Hi Scott! It is refreshing to see the trend away from McMansions. I do not even find them attractive anymore.

However, I do feel it is very sad that most families eat in front of a TV rather than interact with one another during a shared meal, and that this trend is expanding. Whenever our kids had friends over, they couldn't believe they got a home made meal, and that we actually sat together.

While raising our family we always had supper together at our kitchen table. The television in the living room was not allowed to be turned on at that time. Our children are grown now, and they still talk about how wonderful that kitchen was. One daughter said it's on her bucket list to someday buy that house back. Incidentally, our large farm table was smack dab in the center of that kitchen. I used it to roll pie dough on, as well as for meals. I don't think the material aspect of that kitchen is what they think so fondly of. I believe it is the wonderful feelings we had there. It was not a huge kitchen....just "big enough". And while I had very nice hand made cabinetry, and was pretty, it wasn't glitzy like the magazines.

The feedback on kitchen design from our children lately has been for us to replicate the essence of that kitchen in the house my husband and I are in the process of building now. It was a happy place, felt cosey, and it was a breeze to cook, serve, and clean things up in that kitchen. In contrast, the house we just sold had the "required" dining nook at the end of the kitchen area. Though the kitchen was beautiful to look at, I hated that kitchen. It was not homey and I ran marathons every evening. And though I enjoy cooking, I'd rather hike in the woods than in my kitchen.

So....I am a huge fan for what is just big enough for what one wants out of a home, and no larger. I feel the house we are building now is more than enough room for my cooking and preservation and storage of food, and should have room in it for a nice sewing area as well, with nothing cramped. Basically, we live in the kitchen, living room area, and bedroom. I need a nice sewing area in which to create when the mood strikes. Anything else would be wasted for us.

The one thing young people need to think about is not accumulating such huge debt loads, such as big mortgages on homes that are above their means to own, new fancy cars, expensive vacations and other traps that society (and those that stand to become wealthy from) have made many people feel inadequate without.

We build a nice fire outside in the evening on our land, open a nice bottle of wine, look at the shooting stars and constellations, talk, and voila! We have the best vacation around and all we spent was the cost of the bottle of wine. I am tickled pink about the simple style of home we are building (old Florida style), my land, and my nice, but well used, pickup truck. And one of the best things we did was dump our TV a couple of years ago. Don't miss it.

Sandy

I read that article yesterday, and was also disappointed that no one eats at the table anymore (according to the article). Too many computer games, not enough family time...but these were young adults, with no children.

While smaller homes are the new trend, I think Sandy makes a great example with her kitchen. That kitchen sounds like the type of 'family kitchen' I'm trying to create with our farmhouse...and I agree, too many spaces are 'expected' but not needed.

Our society needs to reset our expectations, when it comes to home design. The Not So Big House style of home building has started to have an impact, along with other designers and architects. As people reject the huge McMansions, new homes will reflect that...I just hope they realize that eating in front of the TV is not the same as eating a meal, at a table, and really listening to each other! :)

I think there will be a lot of changes with this generation, having one living under my roof. One big shift is that most young people simply do not go outside anymore! There are children of all ages in our neighborhood, but you never see them out. I guess they are all sitting at computers. When our son was growing up, after about 8 or 10 years old, he and his friends lost all interest in the outdoors- just the opposite of the way I am, and always have been. I thought it odd that he and all his friends had NO girlfriends until college.

My wife and I are evidently heading in the 'wrong' direction. We are escaping the 'burbs and moving out to Green Acres. We're on board with the small house movement (we never got off of that particular bandwagon) but we just want to be away from so many people. I guess we'll be late-in-life homesteaders, which is another, smaller movement. I'll admit that I have rather depressing views about this country and society in general, and I'd like to be in a position to take care of ourselves should it ever come to that.

I can see smaller housing working for today's young people. How much room do you need if you never get out of your chair? Urban living makes a certain amount of sense for a 'green' society; you're compressing all of the environmentally bad stuff into a smaller area, allowing for farming and green space to remain in place.

Well, I'm in Gen Y, so I guess I'll talk about this article. LOL!

There is a lot in this article that I absolutely agree with. Especially this paragraph:
"Smaller rooms and fewer cavernous hallways to get everywhere, a bigger shower stall and skip the tub, he said. Oh, but don't forget space in front of the television for the Wii, and space to eat meals while glued to the tube, because dinner parties and families gathered around the table are so last-Gen. And maybe a little nook in the laundry room for Rover's bed?"

We want a big shower stall, no tub, a big great room, a keeping/hearth room for casual entertaining/eating on a nice couch with a smaller TV, and special spots for the dogs and cats (converting laundry room to dog room).

That being said, we still would one day like a large house in the 2500-3000 sq ft range...but tastefully designed instead of a mishmash of designing cues.

I personally want an old-fashioned library to do up in a ton of wood, old fashioned Victorian parlor furniture and a mahogany desk.

We would definitely forego the formal dining room if it weren't for my partner inheriting a beautiful formal set (at some point in the future).

We live in the city right now where we can walk to a ton of stuff.

I definitely REFUSE to live in cookie-cutter development type stuff. We will either live in an urban area, or way out in the exurbs on a piece of property NOT part of a development.

Of course, we all have our own tastes. I like a mix of contemporary and very traditional (almost Victorian), which is why I actually am interested in an old fashioned library or formal living room/parlor.

Most improtant to me though in the future is a conservatory/solarium!

We live in an old Victorian right now aqnd just love it.

To each generation its own, right?

Also, I do have to add that I find it so interesting that most of you are mourning eating around a table!

I had bad experiences eating at the table (prime time for family fights). I suppose it works out well for families that get along.

