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Women's opinion of men.

Posted by jonesy (My Page) on
Mon, Mar 31, 08 at 22:54

I was only close to one person outside the family most of my adult life, my contacts were mostly sisters, Mom and Dad and in laws. Since my husband died I have started socializing with women, one particular 4 or 5 times a week. I have heard some opinions that I thought was odd and one was down right shocking. I am a little worried about discussing this subject, but was so shocked when my friend said this. Have I been to sheltered all of my life or do others feel like this. Something bad must have happen to this lady in her younger years for her to feel this way. The shocking statement was that "any man would rape women, molest children and have sex with animals....IF they thought they could get away with it". I don't believe this for a minute. I have been married twice, 15 years with the first husband 33 with the second. They were not like that, neither would physically hurt a child or hit a woman.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Hi Jonesy,
I was just reading your last thread again about flirting and you mentioned you started a new one, so I jumped to this thread. This friend of yours has me a little worried. The statement about men she has made and her ideas about flirting are off the mark. It sounds to me that you are the one with a healthy attitude about life. I am now going to go out on a limb and give you my opinion. Here it goes: Surround yourself with people who have good attitudes and healthy thoughts. She sounds a little like she's on the dark side (sorry and I hope I haven't offended you). Don't go down that path with her. Ugh! I agree with you about her past. There are probably reasons why she feels the way she does. These comments will continue.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

BJ, sorry to burst your bubble, but that's naturally what happens in the animal kingdom, and men are wired no differently - they are hard-wired to procreate. Yes, they would do those things if they could get away with it. In fact, there are many that do these very things in today's world!

I was raised on a farm - dogs, cats, cattle, sheep, hogs, horses - all animals - copulate with whichever female of their species that is in season - they don't differentiate between their own offspring, mother, aunt, sister - they are wired to 'do it' and they indeed 'do it'!

Most men have been raised, through the centuries,to deny those natural urges/instincts, but it hasn't always been this way.

Do some studying on creation - there are gobs of pictures and stories depicting incest, homosexuality and beastiality, because that's the reality of it.

There are still some men and women, in this day and age, who do it. Though it might be alarming to someone who has led a sheltered life, I can't imagine, with our education system, ANYONE not knowing this fact of nature. If one is the least bit religious, all one needs to do is read the bible - it's all in there!

During the early 70's, I knew of a lady who performed beastiality in a circus during in her younger years!


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RE: Women's opinion of men.wer

Kay, You can't burst my bubble, I don't believe all men would act like animals. I know the drive is strong in humans as it is in animals, but I don't think "all" men would physically hurt women and children if they knew they wouldn't be caught. I understand about the past for instance 200 years ago the homes were more like kingdoms the strongest hung onto his land and weakest lost theirs. Their lives were violent and they considered women nothing but slaves. They thought that was ok, it's not that way now. I agree a lot of men cheat, but not physically hurt women and children. You are saying their instincts are to do it, and you say "some men and women still do". That may be true, but that is not "all" men and that doesn't me all men act on their instincts. She is showing severe signs of memory problems. When I tell her something, later she remembers it wrong. An example: I told her a neighbor Patio Development are doing their own mulching to keep their dues from going up. Later she swore that our directors are going to do that here, she said it was discuss at our HOA meeting and it wasn't.

DirtDiva, I agree with you and about my friend I have been distancing myself from her since we came back from our cruise. She is a snob and I think she puts up with me not out of choice, but because I am only a way for her to eat out and be with someone.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Hi, BJ. By 'all' I saying that NO man is differently hard-wired than any other man. Some can control their sexual urges and some can't, but it's because they have to control those urges or go to prison when they get caught. Yes, I meant ALL men are wired that way - it's a fact of nature. Whether they act upon those urges isn't what's being debated here.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

BJ, I really can form complete sentences - LOL - that should read "I was saying" - sorry about that!

Also, I wanted to say that the words "burst your bubble" is something our Priest says to us in his Sunday sermons - I meant it as a 'funny'. Jo


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Disappointed to learn that I'm naturally a rapacious, beastial pedophile. Feeling much better about my self-control these days although I don't see myself seeking out kayjones for a date any time soon.


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As olo, I could have told you, after the first post I ever read from you, that you would never have a date with me!!!!


