Sounds like Grandma is still in denial about the severity of her daughter's addiction. My guess is she still clings to the hope that sweet pictures and letters from the girls will somehow make BM "wake up" and be the mom she should be to them.

But you and J are right to not feed into her denial. You guys are the ones raising these girls, and you would know better than anyone how sporadic involvement/contact from BM affects them.

I don't blame you AT ALL for wanting to shelter the girls. At this point in BM's life, she is NOT a healthy or good person for them to have contact with.

When she calls you from a treatment program that she has been in for AT LEAST 60 days, then you and J can start figuring out the best way for the girls to slowly rebuild a relationship with their mom. Frankly, I doubt that day will ever come...

You are doing the right thing for the girls and for your family as a whole.

"When she calls you from a treatment program that she has been in for AT LEAST 60 days, then you and J can start figuring out the best way for the girls to slowly rebuild a relationship with their mom."

This is exactly what we told BM. Nobody is hearing us though. BM wants her cake and wants to eat it too. She wants to be able to booze and drug and call the girls when she needs a pick me up. Apparently it doesn't matter that the affect is nrgative on them.

Another creepy thing is BM's mom keeps refering to Layla as her grandchild. That just creeps me out to no end. I am not her daughter. J is not her son. J is not married to her daughter ad Layla is not their child....why would she call Lay her Grand child. All the women in that family are just so weird!

Maybe you could send pictures that the girls drew without asking them to draw them specifically for her. Same with photos. Maybe you could make some copies, and send some out every once in a while.

I think it's my responsibility, as the CP, to send out regular correspondence regarding my dd to her father. Copies of report cards, school work, pictures, drawings, awards, etc. I email most of it - I figure he can print out what he likes, but I do send a manila envelope every month or three with a bunch of stuff she's created.

And, she does not know I do this. I believe your girls are one year younger than my daughter. The thing is, kids this age do not sit down daily (usually) to draw pictures specifically for anyone (unless that person is right there). My dd constantly writes me notes, but doesn't for her dad, grandmas etc... simply because they are not right there in her day to day life. On occasion I will have her draw something for someone specifically but it's rare.

My point is that my dd's father is involved long distance. He's a good father, a responsible father. They talk several times a week on the phone. And she's a year or so older. And she does not do what your BM's mother is asking your girls do. That's forced emotion, and that can be damaging to little psyches, as you and they have already experienced.

So, IMO, be the bigger person. Mail off some stuff every once in a while. I think your instincts are right, and your experience is telling... so don't tell the girls what's going on or make them create for her pleasure. Just pull some stuff out and ship it off. Tell G'ma that you're on top of it and you hope someday when her prodigy gets her $hit together that she is able to repair her relationship with her children. Until they are adults you and J, (aka the responsible adults in charge) are held accountable for their emotional stability and intend to monitor/maintain contact for that reason.

"So, IMO, be the bigger person. Mail off some stuff every once in a while"

No, no, no.

This is not about being the bigger person here. BM is not just some immature mother trying to cause disruption in Doodle and J's life.

She is a very sick individual who needs to be held accountable and not enabled any more. If Doodle and J send her pictures, and maintain even the smallest amount of communication, they are a) enabling BM and b) increasing the chances that BM will continue to attempt to contact her girls and cause upset for them.

IMO--communication needs to CEASE COMPLETELY. It is not doing BM any favors to send her ANYTHING at all. And every picture or letter BM gets just increases the chances that she will "pop in for a visit" or make a phone call to the girls or who knows what!

BM has a scary, violent BF who is on drugs; BM herself is on drugs. These are not people that should even be on the perimeters of these girls' lives.

BM's BEST chance at getting healthy and clean is to hit rock bottom. And that rock bottom is probably going to have to include losing her children completely for at least a time.

BM has created this situation herself and she has to live with the consequences of what she has created. And ultimately, SHE is the only one that can repair this situation.

Silver-

I thought about doing what you said. Lovehadleys response is the reason we decided against it. Actually, I asked J and he said basically what Love said. It will encourage her to keep up the minimal contact. Minimal is hurting the girls. Plus she'll show her cell mates her daughters pictures and tell them all how much she misses them and how awful we are for not letting her see them. Of course she'll forget to mention allthe details. She doesn't deserve that kind of gratification or anyones sympathy....even inmates.

We kept up the relationship for months by sending her pictures, school work, copies of report card...etc. BM just kept right on doing her thing. As long as she could get her cake she continued to eat it. The entire time it was causing the girls hurt and J and I stress. She could trick herself into thinking she was a good mother as long as she called once every few months.

