had a point. Certainly they would not be obligated but it was worth a shot---and really, it is not uncommon for grandparents to help with these things. So GF did go to them and they said YES. So they took over her kiddos' tuition about a year ago, which I know took a huge load off for her.

But that has probably been a sore point for HER with me. I guess.

And last but not least, we cannot forget how my DAD helps her. They go to Sam's Club every few weeks or so and I KNOW for 100% b/c I've heard her say it that my dad pays for everything she wants to get for HER house. Obviously, there was the whole credit card thing on the trip.

And trips...oh my...in the seven years they've been together...she has been (and this is just off the top of my head) to Hawaii, Paris, a Mediterranean cruise, an Alaskan cruise, on a private yacht in Jamaica, skiing in Colorado multiple times, to northern California multiple times, Arizona, a trip to New Hampshire and Massachusetts to see the foliage....oh where else...Florida multiple times...Michigan...NYC...pretty sure they went to Boston once or twice, I know they have visited friends of my dad in Connecticut once or twice...it goes on and on...oh yeah, they went to Budapest, too....I am SURE I'm forgetting many trips. MANY of these trips are work-incentive trips my dad "wins" and THOSE are seriously lap-of-luxury trips---Ritz Carltons, yachts with private chefs, ETC.

Now--this is kind of a "perk" of being with my dad. I'm not at all saying she isn't entitled to be going on these vacas with him---but WOW. It's pretty darn lucky and while it might not be "help," it is certainly stuff MOST people do not get to do.

So--I will give her the fact that she has worked hard in many ways to take care of her kids, but she certainly hasn't done it alone, nor is she this struggling, single hard-up mom. She hasn't had the easiest road but it's been pretty good...

Silver--thanks for sharing. I'm glad you and your dad have mended things but UGH. That is just too bad. :( Sad to hear how long things were strained.

ETA---FD, I have occasionally thought of asking GF (nicely) if there is any reason she might not like me/have I offended HER, how can we be closer, etc

I am afraid, though, that it would go south and then she'd twist things to my dad and make me look like I was the "bad guy," picking on her or being mean or whatever.

"Do these people think that we just enjoy stopping for the bathroom for the fun of it or something?"

I remember being on a road trip with another family when both their son and older DS were just potty training. DS says he has to go NOW! So we stop, he goes. Big praise. Five minutes later, DS says he has to go NOW! Huh? So we stop, he goes. Surprise, but still praise. Five minutes later, DS says he has to go NOW AGAIN! (WTF!?) All the adults confer. Other Dad doesn't want to stop. I figure he can't possibly need to go again. So we don't stop. He goes. Oooops...

Love - Does your Dad know GF asked you to look into less expensive schools?

I don't even know this woman and I can't stand her! So, if I have this right, she chose to have children to a deadbeat drug addict. Then, because it is so difficult to raise and support children on your own (who woulda thunk it?), her brother, the kids' grandparents, her mother, and your Dad, are all helping to either subsidize or to take care of her and said children. While they are doing this Ms. Poor Oppressed SingleMom (or POS for short) chooses to work a couple of hours a week and go gallivanting around the world rather than, oh, I don't know, work a few more hours to provide for her kids herself?!

I wonder how everyone taking care of her kids feels about all of this. Frankly I'd have a lot more respect for her if you felt that she was dating your father only because he was providing for her kids. No wonder you don't want to be around her; hanging out with women who have earned their living on their backs does not appeal to me either.

On the bright side, if Ms. POS feels that they are getting married when her youngest graduates, that will be eight years from now, and she will be 42. And that sweet innocent simpering little girl act does not tend to age well, at all.

LoveHadley, maybe you should tell your Dad that you don't want DD around the GF because you feel that she is a very bad role model; that you want DD to grow up to take care of herself and not expect her boyfriends to take care of her responsiblities? I'm kidding, of course - sort of.

"Love - Does your Dad know GF asked you to look into less expensive schools?"

Nope, I never said anything. I've been so tight-lipped about my true thoughts of GF. Mostly, it's just because my dad seems so happy with her, he just adores her and I hate the thought of hurting his feelings or worse, bursting that bubble.

UGH.

Mattie, too funny! It's such a ridiculous joke. The crazy thing is, my dad buys into it.