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hmmmm, sounds like TSL is finally coming back to life here -

I really don't care what other's "practices" are at this point. A lot plays into so many things that we do, or even don't do, in our lives. So yes, the past will bring to light many of the seemingly bad things about our human psyche and behaviors. But as for me, I prefer to remain mainstream according to today's standards. I'm sure that if someone were to examine our current lifestyles, they would be amazed - either we were full of pizzaz or we were so meek. That part really scares me because we are headed in that direction; aren't we -forward??? Things are so loose from a cultural standpoint, I really wonder what the future holds. As far as my thougts regarding men - they all can be dogs, in some form or fashion. But you can bet, I still want them around. Women can be just as callous sometimes. Some men have just been exposed to the propers of caring for/ about their fellow "man". That being said, "propers" is quite subjective, so I will say that most men have been raised to respect one-another, including women. Also, if given the opportunity, a lot of women would relish the opportunity to abandon those corsettes!!

As far as Jonesy's friend is concerned, What the **&&@@$^^?????!!!! She may be a good friend but to even suggest those things that she stated, I'm sure there are some deep-rooted issues. Not saying she has been mistreated in any way, but her thought processes seem to be a little skewed. But, they sometimes say I'm the same way, and I think I'm a great friend. She may a great friend to Jonesy so I will respect that.

Neeeext...


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

ROTFLOL!!!!!!!!


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No she is not a close friend. We were both recently widowed and she won't eat out alone so she like my companionship. But she is a snob and I tolerated it because she didn't show it to often. She is biased towards different lifestyles, Mexicans and blacks. She was telling me what to wear on the ship regarding the "dinners". I asked her how she knew since she had never been on a cruise, she said, "I know protocol". I told her I was not joining the throng of old black crows in the dining room. My goodness if you can wear pink, or any pretty color you want, I don't belong there. I am sure she thinks our other friend is a sl**, but she keeps quiet because the other friend is on a VIP list and she can take a guest to some very exclusive affairs.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Jonesy - Hey ya know, life is funny. It takes all kinds to make up this crazy mixed up world, and your "friend" is just one piece of the puzzle. Seems she does have her quirks and from what you have said, she is just that way - she just has not been enlightened yet. It's tough to hang in there with someone like that because you cannot do anything about that - other than to present alternative experiences for her to ponder. What you are doing is being a caring companion. That in itself is honorable. Some may call that a part of being a friend. But, I can't judge that because only you know where your heart is in that regard. It sounds though that this person's comments about men is just a tip of the iceberg. She just doesn't get it - YET. I have very opinionated "friends" like that. Somedays though I think there are times when they do make sense. I'm just not that rigid in my opinion of folks.

hmmm, again, an interesting thread.


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gneegirl, I understand about friendship. The reason I am distancing myself is that there is more to the situation. I haven't cut her out of my life, just not seeing her 4 or 5 times a week, once a week is enough.

As far as the "interesting thread" goes, I enjoy stuff like this. I often feel I am alone in my thinking and like to know how other's feel. I find people very interesting. I go to a ball game and end up watching the people. LOL


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Hi girls - I just have to jump in here.

First of all, DO NOT listen the that sheep over there - SHE LIES!! LOL

Jonesy - I'm sorry - but your acquaintance has serious problems and with an attitude like that, it wouldn't surprise me one bit that many, if not all, of her interactions with men were less than positive.

Best wishes,
Doc


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Doc thanks for replying. She does have problems and not just with men. It's, all foreigners, anyone who does not live by her standards, It took sharing a room with her on a two week cruise that made up my mind for me. She is afraid of everything, the boat was rocking just enough to make us unsteady on our feet and it scared her. Later when we were in our room, there was a clanging outside, she said they are going to sink us and she was hanging onto the furniture, probably the anchor. I was her social secretary, her body guard and guide. To much like being married. LOL


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Jonesy - your friend owes you a free trip for that one - without her!! That's worse than being married!!


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Rape and incest have nothing to do with sexual urges, so it's wrong to give men the excuse that they are hard wired to procreate. Also, if rape had to do with the urge to procreate, then animals, men, old women , and children would not get raped, because obviously no child is going to result from such a rape.
These urges are urges to humiliate and dominate.
And definitely not all man act like that although many do. I think it is cultural, not physical. Rape doesn't happen with the same frequency in all cultures. Men are taught that the be "real men" they must be dominant,and most of them seem to believe it. I think they are also afraid of other men. If they don't act all tough other men will pick on them.
Too bad more people don't question what they are taught.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Well said Leah. I have faith in the human race and am very positive about everything. As for my friend, she thinks she is right about everything, never apologizes because she believes she is never wrong. Well, I think I will go shopping in a nearby town. They have a Goody's store there, a lot of good buys. Like I need any more clothes. LOL


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Thanks! :-) We don't have any Goody's here, but it sounds like a great store!

I love retail therapy!


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Good name for a shopping trip. LOL They carry name brands and almost everything is marked down. Lots of fun.


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Hey - I like that; Retail Therapy. Funny how spending money gives us that much uphoria - whoo hooo - FREEDOM!!!

