My DH effectively put his own son, my SS now 30, out at 18. We had not married yet so there was no SM involved. He had pulled SS through high school, SS was supposed to go to community college, chose one far from home instead of a fine one near home where he was invited to live rent-free, never got himself registered, floated around etc etc. Got in to the Army, kicked out and I shared on that in the other thread.

DH resented paying CS like most ex husbands do because they think the mother is spending it on themselves. I don't agree with that but I've never gotten CS or written a CS check. Some ex wives only use it for the kids, some use it to support lifestyles. I've seen both up close with friends and family.

I think it is an offtrack premise "Dad's kids vs. mom's kids." I think it all comes down to personal, family background. My parents made sure I made it through college long after I turned 18. They paid tuition and I always had a room without rent at home. Dh's parents essentially cut him loose at 17. He had to live with an aunt, pay her rent and work his last year of high school. His parents had 9 kids so anyone who could stand on their own two feet was made to do so! He went on to finish college and get an advanced degree completely on his own with no parental help. We are both from intact families, still married parents but with very different backgrounds. DH made it on his own, my parents carried me. DH did the same to his son, SS at 18 or at least tried. Different results, LMAO

I think it's all case by case.

"...I think it is an offtrack premise "Dad's kids vs. mom's kids." I think it all comes down to personal, family background. "

Well said, LAmom. I think you hit the nail on the head.

What I find interesting, is the kids themselves are not so eager to be out on their own. I'm 40 & can remember, in high school, that all everyone wanted to do was get the heck OUT of their parent's home.... whether it was going away to college, getting an apartment with roommates, or getting married.. the goal was getting OUT. Nobody wanted to live under their parent's rules... so the option was go get your own place and do as you please.

Today, I see a trend of kids (meaning teens & young adults) that want to stay as long as possible... they want to have the 'adult' freedoms that come with their age, but they want to live at home longer and more parents allow it... why would they want to leave? If 18 is too young, I think they should put an initiative on the ballot and let's vote to make it 23 or 24. Then we don't have to listen to our 18 or 19 year old say "But I'm an adult now! I can stay out all night if I want!"

I posted this as a response to CANTTELL's post HELP, but it really belongs over here and I think it ties in with IMA's last post:

*You should discuss your financial concerns with your partner. Instead of suggesting that the kid get a job (which I personally think she should do or financial aid), tell your partner that he/she should pick up a second job to pay for these additional expenses. It bet your partner would rather have DD contribute to or cut back on expenses rather than having to take a second job to pay for everything.

As an aside, and not to hijack this thread - What is it about our generation that wants to infantilize our children? I was just talking to a friend about this forum yesterday because of the KKNY Dad v. Mom thread. I am in my very late 40's and as I said in KKNY's post, I was required to pay rent at 18. Additionally, any college would have been my expense. The friend (mid-40's), with whom I spoke to yesterday, is an architect and a graduate of Princeton University. She moved out after high school (late year b-day, she was 17), she worked during high school (we laughed at our minimum wage jobs making $3.35/ hr). She rec'd a scholarship for her under grad studies, the scholarship did not cover all of her expenses and she worked the entire six years she was at school.

I'm not implying that everyone should get an Ivy League education in those terms, but if instead of coddling our children, we gave them some responsibility and raised the bar a bit for them, they will mostly be capable of shining.*

Princeton, like most of the Ivy League provides full need based aid, and NO merit aid. You either get accepted or you don't, but once your in, they evaluate your need, and cover it (after looking at parents income)

Many other schools do not have as generous aid. I'm sorry, but not every kid gets into an Ivy school.

I dont know about you, but I do not infantilize my child, but I do live in reality world.

KK-
Gee, I just don't know what to tell you. I do know that I didn't personally attack your parenting style, so no need to get up your hackles.

As for my friend - she told me that she had to buy her own drafting pens, angles, curves and other related items. The balsa wood for the models, she said, was extremely expensive; and I believe she said books. Maybe you can look into the fine print details of what is and isn't paid for under the terms of a scholarship (perhaps there is more than one type of scholarship???) and get back to us. As for her family, she doesn't like to speak of them and I've had to read in between the lines. She has alluded to the fact that it wasn't the most stable environment and kind of crazy.

