Hi Flowergarden,
No problem. I agree that people are wounded. Sometimes it's difficult to see that other people are hurting too when one's own pain is so great. A lot of the time the people who are saying they are feeling attacked are the quickest to attack others. Defensive instinct, I think. I welcome any dissenting opinions here, or on any other threads because I have no idea how to handle my issues, that's why I'm here!! I think the difference on this thread is that the people who are frequenting it are really seeking what can be done, and venting, but very little is self pity (although we do wallow once in a while).

Hi Sage,

I didn't realize that you have never sent a letter to your parents. Having sent a dozen or so over the last few years there are some advantages to doing this.

- You can say everything you want without being interrupted. (I never got to do this growing up.)

- You can edit it, and think about it as long as you want, before you send it. (It's hard to do this hollering on the phone.)

- You don't have to worry about blowing-up in the middle of a conversation. (I've done this, which is OK, but I never got to say everything I wanted too. All I remember is saying something to my mother about being a cold-hearted b---h, and not much after that.)

- You can tell them what you will do, if they respond inappropriately. (Of course they will still be shocked when you do this. At least you will know you warned them.)

- You can set boundaries. "Don't send me anymore parcels, or I will put them in my wood chipper."

Anyway, if you've never done this, you might get some satisfaction from it. Just don't expect any satisfaction from their response. Peace.

Dave

Oh my goodness Dave. Thank you for the laugh. You could seriously be a stand-up comedian for adult children of crazy parents. That is some funny stuff. And so true to the heart!

Thanks Silver, Since nothing I've ever done has changed things with them, I'd rather laugh than cry about this. I've cried enough. Peace. Dave

Ok, so now what? Let's say you are able to "change" your parents and have them "admit" to the world, the community at large and the family that they were crap for parents and nothing more than cold hearted biatches and self centered jerks, now where does the relationship go?

If you decide this year we will send gifts, then we will send gifts. If you decide this year we won't send gifts, then we won't send gifts? If they are good and do exactly what you say you will allow them to see you. If they don't do exactly what you say, well too bad for them.

What is it exactly that you want? And how do you see the relationship going ahead after you have got what you wanted?

Hi Colleen,
I don't know to whom you were asking this question, but I'll answer for myself.

"Now where does the relationship go?"

Personally, my mother has apologized, and yet she keeps doing the same things. For me, even if she apologized again, I don't know where it would go. I don't trust her or her motives. I don't particularly like her. But I love her. She's my mom.

Your second paragraph indicates that you think the estranged children on this board are making arbitrary decisions and then expecting our parents to jump through our hoops.

I think you're posting in regards to Sage's post and Dave's post about the gifts. Not answering for them, but this is my take on it: Once again, there was a discussion about gifts and an AGREEMENT or understanding that no gifts would be exchanged. Then there were gifts sent. And not the thoughtful, 'I know you had a sweater like this and it got ruined so I found one and replaced it' gift but a box of meaningless junk. What this says is 'I know we agreed, but I don't think I should be held at my word and you should now be grateful'. It's basically a F-you from the parents.

Think about it this way. If you had a friend for umpteen years and you agreed not to send gifts this year, and then you got a box of junk from her... what would you think? Oh, Mary went off the deep end? Would you call her up and say, WTF were you thinking, I thought we agreed? Or would you throw the box out? I don't think it would take many more of those blatant disregards for agreements before you said, that Mary is loco, I don't think we're really friends anymore.

I personally want to know how to handle my crazy, mixed up stomach feelings that I get whenever my mom is in my life. I want to know how to have a reserved, civil relationship with the mother who carried me for nine months, fed me for my childhood, kept me relatively safe and warm and horribly psychologically mistreated me to the point of me being so mixed up about signals and innuendos and relationships that I feel like I'm walking sideways most of the time.

Well hello there Colleen, Something hit a nerve? Are your children not behaving well? Are you feeling a little abused by them?

"What is it exactly that you want? And how do you see the relationship going ahead after you have got what you wanted?"

Believe or not, I would prefer to have a relationship with my parents. But I don't know how to do that with them, or anyone else really for that matter, if everything I think or feel that offends them can only be attributed to me being defective.

I don't know how to have a relationship with them, or anyone, who thinks I am infinitely interested in every detail of their life, their friends lives, relatives-I- never-see lives, and who could probably not name one of my friends, simply because they never ask.

I don't know how to have a relationship with them, or anyone, who as a guest in my home thinks it's just good fun to get falling down, glassy-eyed, slurred-speech drunk in the middle of the day in the presence of my teenage boys.

I don't know how to have a relationship with them, or anyone, who when I confront them with this behavior, they accuse me of being selfish, unforgiving, overreacting, and finally "mentally ill".

I don't know how to have a relationship with them, or anyone, whose solution to all this is let's just pretend everything is fine and never talk about it again. (I actually tried this for a while, it just didn't really work for me, unless I was willing to be medicated the rest of my life.)

So yeah, if we could get past some of this, maybe we could have a relationship. In the meantime, keeping my distance seems to be the only way to maintain some kind of sanity on my end of this situation.

I hope your family can find a better way to work this out than mine has.

Dave

Hello Dave, Silver, welcome Colleen,

Silver, Thanks for clarifying the gift fiasco - that is exactly how I feel. I would have felt pretty much the same if a friend did that to me - but I just can't imagine any friend doing that! WTF, yes WTF! That is exactly what I said! lol I was clear about the gift exchange, it is not like they forgot, or misunderstood me - that would have been impossible. It is so bizarre.

Dave, Once again I can really relate to all you say, and thanks for your advice about the letter. And the chuckles too! They are needed! lol

Very true, there are indeed alot of benefits to writing over talking on the phone. I can collect my thoughts and present them without interruption, so there is no room for twisting the story as I speak, which often happens, at which point I get so upset and frustrated. I decided that I will send a letter after Xmas. If they don't get it on the first read, they can re-read it, and maybe think about it. That is the only hope I have, really the only expectation I have.

I don't expect anything to change or our relationship to be magically fixed, because this has been going on for alot of years. Nothing I have said in the past has changed anything at all. I guess what I am getting out of this is the peace of mind knowing that I tried to get them to understand my side, so that I know they have heard me, and they are not making these assumptions about why I feel the way I do. They have a very twisted view of things, it is so frustrating and unrealistic.

I have tried to talk about it with them over and over again, for years, and they either don't believe me (the ultimate insult), or skew the events to suit them, or completely disregard what I say. I feel bad acting fake all the time when dealing with them. It upsets me every single time I have to deal with them. No more.

I can't even begin to tell you how I wish things were different. The lack of relationship with my parents and all the turmoill has been traumatic for me and affected every aspect of my life. I tried for years to fix things and always wanted some closeness with them. But a person can only be knocked down so many times before they give up. Things did not turn out the way I would have liked, so it is time for acceptance now. As the song goes...you can't always get what you want...

And I will only send them the one letter. I doubt they will respond, and I would not be surprised if they will continue to send me emails about the weather, and gifts at Xmas, as though nothing happened. But who knows, only time will tell.

Hope everyone is having a nice Christmas Eve, is in good spirits, and spending the evening with those whom they love! All the best friends, and thanks for being here and hearing me. I know I am sort of long winded on this subject!

Wishing you Joy, Love and lots of Peace, we do deserve it!

Sage

Well Dave, I would like to think I even have a single nerve left anymore. Whatever.

But back to you Silver.

I think you are somewhat like me, in that in your quest to learn about yourself, you are looking for the one "thing" that could answer all your questions.

Here is a book I have just recently found that answered many of my questions. "Father's Daughters" Maureen Murdock.

"A father's daughter embodies her father's potential future. She will make him whole. She will carry his youth, his whimsy, his intellect, his unrealized dreams. She will continue his life because he is her hero. Because he is her hero, the father's daughter is the "chosen one".

IN order to sustain his approval, protection, and love she often distances herself from her mother and rejects her feminine nature."

By identifying with her father soley, her development as a woman is arrested in daughterhood."

Colleen,
Whhhhhaaaaattttt??????????

I don't think we have much in common parent-wise if this is your relationship with your father. I didn't reject/distance myself from my mother at all. My father and I have a very good relationship, but I don't feel I have to "sustain his approval, protection, and love" by rejecting anyone.

My dad isn't my hero, and I am not chosen. We see one another as adults, and we value one another as the people we are. It took a lot to get here, but we both were willing to look at ourselves and make the changes that were necessary as I became an adult and he was less "necessary" (as a provider of food, shelter, etc).

I'm also not looking for a "thing" that can solve all of my problems. I'm looking for effective ways to deal with/relate to people. People like my mother. People who refuse or are unable to see things as they are. To see me as I am.

Happy Holidays,
~Silver

Silver,
I think you express yourself very well and I am sure everyone here sees you as you are...
The problem is it's often the very people who point out the faults in others that do not see their own. You say you are looking for "effective ways" to deal with/relate to people like your mother. That was pointed out to you in the parents side-in fact (not the exact words) but that you relate to "the parents" as if they are your mother.
None of us are your mother...and reading posts with that thought in mind may be why it is so difficult for you to see our efforts, and our misery...Because unlike your mother, we care and we are saddened by our children's estrangement.
You are like us-in that you too are searching and you too would like your loved one to care. To care enough to fight to win you back into their arms...
You won't be able to find an effective way to deal with/relate to your mother with anyone except your mother. Yes, we are all "mothers"-but what would work for one will not work for another.
I am so sorry your mother doesn't fight for you. I am sorry she is not on the "parents" site stating she has tried counseling, begging, whatever. I wish Peace for you, Peace just like all of us "mothers." It seems the people with the hurt hearts aren't abundant in number in these families...I guess those genes skip a link or two.
Oh, and none of us have ever said we were perfect-we can't-we aren't we we can't be...it's all about forgiveness and love but it takes two and it looks like a lot of parents and children are standing by themselves...and that is to bad and very, very sad.
I hope your mother opens her heart, just like the children on the "parents" side. Just think how different the whole world would be...Peace On Earth...
stray

Hi Silversword,

Yes, I agree with you and notice too that the people who say they are feeling attacked are the quickest to attack others. I also agree that when people are so mired in their own pain they cannot see how wounded others feel, or even how they retaliate and hurt them.

You are probably right about it being a defensive instinct, I think, but not a great skill for problem solving. In fact, I think it's very destructive. I don't mind dissenting opinions either, so long as they are not dismissive. There's a huge difference to me. I think a little venting is healthy, so long as one is seeking solutions to problems. The self-pity thing I have mixed emotions about, because it can be used as a negative label, when one is genuinely in a process of searching for solutions. (I'm not saying that you meant this or do this). That label was used on me and the "you're too sensitive" and it sent the message that it wasn't okay for me to talk about my feelings. It sounds very much like no one gives a damn about you...I'm the only one with feelings. I can't feel close to anyone who places those restrictions on my feelings or who demonstrates so little empathy towards my emotions.

