Lots of good points Silver. As I m thinking about this, neither my DH or I wanted to divorce..We both feel when we discuss Exs that we both had intractable partners, non salvagable situations.. Only difference was I left, DH was asked to leave..My ex does not involve himself in any way in our lives...BM in DHs case does, and This is the Nutty BM thread..We have both discussed the feelings we have that both Exs have mental disorders that they both refused to get help for, so here we are shed of them and happier than either of us have ever been in our lives, as far as marriage goes..Neither of us consider ourselves perfect, I think, but neither of us feel we contributed to any great extent to the demise of the marriages..If they would have changed or compromised, we both probably still be married....Funny, in both our cases, the Exs imposed their will on us 100%,my way or the highway until the breaking point.What my ex would say, he treated me like a princess..What DH ex would say, I made a mistake getting rid of you, my guess..

no one has the first knowledge of what is going on in anyone's private life. plus what is good for one person might be awful for another. some people put up with stuff that others never would. someone might think the person is a great parent from outside but who really knows? so generalizations and assumptions are useless.

and I think when people say in anger that most (insert) are on welfare that most (insert) are lazy, that most (insert) are promiscous etc etc they only call for trouble. so let's say not most, but some, or people that you know. give up. generalizations aren't useful. venting is great but let's vent about people we know in person, not general groups of people.

agree wiht silvers by the way. making large amounts of money doesn't make one classy.

Dotz, I totally understand. My ex-husband was diagnosed with Bi-polar disorder and was a drug addict. I understand crazy. He hid it well, but I had signs and ignored them. That's how I contributed to the failure of our marriage. I should have gotten him help. I should have done more. But I wanted out. And he takes responsibility now, which helps a lot in us being civil and me not bad-mouthing him. And FD, generalizations don't work. You're right. Although I do think that most mothers are nutty. We are. C'mon, admit it!

I have to reiterate:

You can't buy class. And it doesn't matter if you hang out with cool people, that doesn't make you cool by proxy. I've hung out with movie and music stars in very casual situations, have had them helping me decorate my Christmas tree and even had dinner and drinks with some that I didn't know were famous until after... when my friends said "do you know who that was?". LOL. The good thing about my ignorance is I could form a completely unbiased opinion. My status didn't go up one iota. Of course, a lot of status is simply in a persons mind and has nothing to do with reality.

To me, a person has class if they don't try to embarass others. If they feed children and animals that come across their path. If they don't rub their accomplishments in the face of others. Class is helping someone when you will get nothing from it. Class is intangible and unnoticeable in its purest form. Class is giving credit where it's due and not expecting a thank you or acknowledgement.

Class is not driving a BMW. It is not Madonna or Tom Cruise. Class is humble. Class is Mother Teresa. Class is Lady Diana.

There are so many things I could say about this but...

Doodle, my concern is you've pretty much identified your "friend" by describing his businesses (and I have to agree that income and who you hobnob with has little to do with class) and I'm sure that's not your intention. I would suggest you contact the moderators of gardenweb and ask that they amend your post where you mention his businesses, or ask that they delete the whole thread (I understand you were mostly venting) because I doubt he'd be thrilled you're discussing him so identifiably. Just a suggestion.

I would add that class is not bad mouthing one's exspouse, especially if other people know that person. Men, who go around and talk to everybody how crazy are their exwives (and not on anonymous forums but in real life), are not classy men.

FD, you are so right, my sister is married to someone on a second marriage, and has a SS. My sister says BIL never says a bad word about X, even though she left him. BIL never has bad word to say about Xs current DH.

Doodle, I'm going to go back to the topic and see if I can address it:

"Why then does it stick in their crawl so when the guy gets serious with another woman? DO they seriously think just because they have kids with a guy that they can have their cake and eat it too? Do these woman have ANY identity outside of the man they had children with? Considering the fact that BM still introduces herself as "the bearer of J's children" (no joke) I'm guessing the answer is no."

The best example of this in my life is my mother. My parents were married for over ten years prior to me being born. They had active, successful lives. They owned houses, cars, went on vacations, were well liked by their spouses families, etc. Stereotypical middle-classed well educated Americans. When they divorced my mother moved on and remarried six or so years later. My dad didn't remarry for 16 years. His wife constantly rubs him in my mother's face. . (news flash... she left him!) My mother takes her little pot-shots by interjecting in very subtle ways that she is A) the mother of his child and B) that they had a rich history together and C) that she supported him through grad school and D) that they have interests that SM does not care about or know about so she looks like a little kid while they discuss the latest developments in their field and such and E) they are peers while my SM is 10 years younger. You get the picture. SM acts like she's the shiznit because she "has" my dad (prize that he is) and BM retaliates.