Not only is the decision to cut ties keeping the girls steady but it is also basically giving BM an ultimatum....either get right or get lost. It isn't an easy decision and it took us a year and a half to reach it but we have tried all other methods. Nothing has worked.

We fear if we gave BM her "fix" she would continue doing her thing like she always has. The hope is this will jolt her into making a choice while at the same time protecting the girls. It's harsh but it is the last resort.

The girls shouldn't be answering the phone at this age. So it won't matter if she calls. Also dropping by could happen either way and is just as likely to happen if she feels completely shut out as it is if she is kept remotely in the loop.

BM is emotionally and psychologically damaged and has been since before J met her. He had two babies with this woman, knowing her history.

"Plus she'll show her cell mates her daughters pictures and tell them all how much she misses them and how awful we are for not letting her see them. Of course she'll forget to mention allthe details. She doesn't deserve that kind of gratification or anyones sympathy....even inmates."

That's presumptuous, don't you think? You're putting words in her mouth and then judging her for it. She'll probably say the same things with or without the drawings.

Drug addiction is an illness. She has mental issues, emotional issues, she is sick in the head and in the body. I am not recommending the girls have any contact. But I do think some drawings could be sent.

I don't think that pictures the girls draw or photos of them are helping bm. Maybe she needs the no contact to wake up and realize what she is missing. Maybe then she will hit rock bottom (though you would think she has been there already!).

It is not fair to put the girls on an emotional rollercoaster. And it is pointless for you and J to keep being the bigger people and trying to help bm. You have gone above and beyond. BM chose her life. Now she needs to deal with it!

It should be whats best for the girls not BioMom. However, I see it a little differently from personal experience. Kids have a hard time managing grief and especially grief that happens at a young age. Without actively being dealt with while it is happening, it will manifest later Doodle. Out of sight out of mind rarely works for young children, they will remember and will have acting out behaviors as they grow up and they may never know consciously why until they are late 20's adults.

Have you read that book Motherless Daughters?

So maybe there can be some "safe" times where the girls can express how they are feeling. As the adults, you and J can organize when this happens so there is less disruption in your home.

"Plus she'll show her cell mates her daughters pictures and tell them all how much she misses them and how awful we are for not letting her see them. Of course she'll forget to mention allthe details. She doesn't deserve that kind of gratification or anyones sympathy....even inmates."

No...it's not presumptuos. It's BM. It is totally her. That is her M.O. Her calling card. She uses peoples sympathy to make herself feel better and once she feels better she gets high instead of getting help. That has been her pattern for three years. Why would it change now?

"BM is emotionally and psychologically damaged and has been since before J met her. He had two babies with this woman, knowing her history."

I'm not to sure what this has to do with my post. So because he had babies with her she is our responsibility? Um no. Don't think so. The GIRLS are our responsibility not BM. He has no authority telling him he has to be suppoertive of his ex wife. We don't owe her anything at all leaglly or morally. Her condition is not our problem.

We have been down the road stressing ourselves out trying to help her for far too long. We are fucusing on OUR family now. She can either hop in line or get off the bus. We arn't making anymore special stops for her though that's for sure. I think the fact that he "He had two babies with this woman, knowing her history." makes not a damn bit a difference now that one of the two parents are with it.

The present is what the courts care about. Who is clean now. Who is stable now? Unfortunatly for her the answer to those questions is "not her". The person who currently has their act together is the one who calls the shots.

We arn't fostering any relationship with her at all till she gets the help everyone and their uncles has been telling her she needs. Keeping her happy isn't our job.

The courts are going to force supervised visits and possibly rehab. THEN she can see and talk to them. Till then she had might as well accept the fact that she has a choice to make. DRUGS vs. her KIDS. If she can't make that decision she so doesn't even deserve a tissue they wipe their nose with.

"It is not fair to put the girls on an emotional rollercoaster. And it is pointless for you and J to keep being the bigger people and trying to help bm. You have gone above and beyond. BM chose her life. Now she needs to deal with it!"

In a nut shell this is totally how we feel. She can do what she needs to do at anytime but she keeps choosing the opposite of what she needs to do.

We have bent over backwards enough. The ball is in her court now so we can walk away.

I think J and I could handle the grief better if there was a more deffinate end to the story. Niether of us know what to say. We are limited as to what we can say. We can't tell them the entire truth and they sense they arn't getting the whole story. It isn't like the woman is dead. If she were we could face the grief head on and help them get it out and start t recovery process. There would be some kindof normal structure to the grieving process.