We are just much happier to watch TV in the family room while eating. Eating at the table just plain doesn't work for us, at all. We talk quite a bit while the TV is on and share eachother's thoughts if we want to.

Many people my age are the same...eat in the family room or near the TV.

Interestingly, with such a high usage of computers, one of the only times I have to watch TV is while I eat!

Krycek- I'm a little older than you are...but I have to admit, I do eat in front of the TV sometimes. However, I also love a kitchen table and wish I had one. Right now, our kitchen is too small and the table is out in the living room...where it's not used as much as it should be. Of course, it doesn't help that our dining area is now my office!

I am so sorry that you did not have a positive 'kitchen table' experience. While there were a few ugly fights at the breakfast table, when my mom and dad broke up....there are so many more happy memories. My grandma's kitchen table, with me and my mom drinking coffee with her and chatting. Earlier days, when I was drinking milk and chatting! LOL

I'm glad you are going to have a dining room, but if you are able to chat and keep in touch with the people you love (even in front of the TV) that's what really matters...and it's what you'll remember.

My grandma's been gone a few years now, but I still love all those memories. She was a wonderful cook and an even better baker. She taught me how to bake chocolate chip cookies, when I was three...and I've loved baking ever since! :)

krycek1984, I know what you mean about how some families developing bad feelings from everyone eating around the table. My mom was an excellent cook and her meals were always delicious, but that was the time both my parents took to make all of us kids feel pretty worthless. It was a horribly negative experience. I vowed that when I grew up and had a family of my own that would never happen. I absolutely did not allow arguments, insults, etc. during our mealtime. As far as TV goes, that is very personal. My husband and I keep up with the world when we want to with the internet. The rest of the time we focus on each other, or at least being in the same room reading.

I LOVE libraries! The house we raised our children in was also a very open plan, and one of the open areas was designated our library. It held all our bookcases and a few other treasures, and looked out on our property. I'm trying to figure out how to build in a few "library areas" in our house. I've seen them done in entryways, as well as in hallways that were made a bit wider to house books and display items.

I used to like larger homes in the square foot range that you mentioned. In fact the house we raised the kids in was somewhere around 2800 square feet give or take a little. I'm middle aged now and so I didn't want anything larger than 1800 square feet to take care of any more. I'd rather be outdoors. However, there is a beautiful old two story victorian house for sale in town half restored. If I were much younger I would have considered having that house moved onto our land and finishing the restoration. It was moved once to make way for a bank, so I am sure it could be moved again. Then again, I love the old Florida "cracker style" homes too, which is what we are building. Can't have both.

I'm all for not having a tub and putting in a nice shower. That's exactly what we are doing. I like the idea of long soaks in a tub, but the reality of it is I seldom do so. I think a tub would be a big waste of money for us. I spent more time dusting my last tub more than I care to remember. Our cats used it more than I did. That's where they headed if they caught a mouse or a lizard.

As far as dinner parties go....well, we were never that type. We're very casual. I like people to feel relaxed and comfortable when they visit, like part of the family. Like come on in and grab a beer or soda. Then again, we aren't friends with anyone we wouldn't feel comfortable giving a key to our house to.

flagargoyle, I remarked to my husband the other day the same thing about no one enjoying the outdoors. As a child you couldn't keep me in the house. (Actually, as an adult it's hard to keep me in). I had skating to do, horses to ride, and baseball games to play with all the neighbor kids. We hike on some of the most beautiful hiking trails along the Suwannee river. Hardly anyone is there. It blows my mind.

We're back to homesteading ourselves. Gearing up to total self sufficiency, including solar panels on our barn roof. We buy a few as we have money. It has dramatically cut our electric bill. In fact, there were days when the air conditioning was running both in our mobile home and barn office. I had laundry going and the dishwasher. We were still feeding power back into the power company. My husband begged me to use the dryer because they were getting our power for free. Our power is a co-op so they do not have to buy power from us, but we don't want to deal with the red tape involved anyway.

So far I haven't had to get a dairy cow since I've met a local farmer who raises 100% grass fed beef, as well as pastured chickens and eggs. I can also obtain real butter and cheese from them as well. Make my own bread. I seldom go to the grocery store any more. We figured as long as there are dedicated small farmers, we will give them our business. It is still a form of independance even so. A vegetable garden is in our future though as soon as we get the house finished. I do hope to get some fruit trees in the ground next month.

lavender lass, would love to see some of your kitchen pictures some day. I'm going to have my cabinets custom made, as it really is no more expensive than some of the stuff at the big box stores. I want an unfitted look that consists of a few antique pieces that blend with some newer ones. Lots of windows and few uppers, as I can't reach more than the first shelf comfortably anyway. I'd rather have a hutch for my dinnerware.

The other reason for the table in the kitchen is that when the hole was cut for the sliding glass door for the dining area, I said I wanted to cook there instead. It overlooks our woods. I felt at peace everytime I envisioned that spot for my kitchen sink and stove. I never wanted the table so far from the action again, anyway. Much discussion followed for a few weeks. I said if I was not happy in my cooking area, the table was a moot point, because I probably would stop cooking. I pointed out that we built a beautiful porch to use. After thinking about things, my husband admitted he didn't like dining areas and liked our kitchen "up north" best. The one with the table in it. Hmmmm....they say the way to a man's heart is his stomach.

kryceck, you're wants aren't off base. There is nothing wrong with liking a more formal type of home, and even a TV if that's what you like. We all have different tastes. We also change and evolve as we live through life, although I've always been an adventuresome soul, and have always loved the outdoors. We're the type that do not like living around a lot of people. One of our daughters can't imagine not being in the hub of a city, and hates cows:) (She does like coming to see us though, so she can relax).