I've been posting on the other sites, but I think I have a lot in common with the posters on this thread (Dave, Sage and others).

I maintain a relationship with my mother by writing her. This has been easier for me and reduces my stress levels and it helps me to maintain my sanity. It is a way to keep in contact, without saying much, but including her. I don't get interrupted, criticized and its harder for her to twist my meaning (although she can accomplish this as well). I wish it was not this way, but I don't see how it can change without her participation and I doubt that will happen.

To make a long story very short, my mother became depressed after my father died. I think she was always a slightly depressed person, but she refused to get help. Unfortunately she's the type of person who feels "depression" is a stigma and it's to be overcome with keeping busy and "positive thoughts". This is accomplished by denying emotions. Aside from that she always labeled her daughter, "me" as "sensitive". The "role" of the crazy one, "mentally ill one" and "too sensitive" was their label for me (my sisters too). She refused to get help and her depression was left untreated. It turned into a full blow psychosis (with paranoid delusions). She was institutionalized against her will. She's now in a facility where she has to take meds. So, to manage my relationship with her, I would call, but then write more often, because I just couldn't deal with her crazy behaviors and self-involvement. She seems like she is doing better now and I called her a few weeks ago, the first time since last January. I do write her, but it is less often than I initially did. I needed a break and also had so much going on in my life--chronic pain from an injury and surgery, so I had to focus on that. She has called and left messages, but I don't return her phone calls. I do write though. I'm certain she feels hurt, but I just couldn't cope with her behaviors and she will not listen. My sisters made the whole ordeal worse. I do want to see her as I haven't in a long time (8 years). I didn't want that much time to lapse, but my injury and health stuff prevented that and I would like to feel stronger physically before dealing with her emotionally. It's draining just to have one conversation with her. Prior to her slide into mental illness, I always found her emotionaly unavailable. She could make connections, but she always seemed preoccupied and self-absorbed. It was like talking to a wall. She just wasn't able to hear me, or to see me. She doesn't even know her daughter and that has not been from my lack of trying to get her to see or to hear me. She doesn't see me as I am, just her version of how she thinks I am or how she thinks I ought to be. She always seemed to focus on what was trite, petty and superficial. She'd get fixated on stupid stuff, like my hair. She was hyper-critical of that I wore it in a simple way--long and straight and she wanted me to change that. She'd focus on stupid, petty stuff and ignore all the big ways that would make the relationship feel more balanced, healthy and happier. She's not that way though, and I cannot say this to her. She focuses on what is petty and stupid. I tried to talk to her, and she refuses to listen. She reacts with hurt and anger and then her resentment pours forth in abundance, while she lashes out and in deeply destructive ways. It's difficult to grow up feeling like you parented your crazy parent and that you are dealing with an emotionally stunted person. It really becomes burdensome. I've resigned myself to accept that this is probably how it will always be. It's not a happy outcome, and I wish it were different, but I just don't have much hope that it will change. How she sees herself and others and the roles are fixed in stone.

Despite what other people may say to you, I think you express and write very well...I can empathize with what you say more than you know...

Dave,

So much of what you says resonates with me too.

"I don't know how to have a relationship with them, or anyone, whose solution to all this is let's just pretend everything is fine and never talk about it again. (I actually tried this for a while, it just didn't really work for me, unless I was willing to be medicated the rest of my life.)"

I actually wrote about this on another thread (the pretending) and have provided the link below. I posed a question to others in the parents forum if Estrangements could be healed, or even if it was a good time to heal them over the holidays. I wonder what your take would be on some of the responses and silver's and sage.

This part really kills me, because I've experienced the same behaviors and destructive comments in my own family and it rings so true (unfortunately).

"I don't know how to have a relationship with them, or anyone, who when I confront them with this behavior, they accuse me of being selfish, unforgiving, overreacting, and finally "mentally ill"."

My sister never wastes an opportunity to let me know how mentally ill I am. It's very convenient for her to dismiss my respones to her inappropriate hostility as "too sensitive". I didn't want to be medicated for the rest of my life either, and found that having supportive, good friends to talk with (although that has not been easy either) and removing myself from the crazy-making behaviors helped. I also did find a therapist to talk too, because I never would have survived my own destructive in-laws (MIL was a rageful, self-absorbed, emotionally abusive alcoholic), and injury during my own mothers slide into psychosis. Despite everthing that has happened, removing myself and limiting these destructive interactions has helped me to deal with it better and I don't need medication.

It's crazy-making when people are exposed to family members who consistently dismiss their feelings and don't want them to talk about how they feel. No wonder there are so many depressed people in need of medication, when everyone around them tries to stifle their process or the honest expression of how they feel.

Well I just want to thank you for being so open here, because it has helped me to know that there are other people out there that can understand how it feels to deal with crazy-making parents and inlaws.

Hi Sage, It sounds like you have developed some clarity about sending your parents a letter. I'm glad for you. I hope this will be another step in your journey of trying to find your peace with them.

Hi Flower, Welcome to this thread. It sounds like you have been through a lot with your family and have arrived at some of the same conclusions, and have developed some of the same coping skills that I have.

I can really relate to your comments about a mother that "is preoccupied and self-absorbed", "focuses on what was trite, petty and superficial", "fixated on stupid stuff like hair", "reacts with hurt and anger". Are you sure you don't know my mother?

I'll check the link you mentioned, when I have more time.

When I think about my situation, it seems I was born into a family, (not of my choosing, at least not that I know of), in which I was placed into a struggle over who owned my thoughts and feelings, me, or my parents. If I concede this struggle to them, then I am become a depressed, worthless, nobody. I lived like this for a while, and decided it wasn't for me. If I claim ownership of my thoughts and feelings, then they accuse me of being overly sensitive, selfish, unforgiving and ultimately, mentally ill. In all these years, I have not found any middle ground in this struggle, nor have I found any way to broker a truce in which I could remain emotionally intact.
And so I end up estranged with some occasion (usually unpleasant) contact through letters.

While this situation with my parents has created a wound in me, it is a wound that has healed some over time, and I expect that it will continue to heal. And despite this wound, I get up in the morning and feel good about my life. Overall, things are good :-)

Thanks for joining in. This forum seems like one small way we can all help heal each other. Peace.

Dave

Hi Dave, Silver and Sage,

I'm glad to have found this forum and only wish that I'd found it sooner. I was writing over on the parents forum on estrangement, but while reading through your posts--it brought tears to my eyes and I feel that your experiences are similar to my own. I've been reading all of your posts and when I do I'm overcome. I feel such a relief, all of you being so honest and expressing your feelings. I appreciate that each of you has been so honest here. I've experienced the same feelings--everything resonates with me, and very deeply. I don't talk to other people about it as I've learned from their responses that they do not have the capacity to understand, and maybe don't want too.

I was just looking for someone who may be able to connect with what I've been going through and that is how I found the parent estrangement board, but it was more parent centered, and from that experience and not the other, so I wonder how beneficial it may have been for me to write there or if anyone is truly listening.

I still struggle with estrangement and whether or not it was the right choice. I get particularly vulnerable this time of year to doubts, but they are not so strong at other times. I find the holidays a very difficult time of year to get through and I feel annoyed at times that I still feel these thoughts cropping up. I just feel that the desire for family is so strong in all of us, and so we feel the loss very deeply, and even more so this time of year with the emphasis. It gets difficult for me at times to manage my moods. Just being able to talk about it gives me a type of release, and even more so when there are people who understand and have similar feelings. Hearing your words is helping me to not feel so alone in all of this. Your words are mine, giving voice to my thoughts and feelings.

For me estrangement and dealing with my family and also my husband's family is a cycle that is always there. I do better sometimes than others (the holidays with the emphasis on family) being particularly difficult. But for me the holidays coincide with some anniversaries too, so that makes it all the more emotionally laden.

Dave, I don't think our families are of our choosing (I don't know how that could be, although I know particular religions have that type of mindset). I don't think anyone would want to be born into families feeling UNLOVED and not cared about, to parents who routinely dismissed or ridiculed our feelings--who would want that.

I can really relate to your comments and know exactly how you feel when you write this, "If I concede this struggle to them, then I am become a depressed, worthless, nobody. I lived like this for a while, and decided it wasn't for me. If I claim ownership of my thoughts and feelings, then they accuse me of being overly sensitive, selfish, unforgiving and ultimately, mentally ill."

I, too haven't been able to find the middle ground, or as you would say "broker a truce in which I could remain emotionally intact." I've had all the same issues too with the "forgive and forget". Some of the most abusive people I've ever met, like to manipulate others by demanding forgiveness.

That is why I chose to write my my mother. I've been in therapy the past 3 years, as I would never have survived everything, had I not. Three years ago I was contemplating suicide--that was when the downward spiral of her mental health culminated in her being institutionalized. This all coincided with some major health issues for me (6 months after I went through major surgery) and dealing with chronic pain issues from an injury. I'm doing better now. During this time too, my MIL (a rageful, hateful, emotionally abusive, narcissistic alcoholic) was in and out of the hospital and died 6 1/2 months following my surgery. She was another extremely self-absorbed person. There's even more that happened, but I would be writing for months on end, if I told all those stories.

I just decided that writing her (my mother), rather than talking to her was the best course of action to take. I just couldn't deal with her abusive tirades. She actually screamed at me over the phone that I was "totally useless". Of course, she made excuses and never took responsibility, and this was all occuring during my health issues. I didn't even call her about my surgery, because she is just too self-absorbed and focused on all of her own stuff. She has always minimized anything that happens to me, so why bother to tell her.

I read the letters that I write to her to my therapist and I read the one's she sends back to her as well. She says that I don't really say much (and she doesn't either), but then that is how I've learned to cope and manage the situation, by really not saying anything, because it is emotionally safer to not reveal anything, so it doesn't get twisted into what it is NOT. At one time I tried to write her how I was feeling, but I always felt it was useless. Her responses were always inappropriate, even when she wasn't descending into madness. She would respond asking me what I wanted, like she was annoyed. She just didn't seem to get that I wanted a loving, empathetic response, which would indicate to me that she understood or had compassion towards her daughter. She was just so focused on her self and wanting me to respond to her and take care of her needs. Then her mental health started on a downward spiral. I got involved with NAMI, but I also found there too, that my situation was so unique that it was difficult finding people who could understand or relate to what I was going through. It has always felt that way for me. I've always felt so alone.