Gerina, I was not getting up hackles, I just wanted to explain how financial aid works, but feel free to discuss with your child's guidance counselor. Your friends scholarship may not have paid entire way as she may not have been considered "emacipated" under finanical aid standards, and the school may have expected her family to pay some amount. I doubt that the cost of art/model supplies would have resulted in so much work that she took 2 extra years to graduate. But no matter, my point is that it is unrealistic to expect kids to get through college on their own.

KK-
The reason why it took her six years to complete her education was not due to poverty. My friend got an advanced degree. She worked on campus the final two years of her school career. In addition to the actual educational materials that were required for her classes, she still had to buy shampoo, clothes and other sundries. Her parents were not in the picture.

I don't have a kid and my SK's are no longer in high school. Therefore, I will not be contacting a guidance counselor for you. Out of curiosity I just checked the price of balsa wood and it's not cheap.

Gerina,

I am still missing the point of your friend's saga. Even though I dont see anecdotes as establishing a general principal, first you start with it taking her 6 years, then the equipment saga, then oh, it was a graduate degree. Whatever, I still think most kids do need parental help with college.

Unless it's changed, KK's depiction of financial aid in the Ivy's is right on target. There were small merit scholarships (think $500 per semester), but mainly, financial aid for non-tuition, non-room & board expenses was some variation of the work-study program. The schools made a variety of jobs available to students with financial need, and the students were expected to work a certain number of hours per week to pay for their own books, drafting supplies,beer money, etc.

If the parents are poor enough, it's certainly possible for a very bright, very capable student to pay their own way through college using a combination of scholarships, grants, loans and work study. But if the parents can but won't pay for college, the young person is pretty much out of luck...

pseudo, you are incorrect.

there is no magical age, there is only one difference: at 18 people could not possibly be done with college and professional training, they just started it. yet at 21 they are close to graduation.

first year of college nobody gets enough loan for college and needs to use other channels, at 21 most kids are on their last year of college so more undergraduate loan is available.

"So 18 to 21 is do as you wish age ... 21 to 25 start to be held accountable..... so by age 30 they should be able to stand on their own!'

I strongly disagree. 18 to 21 (or more realistically 22) is time to get college education, not do as you wish, but luckily if we raise kids right then their "wish' will be to get education and work to contribute. In my opinion it is unacceptable to raise children so they are not willing to neither work nor go to school. Wrong on every level.

as about working during college, everyone who is not wealthy works while going to college, what is the big deal. DD works full time as a waitress and has other odd part time jobs that come and go like being a model at Art School and similar stuff, so do her classmates at college. everyone works unless they are wealthy and can afford not to work. i am surprised you are talking about your friend like it is some unique situation.

"As for her family, she doesn't like to speak of them and I've had to read in between the lines. She has alluded to the fact that it wasn't the most stable environment and kind of crazy."

I'm so sorry, because I know that some of you are going through this college thing right now. But it gets REALLY REALLY REALLY freakin old having nearly every thread end up talking about college expenses.

LOL ashley I think we have nearly as many conversations about some other boring topics like what kids eat or don't, how BM messes up visitation schedules, who picks up who and when, kids playing video games too much, kids playing sports and who should take them to sports etc There are no rules what we can or can't talk about. i guess everything goes

"but luckily if we raise kids right then their "wish' will be to get education and work to contribute"
.... but what is a SP to do ????? we are not allowed to have an opinion as to how the children are raised.

I don't know what SP to do. In every family that I know in real life parents raise their children. It is nice to have involved and helpful stepparents but ultimately parents are the ones responsible. I am sorry you are not allowed to have an opinion on how children are raised. If your opinion is valid, there is nothing wrong in at least listening to it. You should address it with your husband. I think it is between spouses.

FD, you entirely missed my point. You said *as about working during college, everyone who is not wealthy works while going to college, what is the big deal. DD works full time as a waitress and has other odd part time jobs that come and go like being a model at Art School and similar stuff, so do her classmates at college. everyone works unless they are wealthy and can afford not to work. i am surprised you are talking about your friend like it is some unique situation.*

My point was that, like my friend, not everyone receives a silver spoon at birth. IMO many people on this forum are actually appalled if a young adult actually has to work or pitch in with a household chore while going to school. My friend worked her behind off. The experience of putting herself though school instilled a personal confidence in her and gave her more of an education than she would have received if mom and dad did everything for her.