Now I gotta pay for all that freedom - shucks!!!


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Illustration of why men don't marry.


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I am not sure what you meant asolo, but I am single and can buy what I want without being criticized by anyone. I was the money person in our family and did a good job. Now I get to spend it.....yea!


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Guess I wasn't talking about you.


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I'm kind of new here. I am from the gardening forums and happen to be a male.

I just have to say that this post shocks me to the core.

Not you Jonesy.

My best friend in the world is a female, and I never raped her. Even if it wasn't against the law and no prisons existed - I couldn't even think about doing something like that.

And kids? I actually volunteer my time at a local preschool/daycare. Never wanted to rape them either.

And animals? I have a lot of dogs and even rescue abused animals in order to find them good homes. I don't want to rape them either.

This would be like me saying that because I caught my ex wife in bed with a friend that all women are cheaters.

It is simply not true.

Hardwired indeed!

I am hardwired to grow vegetables and avoid evil people regardless of their gender.

I don't reckon I will be coming back to this particular forum.

Again, not you Jonesy. I enjoyed the pics and would love to see more from that fantastic adventure - but like I said, I won't be coming back here.


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Well, Trub - you obviously don't handle sorting out meanings in sentences. Like it or not (if you do your research) all through recorded history (and before), until the advent of religion, sex was recognized as a basic biological function, and acted upon. Reality is real, my lost forum comrade - I am sure others will miss you!


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Not sure why our new "friend" is so taken back by this thread. I think everyone is entitled to an opinion without being knocked to the core for it. I will first say that this TSL Forum is open for discussion of our opinions, provided we respect the GW guidelines / regulations for its use, and regardless, also ourselves and each other. That being said, I'm sure our "friend" has thoughts, convictions, lifestyle choices that some of us would question. However, I would not limit conversations - especially those on this board, based on that. I probably would reserve judgement because we are not tied to any one person's view and anyone here should keep that in mind. I listen and politely respond if I so choose, and if something is that bothersome, I choose not to respond.

OK, this is a controverisal subject. But I'm sure that this is not the only place our "friend" has heard these comments. Men and women both make such comments and generalities about the other's gender all the time, and in all types of venues. I think most have expressed similar thoughts even about those that we love and share life with. I must say, it seems a little extreme to me to classify all men in such regard as what our "friend" has referenced. Some of the words spoken here are the same as those within the legal system that would require severe penalites. So, I do say we should be a little more mindful of the severity of our words. However, I don't think that bowing out of this TSL Forum will protect our "friend" from hearing these comments elsewhere. I don't believe that anyone here has malicious intent. This is a fun place and even if we took someone seriously, I think our comments should be taken in context - of this Forum.

So, yes, I'm disappointed in this person's reaction. But it might be good that he's not here. Anyone that sensitive is just as much of a worry as the "original friend" that is the object of this thread to begin with.

Go if you will, and with my best wishes. I just hope that you can lighten up a little about life. Believe me, in my walk of life I've heard, and have been called many an inhumane something or another - and I have no choice but to be around these same people making those comments, EVERY DAY!! But, I'M STILL ALIVE AND KICKING, and LIVING WELL, despite what or where others think I should be.

Sorry - don't want to stir up trouble, but I really believe we all are good-natured here and worth a lot more than the credit our "friend" has bestowed upon us.

miles of smiles all...

gng


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Mary, you are such an articulate and sweet lady - if you told me the earth was square, I'd believe you!

Words are 'everything', but those words need to be dissected and digested and studied before one 'condemns' them. Thanks for your thoughts!

I am afraid our lost 'friend' is afraid of the truth. I wish he would do some research and come back and tell us (honestly) what he found.

As stated earlier man/men is used to portray BOTH genders, not just males - he seems to have missed that all-important part.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

"As stated earlier man/men is used to portray BOTH genders, not just males..."

Um...where exactly was that differentiation made? Seems to me your point was pretty clearly made that it was male propensities that required inhibition. In particular, you said: "...all animals - copulate with whichever female of their species that is in season - they don't differentiate between their own offspring, mother, aunt, sister - they are wired to 'do it' and they indeed 'do it'!"

Don't cop out on us now. We rapacious, bestial pedophiles want clarity!


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Wow, this has taken a turn. My first thought when I read Trub's reply was that he was just a troll trying to stir something up. I still think so because most of the replies to this question confirmed that we don't agree with my neighbor.


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more of the same

Well, I don't agree with your neighbor. Any more than I agree the the stereotypical versions of women's "natural" proclivities. Might as well say that except for enforced inhibitions via societal threats of sanction, everyone is a sexual monster.