I, too, know that this has created a wound in me and I have done some healing, but I wonder if it is anything that any one of us will completely heal from or if there is such a thing. Feeling good about us and our life is important and there is much we can all do in this regard. I wonder though how one truly just gets over the loss of family...

Thank you so much for your kind words of support, for responding and lending an ear...I think this forum a good place and a small way that we can help heal each other too.

Hi Flower,

Wow. You've been through a lot. Crazy in-laws and a wacko mom. Chronic pain and health problems. Suicidal. My heart goes out to you.

The link you posted was about healing relationships over the holidays. I don't know the answer for this in general. For my family it's not a meaningful question. My parent's idea of healing the relationship is for everyone to pretend like nothing bad ever happened and that everything is fine. They call this being forgiving. I think they see themselves as rather saintly because of this. My idea of healing the relationship is to talk about what has happened in our family to help us start to understand and trust each other. Any suggestion of this produces an angry tirade from my parent claiming I am unforgiving, overly sensitive, hanging on to the past, and finally that I must be having some kind of mental breakdown. So, the holidays (or any days for that matter) aren't really a good time for reconciliation in my family.

"I wonder if it is anything that any one of us will completely heal from or if there is such a thing"

I don't think I will ever heal in the sense that the painful and the hurtful memories vanish from my consciousness. Having said that, I don't believe I am condemned to a life of endless pain and hurt either. I heard an analogy some time ago that helped me with this. Imagine we live our life in a room with only one window in which to view the world around us. If that window is small and cloud comes by, it covers the whole window, the whole world looks cloudy to us, and we are sad. As we go through life, if we can discover ways to make our window larger, the clouds will still drift by, but then we can see they are surrounded by brilliant blue sky, colorful birds, the warm bright sun, and wonderful limitless broad horizons. The clouds don't go away, but they don't effect us the same way either. Over time I've found things that enlarge my window on life. Of course, there are still some big clouds that can cover my window. But those don't come all the time. I'm still aware of the pain and hurt from my relationship with my parents, it just doesn't dominate my life as much as it has in the past. And now there is more room for joy and peace in my life.

I don't mean this come across as overly simplistic and naive. I've suffered a lot over the years, and still do at times, because of my relationship with my parents. The clouds can be devastating in the amount of excruciating pain they cause, and in how long they can last. And yet, after endlessly considering every alternative available to me, the only thing that seems to consistently help is to find ways to enlarge my window on life.

Anyway, I'm glad we all have found each other on this thread. I find myself encouraged and comforted, whenever I read your posts :-) Peace.

Dave

Hi Dave,

Thank you for what you say here...I'm doing better than what I was. I still have physical pain, but I'm working hard on that--it's interesting what that brings up emotionally. I've just had a few set-backs these past few months, but I'm hopeful. I am not feeling suicidal like I was (that was really only a response to feeling so overwhelmed by the situation compounded by my health issues). To say it was a overwhelming is an understatement. It helps to be able to talk openly and honestly about my feelings, instead of feeling stifled, dismissed and judged--behaviors that encourage people to stuff it all or bottle it up. People respect stoicism, but I find it difficult to strangulate and numb my emotions in order to win their approval of my silence. The cost is too great for me.

I'm feeling comforted and encouraged reading your posts too. I've been searching for a long time for people who may be able to relate, or even that can be honest about their feelings in a healthy (non-destructive) way. It's difficult finding that balance. In my life, Ive found people to be very self-focused, so they do not respond as you do, or they offer clichés or worse, judgements and criticisms.

I provided the link for the thread because there were some posts which followed that were interesting (some people who had similar views to yours and mine). It became an interesting discussion for some participants (not others). Also I wrote about pretending there too, which you mention in your posts. I agree with you that for some families it is "not a meaningful question, because the idea of healing the relationship is for everyone to pretend nothing bad ever happened and that everything is fine."

"They call this being forgiving." Yes, I can really relate to that and I hear this so frequently with abusive people and what is sad is that there are so many people who have absolutely no idea of the problems that help this type of thinking. Pretending is not forgiveness. It doesn't lead to closeness or healing.

And yes, I can so relate to this observation too, "I think they see themselves as rather saintly because of this."

I agree 100 percent with this comment, "My idea of healing the relationship is to talk about what has happened in our family to help us start to understand and trust each other. Any suggestion of this produces an angry tirade from my parent claiming I am unforgiving, overly sensitive, hanging on to the past, and finally that I must be having some kind of mental breakdown."

I see this in my family and my in-laws. (There are similar issues, but expressed in different ways, although I think in his family the pathology is even greater). My husband sees them occasionally and goes along with the pretense, "no talk rule" and social mask, so as to "not rock the boat" and just to feel that he has a family. It is his choice. It hasnt been a healthy choice or outcome for me. I would have preferred a different outcome, but you cannot control other people. Likewise, the past few years Ive really had to focus on my health stuff and my moms issues, which has been overwhelming enough.

I like your analogy and no, it does not come across as either overly simplistic or naive. Everything that Ive read about dealing with emotional abuse suggests enlarging ones window. For the most part Ive tried to do this in my life too. Embracing life to me means not ignoring what is unpleasant, but acknowledging both the negative and positive and trying to find the balance. Its not an easy dance at times, but a worthy one. I dont know how well I do this. I think what is important is that I try. I recognize that it is a cycle. Dealing with my health situation and chronic pain made me feel far more emotionally vulnerable and it limited my participation in life as I would like, but there is hope on the horizon. Likewise, the past 5 years for me have been extremely emotionally devastating and that hasnt completely obliterated my being able, at times and through the darkness to find joy, even in sometimes the most unlikely places.

Like right now, Im finding comfort, encouragement and yes, even joy in talking to you. I see similarities and that helps me to feel less alone. The sort of emotional pain that youve experienced I would not want to wish on anyoneI know I've been there and I'm still dealing with it. What I also see in you is a survivorsomeone with strength of character, courage, and empathy and that is beautiful to me. I find hope, comfort, encouragement and joy in that, and that is no small thing.

Hi there,

So glad to see so much support here and new people. This forum has helped me so much too, especially through this time of year which is always the worst for me. Nobody can understand the depth of this situation unless they have been there themselves. And I have not been able to relate to anyone else on this issue, other than just recently, finding this place, to those who are here. I am still amazed I found other people who can understand! It gives me hope that I will be able to deal with this.

Flower, I can relate to so much of what you say. And as you and Dave both said, this pretending is a very big factor in the relationship with my parents too. I hate it, it has been going on for a very long time and it is going to stop. I just can't pretend anymore, it makes me feel terrible inside.

I can also relate to the suicidal thoughts as I have also been there. And alot of it was related to the situation with my parents, I felt so alone and abandoned, and my feelings were never validated at all. Therapy has helped. I have not gotten to that low point for a long time now. I brought in emails from my mother to my therapist to discuss, and it helped to talk about it, so someone else could see the craziness of the blunt, impersonal relationship.

Corrospondence has been very light with my parents too, for a long time, because anytime anything related to feelings or emotions would come up, they would explode and blame me for being over dramatic, too sensitive and on and on. So I had to keep it light to keep my own sanity. I never got the feeling that they ever even tried to understand.

I have this letter to send them that says alot, not everything because that would take a memoir!!! But it covers some of the major points and events that have happened and my feelings surrounding them. I limited myself to one page. Now I know this is going to open me up again to their crazy interpretations, their judgement of me, backtalk to the rest of the family - but most likely it will just be met with silence and I will never hear from them again. I am prepared for that now.

I have been feeling ridiculously self absorbed about this letter the last few days, and it gets me down, I am thinking about it too much - but I think that will subside once I send it. I am going to send it via email.

Just wanted to pop in and say hi, and I am still here and surviving the season quite well for a change!! Thanks everyone for being here.

Sage

Hi Sage,

I get the feelings of abandonment and aloneness as I've had it too, so I can really relate to that. I've been reading your posts and Dave's and Silvers, so everything you've stated I can pretty much relate too.

I, too felt that they never tried to understand....just labels and judgments and blame of being "too sensitive," so I know that routine very well. I realize that it's all about them and their issues and deficiencies. I know this, but that doesn't mean that the resulting relationship and situation doesn't hurt. My father died, but prior to that I did talk with him and wrote him, but I was also not close to him for many reasons. I only write my mother. I do not have contact with either one of my older sisters. They just want to ignore and blame and not take any personal responsibility. I think their issues with me have to do with my mother and what they perceive as her "favoritism" towards me. I am the youngest. I never felt "favored". They poured forth their resentment towards me about the perceived "favortism" and I later learned that they accused her of it as well. My mother isn't the best communicator, and of course now mental illness has completely changed her. I asked her once about "favoritism" and she responded that she thought she did favor me. That annoyed me and I asked her for clarification. Her response was that she felt closer to me because she felt I had more empathy and compassion. Being in that position didn't bode well for me. I see both of my sisters as aggressive, angry and insensitive towards me. I don't know what kind of social mask they have with others. I've told them both that they are insensitive towards me and gave examples, but they would respond with how it was only a problem for me and that their friends didn't view them that way. Well, their friends didn't grow up with them and the relationship dynamic is very different. Their friends receive very different treatment and are not the target of their anger, rage and cruelty. BIG DIFFERENCE. It's easy when one is on the outside looking in, under the guise of being "helpful", to make all kinds of inappropriate and untrue observations, when one is not on the receiving end of cruel behaviors. These people know nothing and are not helpful, but she loves to cite them, because it solidifies her position of that she is right and I'm wrong and therefore "too sensitive" and it helps her to make her case that the problem is me and that I'm "emotionally unstable" and "mentally ill". When I call her on it her response is to play innocent and claim no memory and then she gets angry and accuses me of living in the past, being mean, being unforgiving and whatever else she can throw at me. So I totally get where you are all coming from. Been there, done that.

My one sister told me that I was always trying to get my needs met and be heard--she would always judge my feelings as "too sensitive" whenever I would take responsibility for what I was feeling and try to tell her what I was feeling. This one would always try to correct my emotions and interrupt other people's responses to me (when I knew how I felt about their behaviors and told her what I was feeling) to correct my emotions. In a letter she wrote to me about how I was always trying to be heard, she responded by saying in the next paragraph that she always experienced my feelings as nubulous. I she wonders about why I would always keep trying to be heard???

So, this is long-winded but I really, really can relate to what you are saying about never getting the feeling that they ever even tried to understand. Oh, I so get that!

