We have a 1950 sqft home, 2 adults and 3 kids. Main level has living/dining, kitchen, 3 beds and 1 bath. Basement level has family room (leading to yard), 1 bedroom (office) and bath. Our remodeling goals are:

- Updated, more open kitchen (heart of the home and all that)
- 2nd bath on main level since that's where everyone sleeps (ideally a full bath for the kids so we can have a dedicated master bath)

Current options (both of which add about 125 sq ft to house) are:

Plan A:

Pros of this Plan:
Spacious island with seating
Slightly better kitchen storage?
Very open flow

Cons of this Plan:
No real entry - walk into middle of dining and kitchen
Dining area "floats"
Table is a bit of a hike from kitchen
Curb appeal? Either flat facade with popout porch or a popped out front door area which seems very strange and isn't common around here
too open - railroad car effect? loud?

PLAN B

Pros:
more defined entry with symmetrical casings to frame living room and kitchen/dining
Table close to food
Curb appeal: bay window, front door set in

Cons:
More casual (table in kitchen)
No island seating/slightly smaller kitchen
Not sure whether people at table could interact with those in living room

The dining area in both plans is really small which is frustrating for me. Front door can't move any further towards living room than it does in Plan B due to garage underneath. The setbacks and lot shape are restrictive of adding any more sqfootage to the front/side of house. So...

Are either one of these plans keepers?
Which plan do you prefer?
How can I improve them?

Thanks so much!

This is not the same lay out but it does enter into dinning room I took this picture standing at the front door. Living room to the right in the next picture.

This house is about 1850 SQ FT. Was a great house to live in.

I agree with Shades...I think the first plan looks better, too. Seeing them next to each other, it seems like it's not as crowded and you have that extra eating space, in the kitchen.

I saw this picture on your other thread, from Eliza. I don't know if it's affordable, but a box bay window like this would be beautiful in the dining area (plan 1) and really give it a focal point. I like the little wall, behind the front door, but not the one to the left. It seems to be blocking your entry a bit...especially if you could bump out a window seat, like this.

From Kitchen plans

Shades- I like your picture! Such a nice dining room/kitchen layout :)

I like it because it's open without being warehouse open.

In option 1, I don't like that you would be able to see straight from the front door into bedroom 2. That can be easily remedied though, if you slid the bathroom to the left, and extended the wall like in option 2.

In option 2, the kitchen is smaller than option 1, but it is still a very functional size. And, I don't think size is always the most important thing. I am probably biased, but I don't have a huge need for a separate (from the kitchen) dining space. Having an eat-in kitchen, the way option 2 is, is very functional for me (esp in a house your size).

Other things: you took the time to draw in TV in option 2 in the eating area, so I would guess it is something important to you/you'd like to have. But, where is that in option 1?

If you draw sight lines from the front door in option 2, you cannot see the MBedroom, or any of the other bedrooms, or anything. So, I don't feel it is "too open". But, it does enter you into a comfortable living space (which I prefer).

Here is a question: How would you floor the area in option 1? Would the dining area be on carpet (ick!)? Would it all be hardwood for flow of space? I think option 2 gives you more flexibility in this regard as well.

Option #2 is nice, but the seating around the dining table looks very tight. I think it would be difficult to get to the end of the table, by the window seat, if people were already sitting down.

Domino- Don't forget that whichever option you choose...special touches like window seats, bookcases, and other built ins, will give you a lot of charm, without taking up too much floor space.

Anyway it has all been changed now. The people after us put in the floor below and it is a very nice floor. Not my choice but it is nice. But it made me crazy how they crammed the kitchen table up to the island so I did not show this picture.

I am sticking with the first plan. I had trouble with the space division in that house I am showing pictures of because of the no mans land created in the central area.

shades - thanks so much for the picture - I do know some people that have done a nice job with dining room entry spaces and it helps to see yours.

kirkhall - I like Plan B better too and we have all hardwood floors. I was just playing with the TV placement but it's not important. I have a little counter kitchen TV that will fit in somewhere no matter what we do.

lavender - You're right - the little touches (built ins, half walls, plate racks, bay windows) are critical - especially when you don't have a lot of space. I appreciate your eye for those opportunities.

As for the big open space, in Plan 2...just move the piano, so it's against the new bathroom wall, opposite the front door. That will open up the path to the living room...and with the piano bench, it will fill in that space, nicely. My mom's done that before, in her house. It looks great (a piano is a nice focal point) but will still give you enough room for guests to enter. If your entrance is too small/tight...then people get crowded and it's hard to get a crowd, into the house and out of the weather.