I think it's ridiculous to pay for a kid's education, housing, car, insurance & gas, cell phone bill, etc. and not expect anything in return. Good grades are not enough - sorry. Life is tough, nothing is free, and at 18, 19, 20... those lessons need to be learned too. I'm not saying the kid has to pay with a pound of flesh, but if they live at home they can do a chore or two and they certainly should pay for their own cell phone and gas.

I think majority of people on this forum have children who are too young to work and few of us have children who work and/or go to school, that's why i was not sure who you are trying to impress with the story. who are these people?
this woman worked herself through school years ago, it is not even recent event.

"I think it's ridiculous to pay for a kid's education, housing, car, insurance & gas, cell phone bill, etc. and not expect anything in return. Good grades are not enough - sorry."

But who is saying otherwise? that's why I am not sure who you are telling it to. If people are wealthy and can afford whatever what do we care? i don't.

"Life is tough, nothing is free, and at 18, 19, 20... those lessons need to be learned too." But that what is everybody else saying that's why i am not sure who was this story for. Frankly I was annoyed by that story. she paid for balza wood, so what. everyone I know has hard life one way or the other, I don't find it impressive. I find it sad that someone has crazy uninvolved parents like your friend did but everything else is just a typical life story about years ago.

FD - Sorry for annoying you so much. I wasn't trying to impress anyone. I brought it up because (and I would rather not name names and you're smart enough to know who) some people here are aghast and act as though it is a hardship or asking too much for a 21 year-old to work for a few hours per week to pay for their own cell phone bill or whatever while in college.

I was trying to point out that some people actually have to do a lot more than pay for a phone bill or whatever else while in school and it doesn't kill them. Your DD is a perfect example of somebody who wants something badly enough to work for it. It is a great quality and she must have learned it from you. It's certainly none of my business, but in most cases I personally think it's crazy when parents work a second job to provide " the extras" for a kid who is unwilling to get a job or even help out around the house.

You said this: *I strongly disagree. 18 to 21 (or more realistically 22) is time to get college education, not do as you wish, but luckily if we raise kids right then their "wish' will be to get education and work to contribute. In my opinion it is unacceptable to raise children so they are not willing to neither work nor go to school. Wrong on every level.* We're on the same page.

If you are referring to me, I dont think a student working over summers is a problem. But summers and a few hours a week is not going to pay for college for most kids. My opinion -- college is not a luxury.

KK-

I don't disagree with you, but try telling a family with multiple kids and limited funds that it isn't a luxury.

Hate ta tell ya kkny, but in the province of quebec, many bioparents boot their kids out by 16. That is the legal age to be out of parents range. Whether they are ready or not.
Doesn't matter whether its a SM or BM. But nice to know you still have a chip on your shoulder about SM. Trying to stir the pot from this angle wont fly.
18 is just the governments legal age to vote, to work, for them to collect taxes at that early age. This is of course doesn't mean the child will be ready at 18 unless you do a darn good job in training them or unless the child was up against the wall. Like i was. I had my own place at 15. Full time job and went ot school full time. And no my sm didn't boot me out, i left cause i didn't like my dad's set of rules. left long before he married and long before i had a stepmom.
My opinion, parents have to get them working young and to be responsible. Not spoon feed them
Get this! You know what my stepdaughter told me last month????
I quote: My mommy has to give me everything i want till i'm 18. This mena, cell phone, unlimited texting etc..etc...
My answer: Your mom doens't have to give you squate!!!! a roof, food and basic clothing. Beyong that, Get a JOB!!!!! Where did you get this sense of entitlement from? Obviously not your mom or your dad?
Her answer: i've never heard of anyone kicking their kid out before 18.
Mine: i have. Cell phones, text messages is a luxury not a need. Its a want and if your mom wants to give it to you , its because she wants to not because she has to. In the end, GET A JOB! Your lucky you dont have to pay any bills, rent, food, electriciy, tv, visa, clothes etc...One day , sit down and calculate how much aperson makes per house vs what they have to dish out as regular expense, then come back to me and we'll talk. REal talk. Not absurd demands from a little girl.
So you see kkny, Doesn't matter whether it be SM or SD or BM or BF...kids these days honestly don't know how to be autonomous. THey expect handouts. I know her mother did't teach her this. I know her dad didn't either.
So where are these kids learning to mooch? Her mother makes her work in the summers, saves her money....and yet she still has this attitude, this idea that parents serve children. WTF?