GF got pregnant with her first child at 21. I won't fault her for that--I myself had an "oops" at 21 and the result is my awesome now 8-year-old little girl! And I had a lot of help to graduate college and get myself in a good position.

But I totally agree GF would have a better road if she would quit the bartending/waitressing scene and get a permanent job with benefits. IMO she'd have to depend on her mom less for help babysitting---after all, the kiddos would be in school while she worked--and then she'd have summers off, benefits, etc.

But backing up---so she gets pregnant at 21 and does not get married. They have their little boy and then they break up.

Supposedly--and there is just no way I believe this--she met up with the dad "one time" at a party, and she was tipsy and had sex with him "one time" and got pg with their daughter.

Somehow I find this all very improbable. I'm betting they were VERY off and on, together, not together, having sex, not having sex....

But she's fed my dad this song and dance of "one innocent little mistake" and I think it's crap.

I don't buy it!

Anyway, the second time around, her family apparently pressured her into getting married. They pretty much said "you're having a second child with him, time to tie the knot!"

The marriage lasted less than a year and they got divorced.

I totally agree about the choosing to have kids with a deadbeat. First time around, ok, maybe you were naive, stupid, whatever? But the guy was a bad dad to their little boy, so then she goes and has another kid with him? WHY????

does she even realize that your dad pays for his GRANDCHILD's school which is a bit different from paying for GIRLFRIEND"S children's school? He has nothing to do with her kids while your kids are his family!

Now not to put private schools down but we have excellent public schools around here, most districts around where I live have like 99% college acceptance rate. Why does she need private school for her kids? especially if she can't afford it. I think she just wants to compete with you.

I've met a lot of single moms, some where the dads were decent, and some without. But I don't recall any of them going off having drunken unprotected sex at a party while they had a two or three year old at home!

I guess what gets me is I've known so many single mothers who worked their behinds off trying to take care of their kids - and most of the ones I know who did end up getting remarried while their kids were still young met their husbands at work or church. Why? Because they didn't have the time or the money to get all primped up and go out trolling for sugar daddies! They were home doing laundry at 2:00 AM after they worked all day, got their kids to bed, the housework done, some of the bills paid - all so they could get up in a couple of hours and do it over again. Why do decent men always seem to fall for the ridiculous sob stories of women who sit around waiting for someone to come and rescue them rather than the nice hard-working women who deserve a break?

You're less cynical than I am; I'd be wondering if the second kid even had the same father as the first one.

I just recalled that my DD's SM told me how lucky is DD that she does not have to worry about anything and can just be carefree because dad takes care of everything.

I almost fell of the chair.

DD was 20 at the time, full time in college, working many hours paying her cost of living, studying like crazy getting excellent grades, living on her own, being very frugal and humble etc

Yes dad paid her college tuition and helped otherwise but that's what parents do, her dad makes good living, and SM does not even work. Yet she had to tell me how easy DD got it. Unbelievable.

OMG Mattie, I thought you were serious. :)

I wouldn't *tell* dad anything... I think the experience with the drawers is the best way to handle anything in the future. Let Dad ask, then tell the truth :) My SM never worked and constantly enjoyed the perks of my dad's success but also was constantly saying that he shouldn't treat his employees so well... shouldn't pay them so much, etc. It was sickening.

But... here's what I realized. And this may sound a little weird or spoiled of me. But my dad has the right to spend his money any way he wants and if he wants to spend it on her it's his business. No sense in me getting indignant on his behalf. He's a big boy. If he's ok with my SM not cooking for him, not cleaning (yes, she has a maid, and no, she doesn't work) spending his money and b*tching at him all the time, well... you can't fix stupid.

It was so nice to be finally validated. To have my dad say he was sorry. Because my whole family thought I was just being a brat. Years later... they all realized. And then they wanted to talk about her to me. LOL. Not interested guys. You wouldn't back me up when she was quite literally sabotaging my life, and my relationship with my father. Now a few years after dad's entire force of siblings/their spouses/children have reached the breaking point where she is concerned he is coming around. It's sad it took so long.

Practice smiling. Your dad will catch on sooner or later, if he hasn't already. As one family friend said years ago... "she can't cook, she won't clean... she must be brilliant in bed".