In other words, I think SM's sometimes have an air of superiority that can "stick" in a BM's craw and make her do irrational things. (In my SM's case, her superior attitude is a combination of things, one of which is her inferiority complex). SM's often act as if they think they are better than BM's because they now have the man. Often the BM knows he has flaws that SM has not realized yet and it irks her to no end that this woman is holding up the tattered toy she just threw to the ground and acting like it's a brand new object of desire.

Also, BM's know that the man probably told the SM unflattering things about her and that is an uncomfortable position to be in. AND... there is the worry that the child will be A) mistreated or B) the SM will make a relationship and then leave and the BM will be left to pick up the pieces or C) the SM will sabotage the Bio relationship.

And FD you are spot on. I totally agree. I have done my share of badmouthing but never where my DD could hear. Now that the sting is out of the wound it rarely happens, but that was a very unclassy trait of mine. Taking the higher road is something I'm still learning!!!

Pjb-

There are alot of folks who do what he does in ATL and make tons of money from it. Those two industries are pretty big there. I really don't think he'd lose any sleep anyway since nothing negative was said about him.

Finedreams and Silver

As far as class and money....The only reason I mentioned his money is because the way Finedreams put her opinion out there made me feel like she was saying we were all trailer trash drug addicts. That is far from the truth. The big majority of J's friends are pretty dang successful and ironically really nice decent people.

J was doing REALLY well as well when he was touring but when he got clean three years ago he walked away from the scene for awhile. He's just now easing back into it. let me put it to you this way, if he was back on the road with Kid Rock, Govt. Mule or Hank williams III money would not be an issue for us right now. He has chosen to be sober and he is taking it very very seriously. He doesn't want to jump out of the pan into the fire.

This guy in the OP is not just rich...he's humble. Which to me shows class. He is still frinds with his friends. Not many people have that much character. I also mentioned that he took in a child that wasn't his financially and emotionally. That to me shows great class and kindness as well. He also refrained from getting involved with another woman for six years and even then waited 7 months before introducing his children to the woman....again that to me shows class AND sensitivity. He is just a good guy all around.

Everyone here got hung up on the money thing. Money can turn people into @ssholes but it didn't with this guy. That is the only reason I factor his job/money into the class catagory.

"Also, BM's know that the man probably told the SM unflattering things about her"

I think she was guilty around me because she knew she was a cruddy mother. I think she felt really cruddy once she left the girls with us and left me holding the mommy bag. She won't even look me in the eyes now. I think the problem is her insecurities and I think that's been the problem from the start.

Plus she really does still love J even though it was her that cheated on him with the old BF. She told me she did countless times. This is not something I imagined. She straight up told me she was still in love with him and I should go away so they could be a family again. She also accused me of stealing him away but I didn't even know who he was untill after they had split and we didn't "hang out" with each other till after the divorce.

In my case BM is just hung up. It's just that simple. Addicts have trouble letting things go. They also tend to be control freaks. I think her hang up is part of the reason she is going down hill. Once we got pregnant she really went off the deep end and more or less dropped off the face of the earth. She won't even LOOK at baby.

"Often the BM knows he has flaws that SM has not realized yet and it irks her to no end that this woman is holding up the tattered toy she just threw to the ground and acting like it's a brand new object of desire."

Sometimes it's the woman who was a pain in @ss to live with. Sometimes it is the ex wife who was the tattered "toy". It's not always the man who was flawed in the relationship, sometimes it's the woman. Sometimes those flaws that caused tifts in the failed marriage carry over and continue to cause tifts in the new marriage....double that propability if there are chldren in the picture.

I think you have to factor in the dynamics of every relationship is different..Same husband, two uniquely different types of marriages...

Doodle, that's why I said OFTEN. Not ALWAYS. You're asking why BM's are nutty. I'm giving answers from a BM point of view. It doesn't mean it applies in your situation or any situation you know of.

I think the USUALLY in relationships can only be applied to USUALLY it's the fault of both parties that they broke up.

You say that "J" has not always been clean and sober. Have you considered that he may have played a good part in her being an addict? Sure, she's off the deep end now, but who was caring for the children while they were both addicts? It's great "J" has made a change and is now being responsible but I think you are exemplifying my statement that SM's often pick up the torch and carry it for the husband. Seen from an outsider's POV it appears to me that you are more willing to forgive "J's" past indescretions than excuse BM's. She's a "nut" and a "cruddy mother" while "J" is ok because he is a recovering addict.

I'm sorry Doodle, I don't want to be harsh, and it's apparent "J" has taken some really big steps to ensure the safety of his children, which is commendable. And it's apparent that you have taken on a large responsibility for these girls, which is commendable as well. BUT, here is the BUT... he contributed to Bio mom's demise. It sounds to me, and I could be wrong, but it sure seems like they were a happy dysfunctional family, doing the drug scene and whooping it up before you were in the picture. It makes me question if the kids were born on drugs? It's easy to throw rocks in a hole once you're out of the hole yourself. Now you are throwing the rocks for "J". Just my opinion.