I think Sweeby's generalization has merit...

Nivea -- I agree that it is likely that step families do better for kids than single moms, but being a single mom is a choice than can be avoided. A mom may not be able to avoid her child having a SM.

Organic -- I am glad all turned out well for you, but I still think 16 is really too young to be on your own, and 18 also. BTW, one of my DDs friends go to McGill, and from what he says, most of the kids he know have their family's support (and are over 18).

Gerina, I am sympathetic to not enough money to go around. But I dont think people should have more kids until they have figured out how to take care of the ones they have. And that includes college.

KK, actually the studies I've seen and just general observation, kids fare better with single moms rather than stepfamilies.

Like, look at how many threads and posters with situations where the BM has a habit of getting involved with undesirable men and "ditching" the kids. I don't think it's representative of all single moms but I think it happens enough that it does become a problem for the children involved and ultimately leads to less rates of children from remarried Moms attending college. There were a couple threads not too far back where Mom remarried (never received CS from the bio father) and then expected her new husband to stop giving support (pay for daughters wedding) to his bio children in order to pay for her childrens college. I think that between child support being hard to receive (if someone really doesn't want to pay it, they won't) and women getting paid less in general, this is bound to happen.

Dangit, forgot to add to wrap up my last post. To add on to the above, women of that mind frame where finding a man is top priority (and don't even start, everyone here knows women like that!) of course childrens education are going to take a back seat. As well as their emotional health etc.

Nivea, sorry I misunderstood what you said earlier. I agree with you that all the situations you mention are sad.

"But I dont think people should have more kids until they have figured out how to take care of the ones they have."

Hey kk, would you mind repeating that to SD's mom? She just went on 'maternity leave' and DH got $4 in child support yesterday, probably the last bit of support he'll see for a long while since now she can't work.. she has a baby to take care of after all.

and nivea, I agree those studies are probably somewhat accurate. It goes back to the parent's priorities and if a single parent that wants their child to go to college, but is considering marriage... one of the considerations NEEDS to be the potential spouses attitude toward that goal. My opinion is people do not discuss the right things before they get married... first or subsequent. If they did, many more first marriages could last... if they would choose the right person and discuss the right issues. (that's still not a guarantee a marriage will last, but many of us know people IRL that should have discussed how the children should be raised because now that they are divorced, they can't agree on ANYTHING... but they may have discussed how many kids they wanted.)

Just a thought.... why do we have to take a test to get a driver's license but not a marriage license? Why is there a "license" to get married anyway? They should call it a permit... you just pay the fee and that's it.

"but being a single mom is a choice than can be avoided"

Totally disagree with this statement.

It wasn't a choice that could have been avoided for me. It's not a choice that can be avoided for widows. It's not a choice for women whose spouses leave without any warning or trying to work it out whatsoever.

It's not choice unless a single woman chooses to have a child as a single woman and they stay that way.

You (KK) are a single mom. Could you have avoided it or did you do everything you could to avoid it & it happened anyway? Just curious. Or maybe I completely misunderstood that statement.

~Cat

Catlettuce, very sorry for unclear language, I was trying to differentiate between unmarried women who by their own choice have kids and divorcees or widows.

Ima, I agree that anyone of any sex who can not support the kdis they have should not have more. My state used to provide women heading AFDC families (which stands for Aid to Families with Dependent Children, but some joke it should be Aid to Dependent Families with Children) with invitro fertilization if needed. GRRRR.

My cousin is a stepmother. She married the dad when her skids were around 12-13. It's a long story but his kids never lived with them UNTIL...

The then 18 year old son of her husband started having some problems, defiance with his mother and dad, not wanting to work, the usual. My cousin took him in and let him stay with her as a fairly neutral party as his own BM had basically kicked him out and her husband was on the warpath with his own biokid. Fast forward, the kid, now 27 or 28, finished college, works in a great profession and gets along with all of his parents bio and step. But it was the STEPMOM, my cousin, who stepped in and kept him while his parents were almost through with him when he hit 18.

How does that fit with your theories? It all depends on the families, the individuals and their personal value systems.

Lamom,

Of course, everyone is different.

I started this post after a series of posts that had a theme running through them that the SM wanted the kids out when they hit 18, followed by one of a SM who was (IMHO) concerned that her DH would force out her kid at 18.

kkny,

You are right, lots of parents want their kids out at 18. After going through 3-5 rough teenage years whether the kids are step or bio, you bet they want them out! My intact parents never said it but I'm sure they let out a sigh of relief when I got on the plane to college.