Sandy

I suppose some of the cues I was picking up on in the article were things like the desire to walk to work and walk to shopping. That may be possible in a high density urban environment, which they said they preferred, but being close-in usually comes at a steep price. High prices and younger people don't seem to go together except on TV. Were the responders still living on their parent's wealth? I was also struck by the desire to have shared public space. It sounds like they are describing some utopian planned community, not an organically evolved village. I'm just not certain how their dreams and realities will sync up.

Take a close look at Ross Chapin and his pocket (boutique) communities and although they are fine examples of smaller structures, in some, you are required to park a good distance from your house and walk to and fro. Let's see, arrive home from grocery shopping, walk to your house (in the rain?) fetch your wagon, back to the car, load groceries into the wagon (holding an umbrella in one hand with lightening flashing nearby), back to the house, oops, forgot the eggs in the back seat... Not the most practical concept. Plus, the homes are very pricey.

When I think about our collective future, given the previously mentioned financial challenges, I see multi-generational homes being more practical and more likely to evolve. Looking back, it seems the Walton's from the TV series might have had it right. Which brings up another thought, will we see increased interest in older, more rural towns due to the affordability factor? Will telecommuting make that a workable option? Struggling retirees especially might find this an appealing option.

Other solutions might include moving away from monotonous cookie cutter "controlled" neighborhoods and going back to letting neighborhoods develop organically with a mix of house sizes and styles. Maybe some creatively shaped lots that allow for detached guesthouses (I think the new word is Granny Flats)sold with the main structure or go way outside the nimby comfort zone and allow the smaller homes to be sold separately. I see lots of Coexist bumper stickers in some tightly controlled neighborhoods. Maybe it's time we practice what we preach? Just a few options to consider.

Back to the group.

Scott

I think shortly with the rise of energy costs people will exit a lot of those huge homes for smaller ones - with lots of insulation!

people have gotten used to having so many 'things' over the past 4 decades. We didn't shop back then like people do today. We didn't go shopping often just to shop (not many places to go shop except the dime store). We didn't see a lot of stuff on tv/ads to know they existed to want to buy.

We didn't even have a car when i was growing up. we walked or took the bus. i don't think I knew any families that had more than 1 car either.

I'm putting my kitchen table back into the kitchen when I move over. I could put an island in and put my table in the DR area - but i don't want it there, I want it in the kitchen. That's where I'll use it the most.

I hope more people learn that there are more important things in life than a big house and things - like a smaller house that is paid for and a large savings account.

As I'm starting to move things over to the new place I'm once again reminded of how much 'stuff' we have - and I don't have near as much as many people these days. Still way too much!

sandy - you do need to do a thread on solar power for us. with info/instructions/guidelines and pictures! I'd sure like to have solar - seems a waste not to here in AZ.

Well, I must admit, I had to Google "Gen Y" to find out the year range. Yup, I'm a Y-er. I suppose that's just one sign as to how out of touch I am. I feel obligated to weigh in now that I see I'm in the lump. I must say, I've been enjoying your comments and reflections! I can feel the coziness of your homes.

I grew up eating with my family, at 4:30 on the dot, every evening. We laughed a lot, we talked a lot, and we now love nothing more than gathering around the table to play/snack/chat when we're all under one roof for a holiday. They are treasured times.

I also grew up in a small, brick ranch, just down the street from a neighborhood of mc mansions (where I babysat). I remember laughing about one that had what I called "the west wing," as well as two master bedrooms. With all that space, the kids still had to play in the basement. LOL!

We may have been cramped with our one tiny bathroom for the five of us to share, but I also think our small home taught me a lot. When my co-workers (I'm the youngest by far, oddly enough) recently chatted about how the first few years of their marriages were the "hardest" and the "worst" because they had to learn to live with someone, I couldn't understand. What was so hard about sharing a space? DH and I happily share a 4x8 bathroom (and that's counting the floor space in the shower!), and we rather enjoy tripping over one another. I guess it takes us both back to old times. DH spent many years sitting on barrels and eating off his lap. They slept on the floor at one point, until they could get mattress. Of course they played outside! They'd have been crazy not to!

As we work on updating our home and look ahead to the home we want to build, we think a lot about what our "ideal" is. I find that, increasingly, I want more and more outdoor space, and less and less indoor space. This is interesting since we plan our home to be a place where we raise a large family.

Unfortunately, to buy a small home around here, you must buy a home in what they call a "cottage" neighborhood. They are cute front the front. It has a detached rear garage and NO yard. The space between the garage and house is your yard. They communities are lovely, but the planners have it all wrong if designing for families (perhaps all right for a retiree who doesn't happen to want lawn work?). We want a smaller home, and it's the outdoor space that makes living in a smaller home work. Your yard is your great room. Your parties happen outside.

Having lived in large cities for the last set of years (grew up in a small town near no cities), I see a lot of the types of housing they are describing in the article. Apparently, ammenities sell! You'll see neighborhoods with rows and rows of one home, but the amenities options are maxed out. I can also relate to wanting a walkable community, but I don't know that I'd live in an urban area to get it.

I, too, was reminded of Ross Chapin's "pocket neighborhoods" when reading. I can see a spin on that working, but for me, I wouldn't want that exact thing at this point in my life. The idea of small homes nestled around a central lawn and walkway is appealing, but I'd better have a big yard out back that stretches into wooded space. :) Perhaps they are an attempt to create a family among neighbors, as so many seem to be yearning for family relationships these days. I also wonder....with so many young people moving from college housing into the world of work, perhaps the type of communities being created are popular because they help with the shell shock? There really is a jolt when you go from life surrounded by friends to life surrounded by people you don't know, and it's amplified if they also have little in common with you.