I told my sister that I was going through the motions and she responded how hurtful and cruel that was. Well, if someone experiences your emotions as nubulous and judges your emotions as "too sensitive," it makes logical sense to me that one would feel that they conversation and relationship was quite limited and hence one would go through the motions. What else would one do. Then they attack me about my "perfect memory," if I ever try to revisit the past by offering examples. I experienced that type of sarcasm as cruel and undermining--it didn't help the situation.

The pretending and going through the motions feels horrible. I wrote about that on another thread (on the parent estrangement site). The post was titled can you mend relationships during the holidays, but the ensueing discussion took another course about pretending. If I'd known about this site I would have been writing here earlier, because I can relate so much to what you've been writing about.

I think it good that you are writing the letter. It's an important step for you, despite how they respond. I was hopeful at one time when I wrote letters, but my sisters and mother didn't respond in ways that would promote healing or understanding. In order for that to happen, they would have to be willing to take a good look at their own behaviors, instead of denying any responsibility on their part. One of the last times I spoke to my oldest sister, she screamed on the phone..."..you want me to say I'm sorry, then she screamed, alright I'm sorry." Then she hung up the phone. I mean do you really think that kind of comment was sincere or helpful. Who are these people anyway--the one's that figure "love means never having to say you're sorry" types. Do they really think love thrives when one is not accountable. They're just going to keep on sweeping all the dirt under the rug and ignore the herd of elephants in the living room. I don't feel close to these people. I have a hard time understanding anyone who would. I don't see myself as unforgiving. I know the difference between an apology, backed up by actions, that demonstrates sincerity. Forgiveness is possible under those circumstances

My SIL (a very manipulative person) wrote an email to her brother...her motto was fix it or move on...She does't fix anything. She always moves on--one relationship after another and the men are always framed as the problem (she can't find appropriate men). Her life choices relfect a perpetual cycle of repetition...a broken record (not just with men, but with everyone. The trouble is her relative don't confront her about it). She does't fix anything and it is always a case of "too little, too late". It's really a sorry state of affairs. Every one pretends in that family.

So, I think it good that you wrote the letter and you are not being self-absorbed. Send it for you, and you only, because you deserve it.

Hi Flower, You must be a very strong person. You've had so few allies, and so many negative people and situations to deal with. I'm impressed with what you have been able to survive.

"I've just had a few set-backs these past few months, but I'm hopeful. I am not feeling suicidal like I was..." I am really glad to hear that you are hopeful, and feeling better than you have. It seems that parents/siblings like ours create such a dark outlook on life. We all need a little hope, and a few glimmers of light to heal and encourage us.

"I find it difficult to strangulate and numb my emotions in order to win their approval of my silence." I know of nothing more deadening to me personally than this kind of silence. I need to tell people how I think and feel. If I don't it's as though I don't exist.

"Pretending is not forgiveness. It doesn't lead to closeness or healing." This is so very true. I'm not sure if or when I will ever write to my parents again, but I'm going put this in the letter.

In the past, all of this pretending and fake forgiveness felt like I was slowly being suffocated to death. No more. I speak my truth during our infrequent communications. Of course they deal with this by feeling sorry for me that I'm mentally unstable. So be it. While this relationship with my parents is still pathetic, speaking my truth is better than feeling like I'm being suffocated. While this isn't a pleasant situation, it's a more workable situation for me. Now I just feel like more of an orphan who was raised by a really lousy foster family that doesn't have control over me anymore. And I'm free to do and say what I want.

Hi Sage, "I have been feeling ridiculously self absorbed about this letter the last few days..." Yeah, I tend to compose letters in my head to them for days. Sometimes I send the letters just so I can stop thinking about them. I hope you can find some satisfaction in saying what you know to be true, and not letting their response, or lack of response, get you down.

Peace, Dave

Hello Flower and Dave,

Flower, I agree with Dave, you must be a strong person. You have been through alot, and you should be proud you are getting through it all! Your sister sounds like she has her own issues, that was not very nice what she did to you on the phone. Sounds like she can't deal with her own emotions at all. As the saying goes "What doesn't kill us, makes us stronger." I think that is true in all our cases.

I am glad you can relate (well not 'glad' you have the same problem, but you know what I mean...). It is comforting to me and makes me feel alot less isolated.

Somethimes I think: What is wrong with being a little bit of a sensitive person anyways? They make is sound like it is a bad thing. I am alot more sensitive, empathetic and caring than they are. I feel that they are incapable of love. I am glad I am not like them because I know I can love. It is a heck of a lot better than being a cold, hard, unfeeling stone. That is how I feel my parents are. They can never come off of their high horses even for a minute and be caring, to try to put themselves in my shoes,or anyone elses for that matter. My whole life they were racists, chauvanists (even my mother), shallow and always making fun of people. For example, disabled people. And unkind to animals, something which always hurt me so deeply, because I have always, and still do, have a close connection with animals. They are crude, yet look down their nose at everyone. Except my brother that is, they think he is just great. Sick, sick, sick.

Dave, I feel the exact same way about the pretending part. I can't do it anymore, and standing my ground, stating my case by sending the letter and dealing with whatever their reaction is, is alot better than what has been going on. And what Flower said about the silence - I can sooo relate to that. It is deadening. I am a very open person - well, I mean that I am that way with everyone I know except my parents, because I gave with them, and have been pretending for a long time. It kills me to keep things inside.

Thanks for the support surrounding my letter. I am sending it. I am STILL mulling over it. I am trying not to go on any tirades, because I easily fall into that mode with them. I think it would just give them reason to label me as nuts. So I am just being matter of fact, and making some statements. I allowed myself one page, but now it is two. No more than two pages though!! Two pages is enough! lol I feel stronger now, and know it is the right thing to do. I want to do it before it is too late.

"Pretending is not forgiveness". That was well said Flower. I have been going through the motions for a long time. I always felt an obligation, because they are my parents. I struggle with that. But then again, I am their child, and they didn't really show me any consideration EVER. So why should I feel obligated? I am feeling less and less so as time goes on.
I have not heard a word from my parents this whole holiday season, a phone call or email. I am thinking that maybe my mother sent that parcel against my wishes knowing it would piss me off. Is she trying to end this for once and for all? Maybe. I guess I will never know what she was thinking. But knowing them, they are feeling sorry for themselves that their daughter is so selfish, she doesn't even phone to say ''thanks for the gift''. Ahh well, I should know by now that there is no winning with them. I have accepted that.

Sage

Hi Sage, and Happy New Year to all!

I can really relate to much of the way you describe your parents, "incapable of love...cold, hard, unfeeling stone...racists, chauvinists (even my mother)". What has confused me in the past is that my parents would say that they "love" me, but what it felt like is that they just wanted to manipulate me to meet their needs with complete and total disregard for what I feel and think. When I would tell them I didn't feel loved, they would blow-up, and conclude I was mentally defective. No one needs to be loved like this. It will make you crazy.

"I am their child, and they didn't really show me any consideration EVER. So why should I feel obligated?" This is exactly how I feel! This is one of the main reasons that I have walked away from my parents. It seems that every relationship can be broken. If a spouse is unfaithful, a friend cheats us, a co-worker stabs us in the back, these are all grounds to end a relationship. If a parent never shows us any consideration, I think this is grounds to end this relationship too.

Good luck with your letter. I don't know if you will ever know what they are thinking. When my wife asks what I think my parent's are up to, I just say I quit trying to figure them out a long time ago. Peace.

Dave

Hi Dave and Sage,

Thank you for what you say here, "You must be a very strong person. You've had so few allies, and so many negative people and situations to deal with. I'm impressed with what you have been able to survive." It means more to me than you know.

The few people who have acknowledged my strengths have been a few counselors/therapists and one friend. I find most people very self-absorbed and focused on getting their needs met. I'm beginning to think that estrangements are not so uncommon from reading other posts on this site (the parents forums). I'm not really all that surprised, given how poorly some people treat one another. What is really sad, is that I think some people are so self-focused that they probably don't even recognize how poorly they do treat others and feel entitled to do so. They probably have help from "excuse makers" and enablers as well.

I agree and can really relate to what you say here, "I know of nothing more deadening to me personally than this kind of silence. I need to tell people how I think and feel. If I don't it's as though I don't exist."

I do too. Being able to honestly talk about what you feel is vital for healthy relationships. Without that what does one have--superficial relationships. I've often used the phrase that I feel that people who treat me this way make me feel like I don't exist--why would anyone desire to have a relationship with people like that. One can talk about how they feel with empathy and compassion. My family, and my in-laws tried to dictate my reality (my sisters do this, and my mother does too). My MIL just ignored me as if I didn't exist. She wouldn't even mention my name to my husband, in an effort to bury the problem, because she couldn't face herself and her own thoughtless, selfish behaviors. My husband was fine with pretending, because he didn't want to face her anger and aggression, or be the target of her rage. So he went along with placating her emotionally abusive behaviors. He saw her infrequently and never felt close to her. He does the same with the rest of his family, because their way of dealing with problems is to ignore them and deny ugly, cruel or thoughtless behaviors. They make a lot of excuses.

I agree about pretending and fake forgiveness. It does feel like one is slowly suffocating to death. Your parents demeaning you as "mentally unstable" is cruel and untrue. I've dealt with the same demoralizing comments from my family. They have consistently done that to me, dismissing my feelings and truth as "too sensitive" and my sisters never waste an opportunity to refer to me as mentally ill, because I was honest about experiencing clinical depression. That's extremely negative behavior on their part and very cruel. They can't look at themselves and you know they operate by the "best defense is a good offense". Their ego's are so fragile that they can't even look at themselves, so they launch cruel, viscious attacks to cover up their own inadequacies and deficiencies--they can't face the truth. I personally feel behaving this way towards someone is evil. I understand how it feels to be on the receiving end of this type of demoralizing treatment. I feel for you and my heart goes out to you, but I feel pity for them for never knowing their son.

I've often felt like an orphan too set adrift, without family, without anyone. That's not a good feeling, but the alternative is far worse. Some relationship dynamics and the roles family members want you to play are truly life obliterating. I read a lot of books and that has helped me. It offers me a type of solace, even if my situation will not change. It has helped me. Still I have my moments of sadness. I think it a huge loss, and that stays with one.

I've been sick the past few days and still have a cold/flu,so that's why I didn't respond earlier. I wanted to pop in and respond. I'm still here...just recuperating and trying to get well.

Hi Flower, Sorry to hear you have been sick. I hope you start feeling better soon. I really meant what I said about you being strong. I've been through a lot with my parents/brother, but I have a very supportive spouse, and my in-laws are very kind and thoughtful people. I also have lived 2000 miles away from my parents for the last 35 years. Physical as well as emotional distance has helped a lot. It just seems like you don't have many sane people on your side. It's just hard to imagine going through what you have been through, without more support from others. I admire you for finding the strength to survive this. I don't think I would have done as well.

