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hot sauce-abuse charges

Posted by parent_of_one (My Page) on
Wed, Feb 2, 11 at 21:26

http://moms.today.com/_news/2011/01/29/5942612-is-hot-saucing-discipline-or-abuse

The mother is charged with child abuse for using hot sauce as a punishment. There was more to her abusive behavior: cold shower for example, but as I was reading it I thought of discussions on this forum. There is no need to respond because everyone knows my views and I know other people's views but I sincerely hope that no one will ever use hot sauce as punishment anymore as it fits into abusive style of parenting in the eyes of the law (not only by any moral code or common sense)


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

lol, they need to do an article on abuse by oatmeal & peanut butter.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

hahahaha

If cold showers were a form of child abuse my parents would have been locked away for years!!! Oh, and cayenne pepper flakes in clear nail polish to keep me from biting my nails (thanks mom!!) What about putting your kids outside and locking the door? I can remember my sister throwing HUGE hissy fits and my mom picking her up and putting her outside. In her PJ's, age 7-10 (I don't remember how old we were). She stopped screaming pretty quick.

Effective, yes. Child abuse??

The thing that struck me about the video is that the mother kept reiterating what he was being punished for and asking him to make sure he knew why he was being punished. She's being charged because "burning, branding or scalding" are considered abusive forms of child discipline. The hot sauce is considered "burning". Since the jury of her peers has yet to decide if hot sauce is tantamount to burning I think saying it's abusive in the eyes of the law is a bit preemptive.

Here is a link that might be useful: Discipline or Abuse?


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

Wow, I never knew how "abused" I was as a child! We always had to eat all of whatever was made for dinner - and my father really liked hot, spicy food. So we were forced to eat hot (spicy) foods on a regular basis, and not even as punishment - who knew my father was a criminal?!

Seriously, I can't imagine when I'd be putting hot sauce in a seven year old's mouth as punishment - but I agree with Silversword, that doesn't necessarily make it "child abuse". I knew kids whose toys were given away if they didn't put them away properly, I knew kids who were woken up from sleep if they hadn't finished their chores and made to complete them in the middle of the night... that may be strict parenting but it's not child abuse.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

"be warned: It's brutal to watch. The sound of her son screaming and sobbing as Beagley calmly administers this "punishment" is hard to forget."

That's abuse.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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cannot stop thinking about this...

I'm shocked at the number of people who find this not only acceptable but funny.

Forcing anything into another person's mouth is obnoxious, insulting, offensive, & abusive.

Forcing something that *burns* into the mouth is abuse.

If you find that acceptable, how do you feel about, say, hot sauce in the eyes of a child who won't stop peeping on his sister? or the rectum of a child who messes his diaper?

The fact that the woman keeps repeating what he's being "punished" for doesn't make this less abusive;
anyone who has lived with an abuser or who has read the paper knows that abusers often repeat over & over what their victim's "transgression" was, to reinforce the victim's feeling of guilt & terror.

This witch needs to be in jail, & the child should be given to a loving family.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

"The sound of her son screaming and sobbing as Beagley calmly administers this "punishment" is hard to forget."

On the video shown, the child is not screaming or sobbing during the "hot sauce" punishment, but rather during the cold shower (which, frankly, seems like more borderline child abuse to me).

I'll repeat - I cannot imagine when I'd be putting hot sauce into a child's mouth. But I am completely unimpressed with the "expert's" suggested "punishment" on that video - taking away television. Our SS does not watch television here, except on special occasions, and neither do we. I have absolutely zero respect for any so-called "expert" who believes that television should be allowed to be such an important part of a child's life that taking it away constitutes a punishment.

In my opinion, allowing one's children to be raised by a freakin' television, to the point where withholding access to it is going to "punish" them, is a lot closer to child neglect than putting a drop of hot sauce in a child's mouth is to child abuse.

Which of those two is really going to have more long-term consequences - a drop of hot sauce two or three times in a child's life? Or sitting glazed-eyed and drooling, staring at a television screen for hours upon hours each week?


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

We were at a Mexican restaurant a couple of weeks ago. DGS2 wanted chips & saw us dipping ours into the salsa. He wanted to dip his so I told him "hot"! and he still wanted to try. I let him. He didn't cry but he did scrape his tongue on his teeth & smack his lips a couple of times. I hope he learns to like spicy food because I love spicy & chilies have health benefits.

We had a discussion before about soap being used in the mouth & it was something that would have been done if bad language was used when I was a kid. Of course, I never wanted to find out if my parents would actually follow through. Hot sauce would be more desirable than soap, in my opinion. Heck, I was told about punishments in other countries for stealing (cut off the hand) or lying (cut out the tongue) and I remember mom telling me she would break my fingers if I stole. I have to say that honesty is one of my core values...

Personally, I think too much power to discipline children has been taken from parents & schools so we have a group of children that feel entitled. We live in a society where any infringement on our life might result in a lawsuit. We pamper children & worry about them getting hurt feelings if they don't get picked on a team, their team loses, etc. so they give every kid that plays a trophy, certificate or award. In my opinion, that diminishes everyone's self esteem because you gain self esteem from your accomplishments... and giving everyone equal treatment leads to feeling entitled to be treated the same, even if you are not as good a player. When I was a kid, the good players were the ones that got all the accolades & if you wanted to be a good player, you practiced and if you couldn't get good at it, you faced it & found something you were good at. I think it's a shame today, that good players have to share their glory with the not so good players... just to be fair. (fair to the not good player, in my opinion. Not so fair to the good player) Sorry I took it off track a little... but I think people take it too far nowadays & parent's have less authority. But then again, lots of people make children they don't stick around to take responsibility for... and think because they provided the uterus or sperm, they are a parent.

Personally, I think that abuse is in the eye of the beholder. If the child does not feel abused, then maybe they are not. Maybe they have strict parents. Of course, on the other side of that token is a child that feels abused being given oatmeal or peanut butter to eat.

Just my opinion & thoughts, rambling as they may be.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

"On the video shown, the child is not screaming or sobbing during the "hot sauce" punishment, but rather during the cold shower (which, frankly, seems like more borderline child abuse to me).

I'll repeat - I cannot imagine when I'd be putting hot sauce into a child's mouth. "

I do agree that cold shower as punishment appears more abusive than hot sauce. Yes I cannot imagine doing any of that stuff to my child or any child either.

Hot sauce as a condiment (if someone likes hot food) is one thing but as punishment (to make one suffer or feel humiliated) is something entirely different.

I find it strange that just because people had to endure such and such punishment as children it makes it OK, or just because their parents did this it makes it OK.

If someone survived emotional and/physical abuse and turned out OK, it does not mean it was OK. It does not mean you must practice it with your own children. It is twisted logic.

Now I have no intentions to convert people, i have no such power, i just want people to realize that something they think is OK could be viewed as abuse by someone else. Even if your child goes to school and says mommy gives me hot sauce as punishment and it burns, you never know, someone might call CPS.


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interesting article

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52899-2004Aug9?language=printer

"Hot saucing," or "hot tongue," has roots in Southern culture, according to some advocates of the controversial disciplinary method, but it has spread throughout the country. Nobody keeps track of how many parents do it, but most experts contacted for this story, including pediatricians, psychologists and child welfare professionals, were familiar with it.

The use of hot sauce has been advocated in a popular book, in a magazine for Christian women and on Internet sites. Web-based discussions on parenting carry intense, often emotional exchanges on the topic.

Virginia's child protective services agency lists hot saucing among disciplinary tactics it calls "bizarre behaviors." The list includes such methods as forcing a child to kneel on sharp gravel, and locking him in a closet. "

"bizarre behaviors"=indeed.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

--"Which of those two is really going to have more long-term consequences - a drop of hot sauce two or three times in a child's life...?"--

The major difference for me on this video though is it is not a drop or two. Not all 'hot sauces' are created equal. Not all amounts and/or length of 'treatment' are created equal nor are these factors going to be the same from one random person to the next.

The video clearly shows this was not a 'drop or two'. Lady poured a fair amount in the kid's mouth and then made sure in a stern voice that kid had not swallowed it. The child spit out no small amount from his mouth when he was finally allowed to.

What was she going to do if the child had swallowed? What's the next step in her 'discipline routine' if violation occurs? Are you sure of your answer before you respond to my question? She had already performed the 'hot sauce treatment'. Was that not , in her opinion, enough? Was the child going to be taught a lesson or did discipline madatorily call for a second lesson of 'and now a cold shower'? When does punishment outweigh the 'crime'?

What degree of 'hot' was the sauce? (I did not watch whole video so if it was clearly shown to be something like mild I missed that part) Does opinions change of amount and time basing opinion on 'heat'? Say chili peppers mild vs habanero? The child spit out no small amount from his mouth when he was finally allowed to.

That was quit a stretch of time lady had this child hold it in mouth. A drop or two on tongue vs pour some in and hold it in. The video shows one person. How does anyone saying 'hot sauce treatment is ok' know who they are endorsing this 'treatment' to? What nut will 'we' be encouraging to hot sauce treatment their kid without knowing a thing about what 'we' thought would be ok and what 'they' thought would be ok?

No, I just can not encourage people, especially faceless people I know nothing about, to 'yeah, go ahead and perform a hot sauce treatment, that's perfectly ok'.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

I had a neighbor whose little boy, barely more than a toddler, was a hellion. He was a nice kid, and didn't mean to cause trouble, but he was, as a friend put it, "the kind of kid who walks into a room and heads straight for the chainsaw". He was just one of those kids with no apparent sense of fear whatsoever, and because he was so young, he had no real idea of the possible consequences for some of his actions.

For example, it took him all of fifteen minutes to pull over a chair, unscrew the newly installed window locks with a butter knife, push out the screen, and begin to climb out of the second story window; fortunately I was sitting outside and looked up when the screen came crashing down so the parents retrieved him in time.

So what are parents of kids like that supposed to do? Sure, you can explain to a kid that they could get hurt badly - but a four year old doesn't truly understand that; he's thinking skinned knees or maybe a broken bone, but not head injuries, brain damage, paralysis or worse. You can put him in time-out, you can remove his television watching privileges - but what do you do if none of that works? You can't literally lock him in a padded room. You can't spend 24 hours a day following him around (said neighbors also had a baby girl).

If a child is becoming such a menace to himself or others that the behavior a parent is trying to prevent has consequences astronomically worse than the punishment inflicted, I'm not going to sit in judgment of parents who are, basically, doing what they think is best to keep their child/children safe. If a child is spanked, but never again plays circus performer by throwing steak knives at his younger brother, was it the wrong thing to do?


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

I don't think I'm ever going to agree with the adamant anti-hot saucers here any more than I'll agree with my parents that I parent too strict.

Of course, when my daughter is with them and can be trusted to "stay right there and don't move" or to go into an appt. with someone and not say one word for an hour but read quietly or other behaviors they admire...

Some parents, when their kid says "my shoe is untied", tie the shoe for them. I tell my dd "I noticed that". And then she is to do it herself, live with it, or ask for help. I rarely give unsolicited help.

There are children in a group we belong to. Four sisters, age 5-9. They run wild, whine, beg, complain, scream and don't listen one bit. It's horrible to be with them. They want discipline so bad (IMO)... they're looking for the line and not finding it. Last week the mom told me one of them was going on meds, for bi-polar and for ADD/ADHD.

My armchair diagnosis? Discipline is all that little girl needs. To know what is ok. To know what will happen if she does something that is not ok. I think hot sauce is far less damaging than putting a nine year old on bipolar medication ADHD/ADD medication because you don't want to deal with their behavior.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

Heartbreaking video..Wrong wrong wrong....This boy will not grow up to be entitled , he ll wind up taking out his childhood trauma beating up someone half to death in an alley some where, someday....Geez, if you have a daredevil or high strung kid , or whatever you want to call them (and I do agree some are easier to raise then others)here are a few suggestions..YES Supervise them much more closely!!! Enroll them in gymnastics..Find something they like to do and make sure they spend a lot of time doing it...Tire them out!! Take a run with them..Get them a pet to teach them empathy..Talk Talk talk, repeat repeat, not threaten...I ve rarely seen a kid that was an untameable beast, but I have seen a lot of self absorbed parents that want to raise an easy child..You dont always get one of those and you will have to work a little harder..Agree with Slyvia, if you dont want to put the work into it, give the kid to a loving family if you cant control yourself....