With BM not being dead and just being in and out and up and down and better and worse....there is no beginning or end to the process. It just keeps restarting everytime they have contact. They grieve. They get sad, they get mad, they get scared...they go through all the normal steps and then they hit the OK point. Then the woman shows up again for 3 hours and we are all back to the drawing board.

It's so freaking hard to keep repeating the process over and over and over again. It's so dammaging to them and so stressful for us. The woman is just so selfish! We have told her the damage that she is causing but her own needs are just more important to her. She is so self-centered and her days are just 24 hour pity parties.

We can't let the girls grieve for the next 12 years you know what I mean. At what point do you say enough? It's so hard having to live in the situation and be the one making the decisions.

Just to re cap....BM has no earthly idea here we live now and we intend to keep it that way. I don't want her or her BF any where within a thousand yards of my house. I'll call the cops if she shows up. I don't want this crap any where NEAR Layla.

She doen't know what school the girls go to and she doesn't know the vehicle we drive. Everything has changed since she's been around last. If the calls start I'll change my number as well.

We weren't kidding when we told her the last time was herfinal warning. She can either get involved or go get lost. We arn't giving her anymore empty threats. This is serious. She is between a rock and a hard place and her only way out is to make that decision....Drugs or my Babies?

I get what you're saying Doodle and I know it has to be hard. I know there isn't an end yet and there may not be one for years, but it's still not going to stop the loss, the girls are going to need to grieve to be healthy. They will need some safe outlets where they can do it.

I can't recommend that book enough (it also goes over absent mothers that are still alive) and there are a few others on child grief, I'll have to wait till I get home to post the names but there are different strategies and ways of dealing with it with youngsters.

I know you can't let them grieve forever, I just think they need a safe spot to do it periodically. One thing I personally remember was not one person asked me how I felt and I always felt like I had to show a happy face to keep the peace. When in reality that did me more harm than having a safe place to grieve. If I didn't say anything, everyone could pretend nothing happened and that invalidated me. It's not like I needed it 24/7, but there was a definite need for me to be able to express my loss.

Maybe we could find a way to talk about it without them having to have contact with BM to do so. The resentment we feel towards BM grows everytime she gets them upset. I don't need to resent her anymore and she doesn't need to benefit from their grief anymore. It's really hard not to hate someone when they are making themselves feel better at the expense of making a child feel worse. It is infuriating!!!!

I would like any resources that you may know of. There has to be a childrens book on this subject. I know art and dramatic play are good ways to express feelings. We want to focus on THEM and THEIR feelings....not BM's actual situation.

When contact is made it's all about BM and I think it's very confusing because she ends out mixed messages. "I love and miss ya'll" and then POOF....shes's gone again. You know they have to be thinking "if you love and miss us then why arn't we with you?" When J has his next appointment he is going to look into counseling for them. I'm going to get that book you mentioned also and see what it says.

Counseling/play therapy is a fantastic idea.

The bottom line is, regardless of whether BM gets clean and gets involved or not, the girls are going to have all sorts of feelings and issues about this FOR LIFE. That is a given. The sooner they can start learning to process their emotions in healthy ways, the better.

"Counseling/play therapy is a fantastic idea.
The bottom line is, regardless of whether BM gets clean and gets involved or not, the girls are going to have all sorts of feelings and issues about this FOR LIFE. That is a given. The sooner they can start learning to process their emotions in healthy ways, the better."
That rings true.

Professional counsellors have the expertise to head off future trouble & to know what will be most helpful now, & maybe you should do it sooner rather than later;

That story about their drawings turning dark just breaks my heart.

If BM doesn't know how to contact you but her mother does you can bet she'll know soon enough.

You have no way of knowing if she will tell her sob story more or less depending on whether or not she receives pictures from you so the argument that you are not sending them for that reason is null.

The girls may be sunshine and smiles right now, and that's great, but likely Nivea is right and there is a lot more going on that will manifest later.

"You can not be a so so mother. Calling once a month does nothing but hurt the kids. Either get it together so you can be there for these kids or let them move on! For Christs sake, let them move on! They are happier not seeing her at all than seeing her once every three months. If she cared at all about them she would realize this."

While I agree with you in sentiment there have been studies that prove this theory wrong. Even homeless children are better off with their biological parents/having contact with those parents. These girls are biochemically connected to their mother. They will continue to need her, to subconsciously have issues surrounding their relationship.

I know you are a caring person Doodle, please don't think I'm coming down on you, but I have to say that I don't really think it's your place to decide the terms of their relationship with their mother. Even if it is not the ideal relationship, it is the one they have, the one they will have. This is the cross they will bear because their parents had them before they were ready to give up drugs and have a stable life.