"I find most people very self-absorbed and focused on getting their needs met." Very true. I think having been raised by people like this, it is very easy for us to spot these people. Don't give up looking for the good ones. I think it is harder for us to see good people, because it is so foreign to what we grew up with. I mean really, how are we suppose to find and trust good people, if the people who are suppose to be good to us, and who we are suppose to trust the most, our parents, completely and totally violate our relationship with them? I mean really, how are we suppose to do this??? And yet, we need to figure this out. It's been a struggle, and I have made progress.

"Some relationship dynamics and the roles family members want you to play are truly life obliterating." I guess this is what it comes down to. They have forced us to chose between being being obliterated in a relationship with them, or having a life estranged from them. In many years of trying, I have found no middle ground here. Given this choice, I want my life.

I hope you get well soon. Peace.

Dave

As I write this, teary-eyed, I wish more and more that I could simply turn off the feelings I have for my mother and younger but 20 year old sister. At age 26, and getting ready for my wedding this month, I am amazed that my mother and sister will not be attending. My parents divore, unspeakable actions and lies, and my sisters ignorance, have nearly destroyed any sliver of what relationship we may of had, or could possibly have in the future. Believing I chose my stepmom and my father, my biological mother is nonchalant when it comes to my life, and hurtful towards my father and me whenever the opportunity rises (even though shes the one who had an affair with a guy nearly my age whom she met on a computer game). My sister, immature and living with my mother at age 20, is discovering the unappealing "roots" of my mothers family and embracing a very abnormal and dysfunctional lifestyle and value system. Believing that humans are disposable, and constantly trying to force blame and hurt on myself and others, my mother and sister are two peas in a pod, living a very prideful existence. so why do I even bother caring? I can't let go of these toxic relationships that I know are unhealthy for me, that I know I do not want my future children to be a part of, and yet I fixate on this hole in my heart when I should be embracing the positive aspects and people within my life. My family is large, loving, I have my MBA and am in the process of completeing my law degree, I have a fiance who I know loves me more than anything and yet I fight with him and nag about stupid things that I know are a result of these misplaced feelings in my heart and in my mind. I need to let go. I need to heal. But I need to do this in a manner that will not cause me to breakdown when I need to be strong for my own family. I know I have done everything possible, I know I have extended the invite to my wedding only to be hurt with all the rhetoric that develops, and yet a feeling of loss consumes me and a negative energy rests inside me. Perhaps I'll write again, perhaps write a book even, or use a journal, or perhaps I'll muster up a way to swallow the hurt and digest it for another decade or so hoping things will go back to the way they used to be when I was younger. This of course will never happen..hence my dilemma.

So Dave, let me ask you a few questions. And, pardon me if I am leary of most people, most especially you.

How do you garner information about people?
What is your favorite colour?
What is your favorite book and why?

Colleen, You insult me, then ask strange questions. Too weird. No thanks.

Hi Dave,

I would have responded sooner, but I've been sick. I'm starting to feel a little better each day.

"I really meant what I said about you being strong. I've been through a lot with my parents/brother, but I have a very supportive spouse, and my in-laws are very kind and thoughtful people. I also have lived 2000 miles away from my parents for the last 35 years. Physical as well as emotional distance has helped a lot. It just seems like you don't have many sane people on your side. It's just hard to imagine going through what you have been through, without more support from others. I admire you for finding the strength to survive this. I don't think I would have done as well."

Thank you. I appreciate hearing that more than you know. I have felt very alone at times and isolated. That has not been for lack of trying to communicate to others. I think many people lack emotional honesty and are very poor communicators. I live about 2,000 miles from my family too, as does my husband. Even when we lived in the same state, we lived about a 4 hours drive away. I agree that physical distance is helpful. I know for certain, if we had not moved away from his family--our marriage would have ended, like all their relationships and the family pattern.

I read a few of our communications to each other (the last two) to my therapist. As I read it to her, I cried. She recognized how much it means to have someone, who has also been through it, finally get it (and she said, gets you). She understood the flood of relief one feels. It's like a wave of relief washing over me. I feel that I can be honest and say that she feels it's a good thing. (Of course, she recognizes that not all people who would respond in this forum would be either empathetic or appropriate).

"I think having been raised by people like this, it is very easy for us to spot these people. Don't give up looking for the good ones. I think it is harder for us to see good people, because it is so foreign to what we grew up with. I mean really, how are we suppose to find and trust good people, if the people who are suppose to be good to us, and who we are suppose to trust the most, our parents, completely and totally violate our relationship with them? I mean really, how are we suppose to do this??? And yet, we need to figure this out."

So true and I agree. It's been a struggle for me too, and I am making progress. Unfortunately, my husband has not been very helpful. He was not that way intially. I think it easier for him to frame me as the problem, than to face his own issues. He finds people that are like his parents (manipulating, controlling, selfish) and then the same issues resurface--the pattern to repeat. I've sought my own friends, which made him feel left out and abandoned. We are working on this.

"I guess this is what it comes down to. They have forced us to chose between being being obliterated in a relationship with them, or having a life estranged from them."

John Bradshaw wrote a book about family roles and relationships. I don't recollect the exact name. Parent's chose roles for their children and in some families those roles become fixed and rigid. If someone wants to leave that role, then the family becomes unstablized and unbalanced. It doesn't matter how unhealthy the role may be...That isn't life--that's a cell and a prison sentence--these parent's who feel that their children owe them. Didn't they have them because they wanted them?

I spoke about estrangement issues with her and she said because of the self-focus of the parents that she didn't like family couseling. The parent's focus is always the self--they want their children to understand them (it's all about their needs). The children then say, but I was the child and you were/are the parent. These parent's treat their children like they are emotional benefits.

What you said to Sage, and what she says, I can really relate to that description too, "What has confused me in the past is that my parents would say that they "love" me, but what it felt like is that they just wanted to manipulate me to meet their needs with complete and total disregard for what I feel and think."

You are right it is crazy-making and no one needs to be loved like that--concluding that you are mentally defective, when you tell them how their behaviors feel. It is crazy-making.

One wonders what they get out of it--their ego's are so fragile--they can't face the truth about themselves, so they displace it to others. I'm doing a bit better and I will probably write more tomorrow...

Colleen777,

I don't get why you are insulting Dave, or your questions? What is that about?

Hi Flower, I'm glad you are feeling better.

I hope you can work things out with your husband. I know my upbringing made it difficult for my wife and I to get along at times. She had a few issues too. We've talked through a lot of these issues and how they were manifested in our relationship. It was very painful at times, but we stuck with it, and I believe we are better off now having worked through a lot of this. Getting along well with her helps keep me sane in dealing with my parents.

I really agree that this forum helps us not feel so alone with our parental problems. I know it helped me stay strong through a difficult time I just had with my parents during Christmas. I'm glad I found this place.

"...these parent's who feel that their children owe them. Didn't they have them because they wanted them?" I know for a fact my mother got married because she was pregnant with me. I'm probably more a result of drunken lust, than true love. Maybe that explains some of this. Still, they act like I exist only to satisfy them and their needs and wants. And it does become an emotional prison. No thanks.

So gradually we start figuring out that we were raised by crazy-people, and then we have to try to figure out what normal is so that we don't turn into crazy-people ourselves. This isn't the easiest thing to do is it? But it's got to be better than following in their footsteps.

I hope you continue to get healthier. I'm not going to be back on-line again until Friday. I've got a lot going on the next few days. Peace.

Dave

Hello Flower, Dave, welcome Infynyty,

I posted a message before I left, but I see it didn't post after all! Anyways, I was away for a few days, just got home from a little holiday. A nice break, and time to clear my mind. I am so glad the holiday season is over! I know that sounds Grinchy, but I am relieved it is over and I survived! Actually, it was the best Xmas I have had for quite a few years. And I have not sent my letter yet, but I will.

Infynyty, I can relate to what you say. I hope this forum will help you come to terms with your relationship with you mom and sister. It helps to read what others have gone through. The emotions run so deep and I can relate to your sadness and frustration. It is such an individual thing, and we all must find our own way to deal with it. I don't think it is ever entirely possible to just turn off our feelings towards our parents....we just have to learn to deal with the feelings in a way so that what they say and do does not so negatively impact our own lives. Setting boundaries for yourself. Keep posting and hang in there, things will get better.

Flower, Glad you are feeling better. I didn't get sick this Xmas, as I do nearly every single year, I think it is because my stress level was lower than usual this year. I tend to get ill only when I am stressed. I sure agree with the fakeness, and pretending issues. And my parents are major ego maniacs. Good point. They can't look at themselves, not even for a second, so they just attack. And well my brother is all about being superficial, so they just adore that and get lost in that fantasy land.

Dave, I am glad I found this place too. It has helped me immensely through this most difficult time of year. My mother actually did get married because she was prego with me, I know that for a fact because I figured it out one time on their anniversary, compared it with my age (!), I remember being shocked, it was when I was about 10yrs old and I questioned them. They said they were going to get married anyways. Ya right. Maybe that is part of why we never really bonded? I have thought about that from time to time. I think that some people have kids because they feel that they want/need someone to take care of them when they are older. It is out of fear and it is so selfish. Obviously, I was unplanned, so that was not the case! ...sigh...

To tell you the truth I did not realize how 'crazy' my parents were until I was close to 30 yrs old. I just was always trying to please them, and gain their approval, I was being fake myself by pretending everything was just great, I went through the motions, and I was positive I could fix things and make them better. I stuffed my own emotions over this time, which was years, and that nearly killed me. I was doing what they did, avoidance and pretending, which is sad and makes me angry. But at least I do not do that anymore.

My husband never spoke negatively about my parents or my brother, or ever snapped at them as I have. He is ultra patient and always kept his cool when everyone was flying off the handle. But just talking to my husband about them, reflecting on what they have done, just honestly going through the events that transpired, made me really realize how nuts the whole situation with them has been for so many many years.

Good point Dave, I say that all the time about not ever wanting to be like them. I refuse and it disgusts me to even think about being like them. I am proud that I can say how I feel, I can say 'I love you' to those I care about, I genuinely care and am sensitive to the needs of others, and I can confront problems head on and not just avoid things that were not pleasant as they did.