You may have a point that some SM's and probably the SD's may be more determined with their skids but you know after participating on this board why that would be the case. They are not only dismissing the skid but the attendant baggage of the courts, ex-wife, ex-husband, new husband or wife of the first marriages, 2nd or 3rd families etc. Of course, plenty of bio parents can't wait to drop Susie or Johnny off at college as well. Or tell Susie or Johnny "Get a job or get moving!"

And of course, there is always the divide between mothers and fathers on this issue. Fathers, bio or step, do tend to be tougher I think on this kind of thing, especially if the child in question is male. My DH left home at 17 because of pressure from his father. He didn't go far, to his aunt's a mile or so away but he had to pay rent and was still in high school. The aunt made him pay some nominal amount but he had to keep his high school job, finish with decent grades or SHE was going to put him out too! So he did work and keep his grades together. Went on to college and an advanced degree. I think that is the way it works for everyone and that it is not a stepparent vs. bioparent issue so much except for the overlay of all the baggage that goes with stepparenting. Which, I will admit, is a major overlay.

I agree with nivea if women marry men who mistreat their children then of course kids would be 100% better if moms stayed single. now financially kids might be better off if a stepfather is a provider but money is not everything.

on the topic of more kids. I think it is great to have big families, but I don't have much sympathy for women who complain they cannot provide for their kids or their marriages are abusive or dads are deadbeat yet they continue having children. I don't understand statements such as I cannot help my kids with anything because I have too many kids, well they don't have that many.

yeap lamom it depends on value system and priority. if a priority is to keep a man no matter what then of course forget about helping children, their education or like nivea said: their emotional wellbeing. But let's not make it an example of something positive.

Most people (if not all) I personally know in real life do hep their children with education, every one of DD's friends gets parental support through college.

Lol,, kkny , i work at mcgill. The kids that attend mcgill are golden spoon fed. Have bank accounts filled by parents and most do not have a parttime job. Been here for 25 years within the mcgill system and have seen many mnay entitle BRATS go through the turn style. Whether it be biokids, stepkids..you name it.
The small percentage that do attend mcgill work hard at jobs,plus study and go to labs to finish what they study. Its a very small percentage. Mcgill offers barely any night time course, hence why they cater to young student who's family supports them. ITs very difficult to work and study at the same time while trying ot take care of bills. I did it, BUt it almost killed me. I was a zombie by the end of it.
It still doesn't change the fact that in quebec the legal age is 16 and that kids are booted out whether they are ready or not.
Saying that your friend goes to mcgill and parents support them there is basically confirming a point. THe parents who have the money to support these kids can and do it. THis doesn't make the kid less entitled here. Alot of the mcgill students i work with do feel and have this sense of entitlement and are completley immature when it comes to reality and real life. Most do not live on their own, Dont pay their cell phones or their own cars that is financed by daddy and mommy.
But the good thing is , i've seen a change in last 5 years. Parents are pulling their support. Telling their kids to pay for cell phones, cars , gas...telling them to get a job. THANK GOD!

Organic, I beleive McGill is highly respected. These kids, that you call brats, are keeping your employer in business. For you to call your employer's customers, because in one sense, that is what the students are, brats is, IMHO, highly inaproriate.

Even within the last 5 years, I still see parents supporting their kids in college. My DD and her friends are in college right now. It is expected where I live that parents contribute. Not saying that summer jobs are not the norm, but that will not be sufficient to cover college costs.