The thing is, J made the bed, now you all have to sleep in it. I'm not saying he has to support her or he is responsible for her. But she is "your" problem. And she will continue to be, for as long as you are in this relationship and she and the children are living.

It happens everytime. The worst was when I walked in on N_____ bawling and found a note she had written that said "I Love you with all my heart. Please forgive me." She had a drawn a broken heart with the lightning zig zag going down it's middle.

I sat on the bed and cried with her and kept telling her that none of this was her fault. It is things like that that make any sympathy for BM impossible. I am too human to feel for her at this point. I am not Jesus nor do I pretend to be. I can not forgive her for scenarios like that one anymore. I'm all Jesused out.

"but I have to say that I don't really think it's your place to decide the terms of their relationship with their mother."

This woman is a DRUG ADDICT.

If I were a drug addict, and not doing ANYTHING to help myself and get better, I hope to God my parents would do everything in their power to keep my DD away from me.

I think Doodle and J have a responsibility to these girls to protect them from their mother. And to protect them, they have to have no communication with their mother UNTIL SHE IS OFF DRUGS.

This is not about punishing BM or getting revenge.

It's about a situation that is DANGEROUS for the girls and, really, for the whole family.

This is how you deal with drug addicts. You cannot enable in any way.

In protecting the girls from BM, Doodle and J are really doing the BEST THING for BM in the process.

all granny hs is my phone number. BM has that as well. If she starts blowing my phone up I'll change the number and this time I wont give it to granny.

"While I agree with you in sentiment there have been studies that prove this theory wrong. Even homeless children are better off with their biological parents/having contact with those parents. These girls are biochemically connected to their mother. They will continue to need her, to subconsciously have issues surrounding their relationship."

Kid who get beat will stay with their parents given the choice as well silver...However I hardly see how that is best for them. What a kid wants and what is safe for them is sometimes teo very different things. I don't doubt they will have issues but we can deal with them once and for all with out having wounds continually re-opened. How can they start recovery if the attacks never stop?

"I know you are a caring person Doodle, please don't think I'm coming down on you, but I have to say that I don't really think it's your place to decide the terms of their relationship with their mother. Even if it is not the ideal relationship, it is the one they have, the one they will have. This is the cross they will bear because their parents had them before they were ready to give up drugs and have a stable life."

Please stop attacking me and trying to be nice while you do it. The courts will decide what relationship they have with her. Right now she is dangerous and there is no way to force supervision so she won't see them at all. Despite what you say, we don't have to allow contact. We have been to the lawyers. We know what we can and can not do. SHE is the one who has decided what her relationship with her girls will be. The ball is bouncing in her court. BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE....meanwhile she's in the corner snorting an eight ball. Sorry if I lack sympathy.

J has given up his old habits and they have a stable life thanks to him....aside from their mother that is. Therefor mom is getting the ax till she can get it together. You keep trying to heap guilt on J and he is clean and doing his damndest. You act as if the kids should be damned for life because of J's past mistakes. That J shouldn't do the best he can to prevent further damage. I guess he should tell them "Sorry girls. I f*cked up and got your mom pregnant so now I have to allow you to go with her and her abusive boyfriend even though I know it's dangerous and you could get hurt or worse KILLED. So so sorry but since I haven't always been perfect it's not my call to make." I don't get your stand point at all on that. It's like your saying the girls stand no chance of a good life, It's all J's fault and he should just let whatever happens happen without doing any damage control. You seem to think J and I DESERVE to begoing through this because of J's past. Well, I think BM DESERVES to be going through this because of her very current ones. Stop rubbing J's nose in the sh*t silver. The only one who will be covered in crap when this is all said and done is BM because she is STILL screwing up. Keyword: STILL

We don't have to deal with her. That's my entire point. We can shoot her down whenever we feel like it. We can refuse to release the girls to her whenever we feel it's in their best interst. We can just simply not answer the phone and refuse to give her our address. We can put her on the do not pick up list at school. We can and we have and we will continue to do so till the court hearing.

I don't want her at my house and I don't have to allow her anywhere near it. I can call the cops and she will be asked to leave. The girls and my child's safety and mental state are priority here. J and my sanity come in at a close second. We can refuse contact untill the court date and that is what we plan on doing.

P.S. She will die long before the kids or our relationship does. She has a very weaak liver thanks to an STD and she refuses to stop using drugs and drinking. The Dr's have told her it will kill her. She has five good years if she cleans up.....less if she keeps partying. That's if she doesn't manage to successfully kill herself before then. I'm not worried about this going on much longer. Sad to say but there you go. I guess that will be all J's fault too. It'll be "our" problem.

