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dave_co

Adults estranged from parents

dave_co
15 years ago

Hello All,

We maxed out another forum, so I'm starting another one.

Peace,

Dave

Comments (117)

  • josi
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Sage!

    Oh, funny how alike they are. Yeah, I would get international phone calls that lasted about 90 minutes, and I would barely talk. The whole time she was either talking about herself or gossiping about other people.

    I think it's very interesting how things can get turned around depending on the way you look at them. I think our parents have some sort of inferiority complex as a result of the neglect they themselves suffered. They can't feel better about themselves because they are unforgiving towards their own failures, therefore they are unforgiving towards us as well. But to live like that, feeling like a failure all the time? It must be awful, so their strategy is to project all their shortcomings on us, then feel like a better person by comparison.

    I am actually having a hard time explaining this. Maybe an example will work better: My mom and I have roughly the same height and body type. She has many siblings, and all the women in her family become diabetic after years of living a sedentary life and eating pints of ice cream every night. Well, I am very active and still fit in the same clothes I bought ten years ago. She is very overweight, despite countless diets, multiple liposuctions, tummy tuck, lymphatic treatments, and whatever else they do in Brazil. She has extremely high blood pressure and diabetes. When I was training for a marathon and running 40 miles a week, she would say that it doesn't matter what I do, I will end up like her. "You just wait, when you're 60, you'll be taking 10 prescription pills every day." Or as I grew into a good-looking woman, her strategy for the first few years was to always point out how much we looked alike. But as she started to age, it seems she actually resented all the attention I got, so she would show up at family events with my conservative in-laws dressed like a professional: sheer black blouse with her bra exposed, skin-tight pants, knee-high boots, blue contacts, hair extensions. It was shocking. Like she refused to not be the center of attention. When she would visit me, within 10 minutes she'd be telling me how I was a "little chubby," even though she looks like a barrel. Or if I was skinny enough, I was "starting to show some wrinkles, and maybe it's time to have surgery." Jeez, thanks.

    She has two options: Admit that she was wrong, be happy that I am not following in her footsteps, and feel regret about all the things that could have turned out differently in her life, or continue on lying to herself, believing that she didn't have any control over the bad things that happened to her and playing the victim.

    I think they are very afraid of admitting their own mistakes, especially as they get older and older, because then it becomes an entire lifetime wasted as opposed to an isolated mistake. They might tell themselves and everybody around them that they are confident and emotionally healthy people, but I think deep down their self-esteem is very, very low. And the only way to make themselves feel better is to show off what they think will impress other people: "Look my wonderful scientist son! Who cares he's an alcoholic." But she can't show off a good relationship with you, so her only way out is to play the martyr: "Oh, we were great parents. Just look at our son! Yet our daughter has no appreciation for us." They get more sympathy if they play the brave martyrs who raised a terrible child than to show an unhappy daughter that makes them look suspiciously guilty.

    I think that they are trapped in this ridiculous bubble of denial, and I actually feel sorry for them. I think that is how I can rationalize a way to sometimes forgive my parents (not always!) I keep thinking of how unprepared and unsophisticated they were. Then my mother went through a month of therapy when I was 10, and to this day she proclaims that her head is very well-resolved and she doesn't need any more therapy (her own words). Amazing!

    All righty. Time to go to sleep and dream sweet dreams that do not involve our crazy parents!

    Josi

  • dave_co
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello All,

    I feel like I've been getting behind in my postings here.

    Josi, I'm glad you've started writing more here. I hope you find in helpful. I know I have. It's really helped the last several months as I've been working though what it means to be completely estranged from my parents and brother.

    You mention the dread of the visits. I know it well. Usually a month before I would see them, I would stop sleeping well, and become more irritable and depressed. It would take several weeks after a visit to feel normal again. I would limit my visits to once a year. I kept thinking I could handle this. I realize now I should have trusted my feelings and stayed away. Live and learn.

    You say, "So there you go. She can do no wrong. Everything that goes wrong is somebody else's fault." That's my parents exactly. They have done nothing wrong. Ever! My father once wrote to me that he didn't think his drinking caused any problems for our family. I guess he forgot about all the screaming, drunken arguments with my mother, all the times he didn't come home in the evening, or how he gambled away all his money. It's just too much. Neither one of them will ever acknowledge that they are anything less than saints. They will tell outright lies to maintain their claim to saintliness.

    You say, "I think they are very afraid of admitting their own mistakes, especially as they get older and older, because then it becomes an entire lifetime wasted as opposed to an isolated mistake." I think this is my parents dilemma. It's easier for the them to think I'm mentally ill, or an elder abuser, for telling them how unhappy I am around them, then it is for them to think perhaps they did something wrong. So they reject me, their own son, rather than face the truth about themselves. These are people I never need to see or hear of again. They have always been toxic to me, and will always be toxic to me. I'm glad I finally figured this out. Whew!!

    Hi Sage, I'll be interested to hear more about what you think of the "Narcissistic Family" book. It hit home for me too! I particularly like that it is focused not just on describing the characteristics of these families, but also on how to heal ourselves, if we grew up like this. So far, I've found it very insightful and helpful.

    I'm glad you got through Mother's Day without too much upset, and ended up having a good day. Good for you!!

    I'm going mountain biking this weekend with some friends tomorrow and won't be back until Monday. No laptop this trip, so I'll be off-line. I hope you all have great weekend. Thanks for being there!

    Peace,

    Dave

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  • flowergardenmuse
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello Everyone,

    Again, what Josi said: "My childhood wasn't horrible, and my parents tend to leave very positive impressions on other people, which makes it very hard for anyone to understand my decision." They refer to the absence of the very obvious forms of severe abuse including alcoholism, physical abuse, severe neglect - but in particular alcoholism - yet how some people still have the similar traits of an 'Adult Childrn Of Alcoholics'.

    Sage says, "They refer to the abuse as very 'covert' in nature which I think is a good term for it." Covert is a term used in a lot of the books that I've read, one's dealing with manipulation. Manipulative behavior is another hallmark characterisitc of the self-absorbed. They tend to use people interpersonally and it can be very covert.

    Josi said: "My childhood wasn't horrible, and my parents tend to leave very positive impressions on other people, which makes it very hard for anyone to understand my decision." I see this more with my in-laws than I do with my own parents. I don't know how positive of an impression they give to others or what other people's view of them were. I don't recollect either of my parents being really social, like social butterflys. They did go to church and were involved in work, etc., and gave to political organizations. I recall my father was invovled in either the Masons or Shriners and Giddons. I don't recollect my mothers interests. When they were at home they both seemed more inclined towards introversion (I don't see being introverted as a bad thing). I see how my in-laws presented themselves as much more superficial, always trying to manipulate people's impressions of them. It sickened me, given what I know about the family as people.

    Sage says, "My mother always brushes off my emotions and when I bring up the subject of the past." My mother does the same. She even said that we were not treated that bad! She continues to deny the abusive behaviors.

    Sage says, "She insinuates that I am just not appreciative of what I did have. That I was spoiled, that it was not all that bad for me growing up..." I can relate to this too. She always turns things around on me and puts it all back on me. It always comes out that I'm ungrateful. She always turns it around to pouring her resentment on me for what a difficult child I was and how I was so terrible to deal with.

    Sage says, "All the while never once admitting any of their mistakes or shortcomings in relation to how I was treated. Never, not once, has she even admitted anything at all was not good. Just points the finger at me immediately, says she did the best she could, and blames me for causing trouble by bringing up the past, that I was not appreciative. Once again, it is all about their needs being met." Ditto for my mother. She does this repeatedly and I know that it will continue and not stop. She will never admitt to any mistakes.

    Sage says, "And to this day, they do not even want to hear what I have to say. That is because it has nothing to do with me. My needs are STILL not being met by them; my needs as an adult to be acknowledged by my parents that is. This 'need' will never be met by them." I can relate to this as well. I wish that were not so. My father died, so there was no resolution with him. He denied what he did up until the end, but by them my interactions with him were infrequent. I did have to cope with loss and grief when he died. I had a dream about being at his gravesite alone and talking to him. I had written him a letter. I was alone. I think this was about my needing to grieve alone, rather than have others always trying to get their needs met with me in their interactions. I went with my mother to my father's place of birth and helped her to pick out caskets and met with some of the relatives. I was taking care of her again. I had delayed grief, because I could only really feel it until I returned home and even then I didn't really have anyone to talk it over with, anyone ot listen to help me process my grief.

    Some of my mother's letters and cards are sitting in a pile (folder) unanswered and unopened. The feelings I get when I look at them is that I don't want to deal with it right now. I'm tired of dealing with it, along with everything else.

    Josi, thanks for sharing here. It's good to get more perspectives. It helps to know one isn't alone with their situation.

    Well that's all for now. I have work to get too.

    Flower

  • sage121
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello everyone,

    Hi Josi, Yes, they are all alot alike in many ways. Before I found this forum, I never would have believed other people were in a similar situation as I was. It still surprises me, I was alone with this for so long. It has helped me to share my story, and read others stories. It helps me to not turn blame on myself as I often used to. It is very clear to me now that it was not 'me'. Not my fault when I was a child, and further problems that developed were also not my fault as an adult.

    The gossiping seems to be a common theme too. I wonder...Dave, did your parents gossip alot too? Mine sure did. And obsessively talking and gushing about my cousins (whom they hardly knew, and rarely saw), I always got the sense they just wished I were like them. That could be my own insecurity talking, not sure. They talk about them like they are involved in their everyday lives, but they hardly knew them. They lived their own 'fantasy' I suppose, of how their daughter was supposed to be like in an ideal world of their own creation. Too bad, because I was a bright, creative, and pretty good little kid. I was sad....but not mentally ill, or a trouble maker, or a burden. That I know for sure.

    Josi, I agree about their unforgiving attitude. My mother holds on to little tiny events, things I have said (even if I have already apologized for them), some of which she twists to suit her own needs, and used to throw them at me every now and then. Very childish. Why can't she just say: "You said 'this' to me and it hurt my feelings." But no, that has never happened. Which is why, when I approached the situation in that sort of heart felt way, it did not solve anything. She was totally non-responsive.

    Thanks for sharing that story about your mom Josi, I know exactly what you mean. It sounds like she is jealous of you as well. That is just plain ignorant to force her negative attitude on you by saying you'll end up like her. She is the way she is because she thought that way her whole life, and so it happened. She didn't live up to her own expectations for herself, and was bitter about that. Of course she 'should' have been happy you were not following in her footsteps!! She is bitter, negative and narrow minded. Just like my Mom is. Sounds very over the top Narcissistic. My mother was always very obsessed with how others looked (not herself though). She used to gush about how great my brother looked all the time. I will never ever forget the time my brother was living with me, she came for a visit, and my brother and I both met her at the door. She just gushed at how great HE looked....and well, I just got a 'hi'. And, if I must say so myself, I looked pretty darn good! lol Thinking about it now makes me laugh, but I can see how as a young kid it made me feel very insecure.

    Josi, I agree, their self-esteem must be very low to live their lives somewhat outside of themselves. And as my parents do, through my ultra-magnificent/loser brother. Thanks for validating my feelings about my brother. Josi said: "Oh, we were great parents. Just look at our son! Yet our daughter has no appreciation for us." That is exactly what they do. My brother is an arrogant asss. Not one person who met him while he stayed with us thought anything different. And not only my close friends. It included neighbours, co-workers, and my in-laws. Funny how it seems the whole world can see what a loser he is except my parents. Sadly, they made him that way. Right now, I am just glad I am not like him. I sleep well at night, and could never live as he does.

    Dave said: "My father once wrote to me that he didn't think his drinking caused any problems for our family. I guess he forgot about all the screaming, drunken arguments with my mother, all the times he didn't come home in the evening, or how he gambled away all his money. It's just too much." He did cause problems, deep down he must know that. Oh, how I can relate. My father never said anything at all to me, but the way he joked about his drinking after he quit, was just a slap in the face. My father also blew alot of money. I believe at one point we did go bankrupt(?) During his drinking years he bought himself all kinds of 'toys' like Ski-Doos, went on trips to Vegas, and well, I can only imagine the amount of money on liquor. I will never forget the times the police phoned our house, I would run to the phone thinking it was my dad....but it was the police, and they phoned to tell us that dad was in jail. I remember the police officer's voice on the phone, I could tell something was wrong by the tone of his voice when he asked for my mother. I wonder what he was thinking when a little kid answered the phone?! How revolting, considering my father used to be a cop himself. Complete and utter denial isn't it? Pathetic. It disgusts me now. They had choices back then, they were adults. Just as we do, as adults, right now.

    Dave said: "These are people I never need to see or hear of again. They have always been toxic to me, and will always be toxic to me. I'm glad I finally figured this out. Whew!!" Exactly. That is how I feel. You know, I think there was a 'window' of time when I think I could have worked on building a relationship with my parents if they were willing. But that time has passed a long time ago, and nothing but resentment has built since then. I am done, and I do not feel bad about the decision I made at all.

    Dave, I can't thank you enough for recommending the "Narcissistic Family" book. I cannot even begin to explain how deeply this hit home for me. I am on the last chapter. I could relate closely to each and every chapter. It goes along perfectly with the new therapist I have started seeing. She too is not just offering support, or getting too much into the explanation of the psychology of the 'why this happened' - she is very action oriented, and that IS what I need right now. Forcing me to look at what I am doing to keep myself from getting better. I don't want to complain, and go over and over what happened anymore. I want to improve my life now, realize behaviours and where they come from, and change them in me. Take responsibility for myself, my life, and take myself out of the 'victim' role. They made reference to some types of therapy just offering support and no action - and I agree that just re-inforces harmful behaviours. I can see this as being very true, and something to watch out for. Whew, I actually have found the book overwhelming, but at the same time refreshing! Going to let it absorb and review some chapters and will post more on that subject another day. Would like to discuss it with you. I am doing some of the exercises.

    Dave, I hope you had a great bike trip! We had wonderful weather Sat and Sun, but today there is about an inch of snow on the ground!!!! Hope you didn't get any part of this weather system where you are at! :)

    Flower, My parents tended to gravitate towards a couple of those types of organizations as well, Masons, Lions club etc. But I too cannot pinpoint any interests they had, or hobbies. They always seemed pre-occupied with what other people were doing. Now that they are older, they still seem to be that way. No friends, no hobbies, no interests. Just TV. Sad in a way. And sometimes I do feel a little sorry for them, although not for long. They never felt sorry for the little girl who cried and cried and cried and felt so horribly alone, and left out of the family unit. Sitting on the sidelines as they doted over my brother. Not sure how I will ever get over that - but I will. sigh...

    Flower, Thanks for relating to so much of what I say. I wish we did not have this in common!! I have gone over my 'stories' countless times in my head, and what is seeming to be countless times here on this forum too. I am really focusing on helping myself now, healing. It is time and I deserve it! We all deserve that! :) :)

    I hope everyone had a good weekend! Thanks so much for being here, you are all helping me to (finally) work through this.

    Sage

  • flowergardenmuse
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello Everyone,

    Sage says, "Before I found this forum, I never would have believed other people were in a similar situation as I was. It still surprises me, I was alone with this for so long." I always thought there were people out there that had similar issues and felt the same. Finding people who were/are willing to discuss those feelings and issues was another matter. And yes, I felt very alone in dealing with these issues too, because I had a hard time finding anyone who would listen or allow me to talk about my feelings. I believe most people are taught to suppress those emotions and to not discuss them, otherwise everyone here would have others to turn too, instead of coming here for support. The emotional support we have all needed around this issue, we didn't find at all or to the degree that we needed and have found here. It also helps to find people who have similar experiences and, even more important, who are willing to discuss them. A good many people probably have similar issues, they just haven't gotten to the point where they feel a need or are willing to discuss them.