McGill is not highly respected. Its gone downhill for quite sometime.
I know quite a bit of info that i will not disclose on this site. BUt understand this. Mcgill pays to protect its reputation from being tarnished..unfortunately that department cannot hide some of the inappropriate things the institute has done against its own employees.
And no, the students that i call brats are not keeping my employer in business. Its the scientists and labs that keep mcgill from going under. Mcgill takes a heafty percentage from rewards given to them out of the scientists. As well the way mcgill has been organised , its the scientists that have to enlist workers and they pay them out of funds that are not mcgills funds and yet the worker must have Mcgill on their paychecks and pay them a certain percentage for the name and for using their facilities.
No, kkny, mcgill has gone down. It use to be a great place 20 years ago...not anymore.
IMHO, me calling mcgills 'customers' brats is just that. Being honest. These kids feel entitled to alot and dont deserve it. You think their honest? ehheheheheh lol...( ah.....ignorance is bliss)..Sorry kkny. You dont have the full picture and mostly wont. You cannot base you judgement on mcgill from hearsay because a friend of yours has a daughter attending here. I'm speaking from experience.
If you want to turn a blind eye,and ear, its your choice.
Do you know how much Mcgill waste money? Student $$$ is extra cash for mcgill so they can do what they please. Its not their core cash.
We employees hold up mcgill and get treated like garbage. But we keep our jobs, in this economic instability. We need it to pay the bills.
The students faces are changing too. They non brats are building in numbers...working,,, building a new mcgill. I hope it changes in the years to come more. And more of this young adult shed their entitled attitudes.
A few tadbits: mcgill goes through computers liek water...wasted money, they pay large amounts of people in the high levels when they leave...wasted money...furniture? 10,000$ for a talbe they didnt' need.
You dont live here kkny. You dont work where i do. You honestly dont see the things i see. Mcgill can manage themselves soo much better but higher management wont listen. They even have staff members here that are on thier core payroll who do nothing.NOthing!!! a student should do this job and get some cash to put into their education...but no...they have several individuals here who honestly do nothing.......

" It is expected where I live that parents contribute" You hit the mark!!!
Its expected!!!! The sense of their entitlement.
BREAK that cycle! Summer jobs are not sufficient, they can apply for grants and pay back after they graduates. Thats the norm.
The times are changing...at least in my province.

So, just so I understand. Are you one of the world renounded scientests McGill is known for?

That's right, I don't work there. But where I work, we dont post on a board anything negative about the employer, employees or customors. I suspect almost anything could find negative things to say about their employer. The name McGill is respected in the business world, where I work.

I see a lot of bitterness toward kids whose parents for college.

You say kids have a sense of entitlement that there parents will pay for college. I don't see that. Where I live, even if my daughter took the maximize loan, it wouldnt come close to paying. Grants -- what grants for undergraduates that are not need based?

I have to agree with KK, just because people have the money and can afford things it does not make them spoiled brats. i know plenty of rich people and they are no different from anyone else. it is rather simplistic thinking: rich means selfish and spoiled. I sense some jealousy in such thinking.

I also do not think that if parents pay for college, kids have sense of entitlement. sense of entitlement has nothing to do with money. plenty of people think they are entitled for welfare for example.

everyone I know is contributing to their children education one way or the other. nothing unusual or unique about that.

to add: to get maximum loan one has to have either no parents or parents living below poverty level. if you make any kind of money, your children only qualify for tiny loan and it is because parents are expected to contribute, frankly if you can but refuse to help why do you even have children?

My nephew applied and got 2000 for his first year. Obviously in the US it cannot pay tuition. If my brother would refuse to help my nephew would not be able to afford going to school at all. My SO's DD only qualified for few thousands a year because of how much her dad makes. And I am not talking about wealthy people, just people making OK money. To get decent loan or grant one has to be very poor.

I thought McGill is rather well established school that hard to get in, surprised to hear otherwise.

Ah yes, ingnorance is bliss.
Get off your mighty highhorse kkny.
You obviously dont like when someone sticks it to you.
Mcgill is well established. Its not hard to get into. There is also a skew in the admittance level. The main reason being, they accept more students worldwide because they pay triple the tuition fee.
Lets not forget this university is a business. They must make money to survive. And as Concordia and Mcgill and all unvisersity alike. They all have their politics good and bad
Heck i didn't say all the students were snots. Just a portion...which is now changing. :0)
Its not only loans but bursary's. My cousin applied for many and got alot. and worked her butt off in business.
Like i said before Mcgill caters to selected population for its own personal business. Its been quite successful. But its obvious you people havent' been looking into the newspapers in the last year to see what has been exposes. THe money handouts when people leave...hiring....
etc..
I am free to speak about the good and the bad. Mcgill is a good university with its bad as well. Its not a squeeky clean place..and i'm sur eother institutes have their issues.
Nope..jealousy...love the way you twist things....i'm sure your ex husband had his hands full with you ;)
As for scientists at mcgill, many have retired and have not looked back.
ANd i never said rich = spoiled...
I clearly said any parent who spoon feeds their children at every turn makes them entitled brats.
Dotn twist my words ladies.