"This is how you deal with drug addicts. You cannot enable in any way."

Jesus! Thank you LOVE. We have BEEN down the road of trying to help her for years and finally said to hell with it. As long as she can get her way and still party she is going to.

This is the only angle we had not tried yet. It is her final chance before we eat her @$$ alive in court. What kills me is how apparently the girls don't deserve the benefit of having a stable parent since BM isn't clean also. Apparently J is suppose to let BM's unstableness slide since he hasn't always been perfect.

Doodle, you are misunderstanding me. I do not think you should live a terrible life because of choices your husband made in the past. I'm saying that you should accept that there will be repercussions for that past and come at it with understanding rather than the immense anger you are showing. This cannot be good for the girls either. I am not trying to heap guilt on J. We are individually responsible for our own actions. He got clean. She didn't. She is still their mother and that relationship should be fostered as much as possible to the extent that the girls are still safe. I understand you are angry. I would be angry too. You say she only has five years to live. I think that sending her pictures that the girls drew is the humane thing to do. The woman is sick. Potentially dying. Yes, she's a drug addict. Yes, she has put the girls in danger. But you have said you will protect them and J will protect them and there is court proceedings to that effect. This doesn't mean that I think, as you said, that the girls should be allowed to go off with her and her boyfriend. That's you completely putting words in my mouth and then getting worked up about your own statement. I don't understand why you would not mail off some pictures to her. It's no skin off your teeth. It's you punishing her. "We can shoot her down whenever we feel like it."

Sorry Silver, but I disagree with this:
"I don't understand why you would not mail off some pictures to her. It's no skin off your teeth. It's you punishing her. "We can shoot her down whenever we feel like it."

With BM being a drug-addicted train wreck who won't leave her abusive boyfriend, instigating any contact could well be skin off Doodle, J's and the girls' collective teeth.
They have opened door after door after door for this woman, and she slams every one of them. IMO, opening more doors isn't going to help her or their family.

So, the only tactic they have left is to shut all the doors, and hope she changes her life. I'm not holding my breath that she'll smarten up.

And, IMO, Doodle has every right to vent about the b17ch who continually makes the little girls she loves cry. Doodle's had an awfully big heart through all this, and she's hit a breaking point. So, yup, if she wants to shoot down BM in this case, I think she can go right ahead. If BM was trying to get her act together and Doodle was still shooting her down, then that wouldn't be OK, IMO.

Thanks for teh kind words and understanding that I do have a breaking point.

I assure everyone on this message board that if BM honest to god started making a real effort to get better, if her priorities finally got straight, if she woke up and one morning and said I'm putting my girls first, then you are dang rootin tootin we would do all we could do to support that decision.

We would love so much for her to be able to be active in their lives. We ewould love so much to have the HELP! We are alone with three kids. Having a stable loving BM to help out would be great. The girls would be ecstatic and all would bberight with the world.

We have held out so much hope ofr this but like you said.....I'm not holding my breath any more. Hope has turned to hurt and the hurt has turned to anger and if we don't draw the line it's going to morph into straight up hate. Contact is hurting the girls and it's breeding contempt. It was time to shut the door.

She is the only one who can change her situation now. Sometimes you have to pick the lesser of two evils and that is what J and I did.

It's ok Ceph. I understand that my opinion is not shared. I know that unless I were a spider on the wall for the entire thing it would be next to impossible to understand.

I agree that Doodle can vent, but this is a public board, and I don't agree with everything she is doing. I know that some of it may be in anger. But she's putting words in my mouth and reacting very hotly to her own statements.

For instance, when I said that the bed was made by J and now they have to live in it I was not implying they "deserve it" or that they should "let everything happen without any damage control". I'm simply saying that there was foreknowledge. Have you ever read the fable about the frog and the scorpion?

The Scorpion and The Frog

BM's nature is to self-destruct. Getting the girls out of the path of destruction is responsible. They are good parents for protecting the children. But I don't agree that their mother should be cut off from their lives completely...insofar as they are not impacted by her actions. This is why I am not advocating her seeing them, talking to them etc. but I do think it would be a very kind gesture to send her envelopes of their work every once in a while. It's just my opinion and it's not worth the invisible ink I'm writing it with because people will do what they want. I just can't get behind bashing a woman who has had mental issues for over 15 years. I understand that Doodle is angry, furious even. I don't fault her those emotions. If I were in her shoes I'd probably be flinging mud all over the place. But from my position over here, objectively, I think sending things out is not a bad idea. Perhaps it will serve as a reminder, and that will help her pull herself out. NO CONTACT. I agree fully with that. But I don't see how sending drawings would incite her to seek them out more than no reminders whatsoever.