I say I am not. I say I would not be whether or not I feared societal sanctions.

Upon learning that my date held such an opinion of my supposed potential via my being male, I would truncate whatever plans were otherwise made, take her home and forget it.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

As olo - so nice of you to add your half-cent worth, again. The man is the stronger of the species - therefore the more agressive, therefore the main character in the story. On the other hand, the female is just as guilty, because, by her very design, she provokes such behavior in the male.

Sex is a basic instinct, which even YOU can't deny - whether you act upon it, I don't know, nor do I care - and it simply FEELS GOOD to both genders. I don't feel that one gender is any more 'guilty/indulging', in seeking sexual satisfaction, than the other.

Being discretionary is optimum, in today's society, but if you watch National Geographic documentaries, even today, in the isolated tribes of people all over the world, they still practice 'natural sexual behavior'. Get over it - IT IS NORMAL behavior for any animal (yes, man is an animal) who hasn't been 'purified' by religion!

Over my adult years, I have become oh-so-glad men are hardwired to persue a female!!! I would not participate in sex with a relative, nor would I have participated as a child, since I was 'religionated', and educated by a very religious mother and school, at a young age, but.....

I will no longer have this natural activity in my life, because my husband passed away one year ago tomorrow, and I will miss him and the sex!

As olo, I don't 'cop' out - I merely try to make things simple, so someone such as yourself can relate to the words. You used the words 'cop out' to describe my words, that doesn't surprise me, coming from you - the all-knowing, superior being that you portray yourself to be.

I have a challenge for you - should you choose to take it (if you don't, then shut up): show us documentation where is says my allegations/comments AREN'T correct! If you can/will do that, I will appologize and shut up.


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It's true humans are animals when you think of what we are made of, we are not vegetable or mineral. Humans know that they are hurting someone and that it is wrong. I don't see how my neighbor and women who share her opinion can live in the kind of world they believe it to be. I would be afraid to go out at night. And if the urge in "all" men would would be to rape women and children and have sex with animals, the streets would be filled with men on the prowl, the law would have no effect on them.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Hi, Jonsey - thanks for continuing to add thoughts to this controversial thread!

Below is a link that brings the whole 'sex vs love' issue into prospective.

I know, in this modern day, it's almost impossible to believe what 'man' is capable of, but it's true. Man has just evolved enough, through the years, to control his natural urges - CONTROL is the operative word here. The instinct is (and always will be) STILL THERE!

Here is a link that might be useful: Animal instincts


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Kayjones.....Oh, no. Don't shut up. I enjoy you as much as anyone. And you didn't "cop out" at all -- you came right back with your explanation. OK!

Busy now. Will read your links and come back. I'm thinking I may have missed your point. Sometimes my attempts at levity fall short, too.


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No problem. I will be quiet on this topic when someone proves me wrong. If I am proven wrong, I will be the FIRST to back off and say 'I'm sorry', but - if I believe I am right, and no one can prove I am wrong, I will defend my position to the end. I hope YOU feel the same about your beliefs and convictions!


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Hey guys - it must be FRIDAY NIGHT!! Haven't had a rant in a loooong time. This is a good one. Hope no one is offended as, like I mentioned before, we are a warm hearted group here. However, the warmth is showing a little more in this thread. Keep up the good work!

Jonesy - see what your friend started - LOL!!

Sex is a basic instinct, and even thought Maslow put it in plain truth, I wonder if he wrote that hierarchy based on discussions like this. Why on earth would one want to study something like basic needs other than as a result of a debate - hmmmm...


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There are lots of web sites that one can do research with regard to this topic. This afternoon, while on my way to Lowes, I heard a radio program, where this Priest was debating this very topic with callers. Even though he was of the eccumenical sector, he had to agree that sex IS a basic instinct. That's what pisses people off - they think it's something unique - it's not - even the lowest form of life HAS SEX! You don't have to possess a brain to have-need-want sex - it's a BASIC INSTINCT, just as are food, fear, . The point that some seem to be missing in these debates is:

When one is hungry enough, he/she will eat ANYTHING. When one's basic instincts kick in, they will do whatever they have to do to satisfy that need. Masturbation is a form of sex - used by many people who wouldn't impose their need on others, for whatever reason.

There are those who are so mentally undiciplined that they DON'T care HOW they get their needs met - ie take a look at robbers who kill for money - they don't stop to think about WHO they kill - they just take a chance that the person in their path, at the time the need hits, HAS SOME MONEY. That person can be a man or a woman, and the one they choose to attack may be the little old lady down the block - no one in particular.

Yes, when religion came into being, ideas changed, man has been made to feel 'guilt' by his actions, but the basic instincts we ALL possess HAS NOT (nor can it be)CHANGED!