I see people my age splitting two ways, and it makes me wonder if changes are ahead. Yes, many still see "big" as successful. And, they seem driven to prove they have reached this "status," whether they can afford it or not. I also see some who are shifting their priorities and are looking for "home," focusing more on what that really means and how their homes impact the earth on which they sit. I find myself cheering them on, thinking, "Stand up for what you believe in! Show us that success really is!" (NOT that people in big homes don't/can't do that) In my life, I see success as being content with leaving within your means. But, I also feel the pressure to conform being thrown at me from all kinds of places, and I see many give in to that pressure. It's sad to me. Why can't we be ok with not appearing to have great things? Why must my house be as big as someone else's, my car as new, my clothes as stylish? The idea of being expected to keep up, or measure up, really bothers me.

So, as a Gen Y'er, what do I want? I want a loving home. a stable home. a thoughtful design. a piece of land where my children can play and I can plant. a chance to make choices that make minimize our energy use. a space to gather and laugh. a space to create. a space to teach my children that there is more to life than "big." I want a place where life happens and memories are made. Yeah, that can happen in any sized home, but I love the way it feels in a small one...where you can get away from each other, but you're always within reach.

Then again, the article called me a "family dawdler." Haha! Gosh, I guess at 28, I'm now too old to be a momma. That's news to me! For instance.... These days, you almost must go to college (and, increasingly, graduate school) in order to support yourself, no matter how small you choose to live. So, if Gen Y starts with 1980, how is a 30 year old dawdling with starting a family if he was stuck in college and grad school until he was 25? There's a good chance he's just now finding time to meet his wife, for goodness' sake! Yeah, some of them put off the responsibility of a family, but others just need time. I think it's responsibile to get your life in order and set your priorities (and even build a foundation in your relationship) before you add kids to the mix.

As for the Generation after mine... I teach, and I have a lovely set of kids who love the great outdoors. There is hope!

Well Young Gardener, that was a very thoughtful and heartfelt post. Thank you for sharing.

I'm 50 and shared a lot of the family experiences you did. Very small home, one bathroom, three siblings and two parents. And you are right, it really didn't seem like it was that big of a deal. But life did function differently then. We only picked up (antenna) three TV stations and one of those was fuzzy. Programming was tailored around the family, I can't remember what came on during the morning hours because I was either outside playing or at school, soap operas came on around noon and ran through about 4:00pm, they local stations aired old movies, re-runs of Batman or Superman from 4:00 until 6:00. We kids came home and rushed through homework so we could watch a little of that. Dad came home and dinner hit the table at 5:00 so the TV went off until aroudn 6:00 when dad would turn on the network news until around 6:30. We were either still outside playing pick-up baseball or riding bikes until mom started calling us in for bath time. The early sitcoms like I Love Lucy came on during the early evening hours then the TV series stuff would hit about 8:00, Ironsides, Gunsmoke, I Dream of Jeannie, etc. We were in bed by 9:00 so I have no clue what was on at that hour. Then on Saturday mornings we had our block of cartoons. The way it was blocked out everyone had programming they wanted to see at appropriate times for them and no one was fighting over what to watch so one TV served us just fine. We had one couch and two chairs and for the life of me I can't remember how that arrangment handled six people but it did. It was a simpler, more manageable time. I wonder if you Gen Yers will look back and reminisce about the good ole days when all you had were two dimensional high def plasma TV's, one in each room, and only 250 channels!

So who really decides on what the future looks like? Builders claim they only build what the people want and people say they have to buy what the builders have built. It's the old chicken and egg question all over again. Time will tell.

Scott

This has been an interesting thread, and I think it has made us dig a little deeper in order to listen to the inner voice that is telling us what we really want and not what we "should" want.

When I was growing up my parents bought an old farmhouse that was about 100 years old. Dad rewired the place so it wouldn't burn down, and we had to help knock out some old plaster walls so they could be insulated and then sheetrocked. It was a two story with our bedrooms upstairs. At the time all we had was one bathroom on the main floor, and only a bathtub (no shower). We never thought anything of it or thought it was a hardship.

I am very spoiled now and want my bathroom attatched to my bedroom. Oh, and a nice shower. I can give up the tub for a nice shower. I don't need the house to be large, and I'm not out to impress anyone but myself. We will have no debt this time around and actually own it. I consider owning your own home outright, no matter how humble, is true wealth, and I surely feel very blessed.

Interestingly, I know a couple of people who are truly wealthy, and I mean wealthy with a capital W, and they live in modest homes and have a demeanor like you and I. It's the "wannabes" that I have known who need all the pompous "look at me" glitter, and they are up to their eye teeth in debt. They generally do not seem to be very satisfied with life.

Can't judge a book by it's cover.

My son told me about a farmer he knew and he told my son this story about an experience he had. He decided one day he wanted a new car, a nice one. He jumped off his tractor and went into town, as is, and went to one of the local dealers. He was ignored for some time before a snobby sales man finally came over and then proceeded to snub him with disinterest. The farmer left. He went to another dealer in town. This time a young man took the time to show him around and generally gave him his interest and good service. The farmer selected a car and when the young man asked about arranging the financing, this man opened his wallet and counted off the cash needed to pay for the car, plus a little bonus for the young salesman. Then he went back to his tractor. Goes to show that you can have mud on your jeans and still be pretty well off. This guy didn't give a hoot about impressing anyone.