    Also we've all discussed the negative reactions and judgements that we've experienced from others around this issue too. That seems a common theme here, so in the face of such negative responses why would we feel emotionally safe to explore the issues to the degree that we've been able to here. Trust me, I would like to be able to talk about my feelings as I do here with others, but I just haven't found people who can offer understanding or compassion. I think most are uncomfortable and it's a taboo subject. I felt silenced and shut down every time I tried. Instead I was given a lot of unhelpful advice, cliches and simple solutions to complex problems, which I found emotionally stifling.

    Josi says, "It's been very helpful to know I'm not the only one. Thank you all for sharing. I'm an only child, and it's certainly hard to talk about it without being judged." I agree. I've found a lot of judgement around the issue.

    Josi said, "I hate having to explain myself, so most of the time I just lie about it, which makes me feel horrible. I don't like to lie. But it's easier than dealing with the horrified reaction: "How could you do that to your parents!?" I agree. It doesn't feel good to have to explain oneself--to defend your position. If someone responded with less judgement and more understanding instead, then it would open up the issue for discussion. Disagreeing with someone's viewpoint is a different issue than judging someone's feelings. I've been on the receiving end of a lot of judgement about my feelings and actions.

    I honestly believe that there are many people out there who have similar issues. They just don't want to deal with them and maybe find themselves in a similar dilemma of having others judge them, which of course would stifle the honest expression of their emotions. A lot of people would not bother with therapy either as they'll take the path of least resistance. People are just not comfortable talking about their emotions, except perhaps the happy ones. We live in a culture which encourages that thou should only have happy thoughts and only express happy thoughts and if one feels conflicted or anything that doesn't resemble happy then they'd better keep quiet about it. At the same time people chatter on endlessly about material possessions, money and sexuality in the most banal and idiotic way. All these bottled up repressed emotions come out in a host of destructive ways towards others and of course are then denied.

    I could be here all day, even day after day, relating stories about the sheer numbers of people who have come to me with their personal problems, dumping and unloading on me with very private details of their unhappiness. I've expressed to all of them to seek therapy or counseling. And most of them get angry at this suggestion, or will not seek the help that they so desperately need. The list of excuse-making is endless, but it doesn't stop them from trying to unload about their unhappiness and anger. The anger turns to other forms. I've even had some people tell me that they don't need a therapist because they have me. One would think suggesting counseling or therapy to someone would make them stop and think about what they are doing and revealing, but it doesn't stop them. They then start to deny their behaviors. I've also heard a lot of people express how it is easier for them to talk about their very personal stories to strangers than what it is to talk to their friends and families. Why is that? So yes, I think that there are a lot of people out there with family problems. The only difference I see is that we are all willing to discuss them here, and we have all sought counseling and help with our issues. We've taken a harder road and we are all trying to do something about it. That is why I don't dismiss our discussions here as mere complaints.

    Well, that is all for now. Sorry for all the typos and mistakes on the previous post. Hope you all had a nice weekend.

    Flower

  • sage121
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Flower said: "I could be here all day, even day after day, relating stories about the sheer numbers of people who have come to me with their personal problems, dumping and unloading on me with very private details of their unhappiness. I've expressed to all of them to seek therapy or counseling. And most of them get angry at this suggestion, or will not seek the help that they so desperately need. The list of excuse-making is endless, but it doesn't stop them from trying to unload about their unhappiness and anger. The anger turns to other forms. I've even had some people tell me that they don't need a therapist because they have me. One would think suggesting counseling or therapy to someone would make them stop and think about what they are doing and revealing, but it doesn't stop them. They then start to deny their behaviors."

    Flower, While you may want to try to help these people, you can't. You can't change how people act or change what they think. You are NOT a therapist, and maybe just stating that to them would help. The truth is that it is up to you whether you expose yourself to these people, or not. It is your choice, you are not obligated to try to solve anyone's problems. If this is creating anxiety for you, you need to change what you are doing, stop putting yourself in that situation.

    Sage

  • dave_co
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi All,

    I had a really nice weekend mountain biking with some friends. I've been pretty intense lately trying to sort though issues regarding my parents. It felt really good to take a break and just have some fun, and not think about much of anything. I don't discuss my personal issues with my mountain biking friends, and I think I prefer it this way. I don't really want to think about and discuss my parents all the time.

    Hi Sage, yes my mother did gossip a lot. And my dad bragged a lot about just about everything, no matter how insignificant. He would brag about how great he was at running a bingo game for the Knights of Columbus. Jeez! And yet he seemed to have very little interest in my job at the time which involved managing a test equipment business with a couple 100 employees all around the world. Do you get the impression he's a little self-absorbed???

    Anyway, back to my mom's gossip. She had a couple of themes. One would be to talk to me about all the wonderful things my cousins were doing, but seemed to have no interest in my accomplishments. Another one would be how jealous her sister was of her. My mom did everything better, according to her, and her sister was a petty, jealous, incompetent person.

    She was also had a very annoying habit around my wife's parents. My wife is an only child, so our two children are their only grandchildren. I have one brother with two children, so my parents have 4 grandchildren. On the rare occasion my parents have been around my wife's parents, all my parents can do is talk about how wonderful my brothers children are. How stupid is this. They could enjoy discussing the grandchildren they have in common, but my parents have to brag about my brother's children. Give me a break!! My in-laws notice this and have commented to my wife how annoying this is. I don't blame them one bit.

    I'm glad you like the "Narcissistic Family" book. I really like the emphasis with getting on with our life, rather than just mulling over the past. While we need to understand the past to move forward, there is a risk of getting stuck in the past. I want to understand the past, deal with it, and move on. I like the exercises dealing with seeing ourselves as children in a very positive light. As part of this I put a picture of myself of when I was 12 years old on my desk so I can see it often.

    Flower says, "I could be here all day, even day after day, relating stories about the sheer numbers of people who have come to me with their personal problems, dumping and unloading on me with very private details of their unhappiness." You seem to have an innate ability to help people. Others seem to sense this ability and seek your help. Have you ever considered becoming a therapist? It sounds like you have a gift that benefits others. You could help others, and make a living doing it. Just a thought.

    I continue to sort through feelings of anxiety, fear, anger, and unworthiness as they pop up in my life. It's clear how they all developed in relationship to my parents. I feel like I'm making progress mourning the relationship I never had with my parents. I also feel like I'm making progress replacing these negative thought patterns with healthier thoughts. Of course it goes in cycles, but the overall trend is upward.

    That's all for now. Take care of yourselves. Thanks for being there!

    Peace,

    Dave

  • sage121
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Dave! Glad you had a good trip, and it gave you some time to diffuse all you have been dealing with lately! I know what you mean, you said: "..I don't discuss my personal issues with my mountain biking friends, and I think I prefer it this way. I don't really want to think about and discuss my parents all the time." Important to do this. I have mentioned this to a couple friends...but I don't bring it up very often. I am making an effort to think about them less. Therapy is helping me with that.

    Interesting your mother was a 'bragger' too. So weird. My dad was an ego-maniac in alot of ways too (perhaps comes with their occupations too). My mom did the same about my cousins. I would bring up anything, any subject, and she would somehow have a story about a cousin who did this and that - only a thousand times better. And of course, as you know, my brother was also a main topic of gossip. No matter what I accomplished in my own career, which was quite alot, they didn't want to hear it. They would hear a little....then jump to the subject of what someone else did. A favorite cousin of theirs was one that worked for NASA (ya, a Rocket Scientist...lol Geesh). A cousin they, or I, never really knew. They talked about her ALOT. It was always something distant and meaningless they focussed on, never in the here and now, or what was right in front of them, or someone 'close' to them (like me). Interesting about how your mother seemed to feel so threatened by her sister. And by everyone. My mom was quick to judge and point fingers like that too.

    The rare occassions that my in-laws met my parents, it was the same sort of scenario. My in-laws also noticed how focussed on my brother that my parents were. After all, it is so so obvious! My MIL mentioned this to me, and it hurt, but at the same time I knew it was truth, I had known it for years and years.

    I agree about the "Narcissistic Family" book. I have just done the 'photo' exercise too. I felt very afraid actually going through with it. But it is comforting. I see myself as I was then. Innocent. I have thought about it before, but actually looking at the picture somehow reinforces it. What I like about the book too is the reference to the patterns we develop as adults as a result of our growing up with Narcissists. Deeply ingrained habits and behaviours we learned from our 'mentors', our parents. And most importantly, to recognize them, and then change them. It is our responsibility, nobody elses. We don't have to change, but we can if we want to. I want to.

    Flower, Maybe Dave is right - consider becoming a therapist! Good point. That way you would learn more about how to actually help people effectively, to create the patient/therapist boundary, and also get paid for your time, a bonus! :) I think a natural tendency to want to listen to other people's problems is necessary for anyone who considers entering the field.

    Take care everyone,
    Sage

  • flowergardenmuse
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello Everyone,

    Dave, says, "I've been pretty intense lately trying to sort though issues regarding my parents. It felt really good to take a break and just have some fun, and not think about much of anything." I'm glad you enjoyed yourself. We all need time to have fun and not think about issues or problems. I try to find balance, which is not always easy to do.

    Dave says, "I don't discuss my personal issues with my mountain biking friends, and I think I prefer it this way. I don't really want to think about and discuss my parents all the time." Were you responding to something I posted? I would agree that some people wouldn't be appropriate to talk to about your personal issues. I don't want to think about and discuss my parents all the time either. That would border on obsessive anyway and I doubt it would be possible, even if I desired it, which I don't.

    Do either one of you wish that you had friends that you could talk to and openly discuss these issues with outside of this forum? I did desire that and actively sought those relationships, but I didn't find it. What I did find is that when I was open about my feelings and would try to bring up an issue, the other person would respond immediately with their own unresolved issues and then they would dominate the interaction with their issues and it became all about them. I would also find the other extreme of people very closed down emotionally who offered judgements, cliches or simple solutions to complex problems. If you didn't find this forum would you both still be seeking other people to talk to about these issues?

    My parent's self-absorption was also a problem for me as well as my sister's excessive love of self. I encountered this character deficiency quite a bit in other people that I've come in contact with.

    Regarding empathy and sensitivity: I had this girlfriend who I befriended in the 6th grade. To make a long story short she was the one that tried to involve me in prostitution and other criminal activity. We had an on again off again relationship up until the very end of high school. By then, I'd re-evaluated the relationship and distanced myself from her because she was toxic for me. My parents, as usual were too self-absorbed to know what was going on with me, and I wouldn't have trusted their reactions anyway. They always blamed me for everything.

    Years later, almost 5 years or so with no contact, she sent a letter to me in care of my mother. My mother sent it on to me. Curiosity got the better of me and I read the letter and it stirred a lot of unhappy memories of my experiences with her. During the same time frame 2 other girls who I'd known and parted company with also contacted me by mail. It was very weird to me as I'd moved on in my life and had no desire to see these people as I'd re-evaluated the relationships and found them wanting. I didn't feel close to them, given the circumstances. One woman was apologetic for something she said that I no longer recalled. I didn't bother to write her back as I'd decided that the relationship was not healthy for me. I don't recall what I wrote to the other person--I think I did respond to her and she wrote me a letter and got defensive and for whatever reason couldn't hear my feelings. The other woman (the one who had tried to involve me in prostitution) I waited almost a year to write her back. She responded and told me that it was so long before I wrote her back that she didn't feel that she was going to hear from me. Her letter was also apologetic in tone--it was filled with a type of regret, however she did not take responsibility, which is very different. She made comments that we had gone separate ways, etc., which was not how I felt. She wrote that "we had once been so close," and then she stated that I always had an "amazing sensitivity," and that she hoped I still had that. (That really stood out and I found it curious.) She also said that she found most people lacking (sensitivity). Sensitivity for her she stated was like an on/off light switch. Saved energy when it was off. "Amazing sensitivity," is what she wrote and I find that quite an observation to have of someone as an evolving 6th grader! Funny how she found others' lacking and hoped that I still had that sensitivity. People become so angry with me when I don't give them what they think I should--my time and energy, my sensitivity. Just because you may sense something about another person doesn't give you the right to demand it or to impose your expectations of what you think you deserve from others, especially if you don't offer that yourself.

    I wrote her back once, because I think I felt obligated. When I recall the feeling of obligation, I know that was imposed on me by others--their responses confused me. I felt bad for having what I feel now would be normal reactions to receiving that kind of letter out-of-the-blue and all the memories it brought up for me. What I recall the most was feeling overwhelmed by a flood of memories that I didn't want and with no one to help me sort it all out. Once again, people offered cliches and focused on "forgive and forget", never really thinking about or responding to the here and now of what I was feeling and telling them in the moment. Their focus was on her and what she may have been feeling or why she may have written it, not relating at all to how I may have felt. This reaction feels very common to me. People seem so obtuse about what motivates them and their own emotional state.

    Dave, I agree that people sense something--sensitivity, empathy and they seek me out. I do not seek them out. I desire mutualism, reciprocity and respect in relationships, which hasn't been easy to find given that so many people seem to border on excess or extremes. I've brought this up to my therapist and will bring it up again--it's very difficult being in situations where you know too much, because of being attuned to the subtle nuances of emotions.

    My husband accompanied me to a marriage counselor a few times (he was unwilling to work on himself or committ himself to the process). Some of the discussions were related to his family and people that he associated with. The therapist told him that I picked up on everything, while he picked up on NOTHING! He told him that he put up with s**t from people. Then he asked my husband or was trying to get him to recognize how I help him to stand up for himself. The therapist also asked him why he let me take the heat for everything. He also said that my husband walked a mile to avoid any kind of conflict. What he said to me was that I had enough feeling about these situations for the two of us. He confronted my husband directly and asked him what he did with his anger. Later to me he expressed his frustration with my husband, stating that he had layers of insulation around him. I forgot about some of this because I've been so overwhelmed with everything else--just too much stuff coming at me from all directions. This male therapist made some comments to me in a few sessions that I had alone with him, and they were inappropriate, so I stopped seeing him. I found another therapist, who wound up going crazy (long story)--she was picked up and institutionalized. She was educated, degreed and licensed, etc. and also on my insurance list of providers. I don't put myself in these situations. Yes, I did make a choice to see these therapists, so yes, that is a choice, but I had no way of knowing the outcome. I took myself out of these situations, but I do recognize what it did--there were consequences for me.

    Dave thank you for what you said here and for seeing the positive, "You seem to have an innate ability to help people. Others seem to sense this ability and seek your help....It sounds like you have a gift that benefits others." It doesn't feel like a gift at times, because I need help and this is something that seems out of balance for me. I think maybe it's a double-edged sword. I've had trouble finding balance. I do assert myself, I do draw boundaries again and again.

    Well that's enough for now.

    Take care everyone,

    Flower

  • sage121
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Flower said: "Do either one of you wish that you had friends that you could talk to and openly discuss these issues with outside of this forum? I did desire that and actively sought those relationships, but I didn't find it. What I did find is that when I was open about my feelings and would try to bring up an issue, the other person would respond immediately with their own unresolved issues and then they would dominate the interaction with their issues and it became all about them. I would also find the other extreme of people very closed down emotionally who offered judgements, cliches or simple solutions to complex problems. If you didn't find this forum would you both still be seeking other people to talk to about these issues?"

    I do talk about these issues with people I know outside this forum. I have always talked to my husband about this issue, in detail, and he has been very supportive. I am slowly opening up more to a couple close friends as well. Feels good to do this, and just speak the truth. I am glad to have connected with people who are in the same situation as me right here in this forum though. It has made a big difference for me. Outside of this forum, I do not know anyone who is completely estranged from their parents. It helps to connect to those in a situation that is very close to your own, because they can relate. And most importantly, not just share stories, but also to share ideas to help eachother out. That is my main purpose for connecting with people online. I have felt less alone with this struggle since I have done that. I can't say I am really 'looking' for any other people to talk to about this right now. I have my husband, friends, this forum and therapy. Enough for right now, I am finding the answers I need to more forward. I don't feel so stuck anymore.