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

I personally think if children throw steak knives at other kids or generally exhibit severely dangerous behaviors, it is more important to get to the bottom of their behavior rather than invent the most effective punishment.

If a child is that difficult and causing that much trouble than maybe he/she needs to be evaluated. Normally developing children are not throwing knives and punishment won't fix it.

Plus often ridiculous behavior of children is caused by their parents. Generally children of overbearing and overly controlling or inconsistent parents are either rebellious or very anxious.
"I ve rarely seen a kid that was an untameable beast, but I have seen a lot of self absorbed parents that want to raise an easy child..You dont always get one of those and you will have to work a little harder..Agree with Slyvia, if you dont want to put the work into it, give the kid to a loving family if you cant control yourself....'
AMEN!


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why either or?

"Which of those two is really going to have more long-term consequences - a drop of hot sauce two or three times in a child's life? Or sitting glazed-eyed and drooling, staring at a television screen for hours upon hours each week?"

Why does it have to be either or? i don't know what has worse consequence and why does it matter? But there are more parenting methods than putting them in front of TV or punishing and abusing them. Don't have to choose between these two.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

I think it's horrible to say that this child will end up beating someone half to death in an alley someday. There is no way of knowing that.

I was talking about "good parents/kids" and "bad parents/kids" with a friend the other day. We both know kids with exceptional parents who turned out rotten and kids with horrible parents who turned out great. I want to know where you find a loving caring person who is willing to take a child... wasn't this woman vetted prior to adoption? Yes. Wasn't she considered a healthy house? Yes. Are the children (all five of them) still in the house because the home is not considered an unhealthy place for them to stay? Yes.

Give your kid up because you can't handle... and they'll be living with this woman. Saying someone should "give their child away" is ridiculous. Studies have shown that unless the abuse is bad that kids are better off staying with their natural parents - the psychological damage of removing them is greater than the damage the parents are inflicting. Better to educate the parents than remove the children.

"Plus often ridiculous behavior of children is caused by their parents."

What would you say about the parents of adult children who steal from their parent's SO, trash their house, lie and are unable to perceive common social boundaries?


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

Have read hundreds of real life backrounds of incarcerated inmates who have done worse than beating some one in an alley, and cold baths, scalding, force feeding gross food and liquids are common...And some even worse things I wont go into lest someone consider it irrelevant, becaise this is only a millaliter of hot sauce..Adoptive parents abuse too, after being vetted, but most of the cases I have read about are attachment disorder...It would be ridiculous to say, oh I m a lousy parent, I m going to give away my family of five, would ahve been more prudent when you recognize you arent parent material, when the child is an infant or toddler, get help, DONT HAVE FOUR MORE, and if you are that extreme of a disiplinarian, or yes, maybe give the child to a relative more able to cope with parenting a difficult child....


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

Are you talking about SD? ha Such behaviors could be also caused by permissive spoiling parenting, afraid to say "no" to the kids. SO is a very lenient parent, typically guilty spoiling dad. And BM is crazy. Not a good combination.

But in any case she isn't my child, I have no control how she was raised, I have met her as an adult. So I had as much control over her upbringing as I have over that abusive parent on TV.

We can only control our own parenting. I personally think it is OK to say "no" to the kids, there is no need to spoil them rotten but it is not OK to abuse and punish either. It does not have to be "either or".


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dotz

yes dotz, no guarantee this kid will grow to be a criminal or crazy, but the chances are high that he will. There is a very direct link between abusive parenting and either criminal future or serious emotional disturbance. Very direct correlation. And yes they develop attachment disorders.

Well think about it, this person is suppose to be loving you more than anything in the world, they are suppose to protect you from evil, you love this person more than anything in the world yet that same person stands in front of you tell you to open your mouth, announce that the punishment time comes and shoves something burning or nasty there, what a conflicting and confusing moment for a child.

They may not grow to be criminals but they will have emotional problems, maybe severe, maybe mild, but it will leave a scar. .


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abuse charges

Just went back and watched Sylvias link, I saw the Dr Phil clip, was not even aware of the Matt Lauer interview..Just thought it looked like attachment disorder, had no idea that this woman did in fact adopt from Russia, where these adoptees are among the most challenging to deal with...I havent changed my opinion at all. As a mom , it was torture to watch, and its a perfect way to raise a violent bully. Personally, I feel Russian adoptees should be evaluated often, and if found to have attachment disorder, professional stratagies to cope....


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

They are raised in huge orphanages in Russia, and it causes attachment disorders.

Many people are unprepared to neither adopt nor have biokids. They don't know what they are up to and then they are too frustrated to control themselves. They think if they are very punitive and strict with kids, they will fix all probelms and raise good adults. It does not work this way.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

"This boy will not grow up to be entitled , he ll wind up taking out his childhood trauma beating up someone half to death in an alley some where, someday....

yes dotz, no guarantee this kid will grow to be a criminal or crazy, but the chances are high that he will. There is a very direct link between abusive parenting and either criminal future or serious emotional disturbance. Very direct correlation. And yes they develop attachment disorders. "

I hope that you are not saying that adults who were abused as children are almost certainly irreparably damaged and inherently flawed? That's pretty insulting, and implies that adults who were lucky enough to have had idyllic childhoods are somehow "better" than adults who had abusive childhoods.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

Thank you Mattie. You said exactly what I was trying to say. I know so many people who had very strict parents, some would call it abuse on this forum... but they are productive, wonderful, caring adults.

And I know, and know of, many adults who had fabulous parents and grew up rotten.

I'm not advocating abuse. I think this woman could have chosen a better method. But wasn't that the point? Wasn't she asking Dr. Phil for help? Didn't she say she felt out of control?? When parents go for help should they be punished and ostracized? Where does a parent go for help without being criticized?

I know from my experience on this board there's a 50/50 chance I will be raked across the coals for my parenting. Everyone thinks their method is better. Everyone thinks the next person is too strict or too forgiving. There is no RIGHT way. It's all individually subjective. What's right for my child may not be right for your child.

A good example of this would be religion. Some think that if you don't raise your child in a religion (pick one) you're damning your child to hell. Some think religion itself is abusive and damages children's psyches. I know many adults who feel they were horribly abused by being forced to be religious and grew up very conflicted.

Who is right? My cousins who were raised with "the rod" and 8 hours of church on Sundays and 4 hours on Wednesdays and very strict ideas about sexuality grew up with very different ideas on their parents. One feels abused and doesn't speak to her parents anymore. One still attends the same church as parents and thinks all is great. Who is right? They had the same experiences growing up. They're only a year apart.... Their parents were doing the best they could. They were involved, financially stable, loving parents. But one of their children thinks they are abusive.
So now what...

Many people are unprepared to neither adopt nor have biokids. They don't know what they are up to and then they are too frustrated to control themselves.

Many people??? I'd like to meet a person who is prepared to have a kid! I've never met one parent who says "yes, I know what I'm doing all the time, I'm prepared and confident and never make a mistake". Bah! We're all just muddling along the best we can. As someone said... by the time we're old enough to be confident in our parenting we're grandparents and the torch has passed on to our kids.


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Mattie

Insulting???? Where did I say I m implying lucky unbeaten children are BETTER than adults that were beaten???? I have no words for where on earth you came to this conclusion...Of Course every abused child wont abuse..Odds are high they will..First of all we were discussing hot sauce and cold water baths, not the abuse of being beaten...And the child who was abused by hot sauce and cold water baths probably will be hard pressed out in the RW to have these items on hand when his anger gets out of control and he wants to take it out on the world at large, hence the beating scenario in the alley....I was abused and everday of my life, I try to keep my anger in check..Anger I do attribute to childhood...Anger that makes me know NO child should be hot sauced or force fed or bathed ....I know in my heart its wrong..Why take the chance when you are not correcting the child, you are fueling rage??? It is my opinion,as I said Wrong wrong wrong... JUST. DONT. DO. IT.


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Disclaimer

By no means should any single person on this board take anything I say as a personal critque of their parenting... I am not thinking of any examples of any individual on this board and inplying they are a bad parent, never crossed my mind...Only this Dr Phil beast of a woman....


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

mattie I never said that people who weren't abused are better than abused population, of course not. How is it child's fault when a child is a victim here?

Abused people have higher chance of being emotionally disturbed, it does not make them worse or better at all.

I myself was not abused or mistreated and never would harm a child, but I have many years of experience with disturbed population. Of course theoretically some abused people could grow emotionally healthy but would you want to experiement with that? I don't.

I do agree that different styles of parenting and sometimes there is no right answer, but abuse is never OK and abusive stype of parenting is not a parenting method: it is blowing off steam and releasing your own anger and your own issues. It is not OK.

it might appear that it works with your kid, sure kid would stop doing whatever they were doing if you spank, slap, humiliate, shove stuff in their mouth or break their spirit some other strange way.

what is your parenting goal? To raise them emotionally healthy prodictuve adults or make them to shut up right that same second because they annoy you or because you are unable to control yourself or don't know hwo to teach them or don't want to get to the bottom of your children's disturbing behavior? What is the priority here? Is it really a parenting goal to shut them up?

I udnerstand that all of us make mistakes, but why defending abuse as a parenting method? It seems strange that people are willing to argue defending abusive parenting, really. Why?

And deep inside hopefully unless someone is completelly dumb, people know that what they do is wrong but either don't know any better or cannot control themsleves, so then why nto learn, why not discover better methdos, why not take a class, why not see a therapist to deal with their own issues, why not love your children enough to hold your anger back.

and just because you know relatives or friends who were beaten or punished some other bizarre way but are productive adults, it does not mean you need to make these experiments on your child hoping he/she will grow up OK. please just stop.

My heart goes to you dotz, no child should endure this.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

I have a confession. My daughter was throwing a holy terror of a fit one day. She was five. Red face, screaming....would not stop.

So I filled a glass of water and very calmly dumped it over her head.

She stopped screaming.

I did not plan it. I went on autopilot. I have never done it again. It was very effective.

I have done things as a parent that I regret. This is not one of them but there are things I wish I could take back that did not work very well.

This woman was asking for help, was she not? Wasn't that the point of her sending the video to Dr. Phil?

Haven't we all done "beastly" things that we regret? How is vilifying this mother helpful? Is everyone such a perfect parent that we've not done anything wrong? Has anyone here adopted a child from out of the country? Can anyone imagine how difficult it would be? She was calling out for help and is being punished for her cry. Why did she feel Dr. Phil was the best place to go for help... why aren't there really clear, basic support systems for people who have adopted?

The truth is there aren't tons of fabulous parents just waiting to adopt. There are a lot of human parents who spend tons of time and money to adopt and sometimes get in over their heads. And we don't support them. Think of how critical everyone here is about other people's parenting skills.

I think the worst part of this scenario is that she was punishing while she was angry and at her wits end. Were she calm I don't think it would have progressed like this. Anger management training should be a prerequisite to getting a child-rearing license...


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

I think we can all agree on some things. First, that children sometimes need to be punished or disciplined. Secondly, that some "punishments" are obviously abuse and/or torture; sticking a child's hand in boiling water or killing the family pet as a "punishment" is (obviously) never appropriate.

But where the line between a valid, if extreme, punishment blurs into physical or emotional abuse is I guess what is in question. If a child is sent out to weed the garden in the middle of summer, is it abuse or punishment? If a child is made to kneel for fifteen minutes and say Hail Mary's as penance is it abuse or punishment? Both are certainly physically uncomfortable. If a parent tells a child that "Jesus is sad when you tell lies" or "When you are mean to your sister it makes her feel really upset and she cried", is it emotional abuse? The parent is deliberately making the child feel badly about what they did. If the parent says "Mommy cried so hard she threw up because she was sad that you didn't finish your peas at dinner" that's obviously (to me, anyway) completely inappropriate, but it's the same thing.... it's just a matter of degree.