Doodle - you are doing the right thing and you don't have to defend yourself to anyone.

Step-parenting and Co-parenting does not work like a bank. You don't go making deposits in the Bank of Niceness expecting to be able to make a withdrawl. I've learned this concept in the past few years.

Plain and simple....some people are users and opportunists. And I'm not talking about drugs. My X is a total user. I could tell you so many stories of little petty things he's done over the years whereas I have never nickel-and-dimed him for a thing.

Your SD's BM sounds like she us a user and you will never get your deposits back. So don't make any more deposits.

Ashley-

She is a total user in every since of the word. She has costed people their marriages,jobs,ruined peoples credit...etc. Many good folks have reached out to her. SHe pulls the "poor me" card and sucks people in and then she sucks them dry emotionally and financially.

We are kindof looking at it like you said....we are tired of making deposit soley to her benefit. We are not her personal candy striper squad. It isn't the girls nor J and I's responsibility to brighten her day. Frankly she is reaping the fruit of her ways. These are her consequences that she is dealing with. Our consequences are that we are now raising the girls. We are FINE with those consequences.

As far as suffering anymore BS from BM or feeling like we have to handle her with kid gloves...ain't gonna happen. We don't have to and subsequently any accomadating we have done prior we have done out of the goodness of our hearts and hope for the girls sake.

Basically we are finished wasting any energy, no matter how small, in accomadating BM as long as she chooses to continue down the path she is on. There will simply have to be changes made for us to expose ourselves and our children (all THREE of them) to her in any way. Even via mail. The gauntlet has been dropped....
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Also I would like to say to this statement made by Silver:

"I'm simply saying that there was foreknowledge."

Foreknowledge means squat. Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20. What matters is the present. The Present is the ONLY thing you can control. By bringing up the past you are doing nothing but trying to deflect BM's faults and focus the heat on J's past.

I think some people are under the delusion that contact with their children is their RIGHT. It isn't. The children are not belongings, they are people with rights as well. Once the child is endangered your rights as a parent are history...DCF takes away parent rights all day long. I feel that some women may question their roles whenever a woman like BM pops up. It scares them, throws off the natural balance of things because the father is calling the shots instead of the mom. We have a hard time coming to grips that moms are not perfect and sometimes, despite what we are conditioned to believe, being with the MOTHER is not what is best for the children. It's easier to try and put the blame or at least most of it on the male.

I understand you feel sorry for poor BM. That is the mistake alot of us has made. That is exactly how she drags people down. You have never even met the woman and you are falling under the same spell everyone else has who has ever tried to help her. She drug them all down to the point that they had to cut her off just like us. She uses the fact that she is "mentally ill" and a mother to garner sympathy and then she takes advantage. She's a charmer....a snake.

If we did what she asked and sent pictures and drawings she will have found a crack in the wall. Once she finds a crack she keeps picking at it to see how big she can make the hole. Then she'll start wanting to come see them, then she'll start wanting to take them places, then she'll sneak the BF back around them the entire time being as screwed up as she ever was. She would just keep pushing the envelope to see how far she could go. Been there done that a hundred times with this woman. You have to block her off to stop the insanity. There is no grey...it HAS to be black and white or she's steady looking for a way around the rules instead facing her issues head on.

By sending pictures we will have gone back on what we told her would be the consequence if she messed up again. This is what she counts on. That the rules will get bent for her. The warning came before she ran off and abandoned the girls at Easter and wound up getting arrested the SECOND time that month. She could have been Easter Egg hunting with her children that she loves and misses so dearly. Instead she ran back to BF WITHOUT telling us or saying good bye to the girls and totally STOOD THE GIRLS UP all so she could get high and get arrested again.

I am very sorry if you feel I or J are being cold. Niether of us are heartless people. We have simply retreated into our cerebreal cortexes and are now in fight or flight mode. We are protecting ourselves and our family. It is a survival tactic. We do not want to wind up at the bottom of the ocean with all the other people she sunk like the Titanic.

Doodle, here is a link with a list of books that deal with grief in children. There are some books you can get that are specifically for you to read with children. It's a little tricky because Mom isn't dead, but it is still a loss and it will help them to talk about this with you and J. I also think that getting the girls to open up and talk about their loss with you and J will help if/when Biomom crops up into their lives. They will have skills to cope and won't just crash and burn every time she calls or they see her.