    Sage

  • flowergardenmuse
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello Everyone,

    Hi Sage. I took some of the last writings here to my therapist the other day. You wrote something that I reacted too in response to what I wrote. I knew my reaction was something important for me that I needed to discuss with her. I found your response confusing and also felt very misunderstood and many of those familiar feelings came up for me. Feeling misunderstood is very different from respectful disagreement, rather than devaluing a person because you may disagree. I've had a lot of people in my life try to devalue me as a person, then deny that they are doing so. I've had a lot of people, starting with my family, blame me for everything and twist my words, yet take no responsibility themselves.

    Words are very powerful and certain words take on a negative connotation, because of how they were used, whether someone intended to do this or not. I know that I react to the use of particular word choices and am also self-aware enough to know what it means to me. I needed to explore it further and I have previously with her to some extent. The problem for me is that I've just had so much that I'm going through that I cannot focus on one thing, so I take incremental steps, because I don't feel that I have much of a choice with so much coming at me from all directions. It's difficult given the set of circumstances that I'm dealing with to feel that I've made progress and that at times can really frustrate me. I recognize some of my limitations and try not to beat myself up about it, as that would not be healthy for me. At the same time I don't want to burden myself with feelings that I'm not moving forward quickly enough and then beat myself up for it and feel deficient about it. I don't need that at all.

    I felt yesterday's talk with her was very productive. There are some days where she just listens, because that it what I need. And there are other sessions when we discuss issues more in depth. I have setbacks due to my health, physical pain, etc.

    I'm still processing what she said and she stated it in such a way that made sense and didn't feel wounding. I read her the part where you both responded to me about being a therapist. She doesn't think that would be a good idea--there's been too many people in my life making presumptions about me and then trying to impose on me to be this for them. It creates an internal conflict for me which has a lot to do with the role I fulfilled in my family and this goes very deep. She did state that how I feel and what is going on for me would not be unusual for being placed in a position where people constantly invalidated me, and then twisted everything I said and turned it all back on me.

    Sage, it's good that you are finding the answers you need to move forward and don't feel stuck. Unlike you and Dave, my spouse is not emotionally supportive in a way that I need around many of these issues. I've stated before that he is part of the problem. I also don't have the level of support that either one of you have around this issue with your inlaws. Outside of this forum I have one friend who I've opened up with and another who I've opened up with a little and I agree that it feels good to speak of my truth. I think you've both shared more stories, and I've related to some of them. I sometimes start to feel too overwhelmed just even thinking about my mother and sisters and all the issues there, let alone to write more fully about it. On the one hand, it probably would be good for me to write about more in depth, but on the other hand it's so overwhelming--dealing with her mental illness and being placed in that position. Once I've thought about what she said more, I will post it here.

    Anyway, thank you for being here and listening.

    Flower

  • dave_co
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi All,

    Sage says, "I have just done the 'photo' exercise too. I felt very afraid actually going through with it. But it is comforting. I see myself as I was then. Innocent. I have thought about it before, but actually looking at the picture somehow reinforces it." I've done things like this before too. But this time I've began to see myself as a child differently. In the past I would think of myself as a child as being hurt, damaged and weak. Now I've been able to see how resourceful and heroic I was in dealing with adults, my parents, who mistreated me and who had almost complete control over me. I didn't let them crush me. I coped. I protected myself. I eventually got away from them. I can now see myself as a child I would have been proud to have, but as one my parents chose not to appreciate through NO FAULT of my own. This has been helpful.

    "What I like about the book too is the reference to the patterns we develop as adults as a result of our growing up with Narcissists. Deeply ingrained habits and behaviours we learned from our 'mentors', our parents. And most importantly, to recognize them, and then change them. It is our responsibility, nobody else's. We don't have to change, but we can if we want to. I want to." Good summary! It is hard for me to face some of these behaviors in myself, but if I really want to be free from my parents, I must do this. And I want to do this too!!

    Flower says, "Dave says, "I don't discuss my personal issues with my mountain biking friends, and I think I prefer it this way. I don't really want to think about and discuss my parents all the time." Were you responding to something I posted?" Not that I know of. When I wrote this I was reflecting on the weekend I had just spent with 4 other guys mountain biking, and hanging out in the little town of Fruita CO. I realized I hadn't said anything about my parents for the 3 days I did this. I don't think I would have enjoyed myself as much, if I had been talking about all the issues I've had with my parent during the weekend. I appreciate having some friends I can just have fun with and not always be deep and introspective.

    Here's another thought on this topic from my distant past. Thirty-some years ago I had an ill-conceived marriage that ended in divorce. As I was going through the divorce, I had some friends recommend I take a 12 week "Going Through Divorce" seminar. It was like a structured group therapy. I found it very helpful. After the seminar, all the people from the seminar kept hanging around together. They would plan all kinds of activities together, I would join some of these activities; however, all of the discussion continued to be about their divorces. It seemed these people had decided their identity in life was "divorced-person". It's like their problems had become who they were in life. I had a strong aversion to this 30 years ago and I still feel the same way now. This doesn't mean I don't want to deal with my problems. I just don't like the idea that my problems define who I am in life. It seems like a very limiting way to think of myself. So now I view it as finding the right balance. I do what I need to deal with my problems, but I don't let my problems define who I am. When I can have fun with friends that has nothing to do with dealing with my problems, it helps me feel like my problems aren't defining who I am. This makes sense to me, I don't know if it will to anyone else.

    Flower says, "Do either one of you wish that you had friends that you could talk to and openly discuss these issues with outside of this forum?" I mostly talk to my wife who is a very supportive and understanding. I have talked to therapists in the past, and I would do this again. I have had close friends with whom I could discuss these things, but they have moved away, and we don't talk as much. I don't know if I could find a friend like this, if I went out looking for one. In the past, it has just happened without me trying. I wouldn't say I'm actively looking for someone like this now. If it happened, it would be a bonus. But I'm good with the way things are now.

    That's all for now. Hope you all have a great weekend! Thank you for all your thoughtful postings!

    Peace,

    Dave

  • dave_co
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Flower,

    It looks like we did another simul-posting. It sounds like some things said in this forum were bothering you, but I couldn't really figure out what is was from what you wrote. You talked about reacting and feeling misunderstood, but you never said what you were reacting to or how you felt misunderstood. It sounds like you worked this out with your therapist, but I'm still not sure what happened. Can you clarify?

    It sounds like you continue to have a lot of different sources of stress in your life with a very limited amount of support. Hang in there. I hope things become more workable for you.

    Peace,

    Dave

  • josi
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello, everyone!

    I haven't written in a few days, and I found very interesting the very different reactions to Flower's therapeutic abilities! My first thought, as I read it all, was that while someone have a special talent or ability, doesn't necessarily mean it's the best way to earn a living. Growing up I spent hours drawing. I was the on-call artist for whatever art project anyone was having. I did it all with pleasure. Naturally, a lot of people assumed I would become some sort of professional in that field, but I always felt that the final product was only good if it was a result of pleasure. The minute I were to be obligated to produce results in order to pay my bills, all the pleasure would vanish and I wouldn't get that personal satisfaction out of it.

    The same goes with therapy. I tend to listen to a lot of friends' problems and I think they value my advice, even if it's just to make them look at things from a different perspective. But it is a taxing activity, specially we if don't get our turn. And even if that kind of stuff is mutual, I don't think a friendship should be about resolving each others' problems all the time. Friendships should be about exchanging emotional support AND having fun. After all, we're supposed to be grown-ups capable of making our own decisions without having to "take a vote" from every person we know about what to do. We need to learn to listen to our instincts and make decisions by ourselves.

    I have some friends who have been very supportive and understanding of my decision. And in particular, there's one woman who is my mother's age who've had the same problems with her own mother, and our talks are very productive and helpful for both sides. But even so, we chose to not let it be the main focus of our friendship. We don't bring it up every single time we talk. And as I'm slowly letting my in-laws and friends know of my situation, I'm also letting them know when I'm not in the mood to talk about it. Some of them I only see once every couple of months, and so naturally they ask me how the whole soap opera is going. At first I felt obligated to talk about it if they were going out of their way to express their support, but I've found that they are OK when I tell them that I'm doing fine for the most part, but that I'd prefer to talk about it at a different time in order not to spoil our time together. There: They felt like good friends by acknowledging my troubles and offering support, and I did us both a favor by not letting my parents sour another good time.

    Some people might interpret this as me burying my head in the sand and not confronting my issues, but I assure you it's not. I still give it plenty of consideration, and I've taken a lot of hard looks at myself in the past. I don't wish to excuse my reckless behavior and blame it all on my parents. After all, blaming others would be what they do. I had a very rough period where I behaved in a very destructive way toward myself and others, and I think that behavior was a result of the way I was brought up by my incompetent parents. But I just want to learn from my past experiences, understand why I operated the way I did, and move on. Let go of the "programmed" behaviors and reactions and find my true self. Way more productive and rewarding than feeling angry at them for having ruined almost 30 years of my life.

    Okay. I realize I got a little off topic here - I want to make sure you all know I'm talking about MYSELF only! :) I am not implying that we are stuck here complaining about our troubles and blaming our parents. I think it would be much easier to just ignore it all. Reading the experiences of others brings up a lot of muck from the bottom, and it takes courage to let it come up and analyze it. Thank you all for listening and for being so honest.

    Love,
    Josi

  • dave_co
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi All,

    Hi Josi, thanks for your posting! I appreciate your perspective on these topics.

    You say, "while someone may have a special talent or ability, doesn't necessarily mean it's the best way to earn a living." I agree. Doing something for pay, is different than doing it for pleasure, or doing it because we have a talent. Hopefully, whatever we do decide to do for a living does give us some pleasure, and it's something we do have some talent for.

    "Some people might interpret this as me burying my head in the sand and not confronting my issues" I wouldn't, because I can relate to this. For me it comes back to balance. I want to deal with my problems, but I don't want to become my problems. For me this means being able to set problems aside at times, and just enjoy life as it is.

    "But I just want to learn from my past experiences, understand why I operated the way I did, and move on. Let go of the "programmed" behaviors and reactions and find my true self. Way more productive and rewarding than feeling angry at them for having ruined almost 30 years of my life." Very well put! I find myself thinking the same way. This doesn't mean I don't experience anger at my parents anymore. It's just that when this happens, my objective is to understand what happened, and move on. Going around being angry about the past, anymore than I have to, just isn't a very enjoyable way to live my life.

    I don't think this was off topic at all. And yes, writing about all this does stir up muck for me. But I don't know how to understand it, and find some resolution, without first stirring it up. This just seems to be the way things work for me. Take care!

    Peace,

    Dave

  • sage121
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello everyone reading,

    Dave, The photo exercise has been good, it has helped. There are not very many photos of me as a kid, but a do have a few. I find it mind-blowing to look at them, and imagine the burden I was carrying. I see a sad kid, but I also see a resilient kid. To come as far as we did, despite the past, that is something to be proud of. It was not about me back then, it was about my parents, their needs, their own issues, they were playing out their own childhood. It is not about them anymore.

    I also found some pics of me from around the age of 12-13. A time when a particular uncle used to call me fat, unattractive, and tell me that I would never ever find a husband if I didn't lose weight. Well..I was not fat. I was beautiful. What a jerk for laying that sort of guilt on me at such a vulnerable age! The irony is that that I have had a long and happy relationship with my husband, and my uncle has had a miserable time in relationships. Karma?

    Dave, I know what you mean about leaving the 'parent topic' alone for a while. It is a relief. I felt that relief this weekend, we spent some time with friends, outside in the sun, and the thoughts of them rarely crossed my mind. But, I still do sometimes find my thoughts consumed. Between the books I am reading, and the therapy which I go to once a week right now. It is intense, and I leave there with alot to think about. Good to get away from it though, very good to get 'out of my own head' so to speak. I am doing that more often.

    I too have friends that I don't share this topic with. Not everyone can understand, and everyone I know does not need to know this detail about my past. There is no good reason why I have to tell everyone, so I choose not to.

    Dave said: "It's like their problems had become who they were in life. ......I just don't like the idea that my problems define who I am in life. It seems like a very limiting way to think of myself. So now I view it as finding the right balance." I understand what you are saying, very well said! I have found myself slipping into the 'victim role'. I don't want to be this damaged person, who was adversely affected by a sad childhood. I have and still do feel sorry for myself. I don't want to feel sorry for myself wallowing in my stories that I repeat over and over. What it boils down to, for me, is taking control. I am responsible for who I have in my life, how I act, how I react, and how I feel. As you said - balance - that is key. Working on the problems/issues of the past is just a portion of the big picture. It is a relief for me to see progress in this area of my life.

    Flower, I think everyone posting here lately is offering support and ideas to move forward and help. While you mentioned Dave and I have spouses to confide in, and you do not, remember that you have a friend you have mentioned several times that you can talk to. That is something to be thankful for, nurture that relationship. If you find 'friends' are not listening to you, and only expecting you to listen to their problems...are they really 'friends'?

    Hi Josi, Interesting about your art. I have to be in the 'mood' to create. I don't know if 'mood' is the right word? I know I can't force it. It is not something I could do for a living either, for that reason. I go in spurts with it, then leave it for awhile. I had aspirations of becoming an artist at one time, but it has become just a hobby that I love.

    Josi said: "And even if that kind of stuff is mutual, I don't think a friendship should be about resolving each others' problems all the time." I could not agree more. Good to have people to talk to for insight, and support. But as you said, as adults, need to take responsibility for ourselves, not expect others to make decisions for us. Friends, or therapists, or online forums, or books. We can gather the bits and pieces we need, and move past the rest.

    I too have confided in just a couple friends very recently. I have one friend in particular from an emotionally abusive, and severely physically abusive past, and I find we can connect on this subject of parents and offer support and ideas to eachother. Although we both were aware of eachothers past - we have been sharing more details lately. To tell you the truth, until recently, I could never speak of my parents without crying. I am so glad I can at least talk about it now without breaking down. I feel I have made some progress, and it feels good. My friend is also very focused on understanding the past, but at the same time working on the present to make her life better. So I feel we are on the same wavelength that way. Mutually beneficial. I agree, it is not good for this to be the main topic of conversation or the basis of the friendship.

    I think it is great that you are able to say when you do not want to talk about it! I find myself doing this too, now that I have told a few people. I understand people wanting to offer support, but this is an emotional roller coaster for me. Sometimes I can discuss it, other times I just can't. Not avoiding it, but I have to feel strong to talk about it.

    Josi said: "They felt like good friends by acknowledging my troubles and offering support, and I did us both a favor by not letting my parents sour another good time." EXACTLY! :)

    Josi said: "...blaming others would be what they do. I had a very rough period where I behaved in a very destructive way toward myself and others, and I think that behavior was a result of the way I was brought up by my incompetent parents." I can relate to this and am currently going over this topic with my therapist. Blaming. And how my parents were living out their own bad childhoods. I don't want to do that. I don't want to act like them, and I don't want to blame them. I just want to change my own situation.

    Thanks for the inspiration Josi, I really like your attitude.

    I am reading, again, "Change Your Thoughts, Change Your Life" by Wayne Dyer. Good book. I read it awhile ago, but right now it is really resonating with me.

    Take care everyone!!

    Sage

  • flowergardenmuse
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Everyone,

    Dave,says, "It looks like we did another simul-posting. It sounds like some things said in this forum were bothering you, but I couldn't really figure out what is was from what you wrote. You talked about reacting and feeling misunderstood, but you never said what you were reacting to or how you felt misunderstood. It sounds like you worked this out with your therapist, but I'm still not sure what happened. Can you clarify?"

    Thank you for asking--I appreciate that. I don't know if I can clarify, but I will try. It had to do with providing therapy for others.

    I was reacting to this comment, "Flower, While you may want to try to help these people, you can't. You can't change how people act or change what they think. You are NOT a therapist, and maybe just stating that to them would help. The truth is that it is up to you whether you expose yourself to these people, or not. It is your choice, you are not obligated to try to solve anyone's problems. If this is creating anxiety for you, you need to change what you are doing, stop putting yourself in that situation."