Most of the adults I know who were spanked, had mouths washed out with soap, etc. as kids and ended up fine also had parents who did spend a great deal of time with them, who loved them, and who supervised them, who played with them.

It does not have to be mutually exclusive. If the parents are ignoring the child almost completely, and only speaking to them to reprimand them, I don't think it matters how mild their punishment may be - the kid is going to grow up with some serious issues. At the same time, I believe that if the parents praise the child for doing well, spend a great deal of time doing happy family things, and that child knows that they are loved - and also knows what punishments they are going to incur for various infractions, they are probably not going to grow up to be serial killers, even if said punishments are more severe than those other kids may get.

Because of BM, SS hates to be ignored; completely, absolutely hates it. If DH and I were to give him a choice of hot sauce or being not spoken to for a day, I have no doubt he'd choose hot sauce hands-down (not that either one is a punishment for him). Some kids would either welcome a day of not having anyone in the family speak to them, or would view it as a minor penalty and no big deal. It depends on the child, on the family, on the entire situation.

That is my opinion; I'm never going to say hot saucing a child is always a great punishment - but I'm not going to say it never is either. Like so many other things in life, it just depends - there are rarely one size fits all answers.


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Silver

I doubt there is one parent here that doesnt regret a flash of anger...This woman is being villified because she s a criminal, she has been charged with misdemeanor child abuse..The other children have not been removed as of yet, but I m thinking they will be until she gets help..The problem is she has a pattern of abuse, this was not a one time flash of anger.. I believe the offense of this poor kid was, as I heard him screaming in the shower was, yes I took 3 cards...THAT little episode, playing a game unfairly , OMG I hope he never has a sceaming fit..What kind of mayhem would she commit on him for a graver offense?


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RE: punishment

"and just because you know relatives or friends who were beaten or punished some other bizarre way but are productive adults, it does not mean you need to make these experiments on your child hoping he/she will grow up OK. please just stop."

I assume you were talking to me PO1. If you were, you missed my point, which was that two kids came out of the same situation with very different opinions. If you were to meet the family you would never think they were abusive. Yes, they were spanked "spare the rod" and all that. They were raised very religious. One child thinks they had a great childhood, the other thinks they were abused. Who is right? They both are.

My daughter is not abused whatsoever. But I am not a perfect parent and I'm sure she'll grow up and think I could have done things different/better. And hopefully she'll learn from that and be a better parent than I was.

"it might appear that it works with your kid, sure kid would stop doing whatever they were doing if you spank, slap, humiliate, shove stuff in their mouth or break their spirit some other strange way.

what is your parenting goal? To raise them emotionally healthy prodictuve adults or make them to shut up right that same second because they annoy you or because you are unable to control yourself or don't know hwo to teach them or don't want to get to the bottom of your children's disturbing behavior? What is the priority here? Is it really a parenting goal to shut them up?"

You're correlating all spanking with a loss of control, a desire to "shut up" the child, hitting out of anger or frustration, etc. That is not always the case.

I don't advocate spanking, but I am not anti-spanking either. My goal is to raise an emotionally healthy, physically fit, friendly, compassionate person who is capable. I am doing that by being as open with her as possible. When she does something I don't like, I explain myself and why, rather than "because I said so".

But sometimes, that does not work. Sometimes I have talked myself blue in the face. Once we were in a parking lot, there were a lot of cars, and she was 7 years old. She has NEVER misbehaved in a parking lot before, she has always been so good and cautious. But this day she was in a tizzy and deliberately endangered herself. I reached down and smacked her bottom and reiterated how dangerous parking lots are. Then I told her why I spanked her. And we talked about it.

You may not think I did the right thing. But I feel I did an appropriate response for the situation.

All parents experiment. There is no tried and true parenting manual (or I would buy it!) We all try to find things that work. My sister could care less if her bike was taken away while I would be devastated. If my mom took away reading and bikes I would stop misbehaving in an instant. My sister wouldn't. So parenting us the same would be ineffective. Hence experimenting to find what works.


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Cards

"I believe the offense of this poor kid was, as I heard him screaming in the shower was, yes I took 3 cards...THAT little episode, playing a game unfairly"

Apparently it was for getting three infractions cards at school, according to ABC. And, as of now, none of the children have been removed from the home. Apparently the Russian consulate has toured the home and says that none of the children should be removed.

BTW, one of her other previously tried punishments was to have him do jumping jacks - I guess "tiring him out" wasn't working for her.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

"The truth is there aren't tons of fabulous parents just waiting to adopt. There are a lot of human parents who spend tons of time and money to adopt and sometimes get in over their heads. And we don't support them. Think of how critical everyone here is about other people's parenting skills."

That reminds me of the saying "It takes a village to raise a child", however in today's society, most people are looking out for #1... taking care of their own & being critical of others, instead of offering support. That won't change until people change the way they think... that THEIR way is the 'right' way or 'best' because they are doing what THEY think they should & are not open to the fact that everyone is different. Parenting is an art & every child is as different. AS silver pointed out, even kids that are raised in the same home, same parents, same rules, same upbringing & experiences, can have different perceptions or feelings about it. Some kids are more sensitive than others, etc.

I don't necessarily agree with this mother's method, but I don't agree that she was out of control when she administered the punishment. She calmly discussed with the boy what behavior caused him to be in trouble, he answered her & acknowledged that he knew what the punishment was. It was difficult to watch him screaming in the shower... I have had to take a cold shower (when the water heater broke) & I let out a couple of screams myself... it is not pleasant to take a cold shower & certainly didn't stay in there any longer than I had to, so forcing him to stay in there was horrible.

I agree with silver that she made the tape for a reason. She contacted Dr. Phil show for a reason. She adopted and has 6 kids for a reason & I would imagine she loves children & wants to be a good parent.... and needs help & should not be penalized for reaching out. There are lots of parents out there that do much worse than she did, hide it & the kids continue to be abused while the abuser thinks they are doing nothing wrong or use fear to keep anyone from finding out how they treat children. This mother reaches out & now may end up in jail. Personally, I think there is something wrong with that!


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RE: 3 cards

Mattie, that was so well said. I agree with you completely.

Dotz: "This woman is being villified because she s a criminal, she has been charged with misdemeanor child abuse.."

She has been charged. She has not been proven guilty. She is not a criminal. What happened to innocent until proven guilty??

The three cards was not "playing a game unfairly" it was school related. "pulling a card" means he had his card "pulled" for misbehaving three times at school that day.

Three times in one day is a lot. I agree with PO1 in this case that it should have been explored WHY he was getting in so much trouble, why he was fighting over pencils with the other little boy... etc...

My DD started the card system in Pre-K. I told her that if she got 5 green cards in a row that we'd go out for ice cream. She did. We did. I upped the ante to 10 days... 20 days... etc... giving her rewards all along. She's now in 3rd grade and has only received a yellow (warning) card twice. She's never been on red. That worked for us.

I don't think this woman handled it well. But she went on Dr. Phil to ask for help and she's being punished for that. I don't think removing her children is in their best interest based on this one example. I think she needs help, and I hope she gets it.


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Oh forgot

Put in applications for both Russian and Romanian adoptions, and after researching the attachment disorder, choose not to adopt from either place...Felt I would not be up to the task...Adopted American baby...And disagree that there are not tons of great parents out there to adopt, both Russian and American children..There are not enough babies for them..And I ve heard Russia is thinking of closing the adoption program down altogether, because of American parents that are not able to cope...This was a woman obviously not able to cope....


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RE: adoption

There are not enough "white-looking physically healthy babies", true. There are tons of kids who need adopting and not nearly enough families who are willing/able to adopt. This woman adopted the boy and his brother at age five. There are so many just in my city who need "forever families". If there were enough parents to adopt them, why do we have so many who need adopting?

American parents are unable to cope with Russian babies? Or American parents adopt young children with SEVERE issues and don't have the support system and the skills to deal with issues that would challenge a person educated in childhood attachment disorders?


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Sorry

Did not hear the 3 card was for school infractions,assummed it was a card game, but still unmoved about punishment method...Ima, Having 6 kids doesnt convince me you love children, Octomom has a boatload, I m not convinced she s a loving parent based on the number of kids she has...Some (NOT ALL) parents have a lot of kids for financial gain, not love, so I cant factor in that this woman motives...Yes, also an assumption she s guilty, because of video and professing, yes I pour hot sauce in my kids mouth... Day in court aside, If I see a video of someone shooting a person , I m going to assume they did it...Sigh, Parse away , stick together corporal punishment poster friends, song remains the same....


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

Just because she was not charged or kids weren't removed or whatever other abusive behaviors were not punished it does not make it OK. We all know bizarre cases when kids weren't removed and parents were not punished, but it does not mean we should all continue bizarre behavior.

And i do agree that number of chidlren bio or adopted does not make one a loving parent. Like animal hoarders are not necessarilly animal lovers.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

"Put in applications for both Russian and Romanian adoptions, and after researching the attachment disorder, choose not to adopt from either place...Felt I would not be up to the task...Adopted American baby..."

Interesting. That baby being your DS, who has been an adult for some time now? That strikes me as a bit curious since, to the best of my knowledge, Romania was not allowing international adoptions until 1990 or so. I must just be confused.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

I said "I would imagine she loves kids" to go through the adoption process. I didn't say it was fact or that SHE MUST LOVE KIDS. You're right, who knows what someone's motives are? I wonder why she would make a video & send it to a TV show... even if it was a cry for help. Obviously, she needs help... but if I was an overwhelmed mother (adoptive or not) and saw this woman that is reaching out for help, prosecuted & put in jail... I might think twice about letting anyone know I need help for fear of getting in trouble.


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adoption

No need to get snarky Mattie, you are indeed confused..Started considering adoption in 1981, and yes, it was in fact legal at that time..Also I am aware that the country of Romania cracked down on hasty ,unvetted , illegal adoptions 1981-82......


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

I'd imagine someone into it for the money would foster kids rather than adopt.

I wouldn't send a video to Dr. Phil if I needed help parenting, but I do go on GW for opinions so I'm not sure if that makes me more or less sane ;)

I agree with you Ima. "...if I was an overwhelmed mother (adoptive or not) and saw this woman that is reaching out for help, prosecuted & put in jail... I might think twice about letting anyone know I need help for fear of getting in trouble."

I think that's what PO1 was saying "i just want people to realize that something they think is OK could be viewed as abuse by someone else. Even if your child goes to school and says mommy gives me hot sauce as punishment and it burns, you never know, someone might call CPS."

Be careful how you parent, someone may tell on you.

Have any of you heard a child say "I'll just call CPS" to their parents? It happens. Kids call CPS because their parents punished them. Then a case is opened and once opened, rarely is shut completely.

My friend's little boy climbed out of his crib, caught his leg in the side and got a spiral fracture. Mom took him to ER immediately with his older sister, who witnessed the fall. Since spiral fractures are a potential sign of abuse they called CPS. Who took her daughter away for hours into another room and questioned her. And questioned the mom. And the dad. They had numerous home visits and the case was not closed for over six months. They even interviewed neighbors and other family members.

People may think "great"! but this woman is a school teacher. She could have been fired/laid off for this investigation of child-abuse. And this family is one of the nicest, caring, child-centered families I know. They were considered guilty until proven innocent. Even when the little boy, age two, told them what happened.

(Ironically, just 100 miles away from this incident, also in S. California, another friend also had their little boy fall down and get a spiral fracture. They also went to the ER and no one even considered calling CPS.)

CPS is not the white knight. Children should not be removed from the home unless they are in imminent danger. That is the law.

I'm of the opinion that the state should not be in our homes. The state should not raise our children. There is no "right" way to raise a child. I think it's abuse to feed children McDonald's every day (one little girl in my daughter's class has her mother bring her a full meal every day for lunch) and sodas and watch tv all the time. Yes, the child will probably grow up with a low self esteem, high chance of diabetes and reduced life span and quality of life. This may lead to depression. It's physical abuse. But I don't think the state should remove a child just because the parents are grossly uneducated in proper nutrition.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

CPS is not the reason to not abuse one's children of course. The reasons are deeper, it was just one comment that not only it is morally wrong, it is also against the law (although hard to prove).

people adopt and have bio kids for many reasons, sometimes pressure from society or from one's partner. there are abusive adoptive parents. Plenty.