Generation Y will have a tough time, for the most part, being able to pay for all the stuff they think they need to be happy. Our son has a masters degree and can't get a job in his field. He's working, but is bummed out that it's not what he really wants to be doing. We have a friend whose son is an electrical engineer and he can't find a job either. Things are bad.

The material desires is not totally the fault of the young people who are trapped in this type of mentality though. Television and marketing in general subtly tries to make one feel they are't desireable or attractive human beings unless they buy their things. They have a great deal of inner work ahead of them, I'm afraid.

Much of our own generation has also done this to their children by falling for this type of thinking as well, and then killing themselves working to buy every material thing they thought their children should have. Misguided, but I think it was done out of love. The kids would have benefitted much more by spending time with mom and dad, and not left to eat microwave dinners. Instead, there is a generation of young people who are spoiled and unequipped to handle some harsh realities that are starting to unfold. Our kids had more than I did growing up, but they still had to earn their way a bit, and help with chores. They resented it at the time, but they are all hard working and are proud when an "older" person remarks about their values. They smile and say, yep, mom and dad made us earn what we got. If we wanted the $50 jeans we had to pay for half. (This was when $50 was considered an outrageous price for a pair of jeans).

Lots of good thoughts here.

Hey Steph, I'm thrilled that you feel the same way I do about the kitchen. It goes against the "norm" and because of that I sometimes second guess myself. You're keeping me on track. The only thing I'm worried about is reaching my windows over the kitchen sink. I'm only about 5'3, so I will be stretching a bit because we are having 10 inch walls full of insulation, which sets the windows even farther away. The window company we are dealing with suggested casement windows and dropping them down to counter height. The style of our house dictates double hungs, but these would be in the back anyway overlooking our woods. Any thoughts on counter height windows?

I should post some pictures of our solar panels. Maybe when the windows are in and the log siding is on the house would be a good time. We will be ordering the windows Saturday and they will take about a month or so to get, afterwhich we'll get the siding on. It is scary making an absolute decision on windows and placement! We have most of the window framing done and the rest will be finished by mid week next week. I had to take a two week breather. In the meantime we can get some wiring and plumbing started. My husband has designed the solar system, and I DO need to learn how it is set up in case something should ever happen to him. I've heard him tell people not to go to a "solar type store", as they have the panels marked up to a ridiculous price.

I have 5 children, ages 33-47 so none of them are 'gen y'ers.' That being the case, they all eat as a family at the kitchen table almost every evening, and will forever have a DR for holiday dinners where they enjoy getting a little dressed up and use china rather than the everday dishes, as well as their best manners. This was the way I was raised and the way I raised my own children. Taking into consideration it isn't for everyone, but it's always been our tradion, as well as the tradional way of doing things in a society where traditions are fast fading.

A mansion certainly isn't necessary to follow the tradions of bygone years, just time and a little more effort that most people don't want to put into making a day extra special. Like traditons, the time spent and the memories made with family never fade. ;o)

Sandy- I'd love to learn about your solor, and I hope you post! I don't know if you've been over to Kitchens, but counter height windows are discussed often. They are stunning as casments, I think.

Scott- Thanks for the memories! I grew up with one sketchy tv station (and one tv, of course). My family sat down and watched an hour each evening, right before my 8:00 bedtime. On Saturday mornings, the three kids would get up, and carry quilts, afgans, and pillows into a pile in front of the tv to watch morning cartoons. Our basement had seating for two, so mom and dad watched tv from the chairs, and we kids watched from the floor. Of course, my mom was forever telling us to move back, or else we'd ruin our eyes. :)

I'm not a gen-y or even a gen-x but I'll admit we do eat in front of the tv but then we don't have a usable dining space in this little house and when we have guests it's easier and less cramped to go outside and eat at the table out there.

I don't have good memories of family meal time, there was always conflict in our house growing up for anything to ever to be peaceful or relaxed, and DH's memories of dinner time weren't that good either, his father was militant about table manners so he made everyone miserable by yelling at them every time they so much as put an elbow on the table or didnt hold their fork properly so I can certainly relate to Krycek's comments on this, maybe that's why we can live quite easily without a dining space because it doesnt have those nice memories around it.

trance I am so with you on the family table thing. My father was such a drunk by dinner time he was impossible.I remember mother trying to get him fed before he got too drunk. Made for pretty non family friendly meals.

BUT this is not why we do not eat around the table. My husband just likes to eat at the TV in his recliner. 25 years I give up trying to change that. So in our small house we have a sitting room in our dinning room space. I really like it this way and use it often.

While eating or watching TV at any time we visit with each other. We visit with each other all day. No kids no family no dinning room table. LOL

We each need to find what makes us feel happy and relaxed while eating our meals. Certainly no one should eat in such a way that causes bad memories and feelings to surface. There is no right or wrong way.

I do, however, feel that people raising children should have meals together with their children, and make that time special and happy. My personal opinion in this case is that TV should not be a part of this particular time together. This is a time a family should be bonding together without distractions. It teaches children how to have loving relationships (as long as the adults involved are not troubled individuals). Most youngsters grow up feeling unsettled when more attention is paid elsewhere rather than with them.

Once the nest is empty couples can and should do what they enjoy together during their meals. A sitting room in a dining space is unique and can serve the same purpose as sitting at a table. The chairs are just different.

Sandy

We were raised with only a dining table to eat at. No bar, no counter, no deck dining options. I think it contributed to a more mannerly dinner time. I'm not sure of this, but I have a sneaking suspicion it is true.

I notice that the young granddaughters who have a more relaxed eating setup, with a tall granite topped table in the kitchen where they grab a bit before leaving on some after school activity, well, they do not have as good an understanding of what good manners is all about.