    I also reacted to what you said about here, "You seem to have an innate ability to help people. Others seem to sense this ability and seek your help. Have you ever considered becoming a therapist? It sounds like you have a gift that benefits others. You could help others..."

    My first therapist provided me with insight which I believe is true for me, but has been very difficult for me to change myself and the behavior. She said that I was very aware of my emotions and feelings and that was not and never was/is my problem as opposed to those types of people who run around clueless and oblivious. She said that I would have trouble getting out of my feelings. She also said the difficulty for me is finding ways to not allow other people's problems to become mine. My current therapist also agrees (it's not the only issue that I have). I set boundaries, avoid, and distance myself from aggressive people, who often ignore boundaries. I've basically had to estrange my family members because of this. I felt that they left me no other choice.

    With that said, I know that I can't change how people act or change what they think. I don't even think that I want to help people, with the exception of people that I care about. Mostly, I would like for them to learn how to take care of themselves. I may be compassionate and empathetic and a whole lot of other things--the other things being something I wish that some people would see and acknowledge. I also tell people that I'm NOT a therapist and NOT THEIR therapist in particular. It also wouldn't be accurate to say that I have a natural tendency to want to listen to other people's problems. I may be a good listener, but I don't want to feel bombarded or overwhelmed by their problems. I very much want boundaries in place. I also strongly desire a two-way street, relationships which offer both balance and reciprocity. This has been very difficult for me to find.

    I'm also not consciously aware of feeling obligated to solve someone's problems, despite feeling that others' are always trying to impose on me to feel obligated. I know this all has to do with my mother, sisters and father, always being placed in this situation that it was always about them and their feelings--they could never relate to or connect with what I was feeling or how their behaviors and what they said, hurt or how it felt to be placed in that situation and on the receiving end of their behaviors. I know they just couldn't understand, or didn't want to understand how I was feeling and how extradorinarly hurtful it was/is without them twisting it all around into that I somehow deserved their mistreatment or that it was somehow my fault for being selfish or "too sensitive", etc. It was always all about their twisting and turning everything into all about them. Still is and will probably always be and that is a terrible loss.

    As for exposing myself to these types of people I don't intentionally place myself in these types of situations. There's more to it than that. I've talked to my therapist about this and we will be talking about it more. She acknowledges that some people are easier to deal with and avoidance tactics will work and in other situations they will not.

    Survival in my family meant for me being finely attuned to reading people's emotions. My experiences in life have also reinforced this ability, but it is also a burden at times too. Awareness like that can be a horrible burden, especially when you've tried to warn people and they don't listen, and then you watch helplessly while events unfold. I know if I talked more about the situation with my mother some of this might make more sense. Really, my family placed too great a burden on my shoulders.

    I'm also aware that people seem to sense that I'm empathetic and then presume that I should be...all the time. Why they would think that way is beyond me. They may sense I'm a good listener, but that doesn't give them the right to expect or demand it all the time, or act like an angry child if I don't cave into their demands.

    Josi thank you for your thoughtful post and insight. You said, "The same goes with therapy. I tend to listen to a lot of friends' problems and I think they value my advice, even if it's just to make them look at things from a different perspective. But it is a taxing activity, especially we if don't get our turn." Yes, I agree it is very taxing at times--the problem for me is that I rarely feel like I get my turn. I'm not certain that some people value my advice either. In fact, I don't think they do value or appreciate my insight or observations for their own personal growth. My therapist agrees and this has posed problems for me in relationships which are different. I don't know how to act (I know this sounds funny). I do have one relationship with a man, who seeks my opinions and values my honesty, but I hold back for fear that it will anger him. And he always tries to reassure me. I know this is my problem that I have to work through and I know where it comes from, yet it is difficult because of the constant reinforcement of similar experiences. If that makes sense.

    Josi says, "And even if that kind of stuff is mutual, I don't think a friendship should be about resolving each others' problems all the time. Friendships should be about exchanging emotional support AND having fun." I couldn't agree with you more here, but I've found this type of relationship difficult to establish. I can find this with men, although they can pose other problems, but not with women.

    I asked this one woman if she talked to her other friends about the same issues that she told me about. I also asked her what their responses to her were. Her reply was to state that she did some, but they were not as empathetic as I was. I think that is part of the problem as well. I've repeated to her many times to see a therapist. I was hopeful in the beginning of establishing a relationship with reciprocity, but now I find myself once again distancing her, and limiting my interactions, because of her behaviors. This seems to be a recurring problem for me though.
    I don't want any person's problems to be the main focus of the relationship period! I also do not want to bring up issues every time I talk either. That would be inappropriate. I feel I don't do this with others, but I do not feel that they behave the same. I desire balance and finding people who are on the same page has proved difficult. The one friend that I do have recently asked if I felt overwhelmed by him. I did respond yes and it felt good to be able to speak my truth. He hasn't abandoned me for being honest like this, which is not what I've experienced from others, especially women.

    Anyway, I discussed this with my therapist and will do so again. I told her that I needed her help dealing with this. She responded in such a way that made sense to me about what she feels is one of my biggest issues. Blame was another huge issue in my family, and in my husband's famiy. It seems a recurring theme with his associations as well. We've discussed much of these issues as well. I've read her some of our forum discussions and her responses are insightful, but right now I'm still processing what she said. I don't know if I could write it here and do it justice. It may be helpful, since many of us have had a similar feeling--of feeling misunderstood.

    Anway, thank you all for being here and for listening. I appreciate it more than you know. Sometimes just getting this stuff out is difficult.

    Flower

  • dave_co
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Everyone,

    Sage says, "I see a sad kid, but I also see a resilient kid. To come as far as we did, despite the past, that is something to be proud of. It was not about me back then, it was about my parents, their needs, their own issues, they were playing out their own childhood. It is not about them anymore." Well put! Another thing I've gotten out of this exercise is being less focused on them, and more on who I was as a child, what I did to survive, and what behaviors I learned that now want to change. In the past I would spend more time thinking about my parents, now I'm more focused on who I was, and am. What I'm doing now feels better.

    "I don't want to feel sorry for myself wallowing in my stories that I repeat over and over. What it boils down to, for me, is taking control. I am responsible for who I have in my life, how I act, how I react, and how I feel." Well put! I feel the same way. I'm glad to feel like I'm making some progress in this area.

    Hi Flower, it sounds like given all your issues, being a therapist isn't such a good idea. I hope you can continue to make progress getting a handle on all the issues you have going on. Here's another thought on friendships, I don't really know all your interests, but I've found it a lot easier to make friends around common interests. For me this is around biking, skiing, or volunteer activities. For my wife it is knitting among other things. I like these activities and I enjoy doing them with others who enjoy these activities. Sometime when I meet people this way, we end up talking about deeper topics, sometimes we don't. Either way, I'm doing something I enjoy, and I meet some nice people. I really don't think it would be easy for me to meet someone, if my main goal was to be able to talk about my estrangement. Just some thoughts.

    That all for now. Take care.

    Peace,

    Dave

  • flowergardenmuse
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Dave,

    Thanks for responding. I agree and have sought making friendships around common interests. I did volunteer for awhile, but haven't since my injury and other issues. I also joined a hiking group and outdoor group. I wanted to learn flyfishing. I met only a few women in the group. The two women that wound up in my group seemed to get on okay--both were divorced and relating about their experiences and attraction to "bad boys". We went on a mutual outing together where one of them picked a fight with the other over gas money. For whatever reason she assumed that I should side with her in the argument. It was miserable. She also told us both that she normally didn't like associating with women, because she got depressed being around them. On a few outings that I had with her, she was very competitive, made assumptions and presumed a lot based on a whole lot of nothing. After the ugly argument that she started with the other women, she called once and I decided to not return her phone call. I just felt that I didn't want to go down that path. There are more positive and constructive ways to handle conflict. I also can't relate to the attraction to "bad boys," whatever that means. I may have my difficulties with my husband, but I wouldn't label him a "bad boy".

    I have broad interests--joined a writing group. I knit for a time too and garden. I have other interests too. I did injure myself hiking (falling), so I haven't been back to that either, except outings with my husband. We do enjoy that together. I enjoy my one friend too as we have some mutual interests. She doesn't act insane like some people that I've met.

    I really don't talk about myself much (not about the estrangement). I have a wait and see approach and don't reveal a lot of personal information about myself. Some people react negatively to that right away. I don't get that. I've found that most people reveal too much too soon and talk alot about themselves. I'm very selective about revealing information and what I say and to whom. I just don't feel comfortable with too much information. I think I've just had a lot of experiences with difficult and unpleasant people (they seem extreme) that sometimes it's difficult to get back out there and socialize. I guess I've become leary of people and need to move past that. I'd like to find more quality people to associate with and sometimes wonder if that is too high of an expectation. My injuries and physical issues have posed more of a problem lately. I do still get out, but it's more limiting than what I would like to be at this point.

    I did go on a solo trip with a travel adventure outfitter and had a wonderful time. No weirdo's to contend with. My husband was with his family. I drove to the location and we hiked and camped luxury style. I wondered what being in a group situation would be like, given some of my bad experiences. I had so much fun and really enjoyed myself and there were no troubles with difficult inappropriate people. I do get out on my own. I don't have to be around people all the time. So I guess it's just a matter of getting out more again.

    Thanks for your support. I appreciate it. That's all for now...

    Flower

  • sarahsmom
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi all...

    In an effort to understand some of the dynamics of estrangement, possibly to help others..
    Please participate in this survey and make your voice heard...
    it is COMPLETELY confidential...
    Thank you all in advance for your time...

    Click here to take the survey now

  • josi
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeez, did you see the latest gossip about Tori and Candy Spelling? Candy says that the estrangement from Tori was the cause of Aaron's death and that she has no idea "what the anger is about." And she says all this on a radio show!! Self-centered? Check. In denial? Check. Playing the martyr? Check.

    You don't fool us, lady. With or without millions, we know your parenting style.

  • sage121
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello everyone,

    Dave, Thanks for understanding and relating. It is validating for me. Good point about "...being less focused on them, and more on who I was as a child, what I did to survive, and what behaviors I learned that now want to change." I feel more focused on myself as well. And I have been working on this in therapy. It is up to ME to make ME happy now. I control who I associate with, and I determine how I feel. My parents simply do not have any influence over me anymore. It does feel better, much better to think about them less. Thinking about them and what happened in the past serves no purpose, none at all.

    Dave, I agree with the advice you gave Flower about finding friends based around common interests. I have met many friends via interests such as art, yoga, horses/riding etc. I agree, it is just fun to get out and do what you like, and even funner to share the experience with others. And in the process meet people, not necessarily becoming friends with everyone you meet, but a few friendships do develop over time. I think this is the best way to meet people. Not everyone has to know about my personal issues. I only confide in a few people, a couple people who I trust.

    On the other hand, should you meet people at a 'support group' type setting, "the problems" will the centre of the relationship. I imagine personal issues would be discussed alot. Such as our group here, the focus is estrangement, and that is what brought us together. Dave, you mentioned you were part of a 'divorce support group' at one time. I can see how some people define themselves by their issues...I find that to be a way of them staying 'stuck'. I don't want to be that way with this issue of estrangement. I am not a victim of my parents, or anyone, for that matter.

    Flower, I have met people who were very bitter against men because of their own bad experience, and they just hate 'men' in general, and like to let everyone on earth know that. I find this to be a very narrow minded stance. Geesh, and since that women has also written off hanging around with women because they depress her, it sounds like she is setting herself up for being completely alone. Glad you have found a few ways to get out and about and enjoy yourself. I understand the trust issues that occur when you have been hurt time and time again. There are alot of really decent people out there and it would be a shame to let our our trust issues make us miss out on meeting them! Glad we could overcome those trust issues, it is not easy.

    Thanks for being here everyone. :) Have a great weekend!

    Sage

  • sage121
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi there Josi!! I know, I have seen a couple interviews with Candy Spelling. They made my stomach turn, I found them deeply distrubing. Her accusations against Tori are simply horrible, and to make them in such a public way is cruel. An extreme example, but it is a real example of why children find it necessary to estrange themselves from their parents.
    Sage

  • flowergardenmuse
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Everyone,

    I saw the latest accusations from Candy Spelling towards Tori. I decided not to watch or read further. I found it cruel as well. I think it is a very public way to try to shame and control her daughter. That sort of conduct is very manipulative and only creates further distance. It's not about making amends or taking responsibility, or anything positive that would help to heal the relationship. It only creates further damage. Yes, I too believe it is an example of why children find it necessary to estrange themselves from their parents.

    Sage & Dave, I do try to find people with common interests and gave the examples above as what I've encountered. I just get frustrated at times. It gets discouraging when you encounter people like that. I know that I need to just get out again, but repeated exposures to idiots can get to one. I don't like the bitter women either. I get frustrated and I've had negative experiences, but I try to remain open and flexible. It's not always easy to do. I just couldn't believe that she would make a comment like that about that other women depressed her to be around when she was with two women already and on a trip with us. And then she started an arguement about gas. Really it was disappointing. I found her very depressing and I'm glad that i just didn't bother to call her back. Once I talk or discuss issues like this I usually can let it go and release it and that is helpful.

    My yard looks so pretty now. Everything is blooming and it makes me happy to see the results of our hard work. We had some yard gawkers yesterday. They walk by and stop and point. Yesterday, some neighbors out walking their dogs, and people who've I've never met stopped to tell us how much they loved our yard. She said that it was the prettiest in the neighborhood. It's been a lot of work, but I enjoy it. I could do more when my back wasn't hurting. It's a work in progress though and there's still so much to do.

    Well I'm out for another walk. I hope you are all enjoying your weekend.

  • sage121
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Why does the trend seem to be that parents who are estranged from their children have this need to go so very public with this issue? Whether it be via TV interviews, books, blogs, writing songs, etc.? I have noticed this over and over again. Why so public and making such a spectacle of it? I have not read Tori's book, but I imagine she addresses her problems with her mother in it. I don't blame her for doing so, considering the celebrity factor and how harsh her mother was with her accusations.

    Is it to maintain complete control to create their own story as only they see it and cast themselves as the martyr? Or to put themselves in the victim role so people feel sorry for them? Or is it to simply get back at their children for making the decision to lose contact with them? Or are they simply hiding behind 'their story' in order to not deal with their own issues? I mean, it has got to be so humiliating to the children of these people if they see their parents doing this sort of thing in the media for everyone and anyone to see. Or perhaps, for the children, it justifies the decision they made to estrange themselves in the first place? The sad thing is that I could see my own mother doing something like that. Twisting stories to suit herself.

    In the end, I see it as only creating more resentment, and I do not see any good coming out of it. I don't see it leading to reconcilliation, or as a means to help themselves. So why do they do it? Whether they are celebrities, or not, it is a very self centred stance without taking into consideration the feelings of the children. But, perhaps this is why their children estranged themselves in the first place? They never considered their childrens feelings and continue to not consider their children's feelings.

    I personally do not feel the need to advertise my situation in a public way. To me it is personal, which is why I post here, and don't post my real name, my mother's name or other family member's names. What I do feel the need to do is to make contact with other people in my same situation to share, get help, and offer support when I can. While this forum is essentially 'public', it is not advertised, and is not a place most people would really seek out to visit and read unless they were estranged from their parents themselves. At least that is how I see it as. Just some thoughts. Since this Candy/Tori thing has hit the media, it has got me thinking about this aspect of estrangement.
    Sage

  • flowergardenmuse
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello Everyone,

    Sages says, "Why does the trend seem to be that parents who are estranged from their children have this need to go so very public with this issue? Whether it be via TV interviews, books, blogs, writing songs, etc.?"