LH, I do think you should tell your dad any factual items you have held back on. This is actually more important than giving your opinion. I commisserate with you. Its interesting that you are getting a lot more sympathy than my concerns for a similiar situation that my X took up with.

"Its interesting that you are getting a lot more sympathy than my concerns for a similiar situation that my X took up with."

Interesting observation -- And I'm not arguing with you.
I think it's probably that you've done such a great job advocating for your daughter KKNY, that she has nothing to worry about. Even if your Ex does end up marrying his gold-digging other woman, your daughter's financial interests have been safeguarded. Plus, your DD doesn't seem to have much interraction with WBSM. Furthermore, I don't get the impression that your Ex is as bamboozled and love-blind by his chippie as Love's Dad seems to be. Gazing into my crystal ball, I'll bet your Ex's chippie gets kicked to the curb (and replaced) once her looks start to go...

I think Love's getting more sympathy because she is the child. As an EX, we often get branded as (insert one here) jealous, petty, conniving, self-serving, etc. if we lay any concerns/claims to our ex-spouses finances/future.

It sounds like LH's dad isn't neglecting her, and she's a fully functioning adult. Compared to other situations (KKNY's, where DD is in first years of college; mine, where dad moved into new home with SM THE DAY AFTER I graduated high school and said I could "store some boxes there if I needed to"; LH isn't bad off ;)

Not that I don't have sympathy. It sounds like dad may be a little unaware, but he's not unconscious. I'd be completely upfront, non confrontational and very respectful while standing firmly on my side of the fence.

For me, that meant offering BEFORE SM was able to make demands. Buying her special foods before she arrived so that she looked like a complete moron when she said she needed XYZ and it was obvious I had above and beyond prepared for her visit. When she wanted to go clothes/window shopping, I drew her a map or offered to drive her and pick her up later. By anticipating her next move, and stepping ahead to lay down the red carpet she had no choice but to stumble. And dad was there to watch it all.

I guess what this would look like for you LH is something like this:

Go to grocery store to buy food with her. As you are walking in say "meet you back at the car in 20min?"

When you are out and she wants you to pay half say "oh, but all I have on me is my credit card, let's settle up later". Then, IN FRONT of your dad later say "Oh, SM, here's the $45 you wanted me to give you for my half of the groceries you bought".

The trick is doing it with a smile on your face :)

I missed the original period of KKNY's posting, but from reading them for almost a year now, I have no doubt that KKNY does not pretend. That snake of eye candy ever talks to Little KKNY the way Love has stated this GF talks to and treats her, I'm sure Papa KKNY will get a new one torn for him real fast.

KKNY is dealing with the TOW who ripped daughter's her childhood to shreads(and she clearly does and always has had her daughter's back) and Love is dealing as an adult to dad's GF who is not even a live-in. Love has to know it's okay to not pretend and that she's not a possible disposable kicking toy in her father's life that GF can just mistreat and Love will say nothing so not to upset Daddy.

Mr KKNY's TOW mistreats Little K, KKNY will come out kicking and is teaching her daughter to stand-up for herself...GF slaps Love around and Love gets 'oh, isn't she great' from her father.

How about ...'NO, Daddy, she is not great to me. While she might be great to you, she is nasty and belittling to me. While she makes you happy and I am glad if she does, she makes me feel as if my daughter and myself are an unwanted and unnecessary burden that she can spit on at will. I would appreciate it if you would discuss with GF that I deserve respect just as I have shown respect for her. I don't feel I should have to tolerate snide comments and ill treatment from her just so I don't hurt your feelings and can continue to spend time with you'.

Okay, so sweeten it up a bit, but there it is in a nutshell.

I wasn't trying to tell Love to pretend. I'm saying that Love should carefully choose when the best times to shed light on WBSM so that Dad's perception is not clouded.

The difference between KKNY and Love is that KKNY is the parent sticking up for her child (Mama Bear... we all have her in us!) and Love IS the child. Totally different dynamic.