Does this help? The contractors you're talking to should be suggesting some of these things...especially the change to the master bath.

Oh, and if you can't change the master bath entrance for whatever reason...just put a french door with frosted glass (or other door) from the living room wall to the hall bath...opening up against the hall bath. This will also give you the feeling of a 'suite' and people will not be able to see into the bathroom, from the living room. Again, not a difficult change and makes a huge difference! :)

Also, would a new family coming in be looking to have the master on the same floor as children's bedrooms, or different floors?

I know for us, at this age of children (youngest 3.5), I can consider being on 2 levels for sleeping. But, that wouldn't have worked even 1 year ago; let alone 7 yrs ago. Who will be looking to buy your house when you are ready to move on/out?

I'd look at the average age of people buying into your neighborhood. That could tell you what your target buyer would be .

Kirkhall and marti8a- you are right - it would likely be a family with young kids looking at our home given the area and they might want to be on the same level with the kids. I forgot about that.

Lav - yes - in the plan I showed the GC I had added a door between living wall and hall bath - he still thought it looked like an "unusual" layout that would seem odd.

So - I just saw Summerfield's fantastic work in another thread. I will try to post a thread to beg for his/her advice!

Meanwhile, I am going back to work on my plain old kitchen remodel plan as the larger remodel just doesn't seem to be coming together.

Hey, you gotta know where your light is coming from, right?
:)

Here is the lot overview with compass:

Here is the current upper floor layout (L = living, D = dining, K= kitchen):

Downstairs is family room, bedroom (used as office) and a full bath. I don't have a pic of that right now. Office is under the master, family room is under the south corner of house. Bath under the bath.

Thanks for looking!

Domino- If it were me, I'd repost and put your main floor and basement floor plans, so everyone can see, what you have now. Then, explain what you'd like to have, with the remodel. I'd focus on the kitchen, depening on whether you really need to add another bathroom, or not.

Hopefully, Summerfield and others will come up with some new ideas and just work off your existing situation...not all the changes already proposed. It would help to see the basement, so we can tell what possible down there, too.

Sound good? I hope you'll get some great ideas and let everyone come up with ideas, regardless of what's already been suggested. Be sure you explain the porch can be incorporated into the kitchen, but the front door can only be moved slightly. Hope this helps :)

I read over the posts in the link LL posted, and agree with many over there who said that expanding onto the porch would be very expensive, even if you could do the work yourselves.

I like your layout as it is now, but also understand being trapped in the kitchen when everyone else is watching tv or talking in another room.

I like most of what tbb123 suggested, in this plan

Except I'd suggest a one piece oven/range where she put the range. They're usually cheaper and save space. That would save you having to move the sink, dishwasher,etc. and you could put the microwave into the new base cabinet.

Several have suggested banquettes, but I wouldn't do that unless you don't build it in. I don't think most buyers have banquettes and then there wouldn't be a place for their table & chairs.

Well - I continue to be amazed at the kindness of strangers! Thank you for all of your support and help!

Lav - Per your comment I am posting the downstairs floorplan. We can bump out (maybe 10x15?) starting at the bedroom window edge and going behind the bath.

marti8 - I have thought about reusing the cab carcasses but the shallow depths are troublesome! They have already had new doors put on once. I think they must be original to the house. I am in for getting new ones as we are desperate for pot/pan pullouts, etc. I completely agree with all of your suggestions about my kitchen only remodel plan and your POV on the banquette. We are thinking alike.

Sunmmerfield - Thank you thank you! Your pretty drawings are very seductive for someone who lives and breathes remodeling right now and I appreciate your time and your talent. So - I take it you prefer the more open floor plan and a top floor only remodel! I really like the idea of setting off the kitchen with the archways and peninsula. It makes the traditionalist in me more comfortable with an "open" plan. And I love that you thought about the cold air return and even squeezed in a small linen closet. The living room window seat is sweet but unlikely for us given the steep drop off to the driveway and the fact that we replaced that big window just a few years ago. ...Questions:

- Front Door placement: I like the way the front door does not open with a sightline straight down the hall. But I am still uneasy about it opening right INTO the room and so close to the bar seating (feels pub like and more like a back door a little). What do you think about bumping out to the front 18 inches for a little more entry space? According to my front setback I can bump out that much anywhere from where you have the little console table to the first kitchen cabs. I've always had a front door that opens right into the living room and I'd love a little further demarcation between entry and kitchen/dining but perhaps it is not realistic with this space?