J will admit he was not perfect in the marriage...he isn't the one who moved another man in the house though. That was the straw that broke the perverbial donkeys back.

J has also realized the error of his ways and has made HUGE strides and sacrifices to do better....BM has not. She is still riding hard on the party bus.

J was also willing to be amicable because he was over BM and just wanted everyone to get along for the girls... BM made this IMPOSSIBLE because she was very much so NOT over J.

He didn't push her buttons or cause her demise. That was all her doing. She could of just as easily of tried to get clean when he did while they were still married. He was already working on getting sober while they were still married. He could never get fully sober till he left her because addicts can not live with addicts. He was really trying for the sake of the kids though.

BM has had many chances since to do right....she just won't. You can't blame J or anyone else for her situation. She put herself there. She ditched the marriage and after he remarried she decided she screwed up. That's no ones fault but her own.

J is not throwing rocks.....he is trying to keep them from hitting the girls. You can't fault him for that. You can't accuse him of being holier than thou for that either. Just because he hasn't always been "perfect" doesn't mean he has no right to protect his kids now.

BM was an addict and screwed up way before J came along. She shot herself with the shot gun when she was only 18....10 years before they even met.

She has always had issues...J didn't not make her an addict. They met becasue at the time they were hanging with the same crowds. He doesn't socialize with any of those people now.

Doodle, I'm not blaming "J". I'm just pointing out the gray area that exists in relationships. Saying that addicts cannot live with addicts is true. Since he was an addict as well, that statement could easily be reversed.

He hit bottom. She hasn't yet. It doesn't mean you should do anything different or that because he made mistakes in the past it means he shouldn't do better in the future. But again, this goes both ways. I'm impressed that your family unit is as accomplished as it is considering the hurdles you have had to overcome. You have my respect in what you are doing for the girls and the stability you are providing. It is hard to overcome addiction. "J" deserves a lot of credit for getting his life together for his children. It's really too bad that BM is not in that place yet. Hopefully for the sake of her children she will be able to regain stability.

The girls were not drug babies. I asked J. That's something I needed to know. BM DID manage to stop druggin' during the pregncy. SHe wasn't as unstable then as she is now so she was able to do that.

We keep hoping maybe she'll snap out of it too but it seems she is willing to go alot lower than J ever did before she decides to make an effort towards recovery.

I have some negative stuff to say about my X, but I don't, although i am tempted. I never ever said anything to my SO, actually my SO said some mean things about his X and it bothers me tremendously. I think it is low but he is improving. As about me I do not encourage him to say bad things about her, I don't think it is my place to bash somebody else's exspouses. people are often angry or resentful of their exes and it clouds their perception and it would be childish of me to engage into that or encourage it.

If J used drugs with his exwife, or at the same time as her then i don't think it is his job to judge her. He is in recovery, but maybe she is not strong enough to be in recovery. drug addicts or alcoholics always remain ones, they stop using but they do not stop being addicted. i think they should be humbled by the fact that they could stop but other people couldn't.

i also think that he needs to be greatful to you for taking care of his children, you work and support 3 children and him. You took a huge task on yourself at rather young age.

Just to add that if like you say BM was drug addict and crazy before they met, then why and how did he end up wiht her and even had children. i think he is as guilty as she.

"BM was an addict and screwed up way before J came along. She shot herself with the shot gun when she was only 18....10 years before they even met.

She has always had issues...J didn't not make her an addict."

And yet he married her. He had kids with a woman with a history of drug abuse, addiction, issues. Not a judgment. I did something very similar. But an observation. You are not on this road because BM is who she is. You are on this road because J made choices at one point in his life that is now forever going to have an effect on your life, and on the life of his children/your children.

What about J? Was he on drugs while the girls were conceived? When they were born? My point is that it's easy to point fingers and say "BM's are nutty" but it's pretty nutty IMO to get married and pregnant with an addict. That is nuts.

I stand by my original statement that people are nuts. Myself included. I do my best to make good choices and still I look back and say, wow, that was a poor decision. I was not thinking clearly. Obviously, anyone looking at me would say "she's nuts".

And, it's a lot easier to look at things with some perspective once it's already happened and in the past. I can look back and say, yes, marrying a man who had substance abuse problems 15 years before you met him and is now clean is probably not the best choice. Why? Because those who had problems in the past are more likely to repeat those problems in the future. In my case, my Ex went back to the drugs. This does not always happen, and I'm not saying it will happen to you. But, on my part, in my situation this was a bad decision. Remember that sperm can be damaged from drug use as well. It takes two halves to make a baby. And while the 9mos is extremely important, having healthy sperm in the beginning is also highly desirable.