    Good question. I don't know. Maybe it's a way to twist the situation around. It's denial and deflection arising from hurt, anger and embarrassment. I think people who behave like this--their main goals is to exonerate themselves of any personal accountability and responsibility. She is also seeking sympathy at the same time. The best defense is always a good offense and it looks like she is engaging in this type of behavior. Public side-taking always involves manipulation of other people's opinion of them. In this case the target, her adult daughter, has a public life, so what better way to try to control and manipulate her daughter than to take a private matter and make it public. I can only speculate that she is trying to get people to side with her against her adult child thereby embarrassing her and turning people against her to try to control the outcome.

    If reconcilation is the desired outcome her behaviors indicate otherwise. I don't think she cares about her daughter's feelings. It's all about her. No one would ever make the kind of allegations that she has, if she wanted to heal the relationship and make it better. It's all about her ego. She's just too selfish and lacks introspection, integrity or honesty to look at her own behaviors.

    The only other reason to go public would be to tell your side of the story, if one feels wrongly accused.

    I agree with you as I don't feel a need to advertise my situation in a public way either. I don't see any reason for it. I came here seeking for the same reasons that you state--to make contact with people in similar situations for help, sharing and emotional support.

    Are you going to take the confidential survey? I wonder how such personal questions will be used to help others?

    Flower

  • dave_co
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi All,

    Flower says, "I do try to find people with common interests and gave the examples above as what I've encountered. I just get frustrated at times. It gets discouraging when you encounter people like that. I know that I need to just get out again, but repeated exposures to idiots can get to one." I'm glad you still want to get out do things with others. I think that is a good thing. One thing I've noticed about myself is I have very refined BS detector. (I had lots of practice developing this growing up. Not by choice.) Whenever anyone sets off my detector, I'm ruthless about dealing with them. I have no mercy, when it comes to this. I have no time for self-centered, egotistical people in my life. I overdosed on them growing up. Never will this happen to me again. I have been fooled by a few people, but not many.

    Your yard sounds beautiful! I just planted a few flowers myself. I enjoy seeing things grow in the summer. It is very satisfying.

    I haven't read anything about the Spellings, so I don't have anything to add. Its sounds like a very sad family. It seems money and fame don't necessarily lead to happiness. Take care.

    Peace,

    Dave

  • flowergardenmuse
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Dave,

    It's nice to hear from you. I like the "refined BS detector". I appreciate your sense of humor. I think I've got one too, for the same reasons. I've probably not been as ruthless about dealing with them. My husband, for whatever reason, defeats that and conveniently turns it around to being my problem. I've also been fooled by some too, but usually it is my husband who works against me and us. He just doesn't seem to get it.

    While going through some paperwork I found a letter that I had written to one of his thoughtless, self-centered friends. This miscreant, fool and idiot betrayed my husband's confidence, and used information to attack and hurt me, when I was at a very vulnerable and low point in my life. He made comments about me that were untrue and also none of his business. It naturally created problems in our relationship. I don't get why he would tolerate anyone, nor make excuses for a self-centered idiot who inserted and interferred into our relationship. I called the idiot out on it and put him in his place, something that my husband should have done, but didn't. They guy never took responsibility, but my husband was very weak. He actually cornered him into attending his wedding, and inferred that I didn't give my husband the invitation. He also told him that I was invited, as if I would want to go. I won't go into details about this scumbag--he claimed to be a Christian and would even sermonize at us that we should go to church. He also at one time, admitted to selling drugs and would brag about doing 3 women in a day. He'd make very disrespectful comments about women. He had several DUI's and gambled (football games, etc.) He married a few times. The last one is some woman whose husband died and left her well off. This low-life still calls him, but my husband doesn't see him, although he is not upfront about the reasons why. He sitll refuses and has issues about confronting him, instead stating that he feels the guy knows.

    Instead of apologizing he responded to my husband, inquiring what he said, claiming conveniently a faulty memory. He also said that he showed his brother the letter and his brother thought that I was "mentally disturbed". One of my male friends told me that the guy deserved to be shot and pissed on. I thought that was kindof harsh, although I must admit I concurred with his sentiments and it was good for a laugh. However, I omitted that observation from the letter. I must admit I did however call the guy out on his behavior and thoroughly delineated his ample deficiencies. The loser never did take an ounce of responsibility nor did he apologize. I called him a vile miscreant, among other things. He's probably too stupid to know what that means.

    My husband's initial reaction was to respond that my letter was a character assassination. Then he changed and said that the idiot deserved it. Really, the man is not rationale. I get frustrated and depressed around him having to deal with these constant issues. I will say that it did feel very good to put this clown in his place. I feel conflicted though in these situations because at the same time I also feel resentful towards my husband for not having the balls to deal with the situation or being placed in it to begin with. Afterall, he's the one that brought this junkheap of a human being into our life together to begin with and I feel that it is his responsibility to address problems created by the losers. I don't think it an unreasonable stance to ask him to participate in problem solving. I know it's his problem but it creates problems for me. I feel emotionally abandoned at the same time. It is not a good place to be in and adds to feeling constantly bombarded and overwhelmed. I really resent it given all that I have to contend with.

    Dave thank you for your kind comment about our yard. I've always loved gardening and growing flowers and even veggies. I've had to limit that due to my back pain, but I admire the beauty of nature and I think it manifests in my love of gardening and watching things grow. It's nice to know that you enjoy growing flowers too.

    My neighbor grumbles about the patch of wildflowers that we planted on the side. He is a miserable old goat, always grumpy, fault finding and overly free with the negative opinions. I try to ignore his mindless cauterwalling and treat it like the pesky buzzing of flies. I do admit that I enjoy some of the people stopping by and it's nice to know that not everyone is negative and sour in life about everything.

    I didn't read much about the Spellings either, but I gleaned enough from the headlines. I've had it up to my eyeballs with the misery lovers and seekers. I wish there was a way to stop narcissists from multiplying or devise a way to shoot them off into space. Maybe swat them like irritating flies. A person can dream once in awhile. Well, better off thinking about flowers...

    Well that's all for now. Thank you for listening and allowing me to vent. Take care,

    Flower

  • sage121
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi everyone,
    Yes, the good old 'bs detector', I like to think mine is rather find tuned too! lol We have talked about this before, it is a good way to live. And we have had our fair share of being treated unfairly already. My husband and I have become very ruthless in this way as well, personally as well as with business. Keep the toxic people out - because life is too short to deal with jerks. It is simply not worth it.
    Sage

  • sage121
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just wanted to share from the book "The Narcissistic Family: Diagnosis and Treatment" Donaldson-Pressman and Pressman, that Dave originally found and posted about, and I have been reading. Here are a few quotes from the book:

    "The Narcissistic Family often resembles the proverbial shiny red apple with a worm inside: it looks great, until you bite into it and discover the worm. The rest of the apple may be fine, but you have lost your appetite.

    In the narcissistic family, most of what happens can be 'just fine' but the emotional underpinningss are not there. The children are not getting their emotional needs met, because the parents are not focused on meeting them. Instead of providing a supportive, nurturing, reality-based mirror for their children, narcissistc parents present a mirror that reflects their own needs and expect their children to react to those needs. The focus is skewed, and the children grow up feeling defective, wrong, to blame.

    When one is raised unable to trust in the stability, safety and equity of one's world, one is raised to distrust one's own feelings, perceptions, and worth. When one is raised as a reactive/reflective being - as an Echo - one has not been taught the skills necessary to live a satisfying life."

    "..In talking about the narcissistic family system, we are not describing individuals with chronic disorders. Instead we are talking about a new framework for 1. looking at the way people learned to interact in their families of origin 2. analyzing the adult consequences of those childhood patterns of interaction, and 3. organizing statagies for dealing with those consequences in therapy. So, to the patient who needs to know 'who's looney now?', the answer is nobody or everybody; what difference does it make? This model is not about pathology, it is about acceptance - acceptance of the realities of the past, and the possibilities for productive change in the present."

    ----The last part of what I quoted means alot to me: "who's looney now?" First off, it is a fact that my parents were indeed flawed, possibly even mentally ill to some degree, I see evidence of that in some of the basic ways that I was treated as a young child and throughout my life. Whether they had some mental illness issues of their own that they refused to face, or were reacting to their own dysfunctional upbringing, I will never know. While this all does still hold some truth to me - it simply DOES NOT MATTER right now. It has taken me a long time to accept that, and I am still working on accepting that. It serves no purpose to blame, judge, label, try to change them, overlook and tolerate what they do, or hold resentment against them right now. Why would I do that? It makes me feel ill inside and it is useless. I made the choice to not have contact with them, and I made this choice for my own good reasons. It is now my responsibility to move forward and make further choices that will make me happy. I deserve to be happy as much as anyone else on earth deserves to be happy. I am giving myself peace-of-mind, because nobody else can do that for me.

    This book is written for therapists, a type of book I have never read before. Very well written, practical, with information you can really put to use. I would highly recommend this book to anyone who has estranged themselves from their parents. I could relate to what is written on nearly every page of this book.

    Thanks for being here and listening. Have a good weekend everyone!

    Sage

  • sage121
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    re: The Spellings
    Yes, this issue can affective everyone - dispite how much money or fame you have. I don't normally follow celebrity news, but with this issue, I feel a strong connection. (Although I am mindful that what is on the news may not even be reported accurately.) My family is not by any stretch rich or famous - but the mother reminds me so much of my own mother in a way. I feel sorry for the fact that their personal issues are played out publicly for everyone to judge. If the daughter responds publicly, I can't say I would blame her. I would probably do the same thing to defend my own reputation, if I were in that situation and such horrid accusations were put on public display.

    It is interesting how this seems to be the trend of narcissists. They want the world to know their own 'story', they want their side broadcast in a very brazen and overtly over-the-top way, with shocking accusations that are stated in a very casual way. Yet they do it in a way so that they want to appear like they are the ones 'reaching out' and so desparately desiring reconcilliation and a relationship with their kids/grandkids. How on earth can they not see how their actions do nothing but make the situation even worse?

    It is all about them and how they perceive the situation; doesn't seem to matter if the statements are true, or not, or whether they could ever even be validated as true. It seems to me that they want people to side with them, feel sorry for them, support them, give them attention - while passive aggressively getting back at their children for estranging themselves. And it always seems to be done in such an emotionless manner. Weird..it boggles my mind.

    I wonder how anyone could get past such accusations and reconcile? It does happen, people do reconcile and I respect the fact they are able to. I personally, after all that has happened, don't ever see reconciling with my parents. I am more sure of that as time goes on. And to tell you the truth, I don't even desire that anymore, as I did in the past. Our relationship is truly over now. It still makes me sad, and always will, but it is something I accept.

    Flower, I am sorry you are in so much turmoil over what your husband and his friends do. You really should not have to live that way. Nobody should. I hope one day that you can find a way to get yourself out of that miserable environment and spend time around people who are not so annoying to you.

    Sage

  • dave_co
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello All,

    Sage says to Flower, "I hope one day that you can find a way to get yourself out of that miserable environment and spend time around people who are not so annoying to you." I couldn't agree more. My experience is that hanging around people like your husband and his friends is like drinking contaminated water. It just makes me sick. Trying to think about the water differently, or having a better attitude about it, or drinking it in small sips doesn't help. I just need to stop drinking it and find better water.

    Hi Sage, I'm glad you found the book helpful. I read it front to back 3 times. After reading the book, doing the exercises in the book, journaling several times a week, taking time for meditation and prayer, some long discussion with my wife, and of course writing on this website over the last couple of months, I feel like I'm in a better place regarding my estrangement with my parents. I can't imagine that it will ever be a happy topic, but it doesn't feel as burdensome anymore. I think of it less often, and when I do, I usually think that I am glad that I did it, and shudder at the thought of going back to the way it was before with my parents. I feel a little lighter and more authentic :-)

    Sage says, "Whether they had some mental illness issues of their own that they refused to face, or were reacting to their own dysfunctional upbringing, I will never know. While this all does still hold some truth to me - it simply DOES NOT MATTER right now. It has taken me a long time to accept that, and I am still working on accepting that. It serves no purpose to blame, judge, label, try to change them, overlook and tolerate what they do, or hold resentment against them right now. Why would I do that? It makes me feel ill inside and it is useless." This was a very powerful concept for me too! For me this was when I really started to understand that what I feel matters. This was never true when I was a child. In fact I was taught just the opposite which was that what I felt was meaningless. However, now I understand that if thinking about them makes me feel ill, and my feelings really matter, then it is OK to stop thinking about them. It's so simple, but for me it was a radical change in perspective and beliefs.

    "I personally, after all that has happened, don't ever see reconciling with my parents. I am more sure of that as time goes on. And to tell you the truth, I don't even desire that anymore, as I did in the past. Our relationship is truly over now. It still makes me sad, and always will, but it is something I accept." Well said. I feel very much like this myself. They rejected me. They never gave an inch (or a millimeter in Canada), being around them was misery. Why would I ever go back? I would have to be a masochist to even consider it. No thank you. (taking a long deep breath)

    I hope all is well! I appreciate you all being there, listening, supporting, sharing, advising while I go through all this. Many, many thanks!!

    Peace,

    Dave

  • sage121
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello everyone reading,

    Dave, I am glad you are feeling in a better place with this situation!!! That is just great, we deserve it. I am very grateful for the support here, and for the book recommendation. It has helped me alot. I went through the book multiple times too and did the exercises. Thanks so much! I hope everyone who runs across this forum will read it.

    No, this will never be something I will ever completely put behind me, it hurts too deeply, but as you said, it is less burdensome now. I have helped myself to heal and I am proud that I took the steps I needed to take to do this. I feel more authentic as well, such a relief to not have to 'go through the motions' and tolerate their toxic behaviour. To me, this has been a very big part of the healing for me. Being real, not pretending, not stuffing emotions.

    Dave said: "For me this was when I really started to understand that what I feel matters. This was never true when I was a child. In fact I was taught just the opposite which was that what I felt was meaningless." Yes, me too. And not only when I was a child, I realized that what I felt as an adult was also meaningless to them.

    I am still struggling with this concept of 'it does not matter anymore'. It was a big change in perspective for me too. It boils down to caring for myself, because what I feel does indeed matter to me and it matters to people who love me. When people do not care how I feel, or disregard how I feel and brush me off, I don't need them in my life. Caring how someone feels is such a basic human emotion. So necessary in relationships. There is nothing good that comes out of trying to maintain contact with people who blatently do not care how you feel.

    Dave said: "They never gave an inch (or a millimeter in Canada).." lol Ya, true, oh how I can relate to the misery. I don't miss that at all, a huge relief to not have to go through that anymore.

    I find this time of year particularly emotional. First mother's day, and then father's day is coming up here very soon. This will be the first father's day that I won't send a card. I don't know why a commercial holiday affects me so much? I guess it is because of the great emphasis my mother has always put on 'holidays' of all kinds. She would send Easter, Valentines Day, and even St. Patricks Day(!) cards. Buying into commercialism hook, line and sinker! Her expectation of giving (and receiving) of generic greeting cards and gifts was something she put alot of emphasis on. It is all so incredibly fake, I am so glad I am not participating in that anymore. It feels good to only buy gifts and cards for people I genuinely care about, and give them with sincerity.

    The conflict I have had with my parents was mainly via my mother. All corrospondence was with my mother - my father never said much, never called or wrote. Yes, I went through the motions of sending greeting cards, striking up mundane meaningless conversation when they were here and 'keeping in touch'. It was always very uncomfortable, with long periods of silence. Even with in-person visits, he didn't say much. This really shows his lack of effort to build relationships. He can't (or as I believe, chooses not to) face anything even remotely emotional. I consider him a spineless coward and I have no respect for him whatsoever for this reason. This aloofness always bothered me, when we were in touch that is. As I think about it today though...it doesn't bother me as much now as it used to. I really just simply doesn't matter...