- Light: Right now I have three 4.5 foot windows across kitchen/dining. The new plan replaces those with the large garden window (and maybe front door sidelights?). So I am thinking I might need a skylight? Any suggestions on where to put one (or two - I think the hall would need one too). Or I could add a small window to the right of the range for more light? I've sometimes thought about putting a window on the other side of the hearth where we currently have the piano (TV is downstairs) but it's north facing so not sure how much light it would add...

Again - thank you all. Just when I give up hope on making the big remodel work, you all fan the flames of possibility!

I made the stub wall next to the front door only 2' wide - to match the 2' stub created by the bathroom (at least that's what you see on the dining room side.) You would still feel as though you weren't entering right into the dining room.

And I think your contractor is wrong - that entry space is very useful as a nice breath of fresh air. Both LR and DR will feel larger.

The key to this (hopefully) feeling like a large space with connections to each other, but not like an eat-in kitchen, is the divider - a wall but with a window set in it. (I tried to show it with a glass-doored cabinet, but it would be minus the cabinet.:)

This kitchen, while not large, should function pretty well. Lots of pantry space, The sink and range in an L with decent prep space between. A good size double bowl can fit in the sink cabinet.

the front door can , of course , be pushed to the left , slightly , but i was taking into consideration what is happening outside ... your house is already located very close to the street , and the plan moves the interior wall out about 5-feet ... it will be less expensive to keep the door flush , and use the 18" for roof above the doorway ... also , it will be more aesthetically pleasing if you have a little room for shrubbery and , perhaps , a small tree between the front stoop and the drop-off at the driveway retaining wall ...

the large window , with the transom , at the kitchen , and a half- or full-glass door at the side entry should give you plenty of natural light ... you will be removing the depth of the porch , so the volume of light will be greatly increased ...

no reason to construct the window seat , if you feel that you won't need it ... i am attaching an elevation to give you an idea of the proposed facade ... the "look" can easily be achieved without bumping the wall out ....

as far as the interior .. you seemed to indicate that you wanted a little division of the kitchen , from the livng area ... the proposed plan accomplishes this ... i would not recommend any further walls or divisions of space ... the cleaner lines will make the living/dining areas feel more spacious ... since the house is close to the street , i wouldn't care for more windows in the dining area , but the entry door can certainly have sidelights added ... but , i would recommend using "seeded" glass for both the door and the sidelights ...

also ... you have a chimney on the right side of the roof ... where is this chimney located inside ? is it on the refrigerator wall , or in the bedroom ??

let me know your thoughts ...

Domino- What's under the kitchen area? Is it just storage? Furnace/water heater? Is there anyway you could take some of that space, add an egress window...and make another bedroom? Even if the space was accessed from the family room?

I know you've said you don't have two bedrooms downstairs (without giving up the family room...which I wouldn't do, either) but if you could create one more 'legal' bedroom (egress window and closet) it would solve a lot of your space issues...and make a big difference, when you do sell the house.

Your plans are helpful. So it seems I still have my Sophie's choice. Do I want an entry or do I want a more spacious (and by this I mean at least close to average size) dining area? I understand remodeling is about compromising but both of these seem like large features of a home. The reason I am have been stuck on these designs is that it is hard to swallow spending so much for a home that can't accomplish both somehow.

Lavender - Nothing useful under the kitchen - there is a finished basement workshop (no opportunities for natural light) accessed from the garage. Previous owner was a woodworker. I have tried to convince dh to use this as an office but it's pretty subterranean in there. Because of the slope we are on I think it is literally surrounded by earth so no egress opportunity.

Summerfield - You mean I can't have it all? I completely agree with your points about being close to the street, better aesthetics/landscaping opportunities and seeded glass. So forget the bumpout. And I see your point about further divisions within a small space. I guess I have been reading too much Susan Susanka. I love the idea of half walls designating spaces but still allowing an open feel. I still feel uncomfortable about a front door that swings open into space (no wall behind?) and right into stool seating. I would even be willing to keep a side facing front door that enters into the living room (like I have now) if it helped the design. I can't get over how casual it would look to have the stool seating right at the front door so I think unless I could recess the stool seating more out of sight I would forgo it. I still really like the idea of an arch to separate the kitchen from the living/dining. Now that I have studied your plan a bit there seems to be a lot of open space in the middle of the kitchen (9x10?)- even more than I have now and I feel a bit like I am doing laps. What are your thoughts on an island? The facade is pretty! Although I must admit I am not a big transom person. They are not that common around here where the craftsman/ranch look is more common. You have me stumped on the second chimney! It must be my hood ventilation/refrigerator on the kitchen side. There is nothing in that bedroom. Does this mean if I move my stove to another wall I will have an eyesore on my roof?

tbb123 - I think the measurements are off somehow - I don't have 20 feet from back door to stub wall. It depends on how long the bath would be but maybe 17 - 18? Basically the hall door lines up with the head of the table. I will try to study it tonight. Anyway - the overall concept of the plan is very smart! I am a fan of the breakfast center. I don't think I am bold enough to do a window in a wall. But I would consider a raised island end with display/shelving. And I've bookmarked some pretty glass cab separators on houzz. What your plan and Summerfield's helped me see is that I just need to delineate kitchen and dining somehow! Do you think I could accomplish that with a lowered header, stub walls or a large archway at the kitchen entrance? And yes - solatubes are a great idea that I will definitely use.