In order to say she won't tolerate snide comments etc. she will have to prove somehow to Dad that she's not just misinterpreting the actions of *poor* WBSM who is so *misunderstood*. In my experience the only way to do that is to move a little quicker (once you realize the name of the game she is playing) and not do anything that could be misconstrued as being petty or vindictive or sulky/whiny/childish and have clear proof that is not TOLD to dad but SHOWN to dad.

Of course, in my situation dad had to see it time and time and time again with different people, and he kept excusing SM as being really *nice* but that people *for some reason* just didn't see that side of her. Finally enough people gave him such similar feedback: "dude, your wife's a beyotch" that he listened.

The last instance was him and her telling me what constituted a "good hostess" and listed the people who were, and who weren't. When my dad was talking to me alone later I said that it was kind of ironic that SM would be dissecting the hospitality of others when so many had negative experiences at her home. (we've come to the point where if I put things gently enough, pointing them out gently then stepping back, my dad will kind of discover/realize on his own)

He was shocked, and realized that people who weren't "nice" to SM.... well... she's not particularly that "nice" either. Hm... now what?

I suppose someday we'll be at a place that we can just talk about it without me fearing I will be misinterpreted. But, in my case too, this all started when I was 18. Love has enough years past 18 that she can approach it with a little more dignity than I did; first crying, telling dad she was mean to me, saying she did *little* things; looks, gestures... actions... that looked like they were nice but were really passive aggressive; next pointing it out right when it happened "see! THAT'S what I'm talking about"; next, removing myself from their life; next, bending over backwards to make her comfortable ie shut her up and then feeling horrible and crying after; finally, outmaneuvering her by being strong and kind and exposing her actions as she goes. Not pointing. Not talking. Letting her dig holes in front of me then stepping out of the way and watching her fall in. And then, the hardest part: not laughing, pointing, calling attention. Letting her call attention to herself.

I'm just sending out the warning. Being direct does not always work and can make things worse.

Yeah, KKNY, I can see your point of view and I don't blame you for thinking there is a double standard on the board in this aspect. I think it is because I am the DD and you are the ex; whether there is truth in your opinion of WBSM (and I totally believe you, I think we all agree the woman is a bia-tch), it just always seems suspicious when the ex complains about the new woman.

KWIM? If your DD were on here venting about her WBSM, I think she would get a similar response to me. JMO.

Silver, I totally agree that being too direct could backfire. It's tough because so much of how GF behaves IS passive-aggressive. That's why it took me so long to reach a conclsion about her; and it wasn't until we spent lengths of time together that I really started to see how she could be. But her actions, especially on a stand-alone basis, can be easily "misinterpreted." I've had enough of them now that my opinion is firm: she's a manipulative, jealous B****. BUT it's taken me years to draw that conclusion, and if I were to go to my dad with my issues, somehow I think he would believe I was misinterpreting her or reading too much into things.

Sigh.

LH, I think part of the problem is people, including you, have kept the gloves on, and not told your dad factual things. I think the answer is not to communicate judgements to him, but just facts.

I don't know...even facts. MY SIL said and did something to my mother that was uncalled for.

My mom always kept her gloves on and put up with it but this time when my brother asked why is mom not coming over, my mother said what happened. And guess what my brother answered: there is no way my wife said or did anything of the sort, you misunderstood. My mother kept quiet since then because there is no point.

So I wonder if lovehadley said something, dad's reaction would be: my GF is so sweet, and you misunderstand her.

But i agree with KK, keeping quiet is just not helpful either.

Love, that's why I'm saying don't keep your gloves on... and don't put your dukes up either. Just be on your toes for the right opportunities where there can be no mistaking her intent.

In the example FD gave... perhaps if Mom went over to the house after DIL said her uncalled for comment and in front of Son and DIL said: "you know DIL, when you said XYZ on the phone the other day I have to admit my feelings were hurt, but then I realized I must have misunderstood you. Can you please explain what you meant by that?"

And watch her try to step around it. Then graciously let it slide. And wait for the next time. People can usually "explain away" to a third party when confronted by words/actions. It's a lot harder for them to think that quickly in front of others. Of course, DIL will probably jump like a starving animal on the "out" that Mom gave (that she must have misunderstood) but she won't be able to use the whole "you know how your Mom is" routine on Son.

People like this are bottom feeders. Put the bait a little higher, let them rise to it and everyone will see their ugly faces.