Also people want to be on TV show for multiple reason, some people are hungry for attention, fame, publicity even if negative. People, who desperatelly want help, find better ways than exposing themselves on TV.

i think giving nasty stuff to a kid as a punishment is abusive but it also kind of silly, ridicilous thing to do, like letting your kid know that you are so helpless as a parent that you have to reserve to something that silly. I think it makes adult to look dumb.

"There is no "right" way to raise a child."

Maybe, but there sure are wrong ways of raising children: inflicting deliberate pain in order to punish someone you proclaim to love(not performing medical procedures or saving lives) is abusive and wrong, no matter how much someone defends it.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

Dotz. Do you know how many adopted children from the USSR came to the US between 1976 and 1981? Two. From Romania, during that same time period? Five. And every one of those children was actually adopted before they came to this country, as in, their adoptive parents actually were in either the Soviet Union or Romania to adopt them.

Since this was in the middle of the Cold War, potential adoptive parents would have had to get State Department permission to travel to either country to even "put in an application". So legal? Maybe. Extremely difficult? Definitely.

Just thought I'd mention it. Google is my friend.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

"I'm of the opinion that the state should not be in our homes."

I'd guess that your parents didn't beat the stuffing out of you, & your husband doesn't slap your head off if he's in that mood, & your daughter or son doesn't lock you in a room & forge your signature to your social security check...

Not everyone is so fortunate.


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Google Wars!!!

Ah, yes a Google war, you dont have to google what you know, or what you did...Applications were available in the US from the State Dept at that time,you are only correct in saying you would need State dept permission to travel, should you be allowed to adopt which I was informed of at the time....You were NOT required to travel there to put in an application...US State Dept Data on international adoptions is based on number of Visas issued to children being adopted from other countries by US citizens, altho TECHNICALLY the Visa tracks the immigration of the children to the US, not their adoptions......2 types of Visa, orphans adopted in their birth country, and another Visa (think its IR 4, not positive)orphans whose adoptions are finalized in the US...If anybody can slog thru this , I m sorry for you, cant believe I m even responding to someone trying to stir up controversy or trouble on something totally unrelated to the topic.. I didnt see this on TV last night and think it was me,I can remember clearly agonizing over the unfilled out papers on my dresser, would I be rejecting the chance to help a child or could I deal with a possibly very disturbed child? So just keep googling Mattie if it makes you feel better, I will not respond , seriously this is a forum, not a gang ........Geez the only reason I mentioned I got the applications was the point of my researching Romanian/Russian children and finding out how disturbed they could be, you making this about ME and lying, that is low...


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

Good grief settle down Dotz - your story DID sound a bit strange. If you post personal stuff on the internet, you should expect someone to notice it and perhaps question it.

On the topic at hand - I agree wholeheartedly with almost everything Ima said. Especially about the current epidemic of entitlement issues.

Usually I also agree with Sylvia, however, I think this matter is striking very close to home for you. You okay?


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

I don't think a child should be taken away from their parents. I think that is a very extreme measure and there's more than one way to skin the proverbial cat.

I don't know if any of you ever experienced childhood without your parents. The cost to prosecute, to remove the child, to pay for the processing of the child into the system and monitor this child and pay for their upkeep...

Ok, and now let's talk about the real issue. There's a kid who is scared and pulled out of the only life they've known. They have to learn to work within the new system, to blend in with a new family, to probably be moved from family to family if they're not a cute little baby, to being separated from brothers and sisters. And then the kid gets dumped on the street at age 18.

Consider the cost to rehabilitate the parents, give them anger management skills, maybe pay for a babysitter once a week for 18 years. That has to be a lot less expensive.

Unless the abuse is chronic and the child is in danger I don't think the child should be removed. I think the parents should have to undergo mandatory classes. Monitor the family's health.

If as a nation we agree we're going to get up in people's lives we might as well support them rather than incarcerate them.

I think the whole thing is ridiculous but I think she probably has it coming. Anyone who records something like this and goes on Dr. Phil should know she wouldn't be seen in the most flattering light. It's not the best way to ask for help, but it worked.

I do feel sorry for the little boy. Life's hard enough without being in a new country with new people when you're just a little guy. I can't imagine what he must have gone through and what he thinks of his life now. I also wonder if she has similar problems with the twin or her other children or if this is a unique interaction with this boy.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

"we as a nation" agreed", I don't think there is such a thing as we as nation in these type of cases and I don't remember agreeing to anything.

I don't think kids need to be removed if a parent spanked them once or if they gave them hot sauce once (although I don't see why would people do it once?) but abuse is usually not "once", it is consistent, sometimes small little things here and there combination of putting them down, sometimes punish, sometimes not, it all adds to a damage.

Sure, we should force parents to go to therapy, and take classes but sometimes removal is the best, and it does not have to be permanent removal. It could be visitations (supervised).

If I found my ex did any of that crap to DD, like spanked, or did hot sauce LOL or put her down some other way, I would fight tooth and nail for him not to have custody.

But too often we have no clue what's going in in the other parent's house. If you break kids spirit, they will defend abusers no matter what. It is scary.

I do know families where kids are living with grandparents just because parents could not cope, no they don't drink or do drugs, but kids are difficult and parents just could not handle it without reserving to physical punishments. I think it is much more honest to admit that and let others help you. It does nto mean that parent/parents should never see kids, but they should certainly not raise them.

If I was unable to control myself enough to not punish DD and cause her pain, I would probably ask my ex to take full custody. If there was no ex, my brother or my parents would take DD to raise full time and I would visit. Removing kids does not mean they need to go on the street, there might be someone in the family who is more capable than a parent.

Now of course subtle abuse is hard to prove. If it does not leave a mark, then parents are off the hook.

I think that woman on TV is having some issues and no matter what kind of angelic kids you give her, she would do just the same. She does not do it because that kid is difficult, she does it because she is difficult.


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my sentence

I thought some more...For putting a child in cold shower in order to punish and listen him scream and for making him to hold hot sauce in his mouth for prolonged period of time she needs to go to jail and kids need to be removed. I am absolutely adamant about it.

It is not even my kid and I was heartbroken. Anyone who is capable of listening to their OWN child scream from pain that you inflicted on them, should not have any children in the house. And yes jail sentence, maybe probation, must take place. That's my sentence.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

"Anyone who is capable of listening to their OWN child scream from pain that you inflicted on them, should not have any children in the house."

Amen.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

I'd have to say, while I don't think there is anything wrong with a swat on the behind or the back of the hand on occasion, I also found the video disturbing for a number of reasons.
It bothered me that clearly this is a regular punishment for this child- he knew what to expect. Also clearly it isn't working, because even knowing what the consequences are the boy still misbehaved.
Clearly it's also a regular punishment because Mom had a big ole bottle of hot sauce just handy there on the bathroom shelf and she made the whole process looks like a well-rehearsed action.
I also found it gobsmacking that the Mom could listen to the boy's screaming in the shower knowing she was the cause of the screaming. A child screaming in a tantrum is not the same.
From what the little boy sobbed as the reasons for his "pulling cards" it seems he has impulse control issues and this is what needs to be worked on. Hot sauce and cold showers aren't helping him to control his actions, they're just torture after the fact.
And if he was only adopted from Russia a year ago I am hugely impressed at his command of English even under duress. He must be a very bright kid.
IMO both Mom and this little boy need a lot of assistance to reprogram their patterns of behaviour- she needs it to stop using torture as a means of reinforcing her message and he needs it to curb the behaviour that gets him into trouble at school.


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Lonepiper

Are you mixing me up with some else? I didnt tell a story, it was one sentence that I didnt even think to be very personal, I got applications for Russian/Romanian adoption and choose not to return them...Just curious,why did you find that strange???? What I found STRANGE was someone questioning and googling 2 or 3 times a one sentence statement, that was in fact accurate..Had nothing to do with the topic.....


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

"she needs to stop using torture as a means of reinforcing her message"

so very true coleenoz, and the fact that she was doing it calmly in a rehearsed fashion makes it even more awful. Just because you abuse your children in a calm and collected manner does not make it less awful, in fact even more.

I think he misbehaves because he has either ADHD, or impulse control issues, or maturity problem or some forms of emotional impairment. Torturing is not going to fix him.

dotz, don't even worry about it, people think that they could find every answer searching Google. You decided against adoption of older child because you researched and found out it might be more than you can handle. Nothing strange about that. I wish more people did research on parenting their own or adoptive children before making decisions.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

I don't think she was calm but I also don't think she was out of control. Fifty years ago it was common for children to be spanked and there was less violence in children. These days we have less spanking but kids are bringing guns to school and shooting up their classmates. Children today are MORE violent. Is there a correlation? I don't know. But if spanking were directly tied to childhood violence there would be a decrease in violent behavior, not an increase.

I don't understand this comment:

"Just because you abuse your children in a calm and collected manner does not make it less awful, in fact even more."

If you are spanking your child in anger, if you are out of control, if you are not calm it is much more awful. If she were screaming and shaking and holding him down this situation would be much more horrifying, no? She wasn't calm, but she wasn't out of control either. She seemed very frustrated and at her wits end, which is what she was telling the Dr. Phil show..."I don't know what do do, please help me".

I also think the "screaming in pain" was due to the cold shower not the hot sauce. My daughter screamed similarly when I had to give her a cold shower to bring down her fever the other night. Dr. recommended. I felt awful, but it was necessary.

"In a longitudinal study of 168 white, middle-class families, Diana Baumrind and Elizabeth Owens, psychologists at the University of California, Berkeley, found that occasional mild spanking does not harm a child's social and emotional development.

Similarly, after reviewing 38 studies of spanking, Robert Larzelere, a psychologist at the University of Nebraska Medical Center, concluded that in children under 7, nonabusive spanking reduced misbehavior without harmful effects. Not only does spanking work, Larzelere says, but it also reinforces milder forms of discipline, so that children are more apt to respond without spanking the next time.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

abuse is abuse, if you beat your child up in a calm and collected rehearsed manner or you do it in anger, it is no less abusive, it hurts children emotionally and physically just the same, and you are charged with abuse just the same. Maybe it makes abuser feel better "I wasn't angry" but bottom line is just the same.

I think it is very naive comparing medical necessity and punishment. Those are completely different things. I am not sure why you are confusing two completely different things, do you not see the difference? Seems pretty simple. That woman was not trying to bring fever down, she was punishing. You said your kid screamed because you had to bring fever down, that was medical necessity. I hope you don't do it for other reasons. Sometimes medical life-saving procedures hurt, but they are nothing to do with punishment. DD used to scream in dentist office however she wasn't taken there to be punished.

I do agree that poor boy did not scream due to the hot sauce, he is told to keep it in his mouth and not swallow or spit out, he couldn't scream. And just because he didn't scream, it does not make it less abusive. Eventually children get used to pain emotional and physical.

I understand you think spanking and other forms of physical punishment are OK and I do understand that you can find sources on the Internet that support your view points. It is not difficult to find. I am not sure silvers why are you so actively defending physical punishment. You seem the most active defender of physical punishment on this forum. You even defend this woman on TV, and she clearly tortures her kid. Ouch.

"non-abusive" spanking? lOL not funny but couldn't help laughing.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

Who is saying to beat your child up??? You're way off track there PO1. NO ONE HERE is saying it's ok to BEAT a child. No one.

I'm saying the kid was screaming because the water was cold, not because it hurt, not because he was in pain. Everyone is saying he was screaming in pain.

He wasn't.

Do you see the difference? If someone heard your DD in the dentist chair screaming they might be very concerned. Why are you allowing your child to scream in the dentist office? It's very frightening for a child to have someone work on their mouth, plus screaming is disrespectful to the doctor and the other patients (who also may be afraid and her screaming would only make them more scared). I would never allow my child to scream in an office - we would leave until she is calm. I worked for years with my dd as a toddler and up to get her comfortable with the dentist.