I married an ex-addict who had a relapse. Then I divorced him. And then I acted righteous and with indignation that his behavior was inappropriate and he was acting crazy. At the time I felt completely justified. Now with some perspective on my own, individual situation I can see how I created this and should have had a little more understanding and expectation of the outcome. I feel like a giant "DUH" was stamped on my forehead. What did I expect?

Marry an ex drug addict. He relapses. I leave him and crush his world. He goes nuts. I stand back and point my finger at him saying he's nuts. Now how did I create this situation again?

LOL. We've all made mistakes.

Finedreams-

He is not as guilty as her. He had his part in the girls being born but he has nothing to do with BM's current actions. He has not been her husband for going on four years. How can he be resposible for mistakes she is making in her personal life now? Seriously? How could that even be hinted at?

When he met her he was not a clean stable person himself. She said she could not get pregnant and with him being the drug addled person he was then...he believed her. Ta-Dah. Thus the girls were born.

He begain to see the possibility of his children going to state (this was when BM started getting REALLY bad) so he made a choice and got his butt clean....so far the fear of her kids never seeing her again isn't worth kicking the habit to BM. Right now she'd rather get high. He made a CHOICE. He doesn't even smoke cigarretes anymore! BM can make the same choice whenever she wants. Nobody is holding a gun to her ehad forcing her to keep making bad choices.

He is VERY grateful and tells me this constantly. He loves me I think more than he has loved any other adult in his life. He has actually told me this on a few occasions. Why? I don't know. I don't know why he is different with me. Maybe it was because he got clean, maybe he grew up, maybe I just showed him love when he needed it most. All I know is he tells me he loves and appreciates me at least tweenty times a day and he means it everytime he says it. His father told me that J told him I was a "god send". I think J trully feels that way.

He is getting more serious about his spirituality now as well. He feels all of this, including meeting me, was in the "plan". Our meeting was no accident.

J does not judge his ex. Far from it. He just refuses to put the girls through anymore than they have already been through. I don't think that's being judgy, I think that's being smart. He has told BM it is nothing personal at least fifty times.

Doodle, this is a complex situation. Again, as I have said, you are to be commeneded for the effort you have made with your skids.

When you say  I know that the kids are not drug babies, I asked J. Please listen to me  relying on a husband for a truthful version of the facts can be a mistake.

What scares me is that you apparently have a job with the State of Florida that involves children and yet stereotype mothers based on a limited sample. That is a disgrace.

I understand what you are saying and I appreciate your personal story.

J did his drugs on the road. That doesn't make it right but at least he didn't have drugs in the house with the girls. That was one of the things that caused alot of fights between he and BM. She would have a bunch of druggies over and have parties in the house with the kids in their room sleeping...etc.

J is not judging BM. She is crazy though. J is not mentally unstable. He was an addict but he never had hang ups or mental issues after the divorce. He was the one who was done "wrong" but he still walked away with out making a scene and was amicable to the new BF.

He took the high road. He got clean, he got new friends, he met a decent gal and when the time came he got his kids. He is doing his very best now to keep them safe. He has guilt for those first years of their life and he is more than making up for that now.

For the record...they got pregnant first and then married because of the pregnancy. Being pregnant is NEVER a good reason to get married and he knows that now. He looks back and sees alot of the mistakes he has made clearly now. Hindsight is 20/20 afterall. What matters is whether or not you make a proactive change. J has. BM has not.

I don't work with the parents KKNY. I work with the kids. ANy personal feelings I have does not affect the child's services I assure so you can stop calling me disgrace now. I get kids therapy if they need it....I don't do marriage counseling. If I was a Divorce Lawyer or a State Marriage Counselor your comment moght make some damn sense.

If you deal with any children from divorced families, I find it difficult to understand how your incredible disrespect for MOST mothers is not relevant. You are biased. It may be the result of the situation you are in, but when you say MOST moms are nuts, you are biased. You should not be dealing with children from divorced families.

Most of the high ballers in the house and the senate are soem of the most racist, judgemental, stereotyping b@st@rds you would ever want to meet.

People have personal opinions outside of their jobs. That may come as a big shocker to some (KKNY) but it's true! People have opinions that maybe sometimes arn't PC. ALL AND I DO MEAN ALL people do. Some just are too high and mighty to admit it.

"When he met her he was not a clean stable person himself. She said she could not get pregnant and with him being the drug addled person he was then...he believed her. Ta-Dah. Thus the girls were born."

He had unprotected sex, she had unprotected sex and she is blamed. You say 'J' does not blame his ex, but you do. I understand you and him not wanting to put the girls through anything more. But I don't think you understand the perspective from which I'm speaking. You are saying the girls were not drug babies. If J was on drugs when they were conceived, they were drug babies. He created a situation in which a drug-addict would be the mother of his children. Yes, he is equally responsible for where you and he and the children are right now. For this situation. Not for her individual choices now.