    Have a good week everyone,
    Sage

  • dave_co
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello All,

    Sage says, "I have helped myself to heal and I am proud that I took the steps I needed to take to do this. I feel more authentic as well, such a relief to not have to 'go through the motions' and tolerate their toxic behaviour. To me, this has been a very big part of the healing for me. Being real, not pretending, not stuffing emotions." I like what you said here. I does seem that a big part of the healing is being more real. I never felt this way around my parents, either growing up, or as an adult. I also tolerated a lot of behavior from them that was hurtful, insulting, and demeaning. I did this only because they were my parents. They completely and totally violated their position as my parents. Enough of that nonsense.

    "I am still struggling with this concept of 'it does not matter anymore." This is a tough one. For me it feels like I've been holding something tightly in my hand that I thought was valuable, but has very sharp edges that are hurting me very badly. I've been learning I need to open my hand and let go of this. And that it isn't as valuable as I thought. And when I open my hand the pain diminishes and I can start to heal. And with my hand open, I am open to new experiences in life. Trying to figure out where the sharp edges came from, or being mad about them, can be more of an obstacle than helping in this process. And this is still hard for me.

    "I find this time of year particularly emotional. First mother's day, and then father's day is coming up here very soon. This will be the first father's day that I won't send a card. I don't know why a commercial holiday affects me so much?" Different things push our buttons, don't they? I think for me these holidays remind me of what families can be, and what mine wasn't. As sad as this is, it is also motivation for me to live a better life than I had growing up.

    My father is spineless coward too! He puts on a big act like he is some really cool, tough guy, but in reality he is just a loud-mouth jerk whose solutions to everything that makes him uncomfortable is to get drunk and make an ass of himself.

    Well, I'm going to be off-line for a while starting this Saturday. I'm leaving with my two sons for a two-week Boy Scout canoe trip in western Ontario. We won't return home until 26 June. It should be a lot of fun :-) Thanks again to everyone for being there. I still find it hard to believe I've found a place to talk about all this stuff with people who understand what I'm talking about and who are so insightful, kind, and understanding. Thanks!

    Peace,

    Dave

  • flowergardenmuse
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello Sage & Dave and everyone,

    Sage says to Flower, "I hope one day that you can find a way to get yourself out of that miserable environment and spend time around people who are not so annoying to you." I couldn't agree more. My experience is that hanging around people like your husband and his friends is like drinking contaminated water. It just makes me sick. Trying to think about the water differently, or having a better attitude about it, or drinking it in small sips doesn't help. I just need to stop drinking it and find better water.

    Thank you for both acknowledging the difficulty. I still need to vent and desire emotional validation from some people, although I'm discerning about whom. I know this is probably because it was so lacking in my life. I don't think anyone likes feeling judged, especially when it is done frequently and inaccurately. I know this stems from my own family and also my husband's family and it continued with his associations. People who automatically respond with "validation needs to come from inside you" and all like-minded cliches miss the point. Of course, this is true to a certain extent, but we benefit greatly from friendships and people who can offer understanding of and emotional support for our individual challenges and situations. That has been lacking in my life and unbringing. What has not been lacking is the people who presume and expect that from me. Understanding beyond cliches is far more helpful. I shared that story with you, so that you could see how "nice" he is--something which others don't see, but he works hard to give them that impression of him and that is not the same as being true to oneself and learning to be honest with others. He does have good qualities, but that behavior is destructive. I also tend to focus on my negative feelings about him here, because it is one of the few places that I can and do feel that I can be honest about it. I don't have that luxury elsewhere and I would like some balance.

    On the bright side I did stand up for myself. I did tell the guy the problem and the reasons why he wasn't invited over to our home. He was given an option--a choice to take responsibility and to apologize, and predictably he chose not too. He would just come over unannounced. He would also call on the phone. Every time he did it was a constant reminder. I effectively stopped that from him. Sadly, I had to state in my letter that I would take legal action against him, if he ignored those stated boundaries and came over. I think it ridiculous that I had to even write a letter, let alone threaten him with legal action. I believe that I it was my husband's responsibility to take action to resolve the problem. I also resent the difficulties imposed on me, because my husband is so afraid of conflict that he can't address the issue himself with the people that he brings into our life together. He always twists his failure to do so and conveniently turns it into my problem--trying to make me out to be unreasonable. Yes, in some ways it has made me stronger, but the outcome is far more complicated than a simple cliche. I've grown quite tired of such focused simple-mindedness on complicated issues.

    Unfortunately, these are the types of situations that happen and if I went to my mother about it, or my sisters they would find fault with me. They would not understand and turn it all into how I need to be fixed. It would become all about how I'm the problem. I get the same treatment from my husband and I really have not had people in my life who see the problem. My husband surrounds himself with enablers. I guess he views that as the basis for friendship. He feels secure with people who make it all about taking sides and being right. It can be very confusing at times and emotionally isolating when you do not have other people that you can occasionally turn too for emotional support and understanding. It's hard to hold on to one's own truth. You start to doubt and question yourself and your own sanity. It's hard to go through life always feeling emotionally under siege. I've felt depressed and downtrodden being exposed to that. Sadly, some of the women who I've known are enamoured of my husband's charm, easy-going, nice demeanor and "love for me", and so they are not emotionally supportive either. In fact, some act downright jealous and competitive. The responses I've always heard are that he loves you. It can feel unreal and confusing. Likewise, these people who can only be your friend, if they feel superior or always do for them is sick. The numbers of people that I've met who behave like this is overwhelming. I want to believe that there are good people out there, but at times it's difficult to hold onto that when you experience people otherwise.

    I don't see my husband's family (I've never been welcomed). They treat people poorly, unless it is someone that they're trying to impress. It's clear that they've never wanted me around, although they will send an invitation. It's a very superficial gesture, which I can only guess is to cover their ass and make them feel better--ease their guilty conscience. I also do not socialize with my husband anymore either. I don't have any good memories of the people that he has brought into our life together and I don't have confidence that he will address situations if they arise. It just doesn't work to be around him with people, because his people-pleasing issues create too much grief.

    I'm searching for more of my own friends. He's been very controlling in this regard too, always trying to choose my friends for me and make it all about him. My sisters both tried to do this as well, while at the same time trying to make it out that they were trying to help me and that I'm just an ungrateful little b**ch and selfish. He's always trying to suggest that he is trying to help me or behaving that way because of his concern or love for me. It's not helpful. It's controlling. The problem is that I don't ask them for help, nor do I want to be fixed by them. This side of my husband is also something that others don't see, but it doesn't prevent them from judging me. It's just easier for some people to label me as reclusive or introverted, etc., than to really see the problem and to offer emotional support, rather than judgment. I think it would be natural to become a recluse around such thoughtless, self-absorbed people. It's repeated emotional abuse, which I don't want to be exposed too.

    I think my sisters are narcissists. As for my mother, I think she has other issues, but she does have some of those tendencies. I definitely think my husband's sister, mother and father are all narcissists. I believe my husband is too, or he has those tendencies.

    I think you both see the problem and turmoil that this has created for me. I think you both see that my husband has issues and that it arises from his own family upbringing and has nothing to do with me. At least I hope you do. He attracts such self-absorbed people and then makes excuses for their behaviors. I don't like being exposed to it. I'm hopeful that you would see the situation that I wrote of above and clearly see that the man, my husband's friend is someone with a lot of issues and that my husband has his own share. This is one of my insecurities--needing some validation and support. It seems so missing in my life. If people can relate they choose not too, or it feels like they are not because of how they respond back. This is just one story and one instance of the problems, which I used to illustrate some of the difficulties that I have to address and cope with. I have far too much to deal with in my own life than to have to feel constantly under siege, attacked and bombarded by his behaviors and his self-absorbed friends and family, let alone my own.

    It's been very difficult finding quality people who don't make everything all about them or who even try to relate. Guess they can't. I've embarked on therapy and have been working on my issues step by step. I've worked on myself. I know it is my responsibility. I hate it when people lecture me about that when I've been working hard on that. Maybe because I need to vent and talk about my feelings they just react and think I'm not over it.

    It sounds like the book is very good. Wish it wasn't expensive. I've read so many books that I wonder if it would be helpful to me. I always feel so overwhelmed and that is one issue that I really need help with which I've discussed with my therapist.

    Well thank you for listening and being here. I'm glad you both are feeling in a better place about your situation.

    Flower

  • sage121
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Dave,

    Thanks for the support, love the analogy!! Very true. Good point about the holidays, I tend to get melancholy as the holidays of all kinds approach and need to change my attitude towards them. They can be a time of looking forward - not looking back. My father is the same way, and was especially that way when he drank. Pathetic, self-centred and selfish behaviour.

    I too am still amazed I have found this place. It has been a huge help to post here, to be listened to and to be understood. It is a difficult topic to discuss.

    Have a great trip, catch up with you when you get back! :)
    Sage

  • dave_co
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Flower,

    I'm glad the understanding and validation you get here is helpful. Your situation sounds just awful. You seem to understand what kind of people you are around, and what they are doing to you. It sounds like you know you need to get away from these people, but that your current situation doesn't make that easy. I'm wondering how you see things unfolding for you in the future? Do you see yourself trapped with these people the rest of your life? Do you see your health improving enough for you to make changes? I don't doubt anything you say about your situation. It sounds intolerable, and I wonder where you see yourself headed. I'm glad you've found this place to vent and get some understanding and validation.

    Peace,

    Dave

  • sage121
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Flower,

    I wonder the same things Dave does. You are in a hurtful situation, I can see that. While it is good to vent, be understood and validated, there comes a time when you have to take control and responsibility for your own happiness. I say that from experience, because I have been where I felt was 'stuck' in similar situations in the past, with toxic people, as you describe. I found myself always pointing the finger at what they did, and what they were doing to me to make me feel this way - while in reality it was 'me' who was allowing them to harm me.

    The most recent example is with my parents. I kept in touch with them, I felt an obligation, I tried to fix the relationship, knowing every point of contact with them was horribly draining and depressing. I knew it was hurtful, that was obvious, but I did not change anything for years and years. I just kept doing the same thing and it kept getting worse. Was so frustrated because I could not figure out how to make it better. That is why I made the decision to cut them out of my life. There was no good coming out of the relationship or in us remaining in contact or spending time together.

    Flower said: "I think you both see the problem and turmoil that this has created for me." You are causing your own turmoil by staying around these people. You have tried for long enough, hoping things will get better, I am not sure exactly how long, but from what you have posted it seems like a very very long time. They are not going to change. You have been trying to tolerate them, trying to keep them from affecting you, trying to learn how to cope with their behaviour, and analyzed what their 'problems' are and why they do what they do.

    To tell you the truth, I would rather be alone than be around people like you describe.

    I am going over this exact subject in therapy right now. Blame. I blame my parents for alot of what has happened to me, how they made me feel, behaviours I adopted from them, how they treated me as a child and adult, and also how they reacted anytime I expressed my own needs. Yes, they are to blame in part, especially when I was a child who was dependant upon them. They are not innocent and what they did affected me and should not ever be overlooked or forgiven. BUT I don't need to have them around me to hurt me anymore. It is entirely up to me to make changes.

    We are all adults here. Our happiness is not dependant on anyone else but ourselves. You can vent, complain, feel victimized, talk to therapists forever, re-hash things that they did or said, read books, etc but until you actually make some real life changes and surround yourself with some positive people, the situation will not get better.

    I am being direct because I am trying to help. I still struggle with all this myself, so am by no means trying to make it sound like it is easy to do. I do wish you all the best. You deserve happiness, everyone does!!! I am going to be away for a few days....so will catch up next week. Josie are you still out there? Hope everyone is doing well...

    Sage

  • flowergardenmuse
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Dave,

    "I'm glad the understanding and validation you get here is helpful." Thank you. The venting really does help me to purge and release it, allowing me to move forward. I feel that is very positive for me. I view it as more than just venting though, I feel the writing about my feelings and experiences is similar to journaling, only I'm writing to someone instead of having it private.

    "You seem to understand what kind of people you are around, and what they are doing to you." Thank you for acknowledging this. I think I have a pretty good handle on it. It's far easier to see other people's issues than seeing your own. With that said I think therapy and reading has been helpful. I am taking steps to improve my situation and I've have made changes, which I feel are positive. I do need to remind myself of the positive changes that I've made, especially when I get down for not seeing changes as quickly as I would like.

    I did stop the guy as I said above. That is positive. I no longer socialize with my husband, so I'm not currently having to be exposed to the destructive people that he tolerates. I've enforced some boundaries and so far he isn't ignoring the one's about people coming over. That is helpful and more tolerable, so that I don't feel under attack in my own home. I've distanced myself from him, due to his behaviors. I've had to do this to protect myself. It's not the best outcome or what I had hoped for, however it is how I'm currently managing the situation. I don't look at this coping mechanism as inflexible. I try to view this as allowing me to take small steps forward and to manage this while I focus on my health. I view my health as being a limiting factor here. If I can get to the place where I feel better physically, then I know that I will feel emotionally stronger as well.

    I don't have contact with my husband's family. I am trying to cope with the residual negative feelings still. Other than writing about my experiences, I'm unsure how to purge all of that out of me. I've also cut out other people from my life. Some of these people still try to contact me and I'm unsure what to do about that. I don't initiate contact with them and I do not act cruel back. I do have feelings about them contacting me though. I find it weird, unnerving and perturbing when people try to contact me after a few years or longer, given their negative behaviors. I think they may be trying to alleviate themselves of a guilty conscience.

    I don't have contact with my sisters, but I do still have residual feelings there to work through. I have very limited contact with my mother. I feel better about myself away from her and with limited contact. I still have feelings to work through there too. I do want to see her, but I'd like to feel stronger emotionally before I do.

    I would like to get out more, but my physical pain has prevented me from being able to socialize and to get out to the degree and extent that I normally would, and that tends to frustrate and depress me. I have only a few friends. I've made the decision to drastically curtail much involvement with one, because she is draining. I've continued to nurture the positive relationship with the one woman.

    There are areas that I need to work on and I am in therapy doing that.

    Dave says, "...your current situation doesn't make that easy." No, my current situation hasn't made it easy. It does get frustrating to feel limited as I am, but I'm hanging in there and still working towards this.

    "Do you see yourself trapped with these people the rest of your life?" NO. With slow progress it can sometimes feel that way. Perhaps I'm too hard on myself. I will admit to getting very down at times. I do try to focus on what progress I've made.

    "Do you see your health improving enough for you to make changes?" I admit that this has been very,very frustating to me. I've had a lot of setbacks. It's difficult to remain hopeful, but after I get it out of me and vent, I persevere and get back up and keep plugging away. I definitely feel that the pain does affect my emotions. I think the drugs that I take for managing the pain do as well. I cannot overlook that. It's very hard. A lot of my therapy at first was very focused on this and managing the crisis unfolding with my mother being institutionalized as well. During the same time frame my MIL was hospitalized over 36 times and she died almost 7 months after my surgery. My therapist also says that I've had an enormous amount of difficulties and challenges to cope with.

    Dave says, "I don't doubt anything you say about your situation." Thank you. I really appreciate this. It feels very validating and supportive. I've had far too many people respond in ways that don't acknowledge my experience. It's very positive for me when someone does.

    "I'm glad you've found this place to vent and get some understanding and validation." I'm trying to move forward as best I can and thank you for offering the understanding, validation and support. I'm certain it's not always easy to listen to it.

    Thank you for listening and being here.

    Flower

  • dave_co
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Flower,

    I'm really glad to hear that you feel you are making positive changes and moving forward. I understand how discouraging and frustrating it can be, when things don't change as quickly as we want. Don't be too hard on yourself about this. I really hope your health improves so that you won't be as limited as you are now. I'm also glad to hear you say you don't think you will be trapped with these people the rest of your life. Some people do get stuck in situations like yours and never get out. It's good to hear you don't think this will happen to you.

    Today I'm busy with last minute preparations for my canoe trip. We are leaving very early tomorrow morning. Hang in there! I'll be checking back in at the end of the month.

    Peace,

    Dave

  • josi
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello! Yeah, I'm still here.