I have had my share of difficulities in relationships as well, particularly with a fear of abandonment, and it is often irrational (at least I can see it is irrational now, for a long time it was just fear). I know that stems directly from them. I never felt loved, included, or worthy of anything. I have just struggled and struggled to gain their approval, without ever getting it, and feeling like a failure. Some of the issues I have are directly related to my upbringing and the way my parents treated me, it took me a long time to believe that. I guess I did not want to believe it, as I spent a long time hoping it would change, and continuing to try to make things change. Hard to cope with life when your parents coping methods were so lame, and that was all I had to learn from. My parent used drinking, avoidance, and making everything into a joke as methods of dealing with any problem. This I did not see until I was in therapy, and it was a weight off my shoulders when it finally made sense to me. I don't blame them for everything, but some things are so directly related, it is hard to deny. It has not been easy, but it is not an impossible thing to overcome. I still have a long way to go, but I can see how I have made some progress with it.

Take care friends,

Sage

Hi Sage,

"I am so glad the holiday season is over! I know that sounds Grinchy, but I am relieved it is over and I survived!" No, it doesn't sound Grinchy. I'm usually happy it is over with too as it can be stressful. I've always thought it would be fun to travel somewhere and experience something new and different. I'm not really a winter person either. I don't like the short, dark colder days and much prefer--sunshine and longer days--of course, it was really cold where I live.

Sometimes Xmas just seems very commerical, manufactured and phoney...I think, if someone were to get me a gift that I'd rather have it be spontaneous and truly given from the heart, rather than feel it is an obligation with little meaning. I know many people who feel the same--one friend in particular left Xmas eve to go on a much needed vacation. He does't like the phony pretense either and feels a growing estrangement towards his wife and daughters. It has to do with money issues that have come between them all. So I think many people may feel that Xmas is too commercial and stressful. I'm glad that you had a good holiday though and that you got through it okay. That is something positive.

I've done my share of trying to please my parents, husband, siblings, his family and even his associations. It never worked. I started to believe that my feelings mattered and that it was more important to be true to myself, rather than have them all try to dictate my reality and feelings for me. No thanks. You cannot please people like that anyway--they would rather steal your soul, than offer understanding, compassion and empathy-- being the emotional vampires that they are. Forget it.

There is nothing wrong with being a "sensitive" person. I view sensitivity as being aware, and as far as I'm concerned it would be nice to encounter more people who behaved with emotional intelligence and awareness towards others. This isn't the case (I've seldom encountered it). Oh, sure people want you to be sensitive towards their needs, but they do not reciprocate. These types need to be ditched and dumped and I've taken a zero tolerance approach towards the most offensive variety. My husband, in particular has befriended quite an assortment of mindless dolts (inferior quality people) who don't take responsibility for their behaviors, lack appropriate problem-solving abilities and in general mistreat others. These are selfish, inconsiderate lame people who manipulate and take advantage of others. One acquaintance of his tried the old "she's too sensitive," when his wife and now him were clearly in the wrong, rather than meet half way, hear me out or take responsibility. So, he's been banned and excused from futher contact. I don't see why I should have to be exposed to such emotionally primitive people and they will no longer be the recipients of my sensitivty and kindness, since it would be wasted on mindless, clueless fools. I'd prefer to surround myself with quality people who merit my time and attention, rather than the undeserving people who wouldn't appreciate me.

I can really relate to what you said here too, "I have had my share of difficulities in relationships as well, particularly with a fear of abandonment, and it is often irrational (at least I can see it is irrational now, for a long time it was just fear). I know that stems directly from them. I never felt loved, included, or worthy of anything. I have just struggled and struggled to gain their approval, without ever getting it, and feeling like a failure."

I completely understand where you are coming from as I've been there. There are some people that I've felt quite happy and relieved to see them go--these were negative inputters, exactly like the types I mentioned above. I struggled with these issues due to my upbringing, but I believed I deserved and merited better treatment. My husband was not so supportive and remained stuck in unhealthy dynamics. Sadly, he framed me as the problem as "not liking our friends," rather than recognizing their poor treatment or even tolerating my desire to find more fulfilling relationships. These are long stories, but I do see it as being his issues from his family and the difficulties I had with mine. I've made a lot of progress with it too. I will close for now, but wanted to respond to you, before too much time got away from me....

Hi Sage,

Good idea taking some time off!

"I am so glad the holiday season is over! I know that sounds Grinchy, but I am relieved it is over and I survived!" Doesn't sound Grinchy at all. While I have learned to enjoy Christmas with my wife and children, it's also a time that's hard to escape memories of the past emotional pain and darkness of my relationship with my parents and brother. Each year, I shift more towards the positive and away from the dark past. Nevertheless, when it's over, there is still a sense of relief, and that I've survived it.

"I just was always trying to please them, and gain their approval,...". Yeah, at one time I would imagine how impressed they would be, with a promotion I got, or with my financial success, only to become depressed, when they showed no interest in what I done, and went back to bragging about themselves. It was sad how long I hung on, hoping for approval and admiration from them that never came. It was hard to break away from this, but fortunately, very fortunately, I've been able to move on from there.

It sounds like your husband has really helped you. I can say the same about my wife. It just really helps to be around someone who didn't grow up with all this craziness. I don't think I could have dealt with all this alone.

"It has not been easy, but it is not an impossible thing to overcome." I agree! And while I would never have signed up to go through all this, having gone through what I have, I feel like I have a perspective on, and an appreciation of life, that I wouldn't have had otherwise.

Hi Flower, "Sometimes Xmas just seems very commercial, manufactured and phony..." It is and this can be very depressing. I know people who go places like Vietnam or Patagonia over the holidays just to avoid everything. I've also found that I can make my own meaningful Christmas traditions with people I'm close to, and that this has helped me deal with this.

It doesn't sound like a good situation with some of your husband's friends. I know I'm very selective about who I spend time with, and how much time I spend with them. I just don't have time for negative, emotionally draining people. I figure my parents used up whatever tolerance I had for this kind of behavior, so I have no tolerance left for anyone else.

I hope you can find some kind of peace regarding your husband. I know how hard it has been dealing with stress and tension with my parents. I don't think I could handle it, if I also had a lot of stress and tension in my marriage. As I've said to you before, you don't seem to have many allies, and you seem to find the strength to keep going. I'm impressed.

Peace, Dave

Hello Flower, Dave,

I can relate to what you both say about trying to impress your parents. Dave, I used to think the same thing regarding my career. I used to look forward to telling my parents about what I had accomplished with raises, promotions, recognition etc, only to always be let down, as they never really cared. It was always about my brother. OK, maybe his career really is more interesting and exciting than mine, but so what!?!? I resent the fact that they were always so obsessed with him. It is hard to break away from that cycle, I know I have made the break too. It is empowering, because I don't (and never did) 'need' their approval to be happy.

My husband and I have become much more selective on who we let in our lives too. We have no patience at all for people who are critical, unsupportive of us and our business, or just general jerks who are dishonest and not kind to others - 'buzz kills' (as we call them - is that an 80's term?!? lol lol).

My fuse is short with that kind of behavior that Flower describes. It simply is not worth it to have toxic people around and my husband and I have talked about that many times. We 'cut them out' asap now.

In the past, it seemed like I almost attracted these toxic people into my life. And, in hindsight, it seemed like the same cycle as with my parents...I was always trying to help them (too much), fix things for them, I was too giving of love, patience, sometimes even money, I wanted to impress them in a way, and I always ended up getting hurt, used, disappointed, felt abandoned. Hmmmm, it is weird.

Flower, I know it is not easy when it is your husbands friends...it is his choice as to whether he allows these friends to be part of his life...so I hope will someday see the damage they can cause. In the mean time all I can suggest is to keep your own boundaries strong and don't let them affect you too much. And talk to you husband calmly and openly about it if you can.

We have talked about getting away on a tropical vacation for Xmas many times, but have not done it yet. I sure would like to do that one year. Actually, Xmas 2007 was the first time we went away by ourselves. The situation with my parents was really getting me down, it was bad, I was really depressed. So we rented a nice suite out in the mountains, went hiking and then went out for a Fondue for Xmas dinner, and it was really nice. AND the restaurant was packed!! We were surprised. lol In a way I felt like I was running away from it, but after we got there it was great! It felt strange at first, but we had just a fantastic time. I think it is a great idea to use it as a time to travel a little, and most importantly spend time with those who you love. This year we spent Xmas at home, had some friends over through the season, but just spent Xmas day by ourselves and it was nice too. I felt more peace this year than I have any other year. I think it is because I reached the end of my rope with them, and made the decision to cut ties.

I agree Dave, a person has to start their own traditions. The media makes us believe it is ALL about family and extended family..but it is not. Hard to break away from that mindset though, it is deeply ingrained in society. Xmas has no religious signifigance to us as our beliefs are more based on spirituality. But making the holidays special in your own way is OK. It is better than avoiding the season, and being depressed about it. I know, it is easier said than done, and I still do get down....but working towards changing their own mind is all a person can do I suppose.

Flower, I am impressed by your strength too. I know the damage my parents caused me really affected my self esteem and all aspects of my life, and has pushed me at times to the point of breaking down. Without my husband for support, I am not sure I would have made it. All marriages have ups and downs, and I hope you will come to common ground on the friend issue - it is important, because those types of friends can cause alot of tension in your own relationship.

Dave, Flower, Silver, I just want to toss out my email address, just in case this board ever disappears. So, if you wish, please drop me a line. And if you do not want to, that is OK too. :)sage121121@yahoo.ca

Have a great weekend friends! Sage

Hi Sage,

"In the past, it seemed like I almost attracted these toxic people into my life." Yeah, me too. In retrospect when I was younger, it seemed like my lack of feeling much self worth, or having much self respect, resulted in me pursing risky, wreckless, self-destructive, activities and relationships. It's hard to say what really pulled me out of this. I tell my wife I must have a guardian angel. Fortunately, my wife didn't meet me until I was 31 years old and the worst of this was behind me.

"Xmas has no religious significance to us as our beliefs are more based on spirituality." One thing that I believe has helped me become more sane is in growing spiritually. In an earlier post I wrote about "enlarging our window" in which we view life. Growing spiritually has helped me acknowledge and deal with the pain in my life, without letting it blind me to the joy that is also there.

I was hoping I was done hearing from my parents for a while, with the holidays over, but I wasn't so lucky. My mother, staying in top form, sent my wife a package for her birthday which is on the 13th this month. This wasn't just any package, this was a package with every photograph we have sent my parents since 1993, when our first child was born. Also included in the package were photos from my childhood, and post cards I had sent my parents from all over the world. My mother said, she thought my wife would like to have all these for scrapbooking. Of course my mother writes a pleasant note and makes no mention of our estrangement. My mother knows we only sent her duplicate pictures. So the message she is sending is that she doesn't want any of these photos in her house, and sends them to us, even though we have the originals. And she does this while acting as though she is being helpful. And this is a birthday gift for my wife. I'm not making any of this up. Really.