Our basic instincts include:

Physical nutrition - The constant need to obtain nutrition to satisfy our hunger. Where is our next meal or water source?


Domination - to be dominant over our territory - they (animals such as dogs, wolves, etc.) mark off the boundaries with urine.


Procreation - The need to reproduce. Males must always defend their dominant position in their group or get up the courage to fight the dominant male so that they will be in a position to mate with the females.


Survival - The need to defend ourselves and surive in our environment. Animals must always be on the alert for danger.


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You go Jo!! Lotta good research too.


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Yes, men have Basic Instincts just like animals do, but they also have one thing animals don't have and that is "Free Will". I believe that's what separates the boys from the beasts.

You can also look at it in terms of Id, Ego and Superego. The Id is man's basic instincts... The ego, man's conscious or reasoning and, the superego, man's unconscious. There is more to man (at least we hope) than just an ID!


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You said that well Carla.


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Quote: any man would rape (have sex with) women, molest (have sex with) children and have sex with animals....IF they thought they could get away with it".
This is a plausable debate/discussion/arguement for me, because I did a college paper on this topic, and have done hours of research to produce the paper (and get an 'A' on it!).


We are talking about nature vs nurture here ie a person's natural instincts vs personal nurturing/education. Animals/humans acquire almost allof their behavioral traits from nature. Then we have to add developmental influences into the saga.

Social consciousness has raised MOST of MANKIND'S actions, at least in the 'modern' world, above basic instinctual behavior. All humans/higher-functioning animals/men/women have the capacity for feeling guilt, but environmental variables determine when that guilt manifests itself and how strong the feeling is.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

OK, back.

Do recall a Lenny Bruce bit where he described males as organisms that, in a pinch, were perfectly willing to do it to mud.

All I can say is that, apparently, my own inhibitions and inculturations (if that's a word) must be working OK.

On the other hand, it is clearly apparent from the daily news that those of many others aren't. In that sense, it surely is a jungle out there. Perhaps I must yield to kayjones' point.

Still, there surely are a lot of fine folks -- women as well as men -- in my neighborhood. I am attracted to some, but don't feel any particular compulsion to copulate with any of them on-the-spot -- much less animals or children or my sister. Whether that's me or my upbringing, I can't speak to. However, respect for and trust in others seems to be a keystone. Some say that's a result of religion. I just think it makes more sense than uninhibited conquest and mayhem. Orgasms are wonderful, but they aren't all.


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aslo, I believe you don't do those things because you are who you are, you were born that way. I think most violent criminals are born that way also. Something is missing in their make up, maybe just a conscience.


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BJ, I respectfully disagree with your statement that criminals are born that way - that's not true.

Criminals are NOT born 'that way' - there are many circumstances that cause children to BECOME criminals. Criminals are the product of the impact of their environment and upbringing. The child starts out like every other child, then becomes the victim of child abuse in some form, and a criminal is the result of abuse over time.


The reason for a criminal mind has been proven: that abused children grow up with a large amount of hate that they do not know how to deal with. Their hate is usually focused on the abuser, but, they are not able to retaliate. One way to cope with the way they feel is to be violent towards everybody else.

Young children need the teaching and guidance of both the mother and the father, and in most cases, the mother has the responsibility of raising the children on her own.

By nature, many of the conditioning factors can only be taught by the male figure in the family, and when the father is absent from the home, the child has a diluted concept of right and wrong. I don't mean to imply that ALL kids, without a father in the home, turn into criminals - I'm merely explaining why those people WHO DO turn into criminals, do so.

That abused child, who has not absorbed the rules of acceptable social behavior, for whatever reason, then becomes an adult who has no conscience.

Conscience is the product of conditioning, and persons deficient in conscience may turn out to be persons who, for various reasons, resist classic conditioning--they do not internalize rules as easily as do others.

When children have not been socialized/conditioned, they have a strong propensity to get what the want, WHEN they want it, by criminal actions.


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Yo, Jonesy...

Must disagree with your "born that way" opinion of violent criminals.

To begin with "criminal" is a man-made definition. Following, compliance with societal norms -- ie non-criminal, acceptable behavior -- is clearly learned. Actually, must be taught/learned. Ease or difficulty of avoiding sanctions is, likewise, learned.

I think, perhaps, you may be referring to an inability or rejection of learning. A honed contrariness, self-interest, and disregard for others, if you will, that has not or cannot be socialized out of some individuals.

I will agree with you if you mean some people cannot be acceptably socialized -- ie "born that way". That is clearly true.