It is interesting that this has become an issue at the college level when they realize that students ready to apply for jobs must be instructed in how to conduct themselves at a dining table. How to hold a knife to cut their meat, how to choose the proper utinsel, the polite way to pass the gravy etc. But it is something that many schools are now TEACHING.

That being said, I've never really felt it necessary to eat every meal at a dining table. I now want a window seat as part of my dining experience, me sitting on that bench, and my DH sitting opposite. I also think the dining room should have more functionality than simply eating at table once or twice a day. It doesn't pull its weight in a small house, unless it can contribute to our spacial needs. So I want it to have two pantry cabs, a filing cabinet beneath the window seat, the small high bar on the opposite wall to give me a casual space to sit while watching over the cooking.

Yes indeed those with children need to devote time to educating them how to be pleasant respectful dining companions. I think it will help them grow up respecting other people, and the art of companionship and how to carry on a good conversation.

Just my thoughts.

I wonder if the part of the "American Dream" that children will have a better life than their parents did isn't in jeopardy.

Boomers can be considered guilty of excesses their parents couldn't even have imagined - to see much of what they worked for evaporate in the economic downturn. Inheritances they may have wanted to leave are, instead, going to be used to keep their own heads above water through the rest of their working careers and old age.

It's possible many Boomers never did become empty nesters with children unemployed, underemployed and crippled with debt returning home to live. Or they find themselves raising their grandchildren due to unfortunate circumstances.

And those who returned to the nest might end up with the big suburban home by default - simply because they were still there when their parents passed away.

Someone is going to have to seep into the overabundance of empty housing stock. If things get better, the lure of a bigger house at the right price will leave the urban condo or high rise apartment behind in search of that old dream of owning some space. The night life, can walk anywhere and find a Starbucks or a vendor selling fresh vegetables concept is fun, but how fun is a 1 bedroom condo when a child comes along?

Both my parents grew up in houses where the kitchen was the heart of the home and that continued when I was growing up. We always had formal diningrooms but that was reserved for Easter, Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years, birthdays - occasions when there was generally a houseful. We never ate in front of the TV - meal time was time to connect.

Along with megahouses with inefficient, wasted square footage, the younger generation doesn't seem to want our "things" either - the beautiful long out of production china, crystal, silver, linens, etc. Is it considered just so much clutter left over from a lifestyle they don't embrace (at least for the time being). I wonder if that will change when they tire of picking up something at the deli and only have a paper plate to throw out saving them plenty of electronic toy time. I hope so otherwise it goes on the auction block.

Kinda hard to make any real judgments - are things better? worse? or merely different.

"I wonder if the part of the "American Dream" that children will have a better life than their parents did isn't in jeopardy."

It's definitely in jeopardy...the only way for me to make as much as my Mom does is to get a degree. And she doesn't have one.

I think many people got lost along the way, but I also feel that many are seeking out things that will have meaning in their lives.

I also feel the American Dream is still there, but people will have to make some effort to have it. Scratch cooked meals and a vegetable garden combined with correct farm contacts if one cannot raise their own beef or milk, allows a drastic cost in basic living expenses. With one bucket of wheat and a grain mill, I can make enough bread and baked goods to save hundreds of dollars, and it isn't full of chemicals.

We purchase used vehicles that are in excellent condition, as we refuse to pay a bank payments on a car or truck. We do not purchase "wants" any more on credit cards. Unless something essential to life itself is needed, if one does not have the cash to pay for it, they can't afford it. Period. Purchasing a house that is actually something that is in a person's income bracket. Not what someone says they are "qualified" for, and then when the hot water tank breaks they can't afford a new one. I do my own paintintg, cleaning, and yard work. You would be amazed at what a great life style we have on minimal money. We are free. I would never go back to the hamster wheel we were on. By building our own home ourselves, and doing all the work ourselves that we are physically capable of, it has enabled us to actually be able to build one at all. Though I originally wanted a loft in this house, I decided I would rather have a single story, done with quality and no bank loan, and with our own sweat equity than to try and have it all. I'm thrilled with it. Believe it or not the average person can learn to wire a house and do the plumbing.

Krycek, I'm betting you can do just fine on less money and still have your dreams. It's figuring out what is deep in your core versus what may just be an idea planted by society and marketing. And then working hard for it. By that I don't necessarily mean working at a job and then handing out all the earnings to someone to do it all for you, which is very expensive. It will most likely mean working at a job, and then buying the raw materials for much less money, and then doing it yourself. That is actually the American Dream, and is how people in the past achieved it. Marketing, credit card companies, and banks have since convinced people the only way to have it was to pad the marketer and bank wallet, and that they were incompetent to do for themselves. Guess what. They have mansions in Hawii and the people they ripped off will be lucky to have a job at all, because a good share of the jobs are overseas now. We enabled that one.

Back on the issue of kitchens, I think having a nice table in the kitchen, rather than an island that kids grab and go from, is not only a warm way to connect, but also allows the teaching of proper manners. That is not to say that having a formal dining area for special gatherings is wrong. It depends if one is the type that enjoys a formal dining room or not. It would be wasted space in my house. And it is not to say an island is wrong either. I'm trying to figure out how to have some extra workspace when I need it, and still allow my table in there. If I can't fit both, the table wins. An island is not a kitchen table, whether there is a stool pulled up to it or not. It will always feel like a counter.

A nice farm table in my kitchen can double as a place to roll out pie dough, as well as cutting out a quilt top. If a kitchen is designed correctly, it can be a wonderful place to hang out and have a cup of coffee too.