You are exemplifying my point that SM's often go to bat for the Biodad against the Biomom. Why would J badmouth BM? You do it for him!

I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, and I don't want to judge you. I simply don't think you have enough experience as a mother, as a divorcee, as a partner to see the situation as you have show it to us; clearly.

Since J was also drugged out it is likely BM had a different idea of what was going to happen than what did happen. If J did not get sober with her, while she was sober for the 9 months the girls were in utero then he is an enabler for her to return to drugs. He should accept responsibility for the outcome. No, he is not responsible 100%. But he is not an innocent.

Casting you as the "rescuing savior" is also very common. I have no doubt you are a good influence. But this cycle is so often repeated. You are good, therefore she must be bad in order for the stereotypes to continue. Your goodness is balanced by her badness. Role-playing at it's worst.

I don't even know which families are divorced KKNY because I don't deal wit the paretns. Even if I DID I wouldn't say "Oh I'm sorry, your kid needs therapy but since you are divorced I hope you rot." Get real girl.

I only have distain for the nut jobs who I KNOW have been nasty, underhanded, trouble making, child brain scrambling, step mother harassing pains in the behind! It just happens they are MOST of the personal NOT JOB RELATED but personal cases I know.

I could honestly give two sh*ts whether or not a child I see parents are divorced or not. The only way I would care is if there was subsequent emotional residue and the child needed some kindof therapy. Then I would break my back to make sure that child got it. You do not know me KKNY.

"You should not be dealing with children from divorced families."

Really??? I guess kkny should not deal with men... or pretty women (eye candy)??? After all, under kkny's theory ~ you can't be biased yet fair.

KKNY, does that mean you treat differently at work, men or pretty young things that remind you of exH's eye candy?

Of course people have opinions -- but when they directly relate to their state jobs that deal with children AND they dont try to deal with their biases, it is a disgrace.

Ima, I dont work for the state. I dont have the authority to suggest/require treatment for children. I dont ask anyone if they are married to someone who has been married before. I work with some attractive people, some not attractive people, and it doesnt effect me. Most of my peers are men, and I work with them just fine.

But I guess it is OK by you if State of Florida workers invovled with children are biased agaisnt moms.

I am a good person SIlver.

She is bad.

J used to be bad but he is improving more and more every day.

There is no role playing. We all are what we are. J takes his blame. I have given him plenty of hell for his past decisions. J and I have moved on. We have the girls. They are in a safe and loving environment.

When ever BM decides to step up we will be glad to work with her. Right now though she is living with her current choices. There is nothing we can do about that. J has no hand in that and neither do I.

"J did his drugs on the road. That doesn't make it right but at least he didn't have drugs in the house with the girls."

Justification. They were both doing drugs. He could go on the road, she had to stay home with the kids. I think in that case it would be expected that she would do the drugs in the home. She didn't have the "out" that he did. Equally horrendous.

"J is not judging BM. She is crazy though."

You are judging her. He doesn't have to. You are fighting the fight for him. Don't feel bad, this is extremely common. "Crazy" is an illness. She is a sick woman. No excuses, but a little understanding and compassion would be the higher road.

"J is not mentally unstable. He was an addict but he never had hang ups or mental issues after the divorce."

Wow. I think someone would need to be mentally unstable to think it's ok to do drugs on the road, leaving your wife/mother of twins at home knowing she has had a drug problem in the past and all your common friends are drug addicts and not expect that in the postpartum depression and stress of taking care of not one but two children would have a high probability of her relapsing.

"He was the one who was done "wrong"..."

Oh Doodle! He did her wrong too! She brought another man in the house. Well, he was on the road, gone, doing drugs and expecting her to be the little wifey at home. I think this is a clear case of dual responsibility for the outcome.

"What matters is whether or not you make a proactive change. J has. BM has not."

That is true. But I think that should be amended to say that "J has made a proactive change and BM has not as of this date". There is not a cut-off line of when it is ok to get your life together and when it is just too late. That is something built in to the Christian philosophy. The sinner who repents on his deathbed is not looked upon with less favor than the one who repented four years ago.

Doodle, I have no doubt you are a "good" person. As I wrote above, and I feel needs reiteration:

"I'm impressed that your family unit is as accomplished as it is considering the hurdles you have had to overcome. You have my respect in what you are doing for the girls and the stability you are providing. "J" deserves a lot of credit for getting his life together for his children."