If the hot sauce hurt, he would scream. He is too little to not scream if something hurts. I highly doubt that hot sauce was on the extreme end of the hot sauce spectrum.

I'm not defending this woman on TV and I never had. Show me where I defended her actions and said they were the right thing to do....

That's right. You can't. Accusing someone of doing something they didn't. Ouch.

I'm saying I do not think going to jail is the best option for this family. I've said that over and over again while people, like you, are ready to hang her before her trial. She has five, six kids? I think she needs help with anger management and with constructive discipline.

I never said I thought what she did was right, or effective, or should be condoned.

IMO, allowing a child to scream in the dentist office is torturing the child and can lead to severe consequences in the future. I have a friend who is only able to go to the dentists if she is sedated and still she cries and has to take breaks and has neglected her teeth out of fear because her parents forced her into the dentists chair.

Nearly 75% of all people have a mild to severe dental phobia. Direct experience is the most common reason for dental phobia. It can leave a post-traumatic stress disorder type of phobia in some cases.

Now, I'm sure your daughter wasn't psychologically or physically tortured by you taking her to the dentist, right?
But do you see how words can be twisted?

And yes, there is such thing as non-abusive spanking. I really don't see how you could listen to your daughter screaming in the dentist chair (in pain? in fear? what was going on there that she was screaming? and this happened more than once?). I could never listen to my child scream like that. How horrifying! She may not have been being punished but she must have wanted you to rescue her and instead you just left her with a terrifying man and terrifying tools.

Who could do that to a child?

Let me just say that I'm sure you weren't abusing your child. But this is something I would NEVER do... I would do anything to keep my daughter from screaming in fear/pain/for any reason in a physicians office. I cannot imagine how traumatic this would have been for her and I can't believe you could stand by and listen. It sounds very callous to me.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

Silvers, I am not sure if you are being naive again or deliberatelly pretend not understanding the difference between punishing children for bad behavior/grades and medically neccessary life-saving procedures.

I think physical punishment and humiliation is wrong, you disagree. Well it is between you and your concious and G_d if you believe in one. I can't change anything about your standards, I do not know you in real life. But I know I made you think. And it is good enough for me. I hope for the best.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

I believe that I understand Silver's point; one may certainly feel that it is always wrong to physically punish a child. But one may also believe that it is always wrong to needlessly allow a child to suffer, medical procedure or not.

I cannot believe that it is a common occurrence for life-threatening emergencies, where seconds count, to be handled in the dentist's office. And if a situation is not a life-threatening emergency, and a child is either that sensitive to pain or that frightened of the dentist, there are many other ways to handle the situation than to force a screaming, terrified child into a chair and begin dental work.

You see, I believe that in a non-emergency medical situation, if a child is allowed to remain screaming in pain and/or fear, they are being punished. They are being punished by the parent for their lack of tolerance to pain, for their fear; they are being taught to "get over it".

Children who are taught that their fears and pains are inconsequential almost always grow up to be ax-murderers and serial killers. Their parents are all child abusers and should rot in jail. I've decided so.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

I'm beginning to wonder if ya'll have found modern dentist. Yeah, I recall 40 plus years ago when the experience was tolerable but not all that pleasant...but sheesh, no terrifying men nor tools that should send children screaming in fear or pain. Maybe you all need to look into a more efficient dentist with more advancement in procedures.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

"I think physical punishment and humiliation is wrong, you disagree. "

That statement is untrue. I absolutely do not think purposeful humiliation is an effective form of discipline. I also do not believe physical (that causes pain) punishment is necessary 99% of the time.

And I am not being naive. I understand a medically necessary life-saving procedure, and were your daughter's trips to the dentist in that category of emergency I would support holding her down and letting her scream to save her life.

But somehow I don't think that was what was happening.

In other words, I think you just told us that you let your daughter scream in fright/pain at the dentists office. And it sounds like you did it regularly.

I would never do this. I don't know anyone who would do this.

However; my daughter did have a medically necessary painful situation when she was young and I held her little legs and cried with her while the doctor performed what was necessary. (I've also cried with her when she got her shots) It was horrible.

I cannot imagine what kind of abusive parent would take their child to a place where their body would be touched without their permission and they would be so frightened/in so much pain that they are SCREAMING. And to know their parent is allowing this to happen, is not protecting them, is not saving them...

Well. Compared to me saying to my daughter "We've discussed this, you didn't listen, we've tried talking, and time outs and ___________, you know that what happens next is you're going to get a spanking" and then whacking her bottom a couple of times, and then reiterating why her behaviors were not acceptable...

One is disciplining. The child understands what is happening and why. I always tell her I love her, but that her behavior is unacceptable. We always have hugs, and kisses, and loves. She KNOWS she is loved. She KNOWS there will be consequences.

The other is torture. They are alone, they are screaming, they are frightened, they are in pain.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

I can't take it anymore...almost every argument/discussion above relates to physical abuse. Did NOBODY else see the extreme verbal abuse that was heaped on this child? Not the basic "you were bad"....I'm talking about when she said, (and I'm paraphrasing because I just couldn't watch it again), "If you want to live in MY HOUSE....blah blah blah...MY HOUSE...blah blah blah...." This child is not even considered a member of the family, and it is made clear to him every time he is "bad", and likely even when he isn't. MY HOUSE MY HOUSE MY HOUSE. In addition to the physical abuse, this child is being told he is a guest living in that b*tch's house, who'd better toe the line, or he's getting tortured or eventually getting the boot.

And yes, it IS physical abuse. It was not a small amount of hot sauce, and she made him hold it while she berates him, then it's not enough for her, so she throws him in a cold shower. I'm not against a swat on the butt when needed, but do you do the swat and then follow it up with another type of physical punishment? I don't know any parent that does that. And as someone else noted, this is a regular thing. The hot sauce appears stored in the bathroom, and he knew exactly what was going to happen with the sauce and the shower. The kid might have some severe issues, but what is on that video is not how you help or deal with a child that might have such problems. It is sick and abusive, and I suspect she enjoys it on some level.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

Exactly, weed30. Reading the 'debate' back and forth, all I can think was : what if YOUR husband, BF, SO whatever the case may be, came home and found you had lied about how much you said you spent? Over browned his garlic bread for dinner?

This person then grabs the bottle of hot sauce, pours it down your throat and tosses you into a cold shower. EVERYONE here would would screaming 'your DH is an abusive $^&$^#, leave him, divorce him blah blah blah.

But this is just your kid, right. Yours to do and discipline as you see fit?


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

My DD never screamed of pain, I never said I let her scream of pain, in fact I never said she screamed of pain, i never said she was alone???? Silvers you are grasping here at straws trying to defend yourself, what for? i don't know you in real life so whatever you do with your kid is on you. By equating medical procedures with punishment you are trying to justify yourself.

DD was always calmed down and explained what's going to happen, then she peacefully followed with whatever and procesure was adjusted, she never scramed of pain, who nowadays screams of pain in dental office, with anesthesia, and whatever other pain medicine is administered? Do they do medical procedures without killing the pain first???Where? I said "in dental office", I never said of pain, i also never said "screamed for any prolonged period of time", i also never said "she was alone in any office' or G_d forbid someone touched her "without my permission", she actually sat on my (or daddy's lap) lap and calmed down. She screamed when she saw a dentis in his office, however she was calmed down by mommy or daddy or both (we actually sometimes went together to medical procedures even after divorce) and explained what was going to happen and how there will eb no pian, and she was calmed down and of course there was no pain, and she was happy as a clam in few minutes.

Quite different from "and now your loving mommy is going to peacefully administer spanking and hot sauce because you were bad: open your mouth and bend over". It is naive not to see the difference.

And you are trying to justify abuse all the time: "he was nto screaming of pain, just that the water was cold", "hot sauce isn't that bad, he isn't even screaming", "here are the Internet sources showing how spanking is good", "here statistics showing how spanking is good", "if mommy is not angry and explains how she si going to punsh kids, then it is OK', "she has 6 kids" etc

If you just being defensive because you take things personally and like to argue, then i don't care but if you trully believe what you say then i am concerned for children in your life. But again i do not know you in real life, so it is on you.


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I also

Think this abuse will effect all the other children in the house too..Seeing this must terrify them and they are probably living in fear of breaking the rules everyday of their lives too. And sometimes seeing a loved brother or sister being abused, may make them feel as bad as being abused themselves....Has to be damaging them too...


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exactly!

exactly
like weed said "abusive and sick". And exactly, not only it is physical abuse but it is verbal on top of it! So is verbal abuse OK? I don't think so.

and I agree with justmetoo I would like to see how abusive women would like their husbands spanking them, shoving hot sauce in their mouth and throwing them in a cold shower because they were "bad". Unless someone is into S and M stuff (maybe abusive parenst are?), they wouldn't like it and probably press charges yet it is OK to do it to minor children. You can raise your kids the way you see fit.... Really? At least in case of absuive husband a woman can leave, a kid can't.

Yes I noticed that she appeared enjoying torturing her kid. I do think that abusive parents enjoy punishing because it gives them sense of control and power that they might lack in other areas of their life.

I was listening on the radio this morning that my state has increased number of abuse and neglect of children, I would think because people, who are already disturbed and having anger issues, are having such hard time with lack of control over their own lives: high unemployment, houses don't sell, foreclosure etc that they get that control back by letting steam out on their own chidlren.

I agree with dotz, other kids might be well-behaved because they see what's hapening to their brother. Yes, it must be horrible to observe someone being abused, especially your own sibling. I am heratbrtoken to hear of kids being abused and I don't even know them!

Unfortunatelly it is not that uncommon and too much of this hapens behind closed doors and we will never know about.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

There was a "baby in the closet" here a number of years ago;
the mother had given birth & kept the little girl at *her* mother's insistance & then had fallen off the radar.

A neighbor called the police, who found the malnourished child in a filthy closet.

At first, they thought she was about three years old
she was seven.

She never had seen the sun, & she thought the grass was "biting" her bare feet when they led her to the car.

The other, older children led "normal" lives, were fed at the table, were adequately clothed, went to school, & never mentioned "the girl" (no one in the family called her by an actual name).

The other children were removed from the house & placed in foster care & given counselling.

The explanation was that the other children in a home where one child was scapegoated & abused were told that the victim was "bad", that s/he deserved it, etc.

In the minds of the children, this means that they either believe that the other child is bad & deserves the horrific abuse, or they believe that they might get the same treatment.

The effect is that the other children often grow up to be very judgmental & punishing & often become abusers themselves.


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sylvia

"The effect is that the other children often grow up to be very judgmental & punishing & often become abusers themselves."

Yes, watching abuse would do a lot of damage to a child. Some would become abusers themselves or grow up uneahlthy otherwise. I also have hard time imagining having any healthy relationship with such a parent. I would think emotionally and physically abused chidlren (or the ones that observe abuse of their siblings) don't want to do much with their parents when they grow up. Although sometimes abused kids are attached to their abusers. Sad, just sad.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

It is absolutely ridiculous to equate children and spouses in scenarios of punishments. If I came onto this site and said that DH had listed chores which I had to do, and I had neglected to clean the house, so I was being punished by DH by not being allowed to talk to friends or leave the house outside of work for a week, I doubt that there is a person here who would not tell me to leave him. But nobody is saying it is abuse for a child to be grounded for not doing his chores. What's the difference?

And no one has answered my hypothetical questions above - Is it abuse to punish a child by having them weed the garden in hot weather? Or to attend a church which requires them to kneel while saying penance?

Or can you not answer those because they are too vague - it's abuse if a child is out in the sun in 110 degree heat with high humidity, but not if it's 90 and dry? It's not abuse if a child kneels for three minutes saying prayers but not for three hours? But you can spout off that any spanking, a swat on the behind or a beating with a two by four, is abuse - or that a "cold" shower, whether cold meant ice-cold with no hot water, or 80 degrees, was physical assault and parents are criminals - and anyone who says Whoa, step back and don't rush to judgment without knowing all of the facts, is also a child abuser.