The thing is, and it's along the lines of what Silver was saying, they may want to see her even when she is damaged. The woman may not have much time left and when they are grown they will probably want to know a lot about her, which is natural. If they are given tools now to manage their grief and loss, they might be able to handle phone calls and letters to/from her. I'm not saying give the woman access to THEM, but rather the other way around. It is not for HER and to help/not help her. It's whats best for the girls. And trust me Doodle, personal experience here, the child will want to know all about their bio parent and rather see for themselves than hear from family members how they were. It is what it is now, she is a drug addict, may not have long to live. She is their mother and no, SHE doesn't deserve you and J doing anything for her, but the girls need more. Get what I mean?

Here is a link that might be useful: Grief in Children

"By bringing up the past you are doing nothing but trying to deflect BM's faults and focus the heat on J's past."

Doodle, that is NOT what I am trying to do. Once again you have misunderstood, perhaps I have not been clear enough. J's past is BM's past. They are not separate. They had an unspoken, or spoken? agreement that doing drugs was ok. They had kids, and it was ok. Then J got clean and all of a sudden it's not ok. Well, it never really was. She's taking longer, and she's gone further than he did. Her behavior is not excusable. It should not be tolerated. J deserves credit for taking control of his life and becoming a stable parent. The children deserve a stable home. You both are doing great by providing that for her. But your vitriol can be damaging too. Children are not stupid. They will know something is going on, and they may question deep inside why their loving Doodle "hates" their mom. What is going on can create a lot of conflicting emotions for a child.

"I understand you feel sorry for poor BM."

Nope. I don't feel sorry for her. But I have a hard time garnering any sympathy for J either. The ones I feel sorry for are the girls. When I say I can't get behind bashing her, that's what I mean. I don't think bashing her is the answer. It doesn't mean I think she's in the right (I don't) or that she should see the children (I don't) or that you are doing the wrong thing (I don't).

What I do think is that she has an illness, she is dying, and whatever you can do to facilitate the relationship between her and her children will better serve the children in the long run. I see sending pictures as a good way to keep the connection open without direct contact. You are angry. You have a right to be angry. I would be angry too.

I could be way off base. It's totally possible. But given the information you've shared, I stand by my opinion that sending pictures that they've drawn and school work that they've done is no more opening the door than giving Grandma your phone number and having her relay things back and forth. If you were really cutting off, you would not be speaking to anyone who is supportive of her actions.

In your OP you state that "I guess we are going to have to break it down for Grandma that her daughter does nothing but cause chaos when there is any kindof contact. We would rather just go on like she doesn't exist."

Why, oh why, hasn't this been explained before? Seems like that would be something you would say the first time so everyone knows exactly what your position is and why. You say you "would rather just go on like she doesn't exist.". I don't think that's healthy for the girls. They will need good stories about their mom, good things that they can hold onto because she DOES EXIST. And she is THEIR MOTHER. Deserving or not. Give the girls whatever you can in terms of good things about their mom. Ask her mom for stories about when she was little. Good things. They will be curious. Even if you don't tell them, write those things down. Someday they will want to know.

I have to agree, rightly or wrongly the kids will end up with a romanticised version of their mother in their heads and it could end up YOU being the 'bad guy' and keeping them from her - this would be their perception and you don't have to explain how it really is, I get it.

The kids probably won't. Again on the perception thing, it could be *perceived* that you cutting off contact is cruel to the bm and/or the girls. To an outsider it could be seen that way, which is why maybe it'd be a good idea to talk to some sort of youth counsellor as to how it would go down with the kids.

In the meantime it sounds as if you haven't put bm on the 'not to collect/not to contact' at school, under the circumstances, shouldn't you?

Well the cats out of teh bag. Grandma ran her mouth around the girls and now they know she's in jail. Theres nothing to romanticize anymore....they know. They were asking all kinds of questions which, of course, we had to answer, Thanks grandma. Grandma also allowed them to talk to BM on the phone and told the girls to "not tell daddy" which of course is the very first thing they did. The girls won't be going over there anymore.

AFter hearing the fact they were pissed at BM. I guess it's all making sense to them why they can't be around her now. They asked if Mom was bad and we had to tell them that she is doing bad things and hanging around bad people. J broke it completely down for them. They know everything now. They are now telling EVERYBODY that their mom got arrested. Sigh. Try explaining THAT one in the frozen foods section.

J even explained how he used to do bad things too but he got better. He told the girls that their mother is not trying to get better right now and thats why they can't be around her. J also told them she isn't safe right now. When they asked if she would ever get better he had to tell them he doesnt know. We DON'T know. She could die screwed up.

PJB-

Yes she has been on the do not pick up list for a looong time. The school has been informed of her condition and warned about the violent BF.

So sad we have to protect them from their own mother.