Thank you all for your continued insights.

As for the basement...why can't the office go in that area? I mean, offices are bookshelves, storage and desks, right? What if your husband put french doors, between the family room and the office? That would allow him a view and some natural light, but lots of lamps/lighting should make the subterranean room feel less dark. Not to sound sexist, but aren't men supposed to like 'man caves'? LOL

Seriously, if french doors would work, you don't need egress windows for an office, just a bedroom...and that would give you one bedroom downstairs, maybe for two of the kids to share and they'd have access to the family room and downstairs bath. If he really doesn't want the office space, think craft room for you or playroom for the kids! :)

"a lowered header, stub walls or a large archway "

This would really delineate the entry space. I read somewhere that it's our eyes that need the space more than our bodies do. So any half-walls, raised counters, windows,columns, etc. will make a huge difference in your perceived feeling of space and division. Sarah Susanka is all about different ceiling height, too.

I was thinking the same thing as LL - French doors into an office space would make a lot of sense. My son has an "interior subterranean office" in his place. His girlfriend hung a mirror covered with a grid, so you could swear there was a window in there. Makes all the difference in the world.

I am really impressed with the function that the porch annex would make to this little jewel. The realtor will have to put on the sign "Must see inside."

I was actually talking about delineating the kitchen from the dining with the header or stub wall but do you think I should do that with the entry too?

p.s. LL and tbb - great idea on breaking through to the subterranean office. Will have to investigate that further..

This is set up in the IKEA planner file, with all its limitations. The front door would be indented into the "frame" for it. The kitchen side door would also come forward 18". I couldn't show the box window/seat in the dining room, but I do show a table pulled up to it.

Yes, I'd frame out the entry AND the dining room. I remember being in a couple of Craftsman bungalows that were set up a lot like this, and you felt like you were in the entry, not in the dining room. It felt very spacious.

A view from the living room.

A view from the dining room to the kitchen. The divider is a 42" tall glass-fronted cabinet combination with shelves above.

Here's a view from the kitchen standing in front of the little island on the other side of that divider.

I stuffed 2 tables in the dining room - a cozy Thanksgiving dinner for 12.
Some kitchen views.



Floor plans:

So - I am still looking at both options but today I am thinking that rationally I should prioritize dining space over entry space since dining is used every day. And the kids are getting bigger and taking up more space every day. Here is a take on summerfield's plan but with an island instead of the peninsula. There seems like too much open space in the kitchen of that plan (8x10?) and I can't get over the front door opening right into stools. I also flipped the little linen closet to the other side of the hall to max kitchen storage...

Now I am really rolling on this ikea planner. Here is the Summerfield plan WITH peninsula (not island) but I recessed the peninsula back into the kitchen to hide the stools from view and cut down on the big open space in the U of the kitchen. Advantage here is 3 stools for 3 kids. Not sure what to do with the funky wall end of the peninsula. I sketched in a sort of china storage/bookcase unit. And ignore random cabs that are missing or look wrong. Does this ruin Summerfield's plan? Preferences for peninsula vs island?

Oh, and I believe it's about 24" width per stool, in order to be comfortable to slide in and out. The peninsula might be a little tight, unless you take out that cabinet and have the stools slide down (towards the window wall) a bit.

The peninsula plan looks like it is blocking a lot of cabinet space.

I think you actually end up with more storage with the island plan because you won't lose any cabinets space to where the peninsula meets the wall of lowers...

I *might* consider even moving your island to a 3 ft aisle on the window side so you have closer to 4 feet for everyone to access the door. If it is a 1 cook kitchen, I'd consider that. If you have a lot of extra help, well then, maybe not. But, my mom's place has 3' aisles in the working part of the kitchen, and it works okay because everyone else can stand/converse on the other side of the island where there is a bit larger aisle.

Meeting with the arch designer tomorrow for the first time since I put a hold on the project in October. Going to bring up some of these ideas and see what she thinks..