    I haven't been posting lately because I feel that you guys have known each other for quite a while, and I don't want to be giving my two cents without knowing more of your backgrounds. The last thing I want to do is offend anyone, so I try to only post my own experiences, but risk coming across as uncaring. That is not the fact.

    Especially with Flower's situation, I can relate to having a partner who is less than perfect. It sounds to me like you don't get a lot of good from your marriage, but I am not there to tell. I can only tell you what happened to me.

    I was with my first husband for eight years, and he was and still is crazy about me. He is truly a wonderful guy, but he was a lousy husband. He was also not ready at all to be a partner and I felt very alone. I had the same experience where everybody else adores him an tells me how cool he is and how much he loves me, but nobody can understand how it feels to be his wife. In a way, it was a parallel of my relationship with my parents, where everybody else thinks they're great, but everybody else doesn't get treated like I do, so they are incredulous.

    After years of agonizing, I finally decided to leave him, and it was the saddest thing I've ever gone through. I loved him, he loved me, yet I know we were not going to be happy together. But I stuck to it, and ended up remarrying a couple of years later. My present husband is wonderful, and our marriage is a stark contrast from my previous one. Now I see very clearly how inadequate that relationship was.

    But I realize I was very lucky to have found someone else. I was very afraid of being alone or just joining the legion of single women out there who are always dating but never find anyone. But I had finally gotten to the point where I could see that clearly, I got nothing good out of the marriage. I catered to all his emotional needs as well as acted like some sort of caregiver-slash-personal assistant, yet he was completely removed from my life, my friends, my feelings. So I starting to think, you know, good riddance. I have nothing to lose.

    Flower, it also seems to me like you're stuck in a rut somehow. I don't to say this in a judgmental way, I'm not implying that it is because of something you do or doesn't do, because I haven't been around long enough to even know. But I've felt in that position before, where nothing around me was satisfactory: my friends, my job, my school, my view of myself. And then I had a close friend, actually an ex-boyfriend who honestly told me that things around me wouldn't change unless I changed myself. So within three months I had a new major, a new job, new friends, and a completely new attitude. For me, part of it was the way I was presenting myself to the world. If I didn't like to be perceived a certain way, I had to quit presenting myself that way, because that wasn't the real me. After I proactively changed my behavior, in a very short time people were shocked to realized how much I'd changed. It wasn't comfortable in the beginning, but with time I learned to relax into my new skin.

    So maybe this tidbit of information can help you. Ask yourself what is it exactly that prevents people from "getting" you. If people don't understand who you really are, it's hard to make true friends. Do people read you wrong? Why? Do you send wrong signals out of habit? I sent wrong signals out of self-defense mechanisms I developed from dealing with my crazy parents.

    If none of this rings true to you, please don't take offense. I am the first to admit I haven't been here long enough to know you. I am just giving you what my impressions are, I'm not saying that my impressions are correct. You seem to be the kind of person, like all of us here, who isn't afraid of looking at the dirt under the rug the make the house cleaner, so there's my two cents.

    It was my birthday last month and my parents sent me a card, even though I ignored my mother's birthday just four days before. Looks like they took a clue from my sending a mother's day card that this is the only communication I'm allowing them for the time being. It makes me feel guilty that they may see this as a sign that maybe slowly over time we will be on a speaking basis and they can come and visit, which is something I don't want. I feel so conflicted over this.

    My husband and I are about to move into a beautiful house we've been building. My parents saw the beginning of the construction. I feel the urge to tell them about it, send them pictures, but I am afraid that that will turn into ammunition against me. I would like them to be happy for me, but I've learned from past experiences that the house may turn into some weird proof in the accusations they make against me, like of being stuck-up, treasuring material possessions above family values, etc. (By the way, traits that they themselves possess) I think people trust their parents to not hurt them, and I completely lost that trust. I felt happy to receive a card with generic but kind words on my birthday, showing that I am still a little like a love-starved puppy. They send a crumble of love and that threatens to make me reconsider all the horrendous behavior I had to endure before.

    Peace,

    Josi

  • flowergardenmuse
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Josi,

    I appreciate your honesty and thank you for what you said here, "The last thing I want to do is offend anyone, so I try to only post my own experiences, but risk coming across as uncaring." I appreciate that you said this and don't want to offend. It would take a lot of reading to know about our individual backgrounds, given how much we've all been writing, so I appreciate you sensitivity and awareness in this regard.

    Thank you for what you said here too, "Especially with Flower's situation, I can relate to having a partner who is less than perfect. It sounds to me like you don't get a lot of good from your marriage, but I am not there to tell. I can only tell you what happened to me." I do get some good from my marriage, but I tend to focus on the more negative issues here, because I can and right now I need too. I feel it a necessary step in my process. I also don't have many outlets or people to talk too about this and it has built up inside of me. I need to get it out of me. Some of the problems have intensified given all that I've had to cope and deal with. I'm very imperfect with the whole process.

    I can relate to what you said here, "I was with my first husband for eight years, and he was and still is crazy about me. He is truly a wonderful guy, but he was a lousy husband." I don't know if my husband is crazy about me. I think he needed me, but his behaviors do not feel loving. I also think my husband has good qualities, which I do see, but he has refused to address many issues which do impact me and our relationship in an unhealthy and destructive way. I feel he's been very selfish and yes, this has made him a lousy husband in many ways.

    I can relate to this as well, "He was also not ready at all to be a partner and I felt very alone. I had the same experience where everybody else adores him an tells me how cool he is and how much he loves me, but nobody can understand how it feels to be his wife." This is a very terrible position to be placed in. I think it exacerbates the situation and feelings of aloneness. When you try to discuss a problem with others--a very real, difficult problem, and then they respond by telling you how much he loves you is inappropriate and dismissive. For whatever reason they chose not to hear you. I don't know why. At least that is how it felt/feels to me. People seem to go from one extreme to the other--they start talking of divorce, which is very unhelpful or they minimize the problem. To make matters worse, I really didn't have any family around me who responded in emotionally supportive or healthy ways--they always focused on me as being the problem. In fact, they have always focused on me as being the problem period. Then they suggest that they are trying to be helpful or supportive and that is very confusing and nut inducing behavior. That left me feeling like I had no one to talk too and no one that I could even trust given their particular slants, which never felt objective or helpful. I see my family, and others as deriving a great deal of self-importance as my expense. It certainly allowed both of my sisters, and mother to feel superior by masking arrogance and lack of empathy as being helpful. It really was all about them.

    I can relate to part of this comment as well, "In a way, it was a parallel of my relationship with my parents, where everybody else thinks they're great, but everybody else doesn't get treated like I do, so they are incredulous." Yes, I get some of this too, although I have not heard other people's opinions of my family as being so great. I did hear this about my husband's family. So, then people respond with that you are treated differently than they are, so they conclude that you are and must be the problem, insead of acknowledging the very real problematic behaviors that create the dynamic and conflict. I don't find behaviors so simple. I feel that this is a very similar dynamic that plays out with assault victims and how they are blamed--people conclude that they have never experienced rape or assault, so therefore the victim must have done something to deserve it.

    I don't have a lot of time to respond today, so that is all for now. Thank you for responding Josi...and for being here and listening.

    Flower

  • josi
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh, Flower, I am so relieved I was not misunderstood. After I posted, I was getting really worried. Yeah, I agree that what we post here is just a slice of our lives, not the whole cake, and besides, this is the place for us to vent...

    Thanks,

    Josi

  • sage121
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi everyone reading,

    Hello Josi! Glad you are still here, good to hear from you! :) I was away for a few days visiting friends. Hard to know what to post, I struggle with that too. I think we are all looking for feedback, advice, and maybe a new view on our own situation, something we have never thought of before. That is what I am looking for anyways, and have found. I hope my experience can help others, even in some small way. I appreciate honest opinions and feedback, even though they may not always be completely applicable to 'me', since nobody knows all the details of my life.

    I was in a bad relationship too, an alchoholic who was abusive. Funny how that happens, as that is how my father was. You always hear about how we repeat our parents patterns, but never think it will happen to you. Same thing, people always had great things to say about him, and when I was unhappy with the relationship. I felt guilty and I blamed myself. Same thing as my parents did to me, blamed me, made me feel flawed. We did love eachother, but I realized after the fact that we did not share the same core values, and simply did not get along on a day to day basis. I didn't like his family, and they didn't like me. Why stay with someone when your co-existence is not happy? I don't know why I stayed. But I stayed and stayed and stayed. Hoping it would get better. Yes, I tried to change him. I had fears of leaving, being alone, didn't feel anyone else would ever love me. It ended horribly. But leaving him was the best thing I ever did. I remember the day I left, it was like the weight of the world was lifted off my shoulders. My self esteem was very low, I felt ugly. But I made some big changes in my life at that time. And as you described so well, I created the person I wanted to be, the 'real' me.

    My marriage right now is a stark contrast to my former relationship as well, the two could not be more different! While I feel lucky, I also feel that the changes I made in my life after leaving my ex were very positive on many levels, which allowed me to meet someone as wonderful as my husband.

    You said: "But I had finally gotten to the point where I could see that clearly, I got nothing good out of the marriage. I catered to all his emotional needs as well as acted like some sort of caregiver-slash-personal assistant, yet he was completely removed from my life, my friends, my feelings. So I starting to think, you know, good riddance. I have nothing to lose." Well said Josi, I can relate to those feelings. You get to a point where there is nothing to lose - and only something to gain. I feel the same way with the relationship with my parents, it had gotten to the point where there was just no common ground. And the worst part of it was, I didn't feel my parents wanted to try to find any common ground. They maintained their staunch 'I am right-you are wrong' attitude no matter how much I spilled my guts, and tried to get through to them. I just wanted them to say 'I care'. That never happened.

    You said: "...I had a close friend, actually an ex-boyfriend who honestly told me that things around me wouldn't change unless I changed myself." So very true, it took me what seems like forever to really believe this. We have to take responsibility for our own lives. Whether it is the relationship with our parents, our spouse or our friends. We are in control of how we feel and we dictate how others treat us. We are not victims of circumstance.

    "If I didn't like to be perceived a certain way, I had to quit presenting myself that way, because that wasn't the real me." Well said, again!

    My mother likes to maintain the greeting card relationship with me, that was the biggest part of our relationship from many many years. It was the minimal contact, and I was OK with that for a long time. I think that may have ended now. Or maybe not. We'll see. I want it to end. Although she did send my husband a birthday card a couple months ago. I know what you mean by hanging onto any shred of hope though. I used to do that too and when I was in a place of 'minimal contact' with them, I found myself in more turmoil then, than I do right now - which is without any contact at all since January. But it is a very personal decision that only you can make when the time is right.

    Josi, I think it was Dave who said this awhile ago.....you don't have to decide right now what you are going to do, or where your relationship will end up with your parents. Perhaps you will become completely estranged, or maybe slowly reconcile. I know how conflicting the feelings are though, it is not easy. Go with what feels right for you.

    Congratulations on your new house! That is very exciting. I think it is natural to want to share big events like that with your parents, I know I did that myself for many years, but was often just disappointed with their reactions. I feel now, in hindsight, that they didn't really want me to be happy and successful for some reason. They were not really what I would call successful or happy themselves, so maybe that had something to do with it. Nothing ever really impressed them, and they were always so judgemental, nothing was ever quite good enough.

    What they think, and their opinions do not matter at the present moment. What matters is what you think, and what your friends and family who love and support you and your husband think. And what I have found is that those who truly do love us, support us with things that make us happy and that we consider accomplishments. Easier said than done, and I don't say this 'off the cuff'. It is something I am working hard on doing myself and it has not been easy. I find myself slipping into thoughts about worrying what my parents are saying to others about me now that I have cut off contact with them. I don't know why I care, but I do. I just know my mother has a way of twisting things that is so frustrating. My whole life I have always felt on the defensive with her, explaining myself. It is a relief to not do that anymore.

    Thanks for posting Josi, you have alot of good thoughts to share which I always find inspiring. Hang in there with your parents, I hope you will find some peace-of-mind with the situation, I know it is not an easy situation.

    Sage

  • sage121
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello everyone reading,

    Father's Day today, and the first time that I have not gone through the motions of sending a greeting card to my father. It seems to be a somewhat common thread that most of our father's were not a very big part of our lives. I get the sense that alot of our father's were somewhat aloof. My mother did most of the talking, and my dad said very little to me. I remember him being loud, outspoken and arrogant with his friends though, the life of the party! He was a drunk until I was in my early teens when he quit drinking. Proceeded to replace his alcohol habit with perscription drugs. Seemed that was more acceptable..or maybe easier to hide?

    I can remember numerous times when he would stay out drinking with his friends when it was my birthday, Xmas, heck, even on Father's Day some years! I remember as a kid anxiously waiting with the gift I had made for him at school, so excited to give it to him - only to get that sick and sour feeling in my stomach as the hours passed, and he didn't come home. What a jerk. Who does that?

    Anyways, since I never really felt like I knew my dad, this day is not as hard for me as Mother's Day is. It is my mother whom I was in contact with over the years, she spoke on behalf of both of them, and sent cards/gifts on behalf of both of them.

    My father did not want my love when I was a kid, he chose his fun friends and parties over what I can only imagine what he must have viewed as the boring family life. He made his own priorities. So how on earth could I be expected to show him love now? Just out of obligation? My father made his own decisions in his life, and I am making mine. Me estranging myself from him right now is no different than him disregarding me and letting me down when I was a kid. I have been told that I should take the 'high road' and maintain contact with him, no matter what he did. I tried that, thinking they would acknowledge their own mistakes, as I have acknowledged mine. But they did not. If they would even utter a simple 'sorry' that might have made a difference. They adamently stand by the fact that I had a wonderful childhood and they did ''the best they could''. I don't buy it.

    I feel relief. I am not worrying about what they are thinking or saying, not dreading the times I would have to see them, the long period of time after I saw them that it took me to stop being upset about what they said to me, not cringing when I open my email and there was an email from my mother full of gossip and meaningles chatter, and not stressing over all the holidays that I felt obligated to acknowledge and send them cards/gifts even though I did not honestly feel the sentiments that I sent to them. No more. Time for me to be real. I am caring about myself for a change, and caring about how I allow other people to treat me.

    Venting venting venting. Thanks for listening. Hope everyone is doing well!

    Sage

  • josi
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, I got a pass this weekend because my father's in Brazil and Father's day there is in August. Yeah, father's day is not so hard, but still hard. Only recently I became angry with my dad. All my life I had this faint notion that he was an ally, because he would always commiserate with me about how irrational my mother was, but in the last few years is like she completely won him over. Now he defends her, maybe because he's getting old and afraid of being alone. Now I get angry at him too, for agreeing with her crazy arguments and accusations against me, and especially angry at him for not standing up for me when I was a child. Yeah, it was helpful to have someone secretly tell me I'm not crazy, but it would have been much better for his child if he did not permit my mother to abuse us.

    Anyway, I feel like I'm always in need to remind myself of the reasons I decided to stay away. My ex-husband was always reminding me that all they want is love, all they want is to be part of my life and I get sucked into that guilt sometimes. Are they really that bad? Aren't we all misunderstood? What kind of cruel daughter am I? They always seemed so happy when my ex-husband tried to patch things up and treated them like little children, and even apologized for doing nothing wrong, and as long as he was baby-sitting them, they were so content. But only until she couldn't have her way about something. Then they were unhappy and throwing tantrums again. I remind myself that whenever I tried to share my life with them, they weren't happy. They always seemed unsatisfied, no matter how hard I tried to please them. If I tried to show them a good time, or give them nice things, or have a comfortable place for them to stay, I was being stuck up and forgetting where I came from. (Mind you, they are constantly talking about how much money they have and spend.) If I do something well, my mom takes it as an invitation for competition. They never seem to be happy for me.