Of course you have the right to say what you want, as does everyone on this board. I just do not think it appropriate to badmouth an employer. That to me is disrespectful. If you feel what an employer is doing is so distasteful, dont work there.

And I disagree with you, I see nothing wrong with parents paying for college. As FD said, at least in the US, it is much more difficult to obtainm scholarships and subsidized loans if students under age 25 have parents with even a fair amount of income. Doesnt matter if students say they are emancipated.

I don't see you "sticking in to me" -- you have your opinion and I have mine.

McGill is not hard to get in? GPA average has to be A/A-/B+, those are hard requirements, SAT individual scores have to be in 600s. I agree it is not the highest requirements for SAT, not Ivy League but still hot that easy. How could you say it is not hard to get in?

Of course international students pay more in any university they attend, they even pay more out of state, I don't see how it speaks poorly of any school.

I don't know what type of job you do at McGill, but I doubt it is anything academical, you don't seem to know admission requirements.

I'm high ranked in mcgill. I know very well what i am talking about.
ANd Canadian education is not the same as American. Its not hard to get an A/A-/B+ as you put it. THe grading system is Completely different. There are schools in the states that are of the highest order. They are amazing. But not all students attend some of the best schools.

And i really hate to give you more light on this subject but many Mcgill applicants with A- have been rejected due to quota and other admission issues.
Its a business ladies. Remember.
I say its not hard to get in because i see alot of smart students. Alot , many who apply to mcgill have these high marks. Trust me, i know.
The only thing wrong with parents paying for college and university is if the child expects it kkny.
Dont twist my words ladies. I dont think its wrong for parents to help their children BUT they have to work partime, they have to not expect it because they are the chidl and that is my parent. And i would help my child in university as long as they have a part time job and they're grades are high.
I've seen a few cases not only in concordia but in mcgill and two other institutes where the poor parents pay and the kid goofs, while having his cell phone and car paid for by said parents. Its RIDICULOUS!
Parents in this society must draw the line and how they raise their kids now adays. These kids will the futur and this entitlement must be changed.
Now we have gone off topic and we can discuss schools and politics all we like.
In the end, after being part of this forum for almost 10 years, ladies you are beating the same horse from a different angle.
Kkny you still have your chip on your shoulder against SM
Obviously me being one will get your knickers in a fancy.
Lets not forget i was also a stepchild. I know both fences.
As for tone, i'm not the one who 's bitter and jealous in my situ.
good day ladies.

kids don't goof because parents pay their tuition. all DD's friends have their tuition paid by parents, none of them is goofing off. everyone does well in school. if children don't value education (weren't raised to value it) OR are not mature enough to handle it, then they would not do well. But in those cases it is not wise to send them to college the first year after high school. about work, DD works because she cannot afford not to work, but her best friend attends Harvard working on double major, he has neither time nor energy to work, it is way more school work than DD has to do.

you sound unrealistic.

A average is not hard to achieve? do your kids have A average?

DD has 2200 out 2400 SAT score (READING 800/writing 750/math 650) yet she never ever had A/A- average. how is it easy to achieve? It is very difficult! she would not get to plenty of schools due to her GPA not being high enough.

of course those who apply for McGill have high marks! otherwise they would not even apply knowing they won't get in! You see a lot of smart kids, well duh. Not smart kids are not going there. i can't believe your posts, you contradict yourself i every line.

Organic, there are no need for personal attacks against me. I do not have my knickers in a fancy.

There is no way most middle class kids from the states can put himself through a school like McGill. The aid just isnt there. In the US, parents are expected to help. Otherwise the kid will end up at local CC or local public U. Not saying that is the end of the world, just saying.

As to McGill admitting some students because it is business (I would have said, it has to assure its continuation, not that it is a business), then as I said, I do not think you should be trashing the "full-pay" students who keep it, your employer, in business.

What I don't understand is I seem to recall you have railed in the past about stepchildren not showing respect, but you apparently think you owe your employer no respect. A stepchild has no choice of stepparent, you have choice of employer.

OK, I asked my colleague today, who is Canadian, (I have 2 Canadian colleagues) and she told me that no it is not easy to achieve A/A- average at all. it is as hard as in any other country. And Canadian system does not make it any different. A is A. and it is not easy to get to McGill at all.

*insert dead horse*