Silver-

J doesn't want you or anyone elses sympathy. He just wants this sh*t to do what it's going to do already and stop dragging out. We are just simply tired of the roller coaster.

It's extremly exhausting dealing with this kind of drama all the time. You are always holding your breath waiting for the next stunt. Everytime the phone rings really late or really early we think she's finally done herself in and we are fixing to have to tell the girls BM is dead. That kindof stress gets really old and you get to a point where you just want to hurry up and get it over with.

Aaargh!
I realize that BM's mom loves her daughter and wants her to have contact with the girls... But I think she also needs to respect that you and J are the ones who know the girls best and that you have chosen what to tell and not tell them.

I guess though, I'm a big advocate of being honest with kids, so I can also see that side of it - that she might think it's important to tell the girls where their mom really is.

Other than questions and big mouths (LOL!) how are the girls dealing with this new information? Coping OK? Angry? Sad? Relieved that BM isn't just avoiding them?

GM didn't "tell" the girls anything. She was running her mnoth to her husband in FRONT of the girls and they picked up bits and pieces and put two and two together.

What pissed J and I off what the fact that GM told the girls specifically to "not tell daddy". I do not dig that one teeny tiny little bit. She told those kids to with hold info from us which to me is the same as telling them to LIE. I don't dig teaching the kids it's Ok to be sneaky.

That stunt told us that if BM got out of jail, she and her mother woul just neglect to tell us and GM would ask to visit with the girls and then GM would let BM run off with them. No....can....do. The situation is too volatile to be dealing with sneaks.

The girls seemed shocked, then sad and then they got mad. They are mad that their mother spoke to them and just "forgot" to mention she was in jail. They are also mad that they can't see her because she keeps screwing up. I think the story is starting to come together for them now. I'm sure they are more upset than they are letting on. After about an hour of questions it was kindof like....Okee Dokee, back to what we were doing before and that was it. Everything went back like nothing had happened.

That "don't tell Daddy" thing is DEFINITELY not OK! I'd be pissed too!

Poor girls. They shouldn't have to deal with this sh17. They're sweet little girls, and they deserve a chance to just be sweet little girls without people messing with their minds.

"don't tell mommy/daddy" is the worst possible thing another adult can tell a child. talk about putting them in the middle. And I think you're right, it shows she is not to be trusted under any circumstances.

How sad for the girls.

It is so terribly sad becasue GM was the only way we though it wouold be possible for the girls to visit BM. When BM said she was goinng get into the House of Hope and was staying with her mother we had no problems with the girls visiting at GM's house. We thougt if there was shady things going,or BM was having a relapse or the BF was hanging around that GM would alert us....now we know that isn't true.

We hoped if BM ever did TRY to get better we could use GM as the visitation location but now we know that wouldn't be wise. BM could be strung out and the GM probably woldn't tell us the diffence:(

UUUUUGGGGGGHHHHHH! That has got to be my 3 biggest pet peeves!

1. Telling kids to keep secrets. I agree that parents don't have to know everything going on at the other parents home, but this is altogether different! This is a dangerous person that the only sane parent of these children has said they CANNOT talk to. She knew it was wrong and that's why she said it. She knew she was being sneaky.

2. Enabling parents! I hate that! Because that precious little baby is going to grow up and marry someone someday and have kids someday and that precious little baby will need to know how to make their way in the world. It's obvious that GM is partially responsible for BM's irresponsibility. Evidently there are no consequences for her actions.

3. Grandparents that butt into their grandkids' lives and try to be the parents. I HATE that! My XMIL obviously didn't think I was a good mom because she was always butting in where she wasn't wanted. Well, I got news for her.....my son can fix his own breakfast and make his own bed and start his own showers; was hers doing that at 10? HELL NO! At 21 she was still going into his room and getting out his dirty clothes. MY son puts his in the hamper! (whew do I feel better)

That's what J told Grandma. All three of the things you listed got brought up in their conversation. Mainly the enabling of BM and causing trust issues between us and her and heaping guilt on the girls.

The no consequence thing is part of the reason we didn't want to send BM pics of any sort. we had warned her she would be cut off if she didn't get into rehab. Not only did she not go to rehab but she bolted on the girls at Easter, ran back off to the BF's, got strung out and wound up arrested for stealing alchohol out of BF's mothers house. She was probably high when she did it.

Nope. BM needs to know we were very serious when we told her she would be cut off. There have been too many people to go back on their word and that's part of her problem....she always thinks everyone is bull sh*ting her and she'll be able to do what she wants with no reprecusions. She thought she'd sweet talk her way out of jail also and it hasn't worked too well for her.