But "good" and "bad" are judgment calls. "There is nothing we can do about that. J has no hand in that and neither do I. "

I think that there is a lot of power in what we put out to the universe. Continuing to call her names, label her and diminish J's role in this situation does not benefit her or you. J may have taken responsibility and you may have "...given him plenty of hell for his past decisions..." but you have not moved on if you still harbor so much venom for this woman.

This is just my opinion. I don't know you, and from what I can tell you seem to be a very responsible, kind, generous woman. I'm just calling it as I see it.

doodle you said she was on drugs and crazy way before they have met yet he married her and had children. and you are saying he is not responsible for any of it? he was way over 18, right?

then you said he is off drugs for 3 years but kids are 5-6, so he's been doing drugs while he had kids. yet you are saying he is not responsible for any of it only she is.

we don't know if children were conceived while he was under the influence but he did drugs after children were born. yet you are saying he is not responsible for any of it.

so what makes him not being responsible for his actions?

he's been only off drugs for 3 years and he already is so much more superior to those who are still using. why so? 3 years is a very short time to make such judgements of others who are in the same boat.

Yes I judge her Silversword. I think I have said that. I honestly blame her. He doesn't. I am with in my right to think of her in any I want. I have never been high ir strung out.I have never chose my personal life over a child....let alone my own.

I have seen her do some pretty jacked up things both to me and the girls. I am not going to forgive her for those things simply because my husband USE to have an addiction. He had an addiction 3 and a half years ago. That holds no sway on my feelings for her now.

I never said I didn't blame her. I totally do. I don't fight for him though. I have very little actual contact with BM. He does all those dealings. He makes all of those calls. I don't go to bat for him except on her because everyone always seems to want to tear him apart because of his past.

No one here has the perfect family or they wouldn't have a reason to post here to begin with. If you didn't ahve some sortof issue Silverasword, you wouldn't be here. I dare one poster to claim their husband/wife is perfect. That's not life. You can't bring up any flaws or concern here or they get shoved back in your face fifty posts later.

As far as him being on the road...she wasn't complaining when she was using his money was she? Again, she knew he was a musician and she still chose to risk getting pregnant. I feel she did it on purpose even. Your view point can go two ways Silver. She KNEW what she was getting into as well as I did when I married J. She knew what he was just as well as I knew he had a crazy ex. Same damn thing. What you said about me KNOWING the situation and J KNOWING she was a user but still getting her pregnant also applies to her KNOWING he had been a musician for his entire life! What is good of the goose is good for the gander....am I right or are you goig to have the nerve to contradict yourself here?

I didn't justify the drug use either. I said at least he wasn't doing it in front of or around the kids. Even F*cked up he always had more sense and self control than BM. She never used any control and kept getting progressively worse while J got progressively better. That cycle is still continuing. J will be awarded custody of those girls as a result. The Judge will Judge her.

As far as cut off dates...that is just stupid. We have held out hope for three years. I am not going to add a little cliff's note on the end of every conversation about BM about how she "might" get better. "Yes, the girls mom is still strung out.....that's subject to change though" I have said we hope she gets better but we are not holding our breaths. She is pretty much dying from the damage she has done to her body. If she repents on her death bed she is square with god but what about her kids??????

I have given J plenty of hell for his hand in the past mistakes. J takes his share of the blame as well. As far as either of us taking the blame for BM's current condition. HELL NO WE DON'T.

He doesn't think he is superior either. Has he got on here and posted a message to you all telling you how much better than BM he is? No he hasn't.
He has never posted on here at all so I don't understand where you get the idea that he feels superior????

He is deffinatly a better parent than her now. That's just bloody obviouss.

My venom and disgust towards BM will dissapear as soon as she makes an honest effort to do right by her kids.

As for right now....I wouldn't piss on her to put a fire out and that's my perogative. I have no ties to her and I don't have to like her.

"But I guess it is OK by you if State of Florida workers invovled with children are biased agaisnt moms."

Well, I worked for social services and despised people that abused the system but it was my job to deal with them. It was my job to issue benefits to lazy people that won't work and I hated it, but I am a fair person so even if I don't agree with the rules and regulations, I carried them out and gave them what the regulations say they were entitled to (and I hate that word too). I don't need to 'deal' with my biases.... I cannot stand lazy people that won't work and abuse the system and that will probably never change. I see nothing wrong with having my own personal opinion and it never impacted my ability to do my job.

Perhaps it would be a problem for you but not everyone carries their personal biases over into work... currently, I don't care for some of the people that hire me to serve their papers. I don't have to agree with them to do my job. My job is to provide a service, it does not mean I have to like every person that hires me, nor do I have to agree with them. and I don't know why you would think someone should be held to a higher standard just because they work in a public servant capacity versus private company.... don't ethics matter to EVERYONE? In fact, public employees are held to following regulations and specific guidelines... where a private employee is more likely to make decisions based on their personal beliefs.