I've decided this time not to respond to this. In this case it seems the best response is no response. In the past things like this had the potential to make me crazy for several days. I find this event unpleasant, but not enough to cause me to think about it very much. More than anything, she continues to provide evidence that being estranged from them is the best thing I can do. They are both completely nuts.

Anyway, I hope all is well. Peace.

Dave

Hello Dave,

I agree, the reckless behavior is related to a lack of self-worth. I really put myself into some bad situations in the past and I don't know what pulled me out of it either. Pure survival instinct I think. I sometimes say the same thing, I must have had an angel on my shoulder. I always feel lucky and appreciative to have regained control of my life, and developed self esteem to be able to enjoy the great life that I have now! I didn't meet my husband until I was past all of that either, thank goodness!

My spirituality has helped me in many aspects of my life, and in particular in dealing with the hatred I feel towards my parents. I tend to get very self-absorbed and depressed about the past when I stress about it too much. It smothers me, and I have a hard time detaching myself from it. My spirituality has helped to give me alot of peace and perspective to see 'the bigger picture' and enjoy what I do have in the present, instead of having so much resentment about the past.

Oh no, sorry to hear about the parcel Dave!! I can't imagine what she was thinking when she packed up those pictures. What she did is bizarre and disturbing, and it is good you recognize that. I agree, the best response is no response. I think you are doing the right thing. And good for you for not letting this get under your skin and upset you for days on end. Not worth it! I have adopted that stance too, I am not going to react anymore. Hang in there...

Sage

How do you think I insulted Dave other than the fact that he said I did and that I was too weird for him? Now, if Dave doesn't want to answer my completely innocuous but revealing questions that is something else entirely. This turned out just about exactly how I guessed it would.

Thought some of you might find this site interesting-I did!

http://ideastoaction.wordpress.com/dr-bowen/bowen-theory/emotional-cutoff/

Hello Dave & Flower,

"I hope you can find some kind of peace regarding your husband. I know how hard it has been dealing with stress and tension with my parents. I don't think I could handle it, if I also had a lot of stress and tension in my marriage. As I've said to you before, you don't seem to have many allies, and you seem to find the strength to keep going. I'm impressed."

Thank you for what you say here. It has been difficult. I would have responded sooner, but I've had a relapse (cold/flu)--it's been dragging on. I've asked my husband many times to see a counselor with me and he has refused. He was angry and resentful towards me claiming that I was asking him to do all the changing (never thinking about what he was asking of me). I felt that I was being pro-active in my relationship and that to seek counseling was a positive step, as well as a loving one. I know he has regrets. I'm trying to work through this. I've just felt overwhelmed with health issues, chronic pain issues and then dealing with my mother and my MIL died a few years ago now. It has been overwhelming. My health issues alone were overwhelming and not feeling that anyone around me was either sensitive or supportive, but instead self-centered, thoughtless and unreasonable.

I only have so much time and energy to deal with issues, so I made a decision to focus on my health (it really wasn't a decision or choice, but a necessity and something I had to do) and take care of myself. I also made a decision to not socialize with his selfish, negative associations. The way I decided to approach problem-solving is that I've declined any contact with his associations. That is a current solution, but doesn't mean forever. I just can't deal with more issues stemming from his inability to set boundaries on other people's inappropriate and selfish behaviors. If he refuses to be supportive and address the situation, I feel I have no other alternatives. I do not think it unreasonable to ask him to participate in problem-solving, especially when it involves people who he has brought into my life and even more so when these people are negative, angry, thoughtless and irresponsible and when they refuse to take responsibility for their inappropriate behaviors. It's been a very difficult situation for me. I get very tired of the "I didn't mean too," or "I didn't intend too," response to behaviors which are destructive and clearly unreasonable.

Yes, these people have caused a lot of tension and he is aware of that, but he is unwilling to take steps to resolve it, or look at his own issues. Under the circumstances I really don't know what else I can do, because he makes excuses, or offers reasons as excuses. That doesn't help solve a problem. One still has to deal with the behaviors and it causes tension and emotional distance. I'm selective about people, he isn't and it starts to feel emotionally abusive being exposed to chronic situations around negative people. He just seems to attract people like his family and keeps replaying some of those issues.

Early on I started some of our own Xmas traditions and that helps. I think I would still prefer getting away and immersing myself in something else. Last year, his sister and father (recently divorced for the 3rd time) invited him (only him) to join them in Hawaii for Thanksgiving. He declined, telling me that he wouldn't leave his wife for the holiday. That was good, but I wish he had the emotional strength to stand up to them and tell them how he feels. To be honest, it is very hurtful that he doesn't. It's hard to explain the situation, but he'll walk a mile to avoid any type of conflict or confrontation, and not learning how to stand up for oneself or learning how to deal with conflicts is self-destructive and foolish. He always wants me to do it for him, so that all the abuse will be directed towards me and people will think he is a "nice guy". That places me in a horrible situation. He can't even say NO to telephone solicitors.

Since his mother died, he seems less angry, unhappy and less difficult to live with. The stress and stain of dealing with someone--so selfish, angry and abusive was devasting to everyone. I have difficulties with my own family, but their behaviors were more openly hostile and targeted towards me and not him. His family targeted me as well, but he would not talk to them about it and would cave into their demands. Perhaps I should write more fully about what his mother did, but right now I cannot bring myself to do so. I may not be saying this well, but of the two families (his) really caused a lot of chaos and their behaviors had a much greater and far reaching negative impact on our lives. My mother has her issues, but her downward spiral into mental health issues was more recent (unfortunately).

Yes, I'm strong, but I also have my vulnerabilities. I've been prone to episodes of depression, especially under stress and that has felt chronic and debilitating. I have one friend who tells me how strong I am (he lives miles away) and he says that he feels that anyone else would not have been able to survive and be the person that I am. I hold this close to my heart, because I just don't hear it and I've felt far too alone and misunderstood. It has as you would say left me feeling like I had no allies or understanding people in my life.

I will post this and write more later, I'm still here and didn't want too much time to go by before I posted again.

Hello Dave,

"Of course my mother writes a pleasant note and makes no mention of our estrangement. My mother knows we only sent her duplicate pictures. So the message she is sending is that she doesn't want any of these photos in her house, and sends them to us, even though we have the originals. And she does this while acting as though she is being helpful. And this is a birthday gift for my wife. I'm not making any of this up. Really."

This sounds like cruel behavior and I can understand how you would find it hurtful. I know I would. I agree with Sage, that is is disturbing and bizarre behavior and I'm glad that you recognize it for what it is. It sounds like she is very childish, emotionally immature and filled with resentment. It's hard to know what she was thinking when she packed the pictures up. I do regret the pain that she is causing you. I think your response is the best response given the situation. A good many people go through life oblivious and clueless. I doubt confronting them about their behavior would yield productive results (on their end) as typically they would probably deny or make excuses and would not address situations honestly. I've learned this with most people and I wish it were not so.

"More than anything, she continues to provide evidence that being estranged from them is the best thing I can do. They are both completely nuts."

I agree and would probably deal with it in the same way. It's definately very alienating behavior. I'm glad though that you have adopted the stance that you have and see the behavior for what it is. I'm glad you have this forum to talk about it, because I know it helps. Take care and I'll probably post more tomorrow....

Sage, "My spirituality has helped to give me a lot of peace and perspective to see 'the bigger picture' and enjoy what I do have in the present, instead of having so much resentment about the past." I've had a very similar experience. It's helped me be less angry about the past; it's helped me not agonized over things I have no control over; and it's helped me appreciate the good things I do have in my life.

Sage & Flower, Thank you so much for the support and understanding regarding my mom's crazy package. Sage you are so right that it is, "bizarre and disturbing", and Flower, saying she is "very childish, emotionally immature and filled with resentment", describes her perfectly. I feel like I'm making progress, when things like this don't send me into an emotional tailspin. In the past I would have been very upset, felt compelled to write to her, to tell her how I felt, only to have her respond in a way that would set me off all over again. The only way to stop this, is to stop reacting to her. The support and understanding I have gotten in this forum has helped give me some of the insight and strength I needed to do this. Thank you so much!

Flower, Sorry to hear your cold is getting you down. I hope you can get rid of it.

"I've asked my husband many times to see a counselor with me and he has refused." It must be very frustrating to want to improve your relationship with your spouse, only to have him reject your effort. He must know at some level that if he goes into therapy with you, he will have to deal with his own stuff too. Apparently, he's not ready to do this. It unfortunate that he doesn't just say this, instead of trying to make it all your problem.

"I only have so much time and energy to deal with issues, so I made a decision to focus on my health..." This sounds like a very clear and rational approach, and I agree health needs to be our top priority. Other things can wait. I am glad to hear you are setting boundaries with your husband's friends. This should help you focus on getting healthy.

It sounds like it would be good for you to get away on the holidays. I bet if you did, you would probably find more people like yourself who are thinking the same thing. This sounds like it's worth giving serious consideration.

"Yes, I'm strong, but I also have my vulnerabilities. I've been prone to episodes of depression..." I feel overwhelmed just reading about all the stress in your life. I think I would be more than prone to episodes of depression. I think I'd be in a fetal position, and not functioning at all. And yet you find a way to keep going. My heart goes out to you. Keep finding ways, to keep going. Peace.

Dave

Hello Flower, Dave,

Flower, Your health comes first, and I am glad you have put that first. Take good care of yourself. I give you alot of credit for continuing to remain open and honest with your husband. But you cannot make up his mind for him, and I know you know that, he himself has to be ready to seek help.

I can relate to your husband in respect to attracting destructive people, and it is indeed related to patterns which he is copying from his own family history. I do believe it was the same case with me. I can relate to the fear of even considering going to therapy, the fear of admitting you have a problem to deal with, and fear of having to bring up and deal with all the emotions from the past. I put off going to therapy for years and years. And suffered.

The destruction is not something you really see while you are in the midst of the mess with toxic people around you. Only in hindsight you can see just how bad it was. I am not defending your husband, because I think he needs to wake up and see the hurt he is causing you. So I hope he will see what is happening, for your sake, and for his own sake too. Hang in there, take care of YOU and find your own way.

Dave, lol "Crazy Package". Good name for it! Because that is what it is. I can really understand how disturbing that must have been, but I am glad you are taking it for what it is worth and not letting it get to you. I wonder if I will get a package like that someday? I would not be surprised if I did...that is something my own mother would do.