Disgusting.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

Well, you can think it's as 'ridiculous' as you please. I'm sure you're aware that it is not uncommon for repeative abuse cycles.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

Doesn't feel good when someone twists it on you does it PO1?

I'm not grasping at straws to defend myself, nor am I equating medical procedures with punishment. I was simply holding up a mirror.

People are saying this little boy is screaming in pain. I disagree. I am not trying to justify abuse. Please show me where I said it was OK that she did what she did, or STOP accusing me. It's getting old.

I am saying this mother needs help. I do not think she belongs in jail. I do not think that is the best outcome for her children.

The hot sauce could not have been that hot, or it would have come out of his mouth, voluntarily or involuntarily. That's my opinion and my experience with children who get something in their mouth that is hot or that they don't like. It comes out.

"i don't know you in real life so whatever you do with your kid is on you. "

With due respect PO1 even if you did know me in real life whatever I do with my child is "on me". Here's the thing. You're not going to help me feed her, clothe her, house her, educate her, love her or discipline her. I am. I had her on purpose, deliberately and I intend to raise her to the best of my ability.

That's kind of how it works. I do what I think is best and the results are my responsibility (for the most part... nature vs nurture and all that). I take my job very seriously. Just because you disagree with my methods does not mean your parenting style is more effective or better. It's just different, therefore your faux concern and libelous comments are grating and inappropriate.

I do believe what I am saying and I do stand by my assertion that there can be non abusive spanking. There also can be non abusive yelling and non abusive discipline.


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RE: Mattie

And Mattie, yours is the voice of reason. Thank you.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

"Reading the 'debate' back and forth, all I can think was : what if YOUR husband, BF, SO whatever the case may be, came home and found you had lied about how much you said you spent? Over browned his garlic bread for dinner?

This person then grabs the bottle of hot sauce, pours it down your throat and tosses you into a cold shower. EVERYONE here would would screaming 'your DH is an abusive $^&$^#, leave him, divorce him blah blah blah.

But this is just your kid, right. Yours to do and discipline as you see fit?"

And what if MY DH came home and made meat loaf for dinner, and I didn't like it, and asked to have mac and cheese instead? And DH not only said no, but then would not allow me to eat dessert afterward for not finishing my meal!

Or if I slammed the screen door when I came inside and DH made me go back out and shut it properly ten times in a row?

Or for that matter, if DH was forcing me to go to college, and I didn't want to - but when I tried to drop out DH started driving me there and walking me inside?!

With the exceptions of prison, the military and possibly organized crime, adults do not punish other adults. EVER. So to compare punishing a child to doing the same thing to an adult spouse is ridiculous. Yes, I understand the cycle of abuse - but please tell me one actual punishment (not a talking-to) that a responsible, non-abusive parent might use, that would also be acceptable for one spouse to do to another.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

OMG. Your husband doesn't let you have dessert either??

My husband didn't take his laundry out to the laundry room yesterday as I asked him to so I gave his clothes away to another guy who would appreciate them.

Then I was taking a really long shower and he reminded me that he's told me not to waste water and since I haven't been listening he brought a timer into the bathroom that would ring when my allotted time was up. If my hair is soapy, too bad, he said... I should have managed my time better and I'll know better next time. Then he did let me rinse it out and I was grateful... I sure learned my lesson!

After my shower I have to admit he was micromanaging how I was cutting onions for dinner and when I told him "you're not the boss of me" he put me in the corner for 32 minutes (one minute for every year is the standard in our house).

I think my time out was also because I had been acting out all day and he was tired. The real kicker came when I went grocery shopping after work yesterday and didn't tell him that I was making a stop before coming home. That's a pretty big offense in our household so I'm grounded for the next few days and can't go to the gym with my friends tomorrow. They understand though, because the same thing happens to them.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

Glad you ladies think it is funny. I said nothing about being 'responisble' nor 'acceptable'. You seem to be having a problem looking over your own backyard fences and seeing into the real lifes of very different households. Certain adults do punish adults. Physical and psychological abuse knows no boundaries (adult/child) when it comes to the minds of affected persons.

Seriously. Maybe the two of you would like to visit abuse centers and listen to real life stories of both the abused and the abusers.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

Justme, I am quite aware there is spousal abuse and child abuse. I am aware that some child abusers are also spouse abusers and vice versa. I have been to women & children shelters. I have also gone to college and taken women's studies courses. I have had friends in abusive relationships and I have known children in abusive households.

I don't find ABUSE amusing, I find the postulations about abuse amusing and I highlighted the absurdity in the arguments posted above as a result.

I would go so far as to say that MOST of the time children are attached to their (parental) abusers and the separation can be as damaging as the abuse was. That's why I advocate re-training/assistance for parents rather than jail time/foster families except in extreme cases.

My mother used to tell me all the time that if I wanted to live in her house I had to abide by her rules. I think this is common for parents to say. The only reason this is rubbing people wrong is because the child is adopted.

Mattie has a genuine point. There is no situation in which "punishing" or "disciplining" a child would be applicable to an adult so the argument is ridiculous. The main points here, as far as I can tell are as follows:

1. The mother felt "out of control" (her words) and had her child tape her disciplining another child to send to Dr. Phil.

2. Dr. Phil either didn't think it was abusive or just didn't care because he presumably had the tape for a while and it was viewed by many people before it was compiled with the rest for his show.

3. People called in to report the abuse. An investigation was launched. The home was inspected by the US government officials and the Russian officials and the children were not found to be in danger and were not removed from the home.

4. She was brought up on child abuse charges and plead not guilty.

The question here is of guilt. Did her parenting leave lasting psychological or mental scars on this child?

My answer? I don't know. I don't have enough evidence. I don't think she was making good choices, I think she needs parenting classes, I think adopting from another country, especially an older child can be a very intense experience and she needs support to raise this child.

I strongly feel the best outcome would be for her to receive help and for the family to be supported. This is not a parent with substance abuse issues. This is not an issue of neglect. This is an issue of being at wits end and making bad choices.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

I will find humor in whatever the hell I choose to. Perhaps I may remind you that my dear SS8 has been "punished" by being screamed at, by being locked in a closet, by being not fed, by being called stupid, by being called a brat, by being threatened to be abandoned, by being physically struck - and there's nothing that we can do about it until court, and nothing we can do to unring that bell. None of that was a pre-defined punishment, all of it was in anger and without warning. If you recall, one time SS was spanked for not hugging his mother.

We do not even raise our voices towards SS, let alone raise a hand to him, because of his anxiety. Our lives revolve around his counselor's appointments, his medical appointments, attorney's visits, court appointments, spending happy time with him and working to pay the bills for all of these.

But according to many of the posters, apparently we should just write him off now, because too much damage has been done to him already...

"he ll wind up taking out his childhood trauma beating up someone half to death in an alley some where, someday...

There is a very direct link between abusive parenting and either criminal future or serious emotional disturbance. Very direct correlation...

its a perfect way to raise a violent bully...

Of Course every abused child wont abuse..Odds are high they will...

Of course theoretically some abused people could grow emotionally healthy but would you want to experiement with that? I don't."

HOW DARE YOU presume to sit back and casually pass sentence upon my eight year old step-son, and just blithely say that odds are that he'll be a criminal, emotionally disturbed, an abuser himself? How dare you presume anything whatsoever about DH's or my (step)parenting? How dare you assume anything about my familiarity with abuse, or how seriously I take what I consider to be abuse?

So while you all sit and pat yourselves on the backs congratulating yourselves for the strong stand that you took, by insulting posters on the internet for disagreeing with what you have deemed to be "child abuse", I will finish work so that I can be done when SS gets home, so that I can hug him, love him, and hear about his day - because I refuse to believe that he is doomed and that there is no hope for him.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

unfortunatelly some adults do punish other adults, spousal abuse is not that uncommon, and unfortunatelly some abusive men believe it is OK to physically punish a woman for her mistakes. So it is incorrect to say that adults don't punish other adults, they sure do.

I don't find abuse funny or something to laugh about, but I'd like to see adult "abuse defenders" spanked, given hot sauce and threwn in a cold shower.

Silvers why would be holding a mirror when I neither punish nor defend abuse, you do though. Why, I don't know, I have nothing to do with it.

Now, children could be taught, explained and examples could be shown. Of course it requires a lot of patience and it is a hard work, it is much easier to just spank them or threw something at them or shove something in their mouth and enjoy their silence.

If a child does not respond to your teaching and explaining and only responds to punishment (and this sentiment was shared here: child does not respond to teaching hense needs to be punished), then either there is something wrong with your parenting or you are being unreasonable or a poor child has deeper issues and it needs to be explored. Continuing punishing them is unacceptable. And it is unacceptable to ignore consequences of such so called "parenting".


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victims

"I would go so far as to say that MOST of the time children are attached to their (parental) abusers and the separation can be as damaging as the abuse was."

It is entirelly true that victims become attached to abusers, but it is not good enough reason to keep victims and abusers together. This is a really strange comment.

If someone's child is abused by a father for example, but is attached to him, she should stay with him because of the attachment? and the mother should just say "oh let my baby stay with abuisve daddy, she is very attached and seperation is going to be hard on her". Or children shoudl onyl stay with abusive mother, but shoudl be allowed to leave therir fathers? What about sexual abuse? Where do you draw a line?

And if no one defends a child, then she has no options! As an adult you are estranged from your mother, you have that option. Children do not have that option. They don't choose to leave, they have nowhere to go and they are attached. I don't care what bizzare reasons adults have for mistreating their kids. Somebody has to protect children.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

(((Mattie)))

I strongly believe that your dedication to your stepson and your incredible drive to make him feel safe and secure while in your home is enough to establish a good sense of right and wrong and a sense of value and well being in your child.

I have known children of abuse who have grown up to be very wonderful adults and they have all said it is because there was at least one person who genuinely took an interest in them. One person is enough to break through all that horrible stuff. I believe in you and I believe in your son.


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mattie

Mattie, you are not abusing your SS, his mother does. You and DH do everything possible that he does not have to endure abuse, you tried everything possible through court system to keep SS away from BM or keep it to a minimum. His dad didn't say "oh well, let him be with abusive mommy, it is bad to take kids away from parents". He took his son away.

Both you and DH do a good job to erase horrible parenting on BM's part. And you should be commended for that.

I know neither you nor his dad would abuse SS. SS is not doomed at all because he lives in a healthy environment with his dad and you and you work hard on helping him to become a productive healthy adult. If dad gave up and allow this nighmatre to continue, then it would be entirelly different story. It is not the case though. SS lives with you and his dad. He is one lucky boy.

If my ex was abusive, I would be fighting just like your DH to keep my child safe. You both do a great job.


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parenting out of love

"We do not even raise our voices towards SS, let alone raise a hand to him"

G_d bless you for these words. SS is raised in love and I know he'll be the best he can be because you choose love.

mattie, I do have strong point of view on the subject because of children who are abused, chidlren like SS. I All I can say is that I wish there was more parents like you and your DH.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

There are different degrees of abuse. There is abusive speech.

"you're stupid"

Then there's more abusive speech.

"you're a good for nothing f-ing idiot and I wish you were never born"

There's putting a kid in a cold shower.... and there's making a kid put their hand in a scalding tub of water.

I honestly cannot believe someone would be so insipid as to correlate me saying the parents and children should stay together and get some kind of help instead of being separated for this particular instance (a cold shower and hot sauce) to jumping the tracks and assuming I mean the same for SEXUAL ABUSE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD is just plain ignorant.

For shame.

"I don't find abuse funny or something to laugh about, but I'd like to see adult "abuse defenders" spanked, given hot sauce and threwn in a cold shower."

So you believe that abuse begets more abuse and you believe this hot sauce and cold showers are abusive.

I have said over and over again that I think counselling and assistance to retrain the mother and give her effective skills is my solution to this issue. Despite that, you continue to falsely assert that I support abusive behavior.

Yet what you would have happen is a bit of an eye for an eye, correct? Abuse is wrong, but to correct this abuse we should abuse the abusers?