Sandy

"My husband just likes to eat at the TV in his recliner. 25 years I give up trying to change that. So in our small house we have a sitting room in our dinning room space. I really like it this way and use it often. "

yep same here shades. Even if we had a proper dining room I dont think DH would use it. We take our dinner into the LR and put on a comedy show but we don't tune each other out, it's also a time where we chat and catch up.

oh it seems I was wrong above, I am a genX after all but I've always noticed a big difference in attitude with people only 4 or 5 years younger than me so I think these gen x, gen y labels are probably too broad age wise to really be that useful. I always thought gen x was the grunge listening over the top rebellious group that I was too old for at the time so I didnt even identify with them.

I will add a couple more comments.

One, I thank my lucky stars I never had children.I see so many of our friends having to take the rebounder's back in.Their kids too. In my youth that was never an option to go back. I knew it and made do and made it do no matter what life threw at me.There were hard times.I learned it was the best thing that happened to me. As I see it the parents today are not helping their children by taking them back in. Having the adult kid work at McDonalds for awhile or walmart will teach them to not over extend because they will learn the value of money.

Sandy I totally agree with you on the pay as you go and if you do not have the money you cannot buy the wants. Guess I am pretty hard nosed about all of it. People did this to themselves. I am very sorry it happened to so many. But................. I am not going to throw myself under the bus for some one else that could not handle their money.No one helped me when I was down and out. by not getting help I learned the hard knocks. OK off my soapbox. Sorry................

We had a great time building our house together many years ago. Was so much work and the three of us, we had a friend to help, did it all. Like Sandy,saving all the money in the process. We had to learn lots of things. Do lots of things we did not really want to do.. the house was darling.

I am not at all against a family dinner at the kitchen table. We just do not have family or a table. I do agree with kids it would be so much more important.

"By that I don't necessarily mean working at a job and then handing out all the earnings to someone to do it all for you, which is very expensive. It will most likely mean working at a job, and then buying the raw materials for much less money, and then doing it yourself. That is actually the American Dream, and is how people in the past achieved it. "

I totally agree with that. If we had to pay someone to do every repair, paint, build or make everything for us, we would be in debt, but there is a real sense of independence that you get from doing these things yourself and the money you save is huge, and you really do appreciate things a lot when your sweat equity went into them. There's going to be a time when this sort of thing gets beyond you anyway, but previous generations did their own repairs and painting etc

Sandy808,

Regarding your post "The feedback on kitchen design from our children lately has been for us to replicate the essence of that kitchen in the house my husband and I are in the process of building now. It was a happy place, felt cosey, and it was a breeze to cook, serve, and clean things up in that kitchen." Can you give us more detail or a sketch of this kitchen that your referred to? I'm in the process of designing a small home, and want to create a kitchen like the one you describe. Pleeaasse ! : )

The motivational speaker Zig Zigler once said something like, "if you really want to get ahead, find out which way the crowd is going and turn around and run the other way". The small home movement is a great example of that philosophy. And small spaces don't always have to mean small square footage. Multiple generations living under one roof, albeit one large roof, could still be considered embracing the principles of our little movement. Economy, efficiency and reality. With the economic downturn we are facing, maybe the concept of boarding houses needs to make a resurgence. In Japan, it is quite common for the family to live in the rural areas and the father works in the city Monday through Friday and sometimes Saturday, living in the modern day equivalent of a boarding house, and returning home only on the weekends. Have we become so spoiled as a society that we won't even consider such options today? Have we hit a point fiscally where we need to expect homeless people to contribute to their care? Maybe cities need to create farms where the homeless have to help with growing their food. Or perhaps they could perform some duties for the City/County in return for the housing and food they receive. Sounds harsh but Cities, Counties and States are all facing monumental budget shortfalls today and the loudest answer seems to be more and higher taxes.

It may sound like I am digressing but from some of the comments I have heard in this thread, I hear people who have chosen to go against the grain and live below their means. Isn't that sacrifice enough? Could society as a whole benefit from the values we embrace? Just like the parable of the ant and the grasshopper, it seems to me that the over indulgent grasshoppers keep wanting more and more of my paycheck. Shouldn't society as a whole seek a similar path before turning to us ants to bail them out? If so, then we should be more vocal about options like the paths we have chosen.

As a Banker, I have a hard time keeping quiet about the contradictions I see on a daily basis. Too often I see the following example. People come in to see me to pre-qualify for a mortgage and their credit score is below the minimum. They are upset, incredulous, argumentative, sometimes even downright hostile. And all I can do is bite my tongue as I look down and see perfect nail salon nails, the latest and greatest smartphones ( I carry a free flip-phone), the average vehicle they are paying for, and they often have two, is $40,000 (mine is a 2001 with 265,000 miles in it), they owe money to Best Buy, Victoria Secret, Zales and other fluff retailers and pay those accounts perfectly but then they have a string of medical collections with piddley individual balances. When I explain why I can't help them, they are mad at me or my bank for not "helping people out" or not having "a program" for people like them. It's frustrating. I want to tell them we do have a program like that, it's called the R-E-N-T program. We in the right-sized home movement exemplify personal responsibility but as a society, we are loosing that concept.

Scott

Oh Scott, how frustrating your job sounds! It seems so many people have the attitude you've mentioned, and it seems to be getting worse. My husband and I don't even like being around mainstream society anymore.

CCinTX, I will try to paint a picture with words about my old kitchen. I am going strictly by memory as my old pictures are still all packed away, and will be until we finish building our house. (One of these days I will learn how to put pictures and drawings on GardenWeb).