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I knew better than to post again, won't make that mistake again. I am not mad, I just can't debate this because I am having trouble getting across what I mean, I don't use the right teminology. I will only say I still don't believe "ALL" men would rape, molest and have sex with dogs if they thought they could get away with it.


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Post away, Jonesy....say what you think the best you can...which is all any of us do. I'm almost certain kayjones would agree with that encouragement.

I too, obviously, share your problem. (If I get reincarnated, maybe I'll get better abilities at it! Ha!) I've had a hard time acknowledging what I consider to be the base nature kayjones describes. However, I'm not academic enough to refute her. I've fallen back on my view of my world as I know it, and myself as I know myself -- which, unfortunately, doesn't particularly advance the discourse.


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BJ, don't you DARE stop posting! You are a dear and sweet lady, whom I enjoy conversing with.

Asolo is correct - everyone has their base of understanding and belief - I would not ask ANYONE to go along with what I say, just for the sake of not arguing - you have an opinion, and it is valuable, so POST AWAY - we will read and we will comment.

BJ, if you will go back through the posts on this forum, you will see that Asolo and I have been agreeing to disagree since we met the FIRST TIME - I still love reading what he/she says.

If you decide not to post again, that's your right, but I hope you will continue to post - especially on this thread - it is an INTERESTING thread!!!


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I think there should be a distinction made here between animals and humans. Animals do not have a brain, a mind, or a conscience. Humans do.

I just broke off a relationship because my man put all women into the same category which says, "You are not trustworthy." Ultimately then, he holds women in such contempt that he cannot have the loving relationship he so much desires.

I think the person who puts all men into the same category as animals has a similar problem.


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Sayhello, WHERE in heaven's name did you get the idea that animals don't have a brain?! Please do some research before making such uninformed/ignorant statements!!


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Sorry Key. While I don't think anyone who knows me would call me ignorant (masters degree in English), I do apologize for my mistake in writing. Of course animals have brains. What I meant to say is that they don't use them with the same capacity for reasoning the same way that humans do.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Sayhello, a degree doesn't make a person 'smart' - my ex has a PhD, and is not 'smart'.

I was using the literal meaning for 'ignorant' ((a.) Destitute of knowledge; uninstructed or uninformed; untaught; unenlightened), not the slang meaning.

Your statement that animals don't 'reason', as animals in our order do, I don't agree. Lower animals do 'think', have 'moods', respond to stimuli (Pavlov's Law), and feel pain, joy, sadness and many of the same 'emotions' that higher animals do.


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The O.P.'s friend is correct!

Humans are animals/mammals!

All animals with backbones, including humans, are chordates. That is, in the language of taxonomy, they belong to the phylum Chordata. Their subphylum is Vertebrata, meaning that their backbones are segmented.

Mammals, members of the class Mammalia of vertebrate animals that includes humans, are the most highly advanced organisms on Earth. They are warm-blooded, hairy, have four-chambered hearts, relatively large brains, and they suckle their young.

There are 19 orders of mammals in the world - ten of these live in North America. Some orders include a wide range of animals: for example, shrews, lemurs, marmosets, monkeys, apes, and humans are all primates, one order of the class of mammals.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

OK, I acquiesce. Go ahead and call me "ignorant" if you like. But I think you know what I meant.

I'm wondering if this is really the friendly group I had thought originally.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Sayhello, it sounds as if you are pouting - you made the following statement, and I quote:

"Animals do not have a brain, a mind, or a conscience. Humans do."

You have a master's degree in English - you should have known SOMEONE would jump on such an errant statement. I'm sorry that you can't take criticism - I was hoping to have some input from you, but it's your decision.

The word 'ignorant' simply means uninformed, which is what your statement tells me - you are uninformed or perhaps you just can't put your thoughts into words - a master's degree in English should help one with thought processes, how to deliver thoughts to others, ie how to write a correct set of thoughts down, so others can decipher what you mean - you must not be able to do that.

I've been to college, too - they wouldn't have let me out of the class if I couldn't write a concise paper, which could be understood by the professor! I made several mistakes in my two college English classes, and was criticized for those errors, but I didn't stomp my foot and refuse to continue the class! I studied, learned and changed my errors. I got "A's" in both classes, by the way.

How was I to know what you 'meant'? I can only form my concept of your statement based on what YOU WROTE - don't be mad at me!


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

"hello",

We really are a cool bunch - sometimes a little old and crotchety, but don't let us scare you. Some of us get a little louder than others. It has actually been suuuuuper quiet lately so I think everyone is flexing. This is a sensitive topic but I'm actually a little surprised that it has taken this direction. I seriously thought it would have turned more into a gender "battle". But oh well..., it is what it is.