I rest my case.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

Thank you, silversword and ParentOfOne. Apparently I needed a good cry (I wish I were sentenced to a nice long time-out). It seems like every single time I feel like I'm just cracking under the pressure, something happens to encourage me. I had forgotten today was report card day; SS came home and jumped up on me, and showed me his card - high honor roll again. SS asks why we make such a big deal when he's gotten high honor before - we tell him we will always make a big deal out of it, and will be just as proud every time.

Obviously I'm not dealing well with this topic so am going to bow out.... Thanks again.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

mattie, I am so happy SS does well in school! Yes I agree topic of child abuse and mistreatment is a tough one, it is not something to treat lightly and it is hard to deal with, and I think people who witnessed/worked with/treated abused children just can't take it lightly. I feel physically sick even thinking someone raises their hand on a child. Let alone my own child/family member. Hugs to you and SS.

And high honors is a big deal. Keep up a good work.


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makes no sense

By your logic Mattie and her DH should send SS to live full time with his mother while she is taking parenting classes and hopefully learning to be a better parent.

You just like to argue silvers. How is it eye for an eye if you said hot sauce and spanking are not abusive? If it is OK to spank children and give them hot sauce (and I don't remember if you said if a cold shower is ok) as long as you remain calm and collected, then why couldn't we do it to adults? It should be fine as well.

And if separating abusers and victims is damaging then do you think abusive parents should all get full custody and the other parent should just wash their hands off, or "no-separation" works only for intact families? Would it be OK if your own child was abused by the other parent or you would ask for custody or let your kid stay there abused while ex is taking classes? Or your "no-separation of victims and abusers" rules apply to someone else's children only?

I don't know what world you live in. I guess we have to disagree, you live in some unreal made up universe, or you just argue for the sake of it even when it stopped making any sense.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

Has anyone ever read about the Stockholm Syndrome?

Hostages often come to identify with their captors, who seem all-powerful & upon whom the hostages depend for *everything*.

It seems counter-intuitive, but they "bond" with their captors.

a one-sided "bond" to be sure, but it makes it very difficult for hostage negotiators to help them.

Paty Hearst, abused wives, & abused children often develop Stockholm Syndrome;
it's what makes it so difficult for law enforcement to help women whose husbands or boyfriends mistreat them.

Stockholm Syndrome is *not* a "relationship" to be enabled, & any victim of kidnappers, terrorists, or abusive spouses or parents must not be taken at their word when they deny hurt.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

sure, sylvia, if there is a bond between abused children and their parents it does not mean we need to preserve it. It is not a healthy bond, nto something needs to be cultivated.

I think that most people would insist on removing their own children from abusive situation, they would fight for custody and wouldn't allow others to abuse their kid, but when it is someone else's child, just a kid on someone's tape, then it is easier to look the other way.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

Sylvia, I've heard of Stockholm Syndrome and believe it to be very real.

PO1, why the heck would I say a child should move in with an abusive person full time when they have another birth parent to live with whom they already live with most of the time anyway? Mattie's SS is a completely different situation (and I am only going to bring this up once because she brought him into the conversation). He is truly being abused. He is going without food, without clean clothes, being completely neglected. Yes, his mother needs help. No, he should not be with her; not at all right now. He has a solid family.

I think it's you who likes to argue. You fabricate wild statements and attribute them to me; like "no-separation of victims and abusers". I did not say that. Go back and re-read.

You did catch me on one thing though. However did you know I live in an unreal madeup universe?


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

"I would go so far as to say that MOST of the time children are attached to their (parental) abusers and the separation can be as damaging as the abuse was."
Just a quote...nothing is made up. And then you proceeded to explain why abused chidlren should stay put. Or rather abused children of someone else. Of course children are attached to their abuser, nothing new but hardly a reason to keep them there.

If for example it was your child abused by your ex, you wouldn't advocate her to stay with abuser because she is just so attached to him or it isn't really that bad, dad just needs some help, in a meanwhile let her stay there. You wouldn't watch that tape and analyse how she screams just because water is cold, and how hot sauce is not a big deal because she isn't screaming or spitting it out and spanking is good for kids because that's what they did in old times, and kid just being difficult and dad needs help to cope and how dad is just being so calm when he punishes her. I don't think you would cold heartedly analyze how it is the best for her to stay with dad, you would want to remove her. Yet someone else's child must suck it up. He might have loving aunt or uncle or a friend who would be willing to get involved, you do not know. Yet you insist abused children must stay put. Many crimes could be prevented if people wouldn't look the other way.

For me it does not matter if it is my child, or soemone else's, such nonsense needs to stop and children need to be protected.

I think you just do not understand the issue fully or pretend not to for personal reasons, don't know. It is too bad.

But i think the thread is over. Unfortunatelly it is ntot the only case of child abuse out there.:(


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

PO1, I consider it an attack when people misrepresent my posts. I shouldn't have to keep repeating myself.

Have you any experience with foster care? If you had, you would understand my statement that separation from biological parents can be as damaging to the child as the abuse. If possible I do wholeheartedly believe children should stay with their parents rather than go into the system.

As to this little boy having an uncle or aunt or friend who is loving and willing to get involved; did you even read the story? He's adopted. From Russia. That indicates he has no "loving" family just waiting in the wings. At this point there are a few options I can see.

1. Mom is tried, convicted, sentenced. This may mean jail time (as some are advocating) or probation.

2. Adopted boys are removed from the home and either put into the American foster system or returned to Russia.

3. The whole family receives counseling and mom receives resources and skills so that she does not resort to such extremes when the child does not respond (to any of the previous tactics she has tried like jumping jacks, no tv, time outs, etc).

In this situation I stand by my statement that the mother is not guilty until charged and from what I can see she is reaching out for help. I think it should be given to her, and the situation monitored. I do not see any good coming from incarcerating this mother and breaking up this family. Not at this point.

I've known kids who truly were abused and who should have been removed from the home and their parents locked up.

But then, I think our prisons are overcrowded and jailing a mother of (5? 6?) would not be cost effective and would not produce the desired results, which is for her to be a capable, good mother to her children. Don't you think it would be better to help her rather than break up the family?

And please don't twist this again to insinuate I'm saying all abused children should stay with their abusers.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

"As to this little boy having an uncle or aunt or friend who is loving and willing to get involved; did you even read the story? He's adopted. From Russia. That indicates he has no "loving" family just waiting in the wings."

Do you even read or understand what you write? So I am not a loving aunt of my brother's adopted children? You clearly do not know anything adoption either...Sigh...really, it is pointless. I give up on educating you. Sigh...gotta go


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

PO1, why are you bringing your brother into the conversation? I'm sure you're a loving aunt. But if there were family abuse issues with your brother and his kids they most likely would not give the children to you right off the bat, even if they were biologically related to you.

The state is not going to give temporary custody of an internationally adopted child to an extended member of the adopted family. The child would most likely be returned to Russia (as he is still considered by his home country to be a Russian citizen even though he was adopted in America) or go into foster care until a proper fit was found.

"If Beagley is found guilty, there is "quite a big chance" that the twins would be sent back to Russia, according to Tony Astakhov, an assistant to Russia's Commissioner of Children's Rights.

A representative from the Russian Consulate in Seattle traveled to Anchorage to visit the Beagleys and monitor the case. Andrey Bondarev said he didn't see any reason to remove the boys from the Beagleys' home.

"From our perspective, there is no need for ejecting them from there," Bondarev said Friday.

"We hope that the court decision will reflect the truth," he said. "We will follow this to the end".

snip

"It's just frustration," Beagley tells McGraw and the audience. "I really, I don't know what to do with him. I really, truly don't, and that's why I wrote to you, that's why I'm willing to sit up here and have an audience look at me and judge me because I need help for this child. I need help for me, but I know I need help for this child."

I think if she is convicted that the Dr. Phil show should have charges brought against them as well. He is a licensed therapist. As he has stated on camera that he believes it is child abuse, why did they sit on the tape for however many weeks/months it took to produce the show? If he really thinks it is child abuse how dare he not call CPS immediately upon receipt of the video? How dare he play judge and jury, as he does here (and let us not dismiss his requirement of her allowing his show's cameras in the house):

"...it is not justifiable to default to what you’re doing, because it is child abuse,” Dr. Phil warns.

Dr. Phil says he is willing to provide psychological, medical and neurological help for Kristoff to get an accurate diagnosis of what’s going on.

“I’m willing to get you some help with your anger, and your lack of control and your lack of insight into your anger and your lack of control, provided you are willing to open your home to these therapists that they can monitor you to the point of putting cameras in that home, if necessary," he tells Jessica.

“Sure. Absolutely,” she responds.


Then he issues a warning to Jessica: “Anything short of that, Child Protective Services is going to get involved, and that child is going to be gone before dark today. Will you agree with those conditions?”

“Yes," she answers.

So, he received the video, made plans to have it on his show, brought the woman out for taping, taped the show stating his professional opinion that it was abusive and then aired the show and during that entire time leading up to the airing no one called CPS??

For just a little insight into what can happen when a mother goes to jail, check out the "falsely accused" section of the Dr. Phil show. I posted a link below. The foster system FAILED this little boy (eight different foster homes in five years, emotionally abused and he was put on Lithium) and he had a DAD and biological relatives who wanted him and were fighting to get him. Once a child is put in the system it can be difficult if not impossible to get them back out.

Here is a link that might be useful: One story


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RE: Tapatio

PS....

She was using Tapatio Hot Sauce. If you've ever tried it you'll know it's not particularly hot and is considered a "mild" hot sauce. Not even close to Tabasco.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

She was using Tapatio Hot Sauce. If you've ever tried it you'll know it's not particularly hot and is considered a "mild" hot sauce. Not even close to Tabasco.

OMG, thanks for pointing that out! I can rest easy knowing this. Can we please get the message to the child that it's "not really hot"? Surely his less developed tastebuds are betraying him, so he shouldn't mind it at all! It would probably be really good on ice cream!

The screaming that accompanies the mouthful of, c'mon..... practically sugar syrup! is OK too. It's just loud talking, really. Just to make sure he can hear it over his crying. So thoughtful!

I am now certain that the shower isn't really particularly cold, either, and he should be fine with this harmless little adjunct punishment. It's just a reminder to behave! Good Parenting 101!

And someone twice as big as him, who provides his sole support for food and shelter isn't REALLY berating him, just pointing out that continued infractions can land him out on the street. Just a reminder! Yay! Mother of the year!!!

Whew. All of this angst for nothing. As soon as he knows all of this he will realize how wonderful and supportive his life is, and how much his mother adores him.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

Wow, that's a lot of sarcasm!

Weed, he didn't scream over the hot sauce. This is what I'm arguing against in this thread. People are passing judgement based on incorrect information.

No one here is saying she did the appropriate thing for the situation. Everyone is saying she needs help and parenting skills.

The question is, should she go to jail? Is this what we do in our country with a parent who doesn't know what to do and asks for help? Her husband thought it was ok as did several members of her family.

I commented on the type of hot sauce because Justmetoo asked: "What degree of 'hot' was the sauce? (I did not watch whole video so if it was clearly shown to be something like mild I missed that part) Does opinions change of amount and time basing opinion on 'heat'? Say chili peppers mild vs habanero?"

Yes, my opinion does change on amount/timing/type of sauce and how 'abusive' the actions were. Were this a very hot sauce the degree of abuse would have gone up. Kind of like if a person yells at their kid or if they are screaming for an hour. There are degrees.

Surely his less developed tastebuds are betraying him Actually, kids have more tastebuds than adults, and they are more sensitive to sweet and bitter.

I realize there are two very distinct types of mothers commenting here.

One type says: She's a horrible parent, she is equal to a mother who would put... "...hot sauce in the eyes of a child who won't stop peeping on his sister... or the rectum of a child who messes his diaper... and she should go to jail where she should be subjected to cold showers and hot sauce in her mouth.

The other type says: Poor parenting skills, woman needs help, let's figure out how to get her the help she needs and make this family work rather than putting her in jail and sending her kids off to foster homes.

I stand my my feeling that if she is sent to jail there should be repercussions for the Dr. Phil show as well. If she should know better, he should know better.