    Sometimes I ask myself if I really belong here, if maybe I'm not just being a coward. I can't really say that I've tried everything I can do and had all the conversations that needed to be initiated, but I can say I honestly believe there's no way it would lead anywhere. I never felt like we could communicate on the smallest issues without my mother turning hysterical. I came to the conclusion that I would initiate such conversations if that would lead to ANYTHING good, even if they were to hate me forever but to at least change their behavior and maybe have a chance of being happier in the future. But I never saw it happening.

    Plus I'm scared as hell of my mother. It's almost an irrational fear, but is still there. I've written myself a list of all the bad things that they did the last time they were visiting (for three weeks!) All the snarky comments, all the criticism, all the inappropriate and rude behavior. I wrote the list so I wouldn't forget. I wrote the list so I could remind myself to stay away in those moments when I felt like caving in. But I am so full of fear that I don't even have the guts to read the list. I'm afraid I will get consumed by anger. I'm afraid of reliving all that hurt. How crazy it is that I can't even read my own notes about it?

    They have written horrible things to me over the years, only to later pretend it never happened, and I always read them once and them threw it away as soon as I was done because I didn't want to have to think about it anymore. I thought I didn't deserve to read those words more than once. I always told myself they didn't mean it, that they only wrote it because they were angry. (That's the excuse of battered women) Sometimes I wish I had saved them, but if I am afraid of reading my own list, I would definitively not read their own hurtful words.

    I appreciate, Sage, you telling me that I don't have to decide now on what to do about the future. I am a newlywed, and we think of possibly having children. And I always torture myself over what to do about it with respect to my parents, and my husband says the same thing: No need to decide now. Wait and see how I feel then. And I often worry if my lack of a strong desire to be a mother isn't a direct result of trying to avoid this decision or just dreading the inevitable. I wonder if I maybe am cheating myself out of the joy of motherhood, the joy of seeing my husband become a father because I don't want to deal with guilt over not telling my parents about their grandkids. I know I could be a good mother. People tell me so. Yet I feel some aversion to the whole thing.

    I am getting really upset. Maybe I'll just go ahead and read that damn list! If I get angry, angry feels better than upset...

    Josi

  • flowergardenmuse
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Helo Everyone,

    I haven't been posting much lately--too much going on. I didn't much think about Father's Day. It's hard not to think about it with the deluge of advertising. I don't know if my husband called his father or not either. I never asked and he did reveal. I only thought of my family briefly as I was going through some pictures that I have stashed away.

    Josi says, "Now I get angry at him too, for agreeing with her crazy arguments and accusations against me, and especially angry at him for not standing up for me when I was a child. Yeah, it was helpful to have someone secretly tell me I'm not crazy, but it would have been much better for his child if he did not permit my mother to abuse us." I can relate to some of what you say here and see echo's of my own situation, although in reverse. I was angry with my mother for not protecting us or standing up for me as a child to my father or my sisters. I see in my husband many behaviors that are similar to my mother--that he will not stand up for me or set the record straight when it comes to his own family and associations. In that situation I stand up for him and always have.

    Josi says, "My ex-husband was always reminding me that all they want is love, all they want is to be part of my life and I get sucked into that guilt sometimes. Are they really that bad? Aren't we all misunderstood? What kind of cruel daughter am I? They always seemed so happy when my ex-husband tried to patch things up and treated them like little children, and even apologized for doing nothing wrong..." But only until she couldn't have her way about something. Then they were unhappy and throwing tantrums again." I can often get sucked into the "guilt" as well, especially with my mother. When it came to my husband and his family and association he was good at this as well. He would make excuses for their behaviors, which made it always sounds like he was being understanding and empathetic. I see it much differently--it was more a cover-up for enabling and conflict-avoidant. He wanted peace at any price, or he wanted me to take the hit for him and have everone finger and blame me, or be angry at me. This is one reason why I had such a hard time breaking off and away from toxic people, because it got twisted around into how I wasn't being understanding, or somehow I was being cruel.

    At one time I didn't have a hard time cutting people out of my life if I discerned that they were toxic. After a long time of my family and my husband always pounding on me labeling and judging me that I was the problem, it became more of an issue for me. I started to struggle and doubt myself and had greater difficulty holding on to my own truth and being strong in that. I felt continuously misunderstood.

    "If I do something well, my mom takes it as an invitation for competition. They never seem to be happy for me."

    Josi says, "I can't really say that I've tried everything I can do and had all the conversations that needed to be initiated, but I can say I honestly believe there's no way it would lead anywhere." I can relate to what you said here as well. I believe I did try, but after a time realized that there is only so much a person can do. I've been avoiding her now, until I feel more physically and emotionally strong. My mother was always in her own world and she would just dismiss whatever I say anyway and what kind of relationship can one build around that type of behavior. I just don't see it.

    I just started to keep their correspondences, because I got tired of listening to emotionally abusive comments and criticism, only to have them ignore it and pretend or twist it all around. My husband's family is the same--they say and behave in thoughtless selfish ways and then pretend that it never happened. I thought that if I corresponded to them, then they wouldn't be able to twist my words...that is why I've saved my correspondences. But they don't write with the same sort of cruelty that they demonstrate when they are freer to talk on the phone.

    Sorry to hear that you went through all the josi...I do know that angry feels better than upset...I'm still in that stage. I was always all about sadness and grief, but I don't think I felt enough of the anger to really let that go. I have more work to do on that....

    That's all for now..

    Flower

  • sage121
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Josi, Flower,

    Yes, Father's Day is still hard, I am starting to realize it always will be a sad day - but it doesn't have to be a day I dread. It may or may not get easier in time, who knows.

    My Dad is pretty much submissive to my mother. I always viewed my dad as somewhat of a coward. He never speaks his own mind, he hides and lets my mother handle everything. What kind of person does that? He must have been so self absorbed that he could not bring himself to see that he had a daughter who really needed him, needed his approval, love and care. He was only worried about himself and his needs.

    I feel betrayed by my dad. And the fact that as he got older, after he stopped drinking and settled down, it seemed he just expected me to suddenly forget the past, respect him, and be there for him - even though he was never there for me. That didn't matter. Once again, all about HIM. It is selfish of him. This sense of entitlement makes me angry and I feel completely violated by it.

    Josi, you said: "They always seemed unsatisfied, no matter how hard I tried to please them. If I tried to show them a good time, or give them nice things, or have a comfortable place for them to stay, I was being stuck up and forgetting where I came from. (Mind you, they are constantly talking about how much money they have and spend.) If I do something well, my mom takes it as an invitation for competition. They never seem to be happy for me." I can relate to what you say, my mother is the same way. Nothing was ever good enough. If I would share something I accomplished, she would have a story to counteract it, something 'better' that my brother or cousins did. Why not just be happy for me? Why not? I went through this over and over. Yet I always just sucked it up, and moved on. Yet I continued to always have the urge to share life changing moments with them like graduation, job promotions, purchasing a house. From what I have read, it is common for narcissistic parents to behave this way.

    Josi said: "They have written horrible things to me over the years, only to later pretend it never happened, and I always read them once and them threw it away as soon as I was done because I didn't want to have to think about it anymore." You don't deserve that kind of treatment. It is so uncomfortable, and so frustrating. My parents did the same thing. It is much more hurtful when the issues are not addressed and everyone just pretends everything is OK.

    Josi said: "...they only wrote it because they were angry. (That's the excuse of battered women)." Very true, good point. It is abusive to be treated as you describe. I am very tired of re-living the past myself and re-hashing what has happened, and what they said. I am trying to not go there anymore, not expending my good energy on 'them' because it is a waste. It serves no purpose now. At one point, I felt it was serving a purpose. Because I was tolerating them because I was obligated to because they were my parents, I was being patient, had alot of hope that eventually, things would turn around and we would have this wonderful relationship I envisioned and desparately wanted. This 'fantasy' I held (and I realize now it was little more than a fantasy) never came to be. I still feel like I failed. I keep reminding myself that I can't change what or how they think. It is up to them and they were perfectly happy believing I had no reason to be upset, and did not think they had ever done anything wrong. How could they be so stubborn, aloof and insensitive?

    Josi, I can't really relate in regards to children. I chose not to have children when I was very young, and my husband had also made that decision before we even met. It didn't have anything to do with my parents. My parents always viewed me as some kind of freak for not wanting children though. They thought it was so unnatural, and they were disappointed. But then again, they have judged me for nearly everything I did - or didn't do! They are very narrow minded and anything that is not what they consider 'the norm', to them is just wrong. All I can say is that you must go with your own gut feeling with what YOU want out of life. Please don't let them take that away from you, they have already caused enough hurt.

    Josi, It is not crazy that you are avoiding reading your list, it is understandable, the connection to our 'parents' runs so deep, and it is very hurtful, something you want to avoid - I can relate to that. I think it would be a good idea to read the list. Face the feelings head on, just sit with them and let the feelings happen. Anger, sorrow, whatever comes up. This is something my therapist said to me and it really hit home and helps me when I do start thinking about my parents.

    Flower, The Father's Day advertising, and advertising around other occasions too, is what gets to me the most. We have decided that we need to get out to the mountains for a hike, or a road trip, or anything, just to keep busy and turn the day into something positive. I don't want to dread the day and cry anymore.

    Josi said, "I can't really say that I've tried everything I can do and had all the conversations that needed to be initiated, but I can say I honestly believe there's no way it would lead anywhere." Flower said: "I can relate to what you said here as well. I believe I did try, but after a time realized that there is only so much a person can do." I really struggle with this too. I feel that I did try. I still struggle with the feeling that I tried, and failed miserably. But when I think of it logically - I know that I tried, for years and years, and nothing ever changed, not even a little bit. There just came a time when the pain got too great, I had to make changes to save myself, because I was tired of feeling so much hurt and anger towards them.
    Sage

  • josi
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for the feedback, Sage. It's comforting that we, even coming from very different backgrounds, probably, have so many things in common. It shows we're not crazy. It shows a pattern. I think it's very sad that the fact that we can't fix the relationship leaves us feeling like failures. I've been trying to convince myself that even though I did not do everything possible, I did everything I could within my strength. There's other things I can think of trying, but I don't feel strong enough to do it. You're right, whatever I did do, did not change a thing. Maybe even made them more defensive.

    I actually read that list after I posted, I it was very hard, but good. I did get angry, but I was so hurt that I started shaking and crying. Mind you I'm not talking about any single thing that is so terrible. Every one of those items were things that other people would look at and just shrug and let it roll off their backs. Well, try doing it for 30 years. I come to expect nothing good.

    My mother has been visiting my Orkut page, which is a version of Facebook done by Google, and the page actually tells you who's been visiting you in the last week or month. I only log in there once every couple of weeks, but my mother is always at the top of the list of recent visitors. It makes me feel so bad that she's thinking about me and probably suffering, but I can't bring myself to contact her.

    Yesterday she called my cell phone. I recognize the international dialing codes, and it was a call from their home. I immediately went into panic mode, with that deep pain in my belly, and waited anxiously for a voice message that would say that one of them is dead. I guess that is my biggest fear. I will come; I dread it; yet have no idea what I will do or how I will feel. I don't have siblings, so whatever I decide will have greater weight.

    But there was no message. I guess it was just her getting all impulsive and saying, "the heck with it," and calling me anyway. But I think if she doesn't recognize that her behavior is the reason I'm staying away, if she doesn't recognize that she hurts me, I can't bring myself to have contact with her. I need an apology to at least consider talking to her again, and I don't think an apology is coming. If she was sorry, she would have left a message, she would have written an email.

    On another note, I'm glad you were able to draw from your experiences and get out of an abusive relationship. Some good has to come from all this awareness.

    Happy Fourth everyone. I will be lining cabinets and moving boxes all weekend long.

    Josi

  • sage121
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi there Josi,
    You are welcome, I am glad I could help. It helps to relate to those in the same situation. Yes, I know, I felt for many years like it was 'me'. Because that is what I was always told. That I was too sensitive, over reacting, being dramatic etc. There is a pattern with their behaviour, and I find some comfort in that fact. Good relationships take the participation of 2 sides and I feel my parents just want me to overlook everything and pretend everyting is OK. That is what is easiest for them. I still have thoughts of what I could have/should have done to fix the relationship with them. But as time goes on, I realize that anything I did was never enough. I found that anytime I did try to reach out, humbled myself, really tried to speak to them about my feelings about the past that they got more and more defensive, would throw accusations at me, and became colder. Strange, frustrating. It was hurtful and humiliating for me. I felt like I opened myself up, put my feelings out there - only for them to be trampled. My parents are not the touchy/feely/emotional type of people. And I did not come across that way to them, I did not demand that they be that way. I was very to the point about it, and chose my words carefully. I was not combative about it. But they just simply won't face up to it. How hard is it to simply say - "I am sorry"? I am not making any of this up, the know what the situation was, after all...they were there.

    I am glad you read that list of yours, I think it is a healthy thing to do. Let the emotions out. I know what you mean, some things do seem trivial, but small things can be very hurtful too. I feel that way when I talk about how my brother was favoured over me. Little things, like the shopping trips my mother would take him on, buying super expensive designer clothes (which they could not by any stretch of the imagination afford to buy!!!). And his non-appreciation of the fact he was so spoiled in that way. I resent it to this day. It feels so trivial to me even as I type this. But these little things represent something bigger, the deep emotions attached to them.

    Seems your mother is similar to mine. My mother takes solace in sending greeting cards. She did this for years and years - even when we had not talked for many months. Her way of contacting me, keeping in touch, and I guess prooving to herself that as my mother, she cares on some level. This seems like what your mother is doing via Facebook type sites, and the phone calls.

    Too bad my mother could never bring herself to vocalize that she cares, or to respond to my attempts to reach out to her. I think it would have made a difference if she did show me she did care about how I felt. She just shuts down and puts her head in the sand, and blames me for causing trouble. I have had people suggest to me that maybe she is incapable of love. I don't buy that....we are all humans, with the capacity to give and receive love...it is a choice. At least that is what I believe. My mother chooses to believe that I am horrible, and she did nothing at all wrong. She chooses to not talk about it with me, because it is not easy for her. Rather, she attacks, brushes me off, accuses me of causing trouble, and then carries on like nothing has happened. I can only assume now that she thinks it is worth it to not have contact with me, in order for her to not face up to anything from the past. To me her actions have shown that she is selfish, cowardly and heartless.

    I have thought alot about what will happen when my parents die, and this was discussed here before. Dave said something that really hit home for me, he said that you don't have to think of that now, or make any decisions about what will transpire at that time. When it actually happens - that is when you will decide what you will do. I know for me personally, if it happened today, I would not go back. But when that time comes, I may change my mind. I will go with my gut feeling at that time. This has given me alot of peace of mind to think of it in that context.

    I truly understand what you mean about needing an apology. I have gone over this with a therapist. I have admitted and apologized for some things I have done and said. My mother, or father, have never ever even admitted anything they did has hurt me or affected me negatively in any way. Never. It is too late now, so much time has passed, and I am just letting go of that 'fantasy' of getting an apology from them. They decided it was not something that was necessary or warrented, as they don't see what they have ever done wrong. The bottom line for me anyways is that deep down my parents do know what they did, they do know what they did hurt me, they know it affected me as a kid, and as a teenager, and even into my adult life. They know they are wrong not only in what they did, but in how they brushed me off as an adult trying to reach out to them.
    I am being a little long winded once again! Thanks for listening. We have some exciting things happening in our world here, and I miss not having parents to talk to them about, to tell them all that is going on. I hope it does not get to this point in your situation Josi, I truly would not wish this on anyone. While it is good to relate to people in similar situations, at the same time, I hope that their relationships with their parents might eventually turn out to be better than mine has ended up. That being said, I am moving forward, life is good, I am happier than I have been in a long time. The past 6 months has been one of the most difficult periods of my life.

    Yes, alot of good comes out of simple awareness!! :) Hope you had a wonderful weekend moving into your new place! Exciting!! I am getting ready to go on holidays, so I will be away for awhile, but will check back in in a few weeks. Take care of yourself, enjoy settling into your new house!!

    Sage

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