Anyway, glad you are here. I've seen you over on a few other forums. Stick around here for a bit too. Let us know how things are going with your coming out party!!

gng


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Gnee, my dear friend - you are such a diplomat, and I love you for all your efforts to keep peace among the natives! LOL

This topic shouldn't be a sore subject - the facts are cut and dried - not a lot of different directions this discussion can take.

Unless there is further debate from someone, I guess we can assume this case is closed!


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

There is more to life than "facts". There is more to living than "facts". I don't believe for a second that it's a fact that all men would rape women, molest children and have sex with animals if they could get away with it.
I think MOST men have the self will to NOT do what they believe is morally wrong even if they would not be punished for it, because that's how I define getting away with it, being punished.
It's wrong to rape, molest and have sex with animals. Most people will not do what they know is wrong.
I don't have a degree in anything but life lessons, but even I know that.
Let's not debate the fine points, and stick to the subject.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Jean, feel free to live in your 'factless' world - no one will try to change your opinion.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

why are you trying to pick a fight? I never said nor implied that I live in a "factless" world. I said there is MORE to life than just facts. Plllllleeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaasssssssssseeeeeeeee.

And, as someone else has already said, rape and incest are NOT sexual urges. They are about power and humiliation.

Let's not compare apples and oranges


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Jean, I am a realist - you appear to be one who lives in a fantasy land - that's ok by me. I am sure you believe there is a little man in the sky who will thump you on the head if you don't 'live right', too - that's also ok by me - believe whatever gets you through life.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

I can't see rape as sex. As for children there is a "natural" reason for changes at puberty. Animals is getting really far fetched. While these things happen to class them as a capability or desire of all men is not credible.

Many men are pigs because many women reward them for being so. I first came accross that notion in an Early Western Civ class taught by a 70 year old self described "battle ax" of a woman. I struck me as strange and I thought about it from time to time for twenty some years now. I must agree that males will do what it takes to attract the female. Human or otherwise that seems to be the natural law.

Please note my use of qualifiers. As many of you know I'm a transvestite so I won't pretend to be a "normal" man.

: )
lyra


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Lyra, being a transvestite doesn't make you any less 'male' - I am happy for you that you have the guts to do what makes your boat float!


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

I second that, Lyra. I've yet to hear a description of what it means to be "normal."

I also agree with Jean in that, if it is a proven fact, I would have to see the documentation on the studies before I could believe that all men are animals and do not have the capacity for discernment or control where sex is concerned.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Kay, have you been published? Please point to that publication, and any other there might be.

Are you scared to live with your stepson? From what has been said by you, these men will.... Do you find the need to guard your dog from attack?


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

OMG...you are so full of yourself. Grow up and how about YOU start living in the real world, instead of in a book.

I believe you are talking about the most base of men's physical urges. Most men are much much more socially developed than that. Perhaps on paper, or in history men have been capable of such things, but to plaster all men with the ability to rape if they don't get caught is absurd.
Absolutely absurd.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

All I can say is it's been more than a month now since I was first identified and in all that time I haven't raped anyone, diddled any children, or molested one single animal. Haven't felt a single "urge". Not even a little tiny one. Is there help for me?


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Live on, Jean - with my blessing.

LOL, Asolo!

To the rest of you - again, I say: LIVE ON!


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Kay, could it be that what you meant was that it's your *opinion* and not a *fact* (as in a published fact)?


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

What is even more scarey, if this is just her "opinion", she has grandsons... with her now.

How do you deal with at any moment the "base" urges take over?

Besides, a defintion from the dictionary, I would like to really see what was used as support for the paper. I too have been to college, and can get "A"'s, but it doesn't mean it was scientifically proven. Is there any tests to prove this? Name the author, publication, date.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

I will let you do your own research, just as I have done. Some people just handle facts better than others - I'm not mad at you - draw your own conclusions on every level - it's fine by me.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Kay, I don't think it's that we can HANDLE facts -- we just want to know that it IS factual and not opinion or, as you mentioned, someone's "own conclusions." If you have done the research, why not share it with us? I'm not mad either.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Sayhello, I will offer just one site for you to look at and draw any conclusion you choose. I will not debate this issue with this forum any further - it is what it is, like it or not.

If you choose to do research, and still draw the same conclusion about the issue, so be it - I have researched human sexuality (from the beginning to today) and the effects of society on sexuality, on a lot of levels, and my conclusions are based on that research - now, you may do the same.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sexuality and Morality


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

OK, certainly no one is required to debate here. But I do think it's a bit unfair to label someone as "factless" and "living in a fantasy land" without backing that up.

Without asking for debate, I would be interested in knowing your academic background. Is it in psychology?