Ima, I dont now where you have stats to back up your beleives that private employees are "more likely . . . "

You mention your dislike of people who abuse the system. That is different than doodle's dislike and belittlement of mothers. I don't treat people differently becasue of who they are. I have said that.

I dont think the State of Florida should employ anyone in a child related field if they feel comfortable belittling "most" mothers. Its not right.

of course nobody is perfect but people should admit responsibility.

maybe J doesn't see himself as superior but you sure do. you blame her and see her the only responsible one, yet they both used drugs and had babies while on drugs. and no, mentally stable people do not have babies wiht drugaddicts and do not marry them.

there is no such thing as "used" to have addiction. people remain addicts or alcoholics their entire life even if they aren't currently using.

and doolde the reason he didn't do drugs in front of his kids is because he was not home, he was gone while druggaddicted mother was there wiht the kids. what kind of justification is that? how is it better?

and what is with the musician? plenty of musicians are clean people and what kind of reasoning is that, how is that even relevant? if he would be drugg addicted garbage collector, would you even mention his job?

it is pointless to be that mad at sick addicted person, let J get custody if he is currently clean and hopefully stays this way and take care of the children (but if he doesn't work would he even get custody?)

Once again...I am a mother. I am not knocking mothers. I am knocking ex wives who start acting like they eat paint chips for fun when their ex moves on.

I don't know what to tell you hon but all my supervisores would tell you is as long as my opinions do not affect my job, and they don't, they don't care what they are.

You would fing even more disgraceful that the majority of them have delt with similar situations and would probably agree with me any way. We don't discuss it at work but I can assure you off the clock I have had a number of co-workers call their husbands ex crazy.

"and what is with the musician?"

I was refering to him being gone on the road. She knew he was a musician and would be gone on the road.
I do put blame of past incidents on j but i do not at all blame him for bm's cluster f*ck life now. that is her bad.

drugs run deep in the music scene hon. they dont all do it but alot of them do. j toured for almost fifteen years....he would know.

"am I right or are you goig to have the nerve to contradict yourself here? "

Nope. I've said time and again that the responsibility should be shared. You are accusing BM's of being nutty, and I am saying exactly what you just said above "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" or "it takes two to tango".

I'm saying that while BM's may be nutty, usually nutty behavior is provoked. You are defensive of J. That is understandable. I don't think my spouse, or anyone are perfect. I already admitted my mistakes readily and my hand in it.

In my situation my ex had been clean for 15 years PRIOR to us meeting. He was home every night. We both had high status, high paying jobs and lived in a nice home and drove nice cars. We were a "nice" family. I had some indications but I ignored them. I believed him. My mistake. I take responsibility for marrying an ex-addict. Relapse rates for addictive diseases usually are in the range of 50% to 90%. Those aren't very good odds. I found out later he and his parents had withheld information from me regarding his mental issues. I didn't know he was bi-polar. That explained a lot.

Doodle, I'm afraid you dug a hole and can't get out now. I'm offering my hand. This is a really sticky subject and I don't want to bash on J or on you. Please understand though, if you put out statements like "ex wives who start acting like they eat paint chips for fun when their ex moves on" will provoke responses like those above. From what I can see, J knew she ate paint chips for fun when he met her. Normal, well adjusted people do not shoot themselves with guns. He had indications. As did I. Hopefully you will not have to endure the horror of divorce and looking at your ex-marriage with the kind of microscope that many of the rest of us have. I do wish you the best. Know that you are in the tunnel of first marriage, and once a person has gone through that particular tunnel it does look different from the other side.

"Continuing to call her names, label her and diminish J's role in this situation does not benefit her or you."

She is all the things I call her and more. J's only role in the situation as it stands is to protect the girls. It does me plenty good. I blow off steam and normally feel much better when I unload.

"you blame her and see her the only responsible one,"

WRONG! Read my damn posts. I just don't hold him responsible for BM's current state:

" He had his part in the girls being born but he has nothing to do with BM's current actions."

"I have given him plenty of hell for his past decisions."

"there is no such thing as "used" to have addiction. people remain addicts or alcoholics their entire life even if they aren't currently using."

Thanks for stating the obvious but I have already said this:

"J was doing REALLY well as well when he was touring but when he got clean three years ago he walked away from the scene for awhile. He's just now easing back into it. let me put it to you this way, if he was back on the road with Kid Rock, Govt. Mule or Hank williams III money would not be an issue for us right now. He has chosen to be sober and he is taking it very very seriously. He doesn't want to jump out of the pan into the fire."

He knows that the music scene is full of drugs so he is taking it slowly. He gave up his IMMENSE love to play in order to get and stay clean. Can't you at least give him snaps for that.

J is doing great now and seem more happy to tear him apart than the dumb cow who is still strung out sitting in jail right now.