It was aproxinately 16 feet by 16 feet (bare walls before adding cabinetry, etc.). It was basically a U-shape, but the left side of the "U" was a peninsula with base cabinets, and it was "pass through" style with uppers suspended between the kitchen wall and a stub wall near the entry to the kitchen. the peninsula was 8 feet long. We had an open floor plan, and though the pass through had been intended to be between the kitchen and a planned formal dining area, we opted to put our living room furniture in there. It had a window wall of about 10 or 12 feet of casement windows, with the same view of the countryside as the kitchen.

So...basically a U-shape with the peninsula on the left, (which had stools up to it for additional seating from the living troom side), the stove, dishwasher, and sink on the center wall, and the refrigerator, pantry cabinet, and a built-in matching desk with (cookbook) bookcase above it on the other leg of the "U".

I had room for a second refrigerator at the end of the desk. Fortunately it looked fine there. There was a six foot bank of connected casement windows over the sink, and we had a wonderful view of the countryside from it as well. The table fit in the center with plenty of room to walk around it, but when I mopped the floor I would have liked a little more room.

The back wall of the main kitchen area was an additionl 6 ft. deep by the length of the kitchen laundry center. It contained the washer, dryer, utility sink, and hot water tank. I could fit laundry products on a shelf above the W&D, and (barely) fit a couple of laundry baskets. It worked but again, I would have liked a little more room in there, mostly in depth. The kitchen was not closed off from the rest of the house, and I had views out windows and sliding glass doors from front to back. Because of the peninsula the kitchen didn't just run randomly into the living area either. It had it's own identity.

My cabinets were custom made by a local wood worker. It wasn't a fancy kitchen, but the materials used in it were beautiful and of high quality. I canned and froze hundreds of jars of food, and made millions of meals in there. When I had a party, we all ate in there. There was noise, much laughter, and some tears in there. There was life in that kitchen. My husband recently remarked that I never complained about that kitchen.

If I were still in that house today, and could tweak things, I would have expanded the dimensions of the kitchen to 18 or 19 feet square (bare walls before cabinetry), and the laundry center would become a large food pantry.

What I am planning in my new house will be very similar, but perhaps not exact. My sketches are very rough yet. I am allowing at least 19 foot by 19 foot area for the kitchen. One of my ideas is to have the U shape as in my old kitchen, with no uppers over the peninsula, to help separate the kitchen from the great room a bit, but still be open to it. I could extend the counter depth so that seating from the great room would be more comfortable, and it would have base cabinets. (We are not island or peninsula diners, but it comes in handy for grandkids).

So the peninsula will be the left leg of the "U". The center leg of this "U" will have my stove, sink and dishwasher (8 feet of double hung windows over sink area, looking out at my woods). The right side of the U will have my refrigerator and a hutch for dishes. This will be followed by 8 ft. sliding glass doors, french style. I am hoping our table will line up well with the glass doors without blocking the side that opens.

I may have to tweak the dimensions of the kitchen a bit if I decide to put a small work island with base cabinets in there as well. I could have the island and no peninsula, or the peninsula and no island. Maybe I can have both.....not sure yet. I may do the peninsula and then buy a Boos block island on casters so I can move it to a wall if it bugs me. Regardless, our table will be IN the kitchen, and near the large sliding glass doors.

I am still working out the details of walk in pantry and laundry area, but they will be behind my whole kitchen work area and table.

What I LOVED about having the peninsula near my stove was the 8 feet of counter it gave me to the left of my stove, going around the bend to the stove. I also had counter to the right side of the stove, and the sink was close by. Then there was more counter to the right of the sink, going around the bend to the refrigerator. All I had to do if I needed more work space was turn around to my kitchen table. I like having lots of counter adjoing a stove because it makes things not only convenient, but safer.

I want an evolved "unfitted" look to the cabinetry. Like a few generations of family had lived there. Maybe some natural wood mixed with some milk painted pieces. Hutches rather than the standard lower and upper cabinets. Some glass fronts. I can't reach beyond the first shelf of an upper so why have many, or any at all. I am also planning on base drawyers and pull outs so I don't have to dig in the confines of cabinets while on my knees, and then haul a cast iron dutch oven up from there.

In contrast, the house we sold 14 months ago had a kitchen arrangement a kitchen designer and architect cooked up. Gorgeous to look at. Helped sell the house. I HATED it. The refrigerator and stove were on one wall. Across from the stove and fridge, and several feet away, was my other cabinetry, and the sink in a shaped connected peninsula overlooking the great room. The kitchen was large, and everything was spread out.

What exactly did I hate the most? I hated the marathons back and forth ACROSS the kitchen from stove to sink, refrigerator to sink, dishes to cabinet, and dishes to and from the table. People sat on the couch and watched me work. No one was in the kitchen with me. I felt like I was in the living room doing dishes. It was like a beautiful, cold, maiden. No soul. Like so many kitchens in the magazines these days. We started eating out more and more.

The house we are building now has a soul to it already, and it's just the shell so far. We're still "drying" it in. We expect to have it finished by May and I can't wait.

I have one other comment to make. The only thing kitchen magazines are good for is if you want to replicate having someone build a certain style hutch or cabinet, or you like a certain detail or window. I can pick all the kitchens apart now and 99% of the kitchens in magazines are totally disfunctional.

Basically, reherse in your mind every little nuance you have for the way you like to cook. I slid my kitchen table back and forth in this mobile home to see what clearances I like between the table and counters, etc. I now know that if I have an island, I want 48 inches between it and a counter, and no more, and no less. I went through motions of how much room I like to have to lift a kettle of pasta and which direction I wanted to swing to the sink. Some people like to go left to right. Some like the opposite. See what you naturally gravitate to. How you like to unload a dishwasher and where you would like to put the dishes away, in a perfect world.

It's a lot of work, and I will be so happy when it's done!

Sandy