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By the way Kay...

I think it worth mentioning that the author of the text you mentioned is an engineer in electronics, and even that credential seems a bit outdated (Pascal, Perl, Basic are from the dinosaur age). He also says, "I, like any thinking creature, have my prejudices, bigotries, and baseless beliefs. I already understand many of these and defend them no longer." I would certainly agree with him.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Yes, my 'academic background' is in Psychology and Sociology, and I worked in this dicipline for 35 years - now retired.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Good enough. I'm still surprised you would use an electronics engineer's text as a basis for factual psychological or sociological information, but to each his own, as the saying goes...


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Man is not brainless. Yes, sex is the most basic of natural instincts, but we aren't talking about men in a vacuum here. We're talking about men in real life. Men we know, pass on the street, ride in elevators with, sit next to on a bus. Strip a man of all his social training, his own morality and debase him as just a non thinking animal, and yes, I will agree, men will have sex with anything female. But, that's certainly NOT the world I live in, and I don't consider the world around me to be a fantasy. I feel sorry for anyone who feels that way about the men in the world. How scary for them!


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

The sexuality of the human race is innate, and exists in both the male and the female genders. Humans are also given the power of discernment -- the acuteness of judgment and understanding; therefore, we are different from animals.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Finally, two people who did not drink the koolaid!

Ir would be such misinformation that this is out there with unproven, unscientific, and unverifiable data, evidence, or documentation.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

(smile) I think it's interesting to examine perspectives, though, as well as documentation, because it is one more way in which we learn about ourselves as humans and how we are not only different from animals, but different from each other in how we think and communicate.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

Sorry to get on the soapbox here, but I can't let some of this stand as "fact." A lot is being left out of this debate. I do not think either sociology or biology has solved the "nature/nurture" debate. Not all animals rape to get sex. Many animals have complex mating rituals. There are many successful mating strategies, rape is only one. Nature is full of biological diversity, it's not one thing or the other. And I don't know where the child molesting, old woman raping and bestiality comes in, since that isn't procreation based. It is violence based and power based, which is related to procreation/survival. But violence and power is only ONE procreation strategy. There's seduction, sneakiness, hormonal cues, and some animals just have sex all the time. Others aren't in the mood at all for most of their lives. And as far as bestiality, I dunno. Dogs sometimes try to hump cats, but sometimes, even when the opportunity is there, they just don't. Not in the mood I guess. And men aren't the only beasts. As for the hard wired nurturing mommies, if she doesn't want the baby, a woman can kill it very easily, and some do. Even primate societies couldn't survive with the level of violence your estimation of "natural" behavior would engender. The brakes aren't just goody goody, they ensure survival of the species. How can a human population survive without consequences, consequences come from your fellow humans whom you need to survive. Higher primates have many types of social rituals, not all of them violent. It's a balancing act. Primate observers have observed the most horrific violence in those societies, and yet it does not happen all the time, why? Because in a species that needs to live together as a group to survive, there are ALWAYS consequences of some sort. Even primates do not do violent things to their friends, because they do not want to get away with it, the relationship meets other needs they have besides their sexual urges. Yes sex is a powerful urge, but it is not the only urge. Survival doesn't just depend on sex--you have to survive and your offspring have to survive for your species genepool to continue.

How could we survive if every person was trying to rape and pillage every other person? That's illogical. Human life without consequences is an oxymoron. Imagining a "natural" life for humans where there are no consequences has never existed and never will. It is actually unnatural. Human existence is social, and social behaior is built on consequnces. What those consequences are is a varied as the human genepool. Violence can be counter productive to survival in the long run, which is why violent events in nature are only part of the picture. Animals are violent, but not all the time. You can rape and pillage some people some of the time, but you can't rape and pillage all the people all the time indefinately.

And I know enough decent men and women to know that some are just decent to the core, hardwired that way. Whether it is in their genes or what is still somewhat of a mystery and will keep the biologist and psychologists up to their ears in grant money for many years to come.

Sorry, but there is just as much evidence to suggest that our hardwiring also includes compassion, a very valuable survival mechanism, in addition to violence. Humans are social animals. As long as we have societies, there will be a need for compassion. It exists in primates right along with the violence. They have the whole spectrum available to them, and so do we. Luckily our brains give us lots of survival tactics, thousands more than even the smartest primate. The biggest problem with violence is if you live by the sword, you die by the sword, while the sweet quiet guy lurking in the corner canoodles your conquest and passes on his genes to the future. Consequnces or not, he doesn't rape because he doesn't have to.


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RE: Women's opinion of men.

"Sorry, but there is just as much evidence to suggest that our hardwiring also includes compassion"

Amen!


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