And speaking of pictures, I have to share this. Last time I was at my parents house, which was years ago, when I went home for a funeral, I went into the living room and there was this huge collage hanging on the wall (5ft X 3ft at least, maybe even bigger) of pictures of my brother, and his wife. I walked up to it, put my hands on my hips, and felt my jaw drop...and my mother saw me. But of course she said nothing. And well, neither did I. By that point I had already for the most part given up. It wasn't even jealousy that I felt, I don't know what I felt. I sat down on the sofa and saw this little picture from our own wedding on a corner coffee table (a poorly lit corner!), picked it up, smiled, and put it down. She said nothing and then proceeded to babble about the weather, or something like that. Ha ha ha. Oh my, that just says it all, doesn't it? I forgot about that. It is so unbelievable, but it is true. At the time I dwelled on the thought of that day for quite some time, too much time. I can see how crazy it is though, and how blaring the message was that was sent out by the events of that day. At least she saw me looking at the shrine. She must have felt silly, or maybe not(?) ....sigh... Knowing her, it was probably killing her that she could not go on and on to me about every single picture and brag about her son's wonderful life. That is probably all that was going through her mind. It is just weird.

Have a good day, take care,
Sage

Hi Sage,

It's hard to imagine what your parents were thinking when they so obviously, and blatantly favored your brother, knowing that you had to be aware of this. I don't know how parents do things like that. Prominently displaying a huge collage of your brother's pictures, and doing nothing for you, is just so over the top.

Growing up, when I would be upset with my parents, they would brush it off, and say that when I was a parent, I would understand why they did what they did. They lied to me. I have two teenage boys now, and I can't imagine under any circumstances doing to my boys, what my parents did to me and my brother. All I've come to understand is that they were selfish, angry, cold, cruel, harsh, disrespectful people who didn't deserve to have children. I cannot possible understand, under any circumstances, why they would treat their own children the way they did. I don't think that's what they had in mind when they said, "I would understand, when I became a parent".

Anyway, I'm glad you have gotten away from this painful situation with your parents and your brother. Good for you!

I'm going to be away from my computer for a couple of days, I'll check back in again on Friday. I hope your week is going well. Peace.

Dave

Xanax is one of those medicines which help in relieving anxiety and depression, but this medicine should only be used for small duration as this is habit forming drug and sometimes the withdrawal symptoms can be more depressing. The withdrawal from this medicine is a slow and gradual process rather than abrupt. Xanax works by slowing down the nervous system and hence relieves anxiety. The best way to get over anxiety and depression is to take a break from your regular schedule, go out, and take good sleep. This helps in clearing the mind and try consulting a specialist who can suggest you as how you can get over your problem.

As a parent of an estranged son, I have to say that I'm at a loss over why this is happening so much. The world is going to surely end up a VERY bitter place seeing this trend.

My son wanted a mother who would allow him to fail school, smoke pot and have sec with multiple girls in my basement (even caught him getting a blowj__) in the basement one time and I'm not allowed to mention to discuss that going on in my home. He was 16 at the time. In any case, he has now estranged himself from me and even takes full responsibility. He tells me via email, "I just wanted to do what I wanted." So he moved in with his wife beating, alcoholic father who will smoke spice and get drunk with him. How sad.

My boys were raised in a drug free, alcoholic free (no, not religious freaks) home. No abuse of any kind. They were both eagle scouts, A-B students, etc. Great family times, spent lots of time and we talked, talked, talked. They used to tell me I was the best Mom in the world. They were offered half college and they could live at home free to attend college. They both are angry that I wanted these things for them. Funny, some kids are angry their parents don't help them with college and estrange them for stuff like that. I don't get it. Anyway, my boys have since rejected it all and my oldest is now 19 and $10K in debt and has warrants. He has been homeless in the past year. My now 17 year old, is with dear old Dad. His hero now. So, I suppose I needed to serve him vanilla ice cream and made the mistake of serving chocolate. Too bad we are not give a rule book when they came out of the womb that explains what flavor to serve that child.

It's heartbreaking and I can't help but think this "entitlement" generation is so caught up in how they should be served exactly this way and that, they have forgotten that, they themselves, are wanting acceptance and forgiveness for being utterly human, individual, and yes, even flawed. I say, look in the mirror and ask yourselves how PERFECT you are to everyone in your life. I am just a Mom who loved and still loves two boys who reject me because they prefer reaching bottom. I wanted the best for them and tried with everything I knew to help them get it.

I don't have the answer and I've simply let go.

This thread has been dead for a while (with the recent exception) so I don't anticipate that anyone will read this. Until tonight, I hadn't considered looking online to find solace in this issue but here it is. I've been estranged from my parents for almost four months now by choice. I'm 36 years old, married, two kids. My parents didn't beat me (unless you called getting "whippings" with a belt until you were 12 a beating) in the typical sense. My dad was a silent alcoholic - no verbal or physical abuse, he just never talked, ever. Besides the fact that we had diametrically opposed views on life - he is a Republic, a racist, a military man, you get the point. My mom was the closest person to me and vice versa. But as I grew older, our relationship became toxic. I had to be her therapist and listen, for years, about how terrible my dad was, how crappy her life was, all the mistakes she made, all the regrets she had. Since I was a teenager, I've heard nonstop how they didn't want me to go to college (or pay for it, that's fine, I did it myself) because they thought I would look down on them and have suffered every year since I was 18 with one of their massive freak-outs. Every year for 15 years. Then when I was 28, I had sent my mom a dozen roses for her birthday. She called me and started screaming at me saying how inconsiderate I was, sending her a gift at the last minute, that she threw them in the trash. It was devastating to me. It seemed like they just wanted to beat the self worth from me the stronger I got. From that point forward (we didn't speak for a couple months) I decided I could no longer be my mom's therapist. It was making me an emotional wreck. I met my now husband at that time and, looking back, they were always resistant to him. Comments how i had my own life and was too busy for them. Especially after we got married. They didn't want to pay for the wedding because my husband had such a large family they didn't think it was fair. Fine. But it was always like this - them picking fights with everyone (if not myself). Then much more stuff. The details. The everyday details. The nagging, the comments, the insults. They didn't invite my husband and I over for Thanksgiving so I went to their house crying wanting to know why they didn't want to spend the holidays with us. She stood there stone cold. Then what finally ended it for me was when she called me at working screaming at me saying so many terrible things about me (basically complaining about watching my girls a couple times a week for daycare) that I told her she would never have to watch them again and hung up. That was four months ago. When you read it, you think, this seems stupid. It all was. But it was incidious. It was like a slow death. How they hurt me every day. When she started saying things about my first child (entering her terrible two's and exiting that sweet baby stage), red flags went up. I knew that she would be next on her attack list. I had suffered through it, my husband, his mother, our cousins, her sisters. They had managed to drive everyone away. I was the last one as the only child. In many respects, I don't care about myself, I care about my children. That's why I ended it. I told them that I wasn't going to continue playing these games. They demanded an apology. I demanded family counseling. They refused. So I'm done. In hurtful relationships, we all have our role. It's short sided to think you've done nothing wrong. You obviously did if someone left you. They've scarred me. I feel broken and I need to find a way to become whole for the sake of my girls. They don't deserve this angry rotten mess I am now. I've probably just successfully turned into my mother. I'd rather kill myself than put my children through what I've gone through.

I have been estranged from my father for 3 months, by his choice. I have thought about reconnecting and then I remember all the rude comments, the insistant and endless conversations about how I don't care about him (I do) or I have not supported him (I have) and how I don't love him (I do) and I thought...do I need to be treated like this? No. I do not. And so I have let this distance grow and grow. There are days when I feel guilty but not enough to wade back through that again. I'm glad I'm not the only one.

I can also relate to all these posts,

First of all I'd like to begin with saying leaving home and starting a new life is highly recommended by me. "If only I could do it again?" The first time I left home was at age 16. It was the best decision I have ever made with the help of my boyfriend, his family and other friends families who had taken me in. I still remember getting my first apartment at age 17 w/rmmates of course, but the relief of not having to worry about my house being watched by the police and the phone being tapped or being told to drop to the floor when visitors would stop by was well worth sharing an apartment with strangers. By age 19 I had developed into my own responsible person. My Mom had been estranged but my siblings still kept in contact with me. My H.S. Graduation is what brought my Mom and I back together and her house wasn't taken from her so I thought moving back home wld be perfectly fine. A NEW BEGINNING....What a failure my Mom was and I was dragged down with her.

Now at the age of 39 and with 2children, I wld suggest choose one road or the other. I shld have stayed on the road I had chosen. I had developed my own identity and was perfectly happy sharing holidays with friends and their friends and more. Moving back, looking back, mixing a toxic relationship is just pure venom and the worst decision I had ever made.
I am still searching for my Freedom from Recentment! A Mother who never apologizes, and moves on with life as if nothing ever happened is the worst life can bring my way.

It was such a relief to read these posts, to relate to others and most of all thankyou to the person who started this thread. Good Luck to all!

Mom and Dad,

I�ve tried to write to you countless times; letters, notes, cards and pages, explaining why, wishing you the best, suggesting conditions that would enable me to spend time with you, making accusations, chronological lists of events, thanking you.

Each time I write I imagine your responses in my mind: anger, pretend hurt, phony acceptance, threats, accusations, passive aggression, attacks, manipulation, bitterness, false promises, rage, danger, unreasonable crying, frustration, depression, alcohol fueled conversations about me, arguments, paranoia, blame, maybe leading to physical violence, avoidance, denial, irrational attempts to contact me or force me to come back, suicide.

And each time I write I end up hitting a wall, feeling again the impossible hopelessness of our relationship, and then I give up writing, discouraged and exhausted. And so maybe I need to be okay with this lifelong failure to reach you or establish a connection � I need to be okay with giving up. I think it�s the hardest solution of all but the only one that will stop the cycle.

God I accept the things I cannot change,
Help me to change the things I can,
and grant me the wisdom to know the difference.

Finally, I will imagine that you agree to give up too. Mostly that you give up on what was our family and go on with your lives. But I also would hope that you give up on everything for the rest of your lives including your pride and you keep giving up and letting go until you experience an agonizing personal death into nothingness, until all of your identities and shame and fear can dissolve, and you realize the innocent unknowable nature at the core of existence, and know a peace which underlies all things.

Thank you so much for this thread! It is hard to find someone who understands. It means a lot to come here and read this and know that other people have felt the same. It is painful. This estrangement is really the last thing that I ever saw myself doing or wanted in my life. Not having my parents is the thing I will always hurt.
Does anyone know of an email list or forum that deals with these issues ? I've been looking for one for a while but I can't find one.

Marisa