"I honestly blame her. He doesn't"

Why doesn't he blame her?

i am not denying his part in the failed marriage or anything leading up to the divorce. i will not sit here and say he is responsible for her actions now.

he is divorced. he has nothing to do with her personal life. that is her puppy. that is all im saying.

she did act like a loon when we started dating and it was not provoked. it was some of those true colors coming out. they continued to come out and run together untill the woman was a bigger mess than a Salvadore Dali.

He doesn't blame her because he isn't the blaming kind. He also does have guilt about having a hand in the PAST mistakes...getting BM pregnant, marrying her, taking 2 and half years to get serious about getting clean. KEY WORD HERE IS PAST. He feels bad he screwed up IN THE PAST. THA PAST. Back when he actually had a hand in the goings on.

He does not take any responsibility for the fact that she is still on the drugs, has a failing liver, has hapatitus, has an abusive boyfriend, doesn't see her kids, has no job or car or home, and is sitting in jail on two felony charges. He most absolutely does not blame himself for that. He has said her current position is her own fault and he doesn't feel sorry for her. He shouldn't either. He got clean before he got that far she could have as well.

I very rarely bash my Ex. Not that I don't have things to complain about lol, but compared to this board, most of it is very minor.

But anyway, I feel that my choice in him is a direct reflection of me. So basically I'm complaining about myself too, don't know if I'm saying this right. But yes, when people do talk about their ex or their current spouses ex, I suspect a lot of people judge the complainer just for choosing to be affiliated with the "bad" person lol. I think that is why J doesn't blame or say anything.

But Doodle has every right to her opinions of their mother. Sure it's clouded with bias, but I think it's only natural in her situation.

There are other situations on the board where I definitely think the new wife has no business making judgement calls or how would they even know anything about them personally, but Doodle has actual verifiable and valid reasons IMO. The mother is not around and a drug addict, I agree that J is not innocent but I don't see Doodle saying he is.

but I still disagree that most moms are nutty lol. Most moms I know are darn good moms, even divorced ones. Fathers are too. There's very few people that I can point to and say they are an awful parent (excluding my mentally ill stepmother lol) I just see people with different parenting philosphies and different ways. And I see that a lot here too, BM has a different way but the SM must find a way to make it BAD. See the two articles I posted above for reference lol.

Silver, I think you made a lot of great points in this thread btw.

Doodle - in response to your OP: My situation with my SO is a perfect example of this. She cheated on him, left him, filed for divorce, moved back in forcing him to leave his home, tricked him in the divorce papers (yes, I know SO was stupid), married another man less than a year after the divorce, and got pregnant 8 months after the marriage. All of this before I even entered SO's life.

I dated SO for 4+ years before we took a 6-month "break" a couple of years ago. BM was always okay with me being involved in their DD's life. I would help out with the all-consuming extra-curricular activity I've written of in the past, and she was always nice. I attended all concerts and softball games and birthday parties. She even used to invite my DS to the birthday parties. While SO and I were split, she even told him that she hoped he and I got back together because she had "no problem" with me.

That all changed when we did get back together. She started demanding their DD come home early on Sundays, picking her up from our house on Saturdays and Sundays in the middle of the day for some impromptu errand that had to be run, telling her to lie to SO about something as small as going to Red Lobster, and then (the big one) moving 10 hours away and limiting her visits here. She will be here for only 2 days and this will be her first visit since Christmas. On top of that, BM is "bringing" her because they are on their way to a family vacation (BM wonÂt tell us if she will be available for OUR vacation).

ItÂs been really hard for me. I truly love my SOÂs DD and have tried to forge a friendship with her. BM had no problem with it for a long time, but then she severed it and itÂs painful.

This is a double standard, though. BM started having her call SF "Dad" when BM got pregnant. The excuse "They donÂt want to confuse the baby". Do you know how much it hurts SO when heÂs talking to his DD that he hasnÂt seen in 5 months and she accidentally calls her SF "Dad"? ItÂs a damn-near fatal blow every time. BM also has her buy FatherÂs Day gifts for SF and spend time with him that day, taking away time with SO. About a year and a half ago, BM called their DD at 1 PM to go home right that minute. She was at work and yelling at her on the phone. She wasnÂt even home! SF was. The gist of the tirade was that SO was doing something for a couple of hours and so I made plans with his DD to go shopping and get lunch. Not all day. Just a couple hours.

KKNY said "In the majority of cases I know doodle, man leaves wife (got that wife, not GF) of many years for younger woman. Mom has primary physical custody."

This is simply not true. I am the one that left my marriage and, shockingly enough, I had pretty solid reasons to get my son out of that life. And it didnÂt include me having another man, either.

Hey, wait a sec, doesnt majority mean most? As in a majority of cases? I m just sayin...