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weed- oh no

"As soon as he knows all of this he will realize how wonderful and supportive his life is, and how much his mother adores him."

Oh my, weed, really...I missed the post about how hot sauce wasn't really that hot LOL oh, somebody really wrote that, it is just so childish, oh my. I can't believe it. Somebody actually bothered posting that sauce wasn't really hot.

please pass this info to the kid, "Can we please get the message to the child that it's "not really hot"?" and she wasn't really screaming at him, and it wasn't even mouth full of sauce, it is just that his mouth is too small, and she isn't even angry. I agree, weed, that water wasn't really that cold, it could always be colder like if you go on a frozen lake, you know.

Plus he is from Russia, you know it is cold over there (isn't Siberia there like everywhere like you know LOL), so it shouldn't even bother him, they got used to cold over there. and cold showers are good for you anyways. oh my. too silly.

isn't really funny, honestly, just so silly...Just grasping at whatever.

and the price goes to the post: "hot sauce wasn't really hot"


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

Twist away PO1.... twist away. Your comments show you don't read my posts or attempt to see where I am coming from. You'd rather fan the flames than have a coherent, adult conversation. Instead, you're right up front holding the first stone, aren't you?


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

Sure I am not without sin, who is? Yet I don't think not being perfect means I should justify child abuse or find more excuses for abusers. My boring sins don't even begin to come close to sins of child abuse or actually any abuse or mistratement of anyone, let alone family member.

If I was abuser myself, then it would probably seem somewhat logical (in a twisted way) to defend other abusers. But my priority is to defend and protect abused child, rather than find more excuses for abusive parents. Even when excuses become chidlish and silly.

Long line of excuses that at first seemed somewhat logical but then became more and more silly. First she isn't angry (OK), then sauce isn't that hot (well OK), then we are not without sin and shouldn't throw stones. What's next? (well i don't even want to know what's next excuse, whatever) It doesn't even come close to adult conversation. Just childish.

Like I said I gave up on explaining, it is all weed's fault, she found priceless post.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

I've never defended her. I've never said she was right. And I've never excused her behavior.

What is childish is not responding to questions asked but continuing to repeat the same phrases over and over along with untrue accusations.

My point is, and always has been that this mother needs help. She asked for it, she should get it. I don't think she is a criminal, and I don't think the kids should be removed from the home.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

There are plenty of ways to discipline without this type of things.

If the mother has mental issues, yes she should get help;


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

Hi kkny, haven't seen you here for awhile! Hope everything is well.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

"There is a very direct link between abusive parenting and either criminal future or serious emotional disturbance. Very direct correlation."

Correlation DOES NOT equal causation. Just because there is a strong correlation between two factors, it does not mean one thing causes the other. The factor that is importance is an analysis of risk/resilience. Are there other risk factors in this child's life besides harsh punishment from a parent, such as a bad group of friends, genetic influences, bullying at school, etc? On the flip side, what factors are there to give that child resilience? A good social support network, other quality time with parents aside from punishment?

I cannot stand it when people think that because a correlation exists between two factors it means that one causes the other - ESPECIALLY concerning criminal behavior. There are people out there who had a wonderful upbringing and turned out to be sociopaths, and then there are those that grew up in gang ridden neighborhoods and because of resilience factors got themselves out of a bad situation.

As someone who grew up in an area of affluence and has seen the "parents" who think that "parenting" is being your child's best friend, never giving them firm boundaries and not even knowing the definitions of punishment, I think that is far more detrimental to a child than "harsh" punishment. I cannot tell you how many of my peers with parents like that have shown up in our local newspapers Police Blotter for things ranging from DUI to assault.

My mother grew up in an age where it was perfectly acceptable for her father, in response to her not drinking her milk, poured her milk on her head and forced her to go to school without showering, so she smelled like rotten milk for the rest of the day. Did she ever do that to myself or my sister? No. But she also parented. A spanking when we misbehaved as children curbed bad behaviors and didn't do any sort of damage to us - in fact, I would say my sister and I turned out quite well. We were the ones with the good heads on our shoulders and the ones that other parents loved their kids to be friends with. My sister is 25 and successful and I'm starting a graduate program at 20. But I digress. My point is, punishment is on a continuum. Harsh punishment doesn't cause someone to turn out to be a criminal, neither does lax punishment. There are a variety of factors at work that contribute to how people turn out and hot sauce in the mouth or a cold shower, while quite harsh and not fun, may be what this child requires and it doesn't mean his parent is awful and he's going to turn out to be a serial killer


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

A lot of what I posted above was meant for Mattie. You are a FANTASTIC stepmom, and I truly hope you don't believe any of this s**t that because your SS may have an abusive mother, that he will just turn out a "rotten apple". You and your DH are the prime examples of a resilience factor. You make sure your SS has what he needs in regards to school, clothes, food, and most importantly, LOVE! That little boy knows how much you two love him and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that a close social support system is the NUMBER ONE resilience factor for children


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

Most certainly emotionally or/and psychically abused children can and many will grow into healthy productive adults. Especially children like mattie's SS who are not raised by abusive parent but rather by non-abusive/non-punitive parents and luckily only occasionally visits abusive parent. He currently suffers from anxiety because of his exposure to abuse. No children deserve it. Even if he sometimes has good times with his mother, it does not erase abuse.

Many abused children could and will grow up just fine not because of abuse and punitive style of parenting, but despite that. I personally do not think that parents need to experiment on their children to see if they survive abuse or not.

I think if one thinks it is OK subjecting children to unnecessary pain and suffering, one should refrain from having children. And if they already have them by mistake, they need to refrain from having more.

And it does not have to be either or: abuse or extreme permissiveness. You can be a parent and not be abusive or punitive.

As about area of afluence and police reports, your experiences clearly completely opposite of ours. I raised my DD in a very affluent, one of the most affluent areas in the US. We are not wealthy, but all her friends are. None is in any trouble, has DUI or in any other way troubled. They are all upstanding people and actually just plain nice people and no, they were not raised by punitive/abusive parents. Of course it is not because they are wealthy, i am just surprised about your experiences.

I personally did not have a child to experiment on how much suffering she could endure and still grow up OK. maybe she would, but I think it is a bizarre reason to have children.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

PO1 I never said that BECAUSE I grew up in an area of affluence, children have these problems. However, growing up in an area with money can lead to parents who, instead of parenting, just throw money at their children so their children can go out with friends, and do whatever they please instead of actually taking on parenting roles. There are plenty of people who turn out just fine here too.

Again, my point is - punishment is on a continuum and not everyone will agree where the "right" spot is. Do I agree with using hot sauce and cold showers as punishment methods? Absolutely not. I love children and I think that is just cruel. Do I think that spanking - that to me, in 3 swats on the butt TOPS and never with an object is ok? Yes, as long as afterwards the parent and child sit down and discuss what happened and why they were punished. There are people, such as yourself, who will not agree with me. But who are you to say your way is the right way?

I 100% believe that being a parent is the most difficult job on the planet. There are so many factors that can influence how someone parents. It's a whole lot of on the job training, and I'm sure every parent has one or two moments they wish they could take back or change. One slip will not cause a child to be irreparably broken, in fact, neither will several slips. The key is to realize whats going on, where you're going wrong, and trying to change it - like this mom did.


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

I agree smashley that one slip or even several slips don't necessarily cause a lot of damage, but consistent abuse does.

I am glad you agree that cold showers and hot sauce are just ridiculous "parenting" (or rather punishing because it is not parenting) methods.

Yes there are plenty of parents who just plain cannot say "no" to their children and just spoil them crazy.

And I have heard of style of parenting that i find the most disturbing: spoiling kids rotten showering them with lavish gifts and treating them like they are still incapable toddlers and then spank, give hot sauce and/or otherwise emotionally abuse them the very next day. I think this type of parenting is the most damaging because it raises children confused and conflicted about love. Too often women who were raised this way would choose abusive husbands: they would think it is OK if their husband abuses them one day and then buys unnecessary expensive gifts after it: because that's what mommy used to do. Nuts


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges - Guilty

Well, she's been found guilty. What I found particularly telling was that producers passed her over for the Dr. Phil show and asked her to tape punishments to see if it was extreme enough to get her on the show. She did... and this is the result.

Dr. Phil should go to jail too. This is ridiculous.

From the link I provide below:

An Alaska woman faces up to a year in jail for pouring hot sauce down the throat of her young son and forcing him into a cold shower in an attempt to land a place on the "Dr. Phil" television show.

A jury in Anchorage convicted Jessica Beagley, 36, on a misdemeanor child abuse charge after viewing a videotape that Beagley had made. In the video, the boy -- one of two 5-year-old twins she and her husband adopted from Russia in 2008 -- is seen first being force-fed hot sauce and then crying loudly in a cold shower.

"There is no reason in the world why someone has to hurt a child to get on a reality show," prosecutor Cynthia Franklin told the jury in her closing argument.

The case has stirred an outcry in Russia, where reports of children suffering abuse after being adopted in the U.S. prompted Russian authorities last year to order a suspension in international adoptions.

That order followed the case of a Tennessee woman who put her 7-year-old adopted son unaccompanied on a flight back to Moscow with a note saying he had "severe psychopathic issues."

Russia's ombudsman for children's rights, Pavel Astakhov, estimated that 17 Russian children have died as a result of domestic violence in the U.S. since 1992.

"It has been quite a revelation to me that children are being shipped out of Russia in the dozens, without any agreements. ... I say that such agreements should be signed not only with the United States, but also with the U.K., France, Germany and other countries," he told Russian newspaper Rossiskaya Gazeta early this year.

The videotape shot at Beagley's direction by her 10-year-old daughter shows Beagley confronting her son over bad behavior and asking him if he knew what the result was going to be. "Hot sauce," he replied.

"Don't you spit at me!" she orders him. Next she is seen forcing him into a cold shower, with the boy's screams audible.

Testimony at trial revealed that Beagley had made the video as an audition tape for a "Mommy Confessions" segment that aired on the "Dr. Phil" show last fall. After previously being passed over for an "Angry Moms" segment in 2009, Beagley was asked by producers to tape actual instances of punishment to determine if she would be included in the new show.

"I think anybody would look at that and say that is absolutely outrageous, it is over the top, it is abusive, it is inefficient, it is -- it is out of control," Dr. Phil McGraw said on the show after portions of the tape are aired.

Her lawyer, William Ingaldson, argued that Beagley had been struggling with the boy's bad behavior for some time, according to the Anchorage Daily News. "The way the law is written ... makes it really difficult for a parent to discipline your kids and not be subject to other people's subjective ideas of what is right or wrong," he told the jury.

Beagley showed no emotion after the verdict was read Tuesday and walked out of the courtroom with her husband, Gary, an Anchorage police officer, without commenting.

Sentencing is set for Monday. Beagley could face up to a year in prison and a $10,000 fine. Authorities have not said whether the boy, one of six children, will be removed from the home.

Here is a link that might be useful: LA Times


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RE: hot sauce-abuse charges

I don't know what I think about the verdict. I thought what she did was horrific and abusive. HOWEVER, I think so many parents adopt these children from orphanages and are woefully unprepared for what they're getting into. I also think that some of these children (particularly the older ones) from Eastern European orphanages suffer from RAD (reactive attachment disorder) and are beyond help. They will not bond with ANYONE.

My aunt and uncle adopted their DD (now 11) from China and a couple who was in their group to get the babies/children had to disrupt their own adoption several months later. The preschool girl they adopted was diagnosed with RAD and it's just apparently SO difficult, if not impossible, to treat. It is amazing to think any child could be beyond the reach of parental love but some of these children have been SO traumatized and scarred, they sadly are.

I don't think any one of us can judge this woman for living with a child with severe behavioral issues and going to extremes.

I personally find her *discipline* methods awful, degrading, abusive, and so on. I truly do. BUT I am not sure jail is the answer here. I think she needs help.

I'm not sure what needs to be done with the child in question or her other kids. Should they be removed from the home? I don't know. What is the husband saying? Is he a capable and loving parent?

I just don't see how locking her up for a year is going to change anything.

But I'll be damned if I know what the answer is. It